/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2013-06-28 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Jun 28 00:00:00 2013
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  6. # [00:01] <Hixie_> zcorpan: (btw if you want scripts allowed everywhere, it'll be trivial to make that happen once i've done all this work -- just make template and script have a new category, and replace "template" with that category everywhere in the content models. file a bug if you want that.)
  7. # [00:03] <zcorpan> Hixie_: ok
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  10. # [00:05] <zcorpan> done
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  18. # [00:15] <annevk> Hixie_: you want something similar to transparent I guess, it's valid (almost?) anywhere so just ignore it for the purposes of the content model of the parent
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  37. # [00:52] <Hixie_> so it was brought to my attention that actually you might well want any random content model
  38. # [00:52] <Hixie_> e.g. <ol><template>Hello</template></ol> might be used by a script to stamp out <li>s which it then fills with the template.
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  40. # [00:55] <annevk> yeah, I think <template> is basically anywhere and anything
  41. # [00:55] <zcorpan> <ol><template><td>hello</template></ol> ?
  42. # [00:55] <TabAtkins> annevk: Yeah, our argument was that, at least for normal <template>, let it be anything, because you dont' know what it'll be used for. When you mix in MDV and <template iterate>/etc, you can do content checking, because you have declarative knowledge of what it'll be used for.
  43. # [00:56] <zewt> i've done that sort of thing with <tr>'s with manual templating for table entries, recall it being sort of annoying
  44. # [00:56] <TabAtkins> zcorpan: Nearly that exact example was used in our convo. ^_^
  45. # [00:58] <Hixie_> anyone have a link to rafaelw's mdv spec, if such a thing exists? (not sure i know what i'm asking)
  46. # [00:59] <rafaelw> mdv? what's that?
  47. # [00:59] <rafaelw> ;-)
  48. # [00:59] <rafaelw> There isn't a current "spec"
  49. # [00:59] <rafaelw> The spec is the code
  50. # [00:59] <zcorpan> btw tomorrow is my last day before several weeks of vacation, so if there's something i should fix tomorrow, lemme know :-)
  51. # [00:59] <rafaelw> The design has evolved to the point that it is conceptually two additional primitives.
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  53. # [00:59] <Hixie_> zcorpan: yeah, what if they are going to stamp an <li><table>...<tr><th>... and then append the template
  54. # [00:59] <rafaelw> I'm planning to "spec" those (probably hand-wavy) to see if I can get anyone interested again.
  55. # [01:00] <rafaelw> Anything in particular you are curious about?
  56. # [01:00] <Hixie_> rafaelw: the context is i'm trying to work out if there's a context in which more detailed content models (ways to catch authoring mistakes) would help
  57. # [01:00] <Hixie_> rafaelw: so mostly i'm curious about what hte markup looks like
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  60. # [01:01] <rafaelw> i see. then, yeah, there are some examples here: https://github.com/Polymer/mdv/tree/stable/examples/how_to
  61. # [01:01] <Hixie_> thanks
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  63. # [01:02] <Hixie_> TabAtkins: fffffffffuuuuuuuuuu, <table> content model is even more insane to add <template> to arbitrarily
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  65. # [01:03] <TabAtkins> Hixie_: Hahaha! Mine is an evil laugh!
  66. # [01:03] <Hixie_> seriously wtf, i don't even
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  68. # [01:03] * Hixie_ finds a hack
  69. # [01:04] <Hixie_> ", optionally with one or more <code>template</code> elements between any of the other elements"
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  72. # [01:08] <zcorpan> should https://github.com/Polymer/mdv/blob/stable/examples/how_to/conditional_template.html be valid?
  73. # [01:09] <gsnedders> TabAtkins: What are you trying to do!?
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  75. # [01:09] <gsnedders> TabAtkins: Trying to stop html5lib from putting foreign elements in a namespace?
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  77. # [01:10] <zcorpan> seems like it shouldn't be using <ul>
  78. # [01:10] <gsnedders> TabAtkins: I don't see anything weird in that spec?
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  80. # [01:10] <gsnedders> TabAtkins: Give me better bug reports, damn it! :P
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  82. # [01:11] <TabAtkins> gsnedders: Basically, yeah. ^_^ I fixed it by using html5lib's serializer, which I didn't realize was even available. I was using lxml's serializer before.
  83. # [01:12] <TabAtkins> Which only serializes as xhtml, and so puts the namespaces stuff on <svg>.
  84. # [01:12] <annevk> Hixie_: sounds like MikeSmith is gonna love you
  85. # [01:14] <gsnedders> TabAtkins: Well, duh. lxml's serializer outputs XML. (Or does it have an HTML serializer?)
  86. # [01:14] <gsnedders> TabAtkins: html5lib's serializer doesn't really work for foreign content, but does most of the time. Breaks when you have namespaced attributes on foreign content, I believe.
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  88. # [01:18] <TabAtkins> gsnedders: Well, I kind of expect that "html.tostring()" would output html. ^_^
  89. # [01:19] <TabAtkins> Luckily I don't care about namespaces stuff in foreign content. I just copied code from anolis.
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  91. # [01:27] <gsnedders> TabAtkins: Oh, there is an html.tostring. But yeah, that just uses libxml2's HTML stuff. Which, as know, is shit.
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  132. # [02:17] <heycam> TabAtkins, thanks, fixed the broken links
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  137. # [02:20] <TabAtkins> zcorpan: No, that example shouldn't be valid. That falls into the "we know declaratively that it'll stamp something out there" case.
  138. # [02:21] <TabAtkins> I think in those cases, the content model should just be strictly transparent?
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  265. # [08:54] <gsnedders> http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=3912831&threshold=-1&commentsort=0&mode=nested&pid=44127847 — dbaron's desk isn't a good response to that, is it? :P
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  305. # [10:17] <zcorpan> hmm, the only case-sensitive css properties are variables, right?
  306. # [10:17] <zcorpan> and they are exposed in a separate interface, so i can pretend that all properties are insensitive
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  308. # [10:21] <SimonSapin> zcorpan: yes
  309. # [10:21] <zcorpan> thanks
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  311. # [10:22] <SimonSapin> if we add anything case-sensitive in the future, it will be because it’s author-defined and thus probably in a separate interface like variables
  312. # [10:23] <zcorpan> are properties normalized to lowercase somewhere?
  313. # [10:24] * Ms2ger waves hands
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  316. # [10:29] * MikeSmith wonders if Ms2ger is waving his own hands, or somebody else's hands
  317. # [10:29] <Ms2ger> MikeSmith, yours
  318. # [10:30] <MikeSmith> damn that's where they went
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  341. # [11:37] <annevk> FWIW, I started patching https://github.com/annevk/url again
  342. # [11:38] <annevk> I hope to get a bit further this time around and work on the test suite through my own JavaScript implementation of the specification. I realize that makes me the single point of failure for three pieces that really ought to be done by separate people, but nobody else seems to care about fixing URLs... Which is surprising in my mind, but I'm sure there's a reasonable explanation.
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  344. # [11:39] <annevk> The other goal, as mentioned already, is to make parsing idempotent. That we lost that property is bad and we should claim it back.
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  369. # [13:39] <matjas> annevk++
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  377. # [13:54] <SimonSapin> zcorpan: implementations probably normalize to lower-case at some point, but not sure what you mean
  378. # [13:55] <zcorpan> SimonSapin: i mean in the specs, if i can assume that they are lowercase for the purpose of CSSOM
  379. # [13:56] <SimonSapin> I seem to recall "If there is a property that is a ASCII case-insensitive match for the parameter, …" text in CSSOM
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  381. # [13:58] <zcorpan> yeah, i've just changed it to fold to lowercase and do a case-sensitive compare. i added "A supported CSS property must be in its lowercase form for the purpose of comparisons this specification."
  382. # [13:59] <zcorpan> seems like a saner model to store them in lowercase
  383. # [13:59] <Ms2ger> Or as an enum
  384. # [14:00] <SimonSapin> implementation can do string interning or something, the spec shouldn’t have to be aware of that
  385. # [14:00] <zcorpan> sure, i mean model for the spec
  386. # [14:01] <zcorpan> either the spec preserves case in its "declarations" and does case-insensitive compares last minute, or it folds stuff to lowercase at the start and does case-sensitive comparisons
  387. # [14:01] <zcorpan> i prefer the latter
  388. # [14:02] <SimonSapin> you still need to fold parameters to the various methods
  389. # [14:02] <zcorpan> yep
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  425. # [16:09] <SimonSapin> what does the html5lib serializer do with attribute order?
  426. # [16:10] <SimonSapin> I’m getting a huge diff in the generated version of css-syntax because I get a different attribute order than TabAtkins
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  430. # [16:28] <zcorpan> i think that might have changed relatively recently in html5lib
  431. # [16:28] <zcorpan> so make sure you have the same version, i guess
  432. # [16:29] <SimonSapin> I hope it’s deterministic, within a html5lib version
  433. # [16:29] <zcorpan> probably is
  434. # [16:30] <zcorpan> though i haven't looked at the code, but i've never noticed them changing for me :-)
  435. # [16:30] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: are you using 1.0b2 for what’s is the CSSWG repo?
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  443. # [16:52] <GPHemsley> SimonSapin: Attribute order in html5lib is a recent issue that we had with anolis. Basically, if the tree builder doesn't maintain attribute order, it's non-deterministic. (gsnedders could probably explain more.)
  444. # [16:53] <SimonSapin> GPHemsley: Tab’s processor is using lxml I think
  445. # [16:54] <SimonSapin> couldn’t we sort on output?
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  452. # [17:03] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
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  454. # [17:06] <gsnedders> SimonSapin: It's whatever order the tree API stores it in, basically. Which in lxml's case is explicitly undefined.
  455. # [17:06] <gsnedders> SimonSapin: So there's no guarantee of stability.
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  457. # [17:07] <SimonSapin> that sucks
  458. # [17:07] <gsnedders> SimonSapin: There's a alphabetical_attributes=True|False option on the serializer which will reorder all attributes into alphabetical order
  459. # [17:07] <SimonSapin> ah, I guess that’s what I want
  460. # [17:07] <SimonSapin> what does anolis do?
  461. # [17:07] <gsnedders> SimonSapin: We can't blindingly reorder it, otherwise people who want things to roundtrip without changing order, using a tree API that preserves order, are screwed over by us reordering it.
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  463. # [17:08] <SimonSapin> yeah, I understand why it’s not the default
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  465. # [17:08] <gsnedders> Blame fantasai for screaming at me to change it for years. :P
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  468. # [17:09] <gsnedders> But yeah, we're now as deterministic as the underlying storage. Which makes sense, really.
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  470. # [17:11] <SimonSapin> so what tree builders preserve the order?
  471. # [17:12] <gsnedders> lxml does currently, although it's explicitly defined as being undefined.
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  473. # [17:12] <SimonSapin> ew
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  475. # [17:12] <gsnedders> Blame fantasai.
  476. # [17:12] <gsnedders> Her fault.
  477. # [17:12] <SimonSapin> for lxml?
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  479. # [17:13] <gsnedders> No, for wanting the behaviour in html5lib despite the underlying behaviour being undefined
  480. # [17:13] <SimonSapin> the alternative being always sorting?
  481. # [17:13] <gsnedders> Ja.
  482. # [17:13] <SimonSapin> ok
  483. # [17:14] <gsnedders> This is what we previously did
  484. # [17:14] <SimonSapin> if the option to sort is still there, that’s fine
  485. # [17:14] <SimonSapin> I’m ranting at lxml
  486. # [17:14] <gsnedders> I think the problem for Stefan is that libxml2 has it as undefined, so he can't guarantee anything that doesn't.
  487. # [17:14] <SimonSapin> so I’m ranting at libxml2
  488. # [17:15] <gsnedders> Eventually we'll find out where you're really ranting :P
  489. # [17:15] <SimonSapin> hehe
  490. # [17:17] * Ms2ger wants a useful tree api in python at some point
  491. # [17:17] <SimonSapin> Ms2ger: define useful
  492. # [17:18] <Ms2ger> One that preserves order for attributes and doesn't do .tail, say
  493. # [17:18] <SimonSapin> I’m considering making a new tree api for cssselect (or its successor)
  494. # [17:18] <SimonSapin> so text nodes instead?
  495. # [17:19] <Ms2ger> Yeah
  496. # [17:19] <SimonSapin> why?
  497. # [17:19] <Ms2ger> Say you have <a>x<b>y</b>z</a>
  498. # [17:19] <Ms2ger> How do you remove the b element?
  499. # [17:20] <SimonSapin> you have to append b.tail to a.text, which is annoying
  500. # [17:20] <Ms2ger> Right
  501. # [17:20] <Ms2ger> And how do you do it if a.text is None?
  502. # [17:21] <SimonSapin> more annoyance
  503. # [17:21] <SimonSapin> although (a.text or '') is not so bad
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  535. # [18:44] <TabAtkins> SimonSapin: No, I'm using 0.95, because that's what version it was on when I last pulled.
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  539. # [18:45] <TabAtkins> SimonSapin: I'm fine with doing alphabetical_attributes if that's supported on my version, too.
  540. # [18:46] <TabAtkins> SimonSapin: Also, I'd appreciate a new tree API that doesn't require me to fuck around with .tail.
  541. # [18:47] <TabAtkins> I understand the reasons for lxml's design, but that doesn't make it any less annoying for editing HTML.
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  546. # [18:53] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: do you want to stay on 0.95? lxml’s undefined-but-happens-to-preserve-order with html5lib 1.0 is probably good enough
  547. # [18:53] <TabAtkins> SimonSapin: Assuming that alphabetic_attributes works in .95, I don't see why we shouldn't just impose a deterministic ordering on attributes.
  548. # [18:54] <SimonSapin> I only care about getting the same output on different systems with the same input
  549. # [18:54] <TabAtkins> Right.
  550. # [18:55] <SimonSapin> why stay with 0.95, though ?
  551. # [18:55] <TabAtkins> Because that means I don't have to try and figure out why pip upgrade was failing?
  552. # [18:55] <SimonSapin> oh :p
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  554. # [19:03] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: just use sudo it’ll be fine ;)
  555. # [19:03] <TabAtkins> ...yeah, that was probably my issue.
  556. # [19:03] <SimonSapin> actually
  557. # [19:03] <SimonSapin> sudo pip uninstall stuff
  558. # [19:03] <SimonSapin> then pip install --user
  559. # [19:04] <SimonSapin> should be saner
  560. # [19:05] <TabAtkins> Cool, done.
  561. # [19:05] <TabAtkins> Where did this get dropped into?
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  563. # [19:06] <SimonSapin> ~/.local
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  567. # [19:08] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: ok. Pull css-syntax, regenerate and see if the output changes
  568. # [19:08] <TabAtkins> It did, yes.
  569. # [19:09] <SimonSapin> :/
  570. # [19:09] <TabAtkins> All attribute order churn, yeah.
  571. # [19:09] <SimonSapin> on 1.0b2 ?
  572. # [19:09] <TabAtkins> So, I'm not seeing an alphabetical option in htmlserializer
  573. # [19:09] <TabAtkins> Yeah.
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  590. # [20:05] <TabAtkins> SimonSapin: Do you see an alphabetic attribute option in html5lib? Or is it supposed to be in lxml or something?
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  608. # [21:00] <Hixie_> ok all that remains is element definition prose, and examples
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  620. # [21:22] <annevk> Hixie_: I guess you noticed already it'll be commit 8000?
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  627. # [21:31] <Hixie_> annevk: indeed
  628. # [21:31] <Hixie_> annevk: that's one reason i'm doing it as a big checkin :-)
  629. # [21:31] <Hixie_> (lamest reason ever)
  630. # [21:31] <Hixie_> (also, not the main reason)
  631. # [21:31] <Hixie_> (but it did stop me from making a typo fix separately first)
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  633. # [21:37] <tantek> Hixie, that is pretty lame. You're not a numerologist.
  634. # [21:38] <tantek> besides, base 10? I mean c'mon. ;)
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  637. # [21:42] <TabAtkins> tantek: Back-compat forces us to use base 10.
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  652. # [22:18] <JimJibber> Anyone know why The dizzie rascal set on the stage version is blanked, but the same set is on the BBC 3 stream?
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  680. # [22:59] <Hixie_> TabAtkins: oh i have no superstitions, it's just to make it easier to remember which checkin was 8000 :-)
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  702. # [23:44] <Hixie_> hey does cloneNode() default to true or not?
  703. # [23:45] <Hixie_> spec says true, chrome seems to say false?
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  707. # [23:51] <Hixie_> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#the-template-element
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  713. # Session Close: Sat Jun 29 00:00:00 2013

The end :)