/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2013-07-08 / end

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  69. # Session Close: Mon Jul 08 07:23:22 2013
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  71. # Session Start: Mon Jul 08 07:23:22 2013
  72. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  76. # [12:06] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ & http://logbot.glob.com.au/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  77. # [12:06] * Set by smaug____!~chatzilla@GGZYYCCCXVIII.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi on Wed Mar 21 17:14:24
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  80. # [12:11] <JakeA> Remind me why NodeList inheriting from JS arrays is bad and DOMString inheriting from JS is ok
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  89. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  93. # [12:24] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ & http://logbot.glob.com.au/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  94. # [12:24] * Set by smaug____!~chatzilla@GGZYYCCCXVIII.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi on Wed Mar 21 17:14:24
  95. # [12:26] <JakeA> Ms2ger: is there proof of that?
  96. # [12:28] <Ms2ger> https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=81573
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  100. # [12:34] <JakeA> Ms2ger: exactly what I was looking for, cheers. Although ::sadface::
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  117. # [13:47] <annevk> jetlag is somewhat stronger than anticipated
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  173. # [16:14] <Ms2ger> Given a select s with an option with an empty id, what do the following return?
  174. # [16:14] <Ms2ger> s.namedItem("")
  175. # [16:14] <Ms2ger> s.options.namedItem("")
  176. # [16:14] <Ms2ger> s.options[""]
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  189. # [16:28] <jgraham> So can anyone recommend an XMPP provider?
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  193. # [16:32] <SimonSapin> jgraham: I’m using hosted.im
  194. # [16:32] <annevk> Ms2ger: are you fixing the DOM bug for me?
  195. # [16:32] <annevk> Ms2ger: 'cause that'd be great
  196. # [16:32] <Ms2ger> I wasn't :)
  197. # [16:32] <Ms2ger> But I guess I can
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  209. # [16:51] <jgraham> SimonSapin: Thanks
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  211. # [16:52] <jgraham> Ms2ger: Are you asking the same question in the form of a review request? :p
  212. # [16:54] <Ms2ger> :)
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  221. # [17:09] <Ms2ger> This is the sucky part about trying to strike things off my tests-todo-list
  222. # [17:09] <Ms2ger> Strike one off, add at least one
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  366. # [19:59] <JonathanNeal> Hello
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  368. # [20:00] <JonathanNeal> When I use em values in a @media query, should the @media query care what the font size is on html?
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  383. # [20:09] <JonathanNeal> Anything going on with element queries?
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  392. # [20:10] <galant> in the unicode character set standard it says hexadecimal code 25 is % but it is left arrow key why is this?
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  394. # [20:11] <annevk> it's not data:text/html,&%23x25;
  395. # [20:11] <annevk> JonathanNeal: it cares about the initial font-size, see the spec
  396. # [20:13] <JonathanNeal> annevk: i'm not sure it's specified, http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-mediaqueries/ http://dev.w3.org/csswg/mediaqueries4/
  397. # [20:14] <annevk> well I wrote that text
  398. # [20:14] <annevk> let me look
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  401. # [20:14] <annevk> JonathanNeal: http://w3c-test.org/csswg/mediaqueries3/#units
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  403. # [20:15] <JonathanNeal> annevk: so it's the interpretation of what "the initial value of ‘font-size’" is?
  404. # [20:15] <annevk> that's defined by CSS
  405. # [20:15] <annevk> might be implementation defined, but typically 16px
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  410. # [20:18] <JonathanNeal> annevk: right, impacted by its container.
  411. # [20:19] <annevk> no, initial value is not impacted by a container
  412. # [20:19] <JonathanNeal> div { font-size: 50%; } div > div { font-size: 1em; }
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  415. # [20:20] <JonathanNeal> but in the case of @media queries, they are not descendants of <html>, so em is basically 16px, is that right?
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  418. # [20:22] <annevk> say you do html { font-size:1.1em }
  419. # [20:22] <annevk> that depends on the initial font-size value
  420. # [20:23] <annevk> which is implementation-defined, but typically 16px
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  428. # [20:39] <JonathanNeal> annevk: right, got it
  429. # [20:39] <JonathanNeal> and rem IS based on html.
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  433. # [20:44] <annevk> Ms2ger: are you going to fix that bug or should I start investigating?
  434. # [20:44] <annevk> Ms2ger: if you could at least comment on your findings in https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=22291 ...
  435. # [20:44] <Ms2ger> Sorry, haven't looked yet
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  468. # [21:37] <TabAtkins> JonathanNeal: In MQ, em is unaffected by any properties set on the page. It's solely the initial value.
  469. # [21:37] <TabAtkins> Unlike rem, which is the value of font-size on the root element.
  470. # [21:38] <TabAtkins> The initial value of font-size is implementation defined. As Anne said, it's typically 16px, but users can change that setting in the settings of most (all?) browsers.
  471. # [21:38] <jgraham> (doing so typically breaks the web)
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  474. # [21:39] <jgraham> (but no more so then, say, disabling script, which people also do)
  475. # [21:39] <jgraham> *than
  476. # [21:39] <TabAtkins> Badly enough that a browser couldn't change their own default, yes, but not badly enough that a user can't do it.
  477. # [21:39] <TabAtkins> I use one level of zoom on lots of sites.
  478. # [21:40] <Hixie_> cabanier: pong
  479. # [21:40] <Ms2ger> Yeah, I use 14px or so
  480. # [21:41] <Ms2ger> Though I sometimes just mess with the font-size in the web console
  481. # [21:41] <darobin> 14px doesn't break the web much overall
  482. # [21:41] <Hixie_> Ms2ger: were you doing the dom side of the collections [''] bug? or were you asking for unrelated reasons?
  483. # [21:42] * TabAtkins loves Chrome's min-font-size setting. Text <10px is a dick move.
  484. # [21:42] <JonathanNeal> TabAtkins, jgraham, good to know
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  486. # [21:42] <JonathanNeal> TabAtkins: ruh roh, does that break those font-size: 0 layout containers?
  487. # [21:42] <Ms2ger> Hixie_, no, just writing a somewhat-related test
  488. # [21:42] <Hixie_> k
  489. # [21:42] <TabAtkins> Ms2ger: Probably, but I haven't noticed anything in particular yet.
  490. # [21:43] <annevk> Hixie_: I guess I might end up doing that if Ms2ger doesn't get to it
  491. # [21:43] <Ms2ger> If annevk doesn't get around to it, I probably will later this week
  492. # [21:43] <TabAtkins> So either I'm unobservant, or spend time on better sites, or it really doesn't break much.
  493. # [21:43] <annevk> Hixie_: do I need to do testing or just copy what you do?
  494. # [21:43] <Hixie_> annevk: i did some testing in the bug, more testing can't hurt though
  495. # [21:43] <darobin> TabAtkins: or the setting is smart enough to treat font-size: 0 as a special case
  496. # [21:44] <TabAtkins> darobin: No clue.
  497. # [21:44] <TabAtkins> All I know is that it works on the xkcd forums, where people use tiny text as subtext.
  498. # [21:44] <TabAtkins> And occasionally for end-of-blog-post metadata, etc.
  499. # [21:45] * darobin gets tempted to embed messages just for Tab here and there
  500. # [21:47] <jgraham> And everywhere?
  501. # [21:47] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: wait, rem is based on :root in MQs? Isn’t that a layering violation?
  502. # [21:47] <TabAtkins> No, rem is same as em *in MQs*.
  503. # [21:48] <TabAtkins> But outside of them, rem is different.
  504. # [21:48] <SimonSapin> ah, ok
  505. # [21:48] <SimonSapin> of course
  506. # [21:50] * arv_ is now known as arv
  507. # [21:52] * arv is now known as arv_
  508. # [21:52] <TabAtkins> annevk: You can't embed / in a pathsegment in any reasonable way, can you? It must be %-escaped?
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  510. # [21:52] <TabAtkins> s/reasonable way/way that keeps a literal \/ in the string/
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  515. # [21:54] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: it seems to me that ending at an unescaped / is the definition of path segment …
  516. # [21:55] <TabAtkins> SimonSapin: I meant something like a backslash escape, which still contains the escaped character (and thus defeats naive string splitting).
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  518. # [21:55] <SimonSapin> and many server-side software are not good at telling the difference anyway
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  520. # [21:56] <Hixie_> why is %-escaping not reasonable?
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  522. # [21:56] <SimonSapin> I think you’re safe with naive string splitting, if that’s what you’re getting at
  523. # [21:56] <Hixie_> also, i just found a bug in apache.
  524. # [21:57] <Hixie_> http://hixie.ch/blablabla.404 returns a 404 page, http://hixie.ch/blablabla.404%2F says it couldn't find the 404 page.
  525. # [21:57] <TabAtkins> Hixie_: I'm not trying to judge, I was just trying to ask a question before I made suggestions on Anne's url email.
  526. # [21:57] <Hixie_> (http://hixie.ch/blablabla.404/ finds a 404 page too)
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  528. # [21:57] <Hixie_> ah, e-mail
  529. # [21:58] <Hixie_> i should read some of those
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  533. # [22:01] <Hixie_> hm, having an object that can be indexed and that has a built-in toString that returns the right escaped concatenation would be interesting
  534. # [22:02] <TabAtkins> Yus.
  535. # [22:03] <TabAtkins> Though you don't want it to be just that type of object, I think. You want to be able to accept any array.
  536. # [22:03] <Hixie_> assignable to an array? yeah, that makes sense
  537. # [22:03] <TabAtkins> So that you can, say, do "pathname = url.segments.map(foo);", since that returns a plain array probably?
  538. # [22:04] <Hixie_> url.path = ['a','b'];
  539. # [22:04] <Hixie_> url.path = 'a/b';
  540. # [22:04] <Hixie_> url.path[0] == 'a';
  541. # [22:04] <TabAtkins> But yeah, having it return an array-like that does the toString behavior itself is nice.
  542. # [22:04] <Hixie_> url.path == '/a/b'
  543. # [22:04] <TabAtkins> Yeah.
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  545. # [22:05] <Hixie_> not sure how you do that in WebIDL, maybe a PutForwards to an attribute that is (Array or DOMString) or something?
  546. # [22:05] <Hixie_> where Array is DOMString[] ?
  547. # [22:05] <Hixie_> anyway. lgtm.
  548. # [22:05] * Hixie_ goes back to making the web worse by speccing navigator.plugins
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  570. # [22:26] <JonathanNeal> TabAtkins: rem is same as em in mqs?
  571. # [22:26] <TabAtkins> Yeah, it has to be.
  572. # [22:26] <JonathanNeal> http://codepen.io/jonneal/full/ArwtI ?
  573. # [22:28] <JonathanNeal> It does not appear to be exactly the same, in that link's case, if you resize the browser, it goes into a fun shock.
  574. # [22:28] <JonathanNeal> Chrome handles it the same as other recursive issues.
  575. # [22:29] <TabAtkins> JonathanNeal: It does do some weird stuff, but it definitely triggers the switch to blue at > 16px.
  576. # [22:29] <TabAtkins> Probably approximately 16px*80
  577. # [22:29] <TabAtkins> Sorry, I meant 80px in my previous line.
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  580. # [22:30] <Hixie_> 16px*80px? 1280px^2 ?
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  585. # [22:35] <TabAtkins> No, the previous previous line.
  586. # [22:35] <TabAtkins> JonathanNeal: Looks like we have a bug in Chrome. I'm filing now.
  587. # [22:35] <TabAtkins> And yeah, the weird red/blue thing is crazy.
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  596. # [22:43] <Hixie_> heycam|away: how do i make an object's supported property names _not_ be enumerable at all?
  597. # [22:43] <Hixie_> like in navigator.plugins
  598. # [22:44] <Domenic_> TabAtkins: interesting, that led me to thinking about `window.location.segments = window.location.segments.map(foo)` and how that should probably work.
  599. # [22:45] <TabAtkins> Domenic_: Yeah, it depends on whether you override the built-in Array#map or not, I think?
  600. # [22:47] <Domenic_> TabAtkins: I think the plan is for subclasses to return themselves from everything, including map? Need to check...
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  603. # [22:47] <TabAtkins> You mean, the Array built-ins returning an instance of the subclass they were inherited by?
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  605. # [22:48] <Domenic_> TabAtkins: yeah that's it. http://esdiscuss.org/topic/whydoesarrayfromalsotakeamapfn#content-9 there was a lot of confusion at the beginning of that thread though
  606. # [22:48] <Hixie_> so huh.
  607. # [22:49] <Hixie_> is there no way in WebIDL to have an object have named properties that aren't enumerated?
  608. # [22:49] <Hixie_> what if i want an object to have every property, served on demand?
  609. # [22:49] <Hixie_> so i could do spellcheck['foo'] for example
  610. # [22:49] <Hixie_> where 'foo' is any string...
  611. # [22:49] <Hixie_> (not that that would be a good api, but that's besides the point here)
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  613. # [22:49] <jgraham> If you wanted to do that we would look at you strange
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  615. # [22:50] <jgraham> Although if you use the words "for plugins", it will have the same effect as adding "in Japan" to an implausible-sounding claim
  616. # [22:50] <TabAtkins> Those types of APIs are frowned upon - they interact badly with prototypes.
  617. # [22:50] <TabAtkins> Do a [MapClass] instead.
  618. # [22:50] <TabAtkins> Though I guess you're stuck with legacy.
  619. # [22:51] <Hixie_> jgraham: thus us for navigator.plugins, does that count? :-)
  620. # [22:51] <Hixie_> 'Google Talk Plugin' in navigator.plugins => true
  621. # [22:52] <jgraham> Hixie_: Sure :) But your gambit should be "this is a strange thing I need for legacy", not "this is something a normal API might use"
  622. # [22:52] <Hixie_> for (i in navigator.plugins) { if (i == 'Google Talk Plugin') alert('bing') } => no bing
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  624. # [22:53] <Hixie_> jgraham: i was just trying to describe what i need, sorry if it sounded like i wanted it :-)
  625. # [22:53] <Hixie_> i'm just surprised this hasn't come up before
  626. # [22:53] <Hixie_> sure does look like webidl doesn't support this
  627. # [22:53] <Hixie_> i guess i'll file a bug
  628. # [22:53] <jgraham> It sounds like you just want a way of specifying an {enumerable:false} propert in webidl
  629. # [22:53] <jgraham> *property
  630. # [22:54] <Hixie_> yeah
  631. # [22:54] <Hixie_> wow, webidl has only about half as many open bugs as html
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  634. # [22:58] <annevk> So can navigator.plugins be explained in terms of JS?
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  636. # [22:59] <annevk> Hixie_: "unit of related similar-origin browsing contexts" is a useful concept, it could use a useful name
  637. # [23:00] <Hixie_> annevk: file a bug with a suggestion, if you need a convenient hook. or do what i do for some other specs, import the name as "unit of related similar-origin browsing contexts" and then say "which in this specification are referred to as Foos..."
  638. # [23:00] <JonathanNeal> TabAtkins: why is it a bug?
  639. # [23:00] <Hixie_> (just try to make the short name obviously refer to the long name, so it's not too confusing)
  640. # [23:00] <TabAtkins> JonathanNeal: Because it's a circularity issue?
  641. # [23:01] <annevk> uorsobc
  642. # [23:01] <JonathanNeal> I thought rem references the root element of the document, which is HTML.
  643. # [23:01] <TabAtkins> Also: spec violation.
  644. # [23:01] <TabAtkins> JonathanNeal: Yes, it does *in normal styles*. In a MQ, it ignores any page styling, and uses the initial font size, same as em.
  645. # [23:01] <annevk> Hixie_: kk
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  648. # [23:08] <Hixie_> wtf, in firefox i sometimes can enumerate them and sometimes not
  649. # [23:08] <Hixie_> oh i suppose you could do what i described using a creator...
  650. # [23:09] <Hixie_> though that'd be wacked
  651. # [23:10] <TabAtkins> Hixie_: Hm?
  652. # [23:10] <Hixie_> instead of a getter, i define a setter
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  654. # [23:10] <Hixie_> that ignores the value
  655. # [23:11] <Hixie_> and returns the property value
  656. # [23:11] <Hixie_> it'd get the effect i described earlier
  657. # [23:11] <Hixie_> (not actually suggesting doing this)
  658. # [23:11] <Hixie_> er, define a creator
  659. # [23:11] <TabAtkins> Hm, yeah, that might work.
  660. # [23:11] <TabAtkins> Check with heycam first. ^_^
  661. # [23:11] * Joins: jtcranmer (~jcranmer@ltsp2.csl.tjhsst.edu)
  662. # [23:12] <Hixie_> actually a creator would fail the 'in' test
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  670. # [23:21] <TabAtkins> Ah, right, because there are no named properties.
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  673. # [23:26] <Hixie_> anyone got IE handy? i'm having trouble getting mine to work. What does it say in the log for http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/2396 ?
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  681. # [23:32] <annevk> gimme a sec
  682. # [23:33] <annevk> Hixie_: eight results, 3 and 6 are ---, rest is false
  683. # [23:33] <annevk> Hixie_: sorry, --
  684. # [23:33] * Joins: cabanier (~cabanier@sjfw1.adobe.com)
  685. # [23:33] <annevk> Hixie_: IE10
  686. # [23:34] * Joins: rcombs (~rcombs@rcombs.me)
  687. # [23:35] <Hixie_> oh, right, you probably don't have that plugin
  688. # [23:36] <Hixie_> annevk: wait, per that you don't have any plugins installed at all
  689. # [23:36] <Hixie_> is that true?
  690. # [23:37] <Hixie_> annevk: try http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/2397
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  693. # [23:37] <Hixie_> annevk: but if you don't have any plugins (first result is false) then that might not tell us anything useful
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  699. # [23:41] <ThomasOr_> Hi! Would there be an autoconfirmed user on the chat that could help me with a whatwg wiki account? : )
  700. # [23:41] <Hixie_> ThomasOr_: yeah, sorry for delay answering your e-mail. let me do it now.
  701. # [23:42] <ThomasOr_> No worries! : ) I kind of assume that everyone is busy around! : )
  702. # [23:42] <ThomasOr_> And thanks!
  703. # [23:42] <Hixie_> done, check e-mail for details. :-)
  704. # [23:42] <ThomasOr_> That was fast, thanks a lot!!
  705. # [23:42] <Hixie_> np
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  707. # [23:42] <Hixie_> annevk: do you recall who's a blog admin these days?
  708. # [23:47] <annevk> Hixie_: I am one
  709. # [23:47] <Hixie_> GPHemsley: btw, you still looking for a project? because mouse events would be a good one, and shouldn't be too hard, yet is a huge hole in our current spec coverage.
  710. # [23:47] <annevk> Hixie_: will look at the IE thing
  711. # [23:47] <annevk> Hixie_: I don't have plugins
  712. # [23:48] <annevk> Hixie_: "error: Unable to get property 'name' of undefined or null reference on line 2"
  713. # [23:48] <Hixie_> k
  714. # [23:48] <annevk> Hixie_: default install of Windows plus IE10
  715. # [23:49] * annevk updates the blog software
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  717. # [23:51] <Hixie_> wow, IE10 by default has no flash?
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  719. # [23:52] * Krinkle is now known as Krinkle|detached
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  721. # [23:52] <annevk> Hixie_: so, you are an admin, Christopher Bright is, gsnedders, hsivonen, jgraham, lachlan, markp, MikeSmith, zcorpan
  722. # [23:52] <annevk> Hixie_: also me
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  725. # [23:54] <gsnedders> annevk: Where?
  726. # [23:55] <annevk> WHATWG Blog
  727. # [23:55] <Hixie_> roger
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  732. # Session Close: Tue Jul 09 00:00:01 2013

The end :)