/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2013-07-10 / end

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1. # Session Start: Wed Jul 10 00:00:00 2013
2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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5. # [00:02] <Hixie_> yay for including ip addresses in bugs from the quick form
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7. # [00:06] <annevk> rafaelw: didn't smaug____ point out elsewhere that it wasn't just showModalDialog but also other things?
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9. # [00:06] <rafaelw> i'm hoping he'll point it out again =-)
10. # [00:06] <rafaelw> (sync xhr?)
11. # [00:06] <annevk> I should take some time to read up on all this since event loops currently make me run
12. # [00:06] <rafaelw> (workers)
13. # [00:06] * annevk looks
14. # [00:06] <smaug____> sync XHR is gecko only thing
15. # [00:07] <annevk> sync XHR is not it, although it is in Gecko at the moment
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17. # [00:07] <smaug____> parser spins
18. # [00:07] <smaug____> IIRC
19. # [00:07] <smaug____> and there might be some 3rd case too
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23. # [00:08] <annevk> Oh, it was sicking, see https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20821#c3 rafaelw
24. # [00:09] <annevk> "It's definitely the case that spinning the event loop does raise a lot of complex issues with regards to things that need to happen at end-of-microtask. However many of these issues arise no matter what."
25. # [00:09] <rafaelw> that's the part that i don't understand.
26. # [00:09] <rafaelw> otherwise it sounds like we're in agreement.
27. # [00:09] <rafaelw> IOW: Don't do that.
28. # [00:10] <rafaelw> (and try to make progress towards removing that surface area)
29. # [00:10] <annevk> I think I'm in your camp, but for now I'm just trying to get you guys to sort it out :-)
30. # [00:12] <jamesr__> document.write() doesn't spin the message loop
31. # [00:12] <jamesr__> although it can run lots of fun things
32. # [00:12] <jamesr__> ditto with innerHTML
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34. # [00:12] <jamesr__> for my money, showModalDialog() should just throw (or silently do nothing) in all cases. web compat impact TBD :)
35. # [00:15] <annevk> uhuh
36. # [00:18] <Hixie_> hear hear
37. # [00:18] <Hixie_> though i did just finish fixing its spec :-)
38. # [00:19] <Hixie_> if anyone objects to my renaming the term "allowed to navigate", please speak up now
39. # [00:21] <Hixie_> (specifically, my plan is s/allowed to navigate/friendly with/)
40. # [00:21] <Hixie_> or "friends with"
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45. # [00:33] <annevk> Hixie_: "Stop one"
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48. # [00:36] <Hixie_> where?
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54. # [00:42] <annevk> Hixie_: commit message ;)
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57. # [00:43] <Hixie_> oh, no chance of changing those
58. # [00:50] <Hixie_> "If I do not know how to use what can be helped by itself, so that the maximum my site as desired?"
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70. # [01:19] <divya> wheres simon when you need him
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73. # [01:29] <GPHemsley> Hixie_: Next step is to upgrade PHP?
74. # [01:29] <Hixie_> oh right
75. # [01:29] <Hixie_> wiki.whatwg.org right?
76. # [01:29] <Hixie_> 5.3 or 5.4? 5.4?
77. # [01:30] <GPHemsley> what's the highest
78. # [01:30] <Hixie_> 5.4
79. # [01:30] <Hixie_> FastCGI?
80. # [01:30] <GPHemsley> yeah
81. # [01:30] <Hixie_> XCache? it wasn't checked before
82. # [01:30] <GPHemsley> hmm
83. # [01:30] <GPHemsley> nah
84. # [01:30] <Hixie_> done
85. # [01:30] <GPHemsley> thanks
86. # [01:30] * GPHemsley checks for bustage
87. # [01:31] <GPHemsley> hmm... not instantaneous?
88. # [01:31] <GPHemsley> oh, you know something
89. # [01:31] <GPHemsley> I think the OS upgrade earlier broke the wiki widgets
90. # [01:32] <GPHemsley> err, gadgets
91. # [01:33] <GPHemsley> Hixie_: Did it say how long it would take to go into effect?
92. # [01:34] <Hixie_> prolly take 10 or so minutes
93. # [01:34] <GPHemsley> alright, I'll check back later
94. # [01:34] <Hixie_> they have a system that does deployments in a queue or something
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98. # [01:41] <Hixie_> i've gotten to a low enough number of bugs that i've actually responded to all 10 within the last 12 horus
99. # [01:41] <Hixie_> (all 10 that aren't blocked or intentionally deferred)
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102. # [01:41] <Hixie_> (there's 110 of those)
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117. # [02:05] <jamesr__> Hixie_: http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/dom/base/nsGlobalWindow.cpp#309
118. # [02:05] <Hixie_> thanks
119. # [02:05] <jamesr__> (finding the blink/webkit one)
120. # [02:05] <jamesr__> blink: https://code.google.com/p/chromium/codesearch#chromium/src/third_party/WebKit/Source/core/page/DOMTimer.cpp&sq=package:chromium&type=cs&l=41
121. # [02:06] <jamesr__> webkit's still the same
122. # [02:07] <Hixie_> notice firefox actually clamps setinterval to 1
123. # [02:08] <zewt> big blocks of code-in-defines in firefox code = sadface
124. # [02:09] <jamesr__> oh interesting
125. # [02:09] <jamesr__> looks like we do too
126. # [02:09] <Hixie_> actually looks like blink clamps to 0 even in settimeout?
127. # [02:09] <Hixie_> is DOMTimer::DOMTimer called for both timeouts and intervals?
128. # [02:09] <jamesr__> here: https://code.google.com/p/chromium/codesearch#chromium/src/third_party/WebKit/Source/core/page/DOMTimer.cpp&sq=package:chromium&type=cs&l=85
129. # [02:09] <Hixie_> er, 1
130. # [02:10] <jamesr__> the difference between 0 and 1 is rarely web-observable
131. # [02:10] <jamesr__> but that's interesting
132. # [02:11] <Hixie_> it's not often that i think gecko code is easier to follow than webkit code, but in this particular instance...
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134. # [02:12] <Hixie_> wait, nevermind, i scrolled down more in the gecko code
135. # [02:14] <jamesr__> the amount of gecko code that fits into one page is simpler :P
136. # [02:14] <jamesr__> i don't think we have an equivalent of their IsFrozen() stuff
137. # [02:15] <zewt> at least it's not ... java
138. # [02:15] <zewt> the king language of "take 25 pages to do anything"
139. # [02:15] <jamesr__> or the subject principle stuff they have
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141. # [02:15] <jamesr__> since we don't support bfcache or running privileged JS in the same context as web content
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143. # [02:17] <zewt> usually when i look at gecko, i give up before even finding the source for the thing i'm interested in, heh
144. # [02:18] <jamesr__> mxr.mozilla.org is great
145. # [02:18] <jamesr__> just have to throw enough regexes at it
146. # [02:18] <jamesr__> and remember to throw "ns" on the front of random things
147. # [02:20] <Hixie_> i'm marking https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=22604 NEEDSINFO unless someone can elaborate on what needs explaining. (window.stop())
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149. # [02:25] <GPHemsley> Hixie_: ah, updated now, cool
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151. # [02:26] <zewt> i think it's fabulous that, when logging into progressive.com, i enter my username and password, then click "save user id"
152. # [02:26] <zewt> and it ... opens a new page explaining what "save user id" means (and when i hit back the info i entered is gone)
153. # [02:26] <zewt> label fail
154. # [02:27] * GPHemsley will eventually get to upgrading the MediaWiki installation
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158. # [02:32] <Hixie_> ok. i have officially dealt with bugs and will now transition to e-mails.
159. # [02:32] <Hixie_> yikes, according to my e-mail metrics script, i have some feedback from 1969-12-31 16:00:00
160. # [02:32] <Hixie_> i'm thinking maybe my script will be the next thing i work on...
161. # [02:33] <zewt> maybe you're just more behind than you thought
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173. # [03:07] <MikeSmith> Hixie_: commit-watchers messages are showing some svn error on your server
174. # [03:07] <MikeSmith> http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/commit-watchers-whatwg.org/2013/007197.html
175. # [03:07] <MikeSmith> "svnlook: Can't find a temporary directory"
176. # [03:08] <Hixie_> yeah, known issue
177. # [03:08] <Hixie_> support request is in the queue
178. # [03:09] <MikeSmith> ok
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180. # [03:10] <MikeSmith> ah I see it means the diffs aren't showing up at e.g., http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker?from=8048&to=8049 either
181. # [03:10] * MikeSmith resorts to running svn log locally
182. # [03:11] <MikeSmith> $ svn update
183. # [03:11] <MikeSmith> Updating '.':
184. # [03:11] <MikeSmith> svn: E020014: Can't find a temporary directory: Internal error
185. # [03:12] <MikeSmith> I guess that's the same error, coming from your server
186. # [03:12] <MikeSmith> gotta love subversion
187. # [03:16] <nessy1> Hixie_ thanks for dealing with the removeTextTrack() request - hope it's ok for me to flick things like this over to WHATWG?
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193. # [03:28] <Hixie_> MikeSmith: yeah
194. # [03:28] <Hixie_> MikeSmith: server was updated today
195. # [03:28] <Hixie_> nessy1: sure
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197. # [03:28] <MikeSmith> Hixie_: ok
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211. # [03:53] <annevk> MikeSmith: distributed software man, kinda like the web
212. # [03:54] <MikeSmith> poorly distributed
213. # [03:54] <MikeSmith> clearly
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215. # [03:54] <MikeSmith> in the case of svn at least
216. # [03:54] <MikeSmith> ill-distributed
217. # [03:56] <annevk> MikeSmith: I say we blame your employer
218. # [03:57] <MikeSmith> which of my employers? the NSA, or the Six Big Hollywood Studios?
219. # [04:04] <annevk> MikeSmith: Looney Tunes, doh
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223. # [04:14] <Hixie_> man, this /tmp problem has all kinds of side-effects
224. # [04:14] <Hixie_> all my cron jobs are broken because cron can't create lock files
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226. # [04:29] <Hixie_> oh, awesome. i'm finally running a version of perl recent enough to have the // operator.
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228. # [04:34] * heycam does "man perlop", discovers that // looks pretty useful
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231. # [04:37] <Hixie_> heycam: //= too
232. # [04:37] <Hixie_> in fact //= is the more useful one
233. # [04:39] <zewt> perl :|
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236. # [04:50] <annevk> /= assigns RH to LH if RH is defined and otherwise leaves LH be LH?
237. # [04:50] <annevk> //=*
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239. # [04:57] <Hixie_> yes
240. # [04:57] <Hixie_> zewt: yeah, while i love perl, i'd never actually recommend it to anyone. :-)
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243. # [04:58] <Hixie_> zewt: it gets "unmaintainable" as one of its "other notable failings" on my programming languages page (http://ian.hixie.ch/programming/)
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252. # [05:18] <tantek> Hixie, nice table. Curious what you're take on PHP is / will be.
253. # [05:18] <tantek> and Rust while you're at it.
254. # [05:18] <Hixie_> php doesn't deserve to be on that table
255. # [05:18] <Hixie_> not familiar with rust
256. # [05:18] <zewt> php is more useful than perl in my experience heh
257. # [05:19] <tantek> PHP seems to be fairly good for shipping / scaling websites in practice.
258. # [05:19] <msaad> tanked: indeed!
259. # [05:19] <msaad> tantek*
260. # [05:19] <tantek> You know, WordPress, Facebook, small sites/software like that.
261. # [05:19] <msaad> ahahhaa
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263. # [05:20] <tantek> Hixie: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rust_%28programming_language%29
264. # [05:23] <Hixie_> seems fine
265. # [05:24] <Hixie_> as far as that table goes, it's not supposed to be subjective
266. # [05:24] <Hixie_> so you could easily enough (if you know rust) fill out a row for it
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335. # [09:43] <heycam> what's the difference between Rect and CSSRect?
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343. # [10:11] <hsivonen> Hixie_: Your programming language table is too generous when it says Python has Unicode support
344. # [10:11] <hsivonen> it has it twice and you don't know which semantics your program will be run with
345. # [10:11] <hsivonen> which is arguable worse than no explicit support
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347. # [10:14] <jgraham> hsivonen: That assessment is much more theoretical than practical
348. # [10:15] <jgraham> For the cases where it matters (and istr that some of the differences have been fixed in the API) you can detect at runtime which kind of build you are running on
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385. # [12:01] <jgraham> Ms2ger: What did you want me to do?
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388. # [12:02] <Ms2ger> annevk wanted someone to fix up the tabs when merging his PR
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390. # [12:03] <Ms2ger> (Introduce tabs, that is)
391. # [12:06] <jgraham> I am still quite confused. Why did he want tabs and why did he want someone else to add them? Also where (i.e. which PR)?
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394. # [12:07] <Ms2ger> https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/243
395. # [12:07] <Ms2ger> The file uses tabs because Aryeh wrote it
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398. # [12:09] <jgraham> Oh OK
399. # [12:09] <jgraham> Well I have an alternate proposal, which is s/\t/ /g
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407. # [12:49] <darobin> jgraham: that doesn't actually really work for replacing tabs
408. # [12:49] <darobin> well, it'll replace tabs alright
409. # [12:49] <darobin> but you might wreak havoc if someone has them anywhere other than at the beginning of a line
410. # [12:51] <Ms2ger> That's fine, then
411. # [12:55] <jgraham> darobin: Well in practice I would (will) actually just use the emacs function.
412. # [12:56] <darobin> Ms2ger: I wouldn't trust someone who's using tabs in the first place not to sprinkle them throughout :)
413. # [12:56] <darobin> jgraham: yeah
414. # [12:57] <Ms2ger> I trust Aryeh on that
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435. # [14:05] <darobin> is it known that the WHATWG SVN is dead?
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437. # [14:05] <darobin> ah, yes, it's known
438. # [14:07] <darobin> bummer
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445. # [14:29] <annevk> doesn't take long to figure out when all things fall apart :)
446. # [14:30] <annevk> jgraham: replacing with spaces wfm too, I'd prefer if the person merging does it
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454. # [14:42] <annevk> JakeA: were you interested in https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=22628 or was that someone else?
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457. # [14:44] <JakeA> I don't *think* that was me
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459. # [14:45] <JakeA> There was stuff around getting information from the window object into the NavigationController (but the problem there is there isn't always a related window), but I don't think this is part of it
460. # [14:45] <annevk> JakeA: mkay, well now you know anyway
461. # [14:46] <annevk> JakeA: yeah, that's a bit distinct, though I guess there might be some overlap
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463. # [14:51] <annevk> Hixie_'s table makes C# look pretty compelling
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470. # [15:09] <darobin> C# isn't too bad, it's a bit like Java done right
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514. # [15:45] <annevk5> Domenic_: why did you not make Elements a frozen array btw?
515. # [15:45] * annevk5 is now known as annevk_
516. # [15:45] <darobin> a quick question to the python people here...
517. # [15:46] <darobin> I have this lovely piece of code: new_toc_items = [ (d, id, e) for (d, id, e) in toc_items if id_pages[id] == name ]
518. # [15:46] <darobin> and I'm getting a KeyError
519. # [15:46] <darobin> do I presume right that it's for a key that's in toc_items and not in id_pages?
520. # [15:46] * darobin swears this language will drive me crazy, Perl ftw
521. # [15:46] <Ms2ger> Sounds right
522. # [15:46] <darobin> k, ta
523. # [15:47] <Ms2ger> id_pages.get() maybe?
524. # [15:47] * darobin now at least knows in which haystack to look for the needle
525. # [15:47] <gsnedders> darobin: What type is toc_items?
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527. # [15:47] <darobin> Ms2ger: I thought of that, but I think it's a genuine issue if the key ain't there
528. # [15:48] <darobin> gsnedders: it's an array, or whatever [] is called in Python
529. # [15:48] <annevk_> darobin: list
530. # [15:48] <darobin> right, I knew they'd do it differently :)
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532. # [15:48] <annevk_> it makes sense
533. # [15:48] <annevk_> if you're Dutch
534. # [15:48] <darobin> aha!
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536. # [15:49] <darobin> maybe I should learn Dutch then, if it makes my grief in using python go away it's worth it
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631. # [16:45] <GPHemsley> Chrome doesn't fire mouseenter/mouseleave? o_0
632. # [16:47] <Ms2ger> gsnedders, remind me how I get sorted attributes in html5lib?
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634. # [16:48] <GPHemsley> and neither does Safari
635. # [16:48] <Ms2ger> Or jgraham
636. # [16:49] <SimonSapin> Ms2ger: HTMLSerializer(alphabetical_attributes=True)
637. # [16:50] <GPHemsley> Hixie_: Oh, goodie. No interop in mouse event order.
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639. # [16:50] <GPHemsley> (Though Opera's behavior is what I would've done.)
640. # [16:51] <Ms2ger> Ha
641. # [16:51] * GPHemsley checks IE
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645. # [16:58] <Domenic_> annevk: didn't really see a point, and frozen arrays are kind of awkward. although, if we were to have something like `Element.childElements` that returned an `Elements`, i.e. if `Elements` ever represents a real DOM tree instead of just a snapshot, then we should override all the mutation methods to do a type-check before calling their `super`.
646. # [16:58] <Ms2ger> Okay, that works
647. # [16:59] <Ms2ger> Any Anolis users around who object to bumping the required html5lib version to 1.0b2?
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650. # [17:04] <GPHemsley> Ms2ger: Not if you turn on sorting the attributes
651. # [17:05] <Ms2ger> Yeah
652. # [17:05] <annevk> Ugh, software upgrades
653. # [17:05] <annevk> Domenic_: how would Elements represent a tree? It's an array.
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665. # [17:10] <Domenic_> annevk: sorry, s/real DOM tree/part of a real DOM tree
666. # [17:10] <annevk> Domenic_: doesn't help
667. # [17:11] <Domenic_> meaning, mutating the return value of `findAll()` doesn't matter, since it doesn't represent something that's in the DOM. But mutating e.g. `myDiv.childElements` would matter, since it represents the child elements of `myDiv`.
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670. # [17:12] <Domenic_> (setting aside the fact that having `children`, `childNodes`, and `childElements` all together would be crazy-confusing.)
671. # [17:12] <annevk> Mkay. I guess that's why frozen seems somewhat better since it works in more cases, but it's kinda annoying you'd have to clone it in order to modify the array.
672. # [17:13] <annevk> Yeah, we probably wouldn't add yet another member there addressing the same use case.
673. # [17:13] <Domenic_> yeah, i was trying for jQuery-ease-of-use parity, and I do somewhat-often dynamically construct or modify my jQuery $() objects.
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678. # [17:18] <Domenic_> (it would be cool to have something where you do `myDiv.childElements.push` instead of `myDiv.appendChild`.)
679. # [17:19] <Ms2ger> Eww
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688. # [17:30] <annevk> Domenic_: given the number of checks appendChild() does, I'm not sure that's feasible
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690. # [17:33] <Domenic_> annevk: you're probably right, but naively you could just add those checks to `push` before calling `super`.
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692. # [17:33] * Domenic_ goes off to look at appendChild spec
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694. # [17:34] <annevk> Domenic_: http://dom.spec.whatwg.org/#concept-node-pre-insert
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697. # [17:35] <annevk> Domenic_: with child being null
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707. # [17:44] <GPHemsley> what I don't understand is why everyone fires a mouseover event for elements that are not on top
708. # [17:45] <GPHemsley> and only when the not-on-top element is a parent of the on-top element
709. # [17:47] <annevk> GPHemsley: matches :hover
710. # [17:47] <GPHemsley> it's like they fire mouseover leaf to root and then fire mouseenter root to leaf
711. # [17:47] <annevk> (not sure which came first)
712. # [17:48] <GPHemsley> actually, only Gecko does that
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714. # [17:48] <GPHemsley> Opera does it in the reverse order: mouseenter before mouseover
715. # [17:48] <GPHemsley> Chrome and Safari don't even fire mouseenter
716. # [17:49] <annevk> just landed in Chrome
717. # [17:49] <annevk> (patch for mouseeventer)
718. # [17:49] <GPHemsley> any idea what order it uses?
719. # [17:50] <GPHemsley> mouseout/mouseleave seems more consistent cross-browser, but not necessarily logically
720. # [17:51] <GPHemsley> both mouseout and mouseleave (where applicable) are fired leaf to root
721. # [17:51] <GPHemsley> and both Gecko and Opera fire mouseout before mouseleave
722. # [17:52] <GPHemsley> which means Gecko is mouseover -> mouseenter -> mouseout -> mouseleave
723. # [17:52] <GPHemsley> and Opera is mouseenter -> mouseover -> mouseout -> mouseleave
724. # [17:52] <GPHemsley> oh, that actually is logical, I guess
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726. # [17:53] <GPHemsley> sort of
727. # [17:55] <GPHemsley> I might've interleaved them, instead of firing all of one type at once before firing all of the other type
728. # [17:55] <GPHemsley> but in any case, it seems the only interop order problem is mouseenter vs. mouseover
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731. # [17:56] <GPHemsley> Gecko seems to match what DOM 3 Events suggests with its examples; Opera match what seems more logical to me
732. # [17:56] <GPHemsley> hopefully Chrome picked one of the two
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734. # [17:58] <jgraham> Ms2ger: So did you actually review https://critic.hoppipolla.co.uk/r/212?
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736. # [17:59] <Ms2ger> Not carefully
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745. # [18:05] <GPHemsley> Ms2ger: Are you working on updating Anolis to sort attributes?
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748. # [18:06] <jgraham> Ms2ger: Fancy reviewing it carefully? Then I will do the whitespace fixups
749. # [18:06] <jgraham> (which I should say are not exactly easy to do in the github workflow)
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752. # [18:11] <Ms2ger> I guess I can
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763. # [18:46] <darobin> GPHemsley: if you enjoy looking at how interoperable events are, I highly recommend how they work for <select> :) http://rodneyrehm.github.io/select-events/
764. # [18:47] <GPHemsley> oh my
765. # [18:47] <GPHemsley> I'm actually looking specifically at mouse events
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768. # [18:48] <GPHemsley> but this looks helpful
769. # [18:49] <GPHemsley> (though I see IE going to be a pain)
770. # [18:49] <jpwhiting> hello all, I'm using a local copy of validator.nu with my own schema based on html5full.rnc
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772. # [18:49] <jpwhiting> but now that I've rebuilt, I'm getting a java exception when it reads my rnc file
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775. # [18:50] <jpwhiting> java.lang.ClassCastException: org.xml.sax.InputSource cannot be cast to nu.validator.xml.TypedInputSource
776. # [18:50] <jpwhiting> I'm using the same schema file I used 3 months ago, but I didn't keep the sources for validator.nu from then, so trying to use it with current validator.nu sources and failing :/
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779. # [18:56] <jpwhiting> which makes no sense because TypedInputSource extends InputSource, so it should be able to cast, no?
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784. # [19:01] <annevk> GPHemsley: you want to test IE too I think
785. # [19:01] <annevk> GPHemsley: IE pioneered some of those events
786. # [19:01] <GPHemsley> according to the test results from darobin's link, IE does things differently than everyone else, too
787. # [19:02] <GPHemsley> in particular, mousemove comes before mouseover and mouseenter
788. # [19:02] <annevk> GPHemsley: putting these forward as bugs against DOM Level 3 Events might help get some of this fixed before you fix all of the details with a better spec, fwiw
789. # [19:03] <GPHemsley> they don't necessarily seem like spec bugs to me
790. # [19:03] <GPHemsley> except insofar as the spec doesn't actually really specify the right order
791. # [19:04] <annevk> That's called a spec bug
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793. # [19:04] <GPHemsley> if I file everything as a spec bug on DOM 3 Events, then what goes in the new spec?
794. # [19:05] <jpwhiting> ah, seems I was patching the wrong entitymap file
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797. # [19:05] <annevk> When you find fundamental brokenness and the lack of a clear model as a showstopper to fixing bugs
798. # [19:05] <annevk> (and adding new features)
799. # [19:06] <annevk> jpwhiting: good, since the one guy that can help you with that is prolly asleep
800. # [19:07] <jpwhiting> :)
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802. # [19:07] * jpwhiting seems to be learning java, despite his best efforts
803. # [19:07] * jpwhiting is a C++ guy :p
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805. # [19:08] <GPHemsley> annevk: Well, then I guess I'm still not clear on what Hixie_ is asking me to spec.
806. # [19:09] <annevk> GPHemsley: what did Hixie_ say?
807. # [19:09] <jpwhiting> annevk: just curious who is the one guy that knows this stuff?
808. # [19:09] * jpwhiting forgot, though I think I've chatted with him before
809. # [19:10] <Ms2ger> hsivonen?
810. # [19:10] <Ms2ger> If you mean the Java parser
811. # [19:10] <annevk> jpwhiting: MikeSmit1
812. # [19:10] <jpwhiting> right, thanks
813. # [19:10] <Ms2ger> And Mike too, yes
814. # [19:10] <jpwhiting> that seems to trigger some memory
815. # [19:10] <annevk> He's in Tokyo, hence the sleeping
816. # [19:10] <jpwhiting> right, makes sense
817. # [19:11] <GPHemsley> annevk: 21:44 Hixie_ GPHemsley: btw, you still looking for a project? because mouse events would be a good one, and shouldn't be too hard, yet is a huge hole in our current spec coverage.
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819. # [19:11] <jpwhiting> being the middle of the night there at the moment :)
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822. # [19:12] <GPHemsley> annevk: 00:08 Hixie_ GPHemsley: these events are what need speccing. I wouldn't call them "DOM 3 events", they were invented before the W3C had a DOM WG. (Possibly before the W3C existed.)
823. # [19:12] <GPHemsley> 00:09 Hixie_ GPHemsley: as zewt says, though, it's not so much the events that need speccing, as the reaction to mouse movements, clicks, etc. Which happens to involve firing events with these names, but that's the effect, no the cause.
824. # [19:12] <GPHemsley> annevk: Where "these events" mean the ones in DOM 3 Events
825. # [19:12] <GPHemsley> the mouse* ones, that is
826. # [19:13] <GPHemsley> http://www.w3.org/TR/DOM-Level-3-Events/#events-mouseevents
827. # [19:13] <GPHemsley> actually http://www.w3.org/TR/DOM-Level-3-Events/#events-mouseevent-event-order
828. # [19:13] <GPHemsley> (these quotes are from yesterday and the day before)
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830. # [19:18] <annevk> GPHemsley: afk for a bit
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849. # [19:59] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
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885. # [21:04] <GPHemsley> Ms2ger: What's the best way to link to a definition in a spec that doesn't have an xref file?
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897. # [21:18] <Ms2ger> GPHemsley, add an xref file manually
898. # [21:18] <GPHemsley> that's the only way?
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903. # [21:21] <Ms2ger> GPHemsley, no, you can also use a normal a element
904. # [21:21] <Hixie_> ok, dreamhost say /tmp permissions issues are fixed
905. # [21:21] <Hixie_> (and they do seem to be)
906. # [21:28] <annevk> we're generating diffs again
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908. # [21:29] <annevk> GPHemsley: so yeah, sounds like Hixie_ is indeed talking about all those things
909. # [21:30] <annevk> GPHemsley: another set of events that need similar treatment is keyboard events
910. # [21:30] <Hixie_> i'm talking about things?
911. # [21:30] <annevk> Hixie_: 17
912. # [21:31] <Hixie_> 17 things?
913. # [21:31] <annevk> yes, in two minutes
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916. # [21:34] <Hixie_> i'm confooooooosed
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925. # [21:53] <GPHemsley> Hixie_: annevk told me to file bugs against DOM 3 Events instead of writing a new spec, so now I'm confused
926. # [21:53] <GPHemsley> (for certain definitions of "instead of")
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940. # [22:09] <Hixie_> GPHemsley: if there's already a spec that attempts to address this, then that's news to me
941. # [22:09] <Hixie_> GPHemsley: but good news, i guess
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943. # [22:11] <GPHemsley> Hixie_: Well, DOM 3 Events is the only one we've been discussing
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945. # [22:11] <GPHemsley> Hixie_: I got mixed information as to whether it attempts to address this
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948. # [22:12] <GPHemsley> Hixie_: http://www.w3.org/TR/DOM-Level-3-Events/#events-mouseevent-event-order
949. # [22:12] <Hixie_> ask the editors, i guess :-)
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952. # [22:15] <GPHemsley> Hixie_: I wouldn't know what to ask. Other than event ordering, I'm still not clear on what is missing. (Also, the two current editors are from Microsoft, and the spec does not include editor e-mail addresses.)
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956. # [22:17] <annevk> GPHemsley: hit testing is missing, as I pointed out
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958. # [22:18] <annevk> GPHemsley: and a more exact definition of how the various members of a MouseEvent object are set
959. # [22:19] <annevk> GPHemsley: etc.
960. # [22:19] <annevk> GPHemsley: as for filing bugs, I was saying that as a means of getting browsers to converge on some of the issues faster
961. # [22:19] <annevk> GPHemsley: if they can fix all the issues, that'd be great, but I suspect that at some point they'll stop fixing
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965. # [22:20] <Hixie_> GPHemsley: is there anything that says "when the mouse moves, user agents must fire a mouseenter event with the clientX attribute set to..." and so on?
966. # [22:22] <GPHemsley> Hixie_: "A user agent must dispatch this event [mouseenter] when a pointing device is moved onto the boundaries of an element or one of its descendent elements."
967. # [22:22] <GPHemsley> Hixie_: "MouseEvent.clientX: value based on the pointer position within the viewport
968. # [22:22] <GPHemsley> MouseEvent.clientY : value based on the pointer position within the viewport"
969. # [22:23] <Hixie_> wow that's so many kinds of wrong i don't even know where to begin
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971. # [22:23] <Hixie_> there needs to be an explanation of the task queued to do this, the task source for those tasks, the "based on" needs to be precise, the "boundaries" needs to be defined
972. # [22:24] <Hixie_> the default action needs to be defined
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974. # [22:24] <Hixie_> etc etc etc
975. # [22:25] <GPHemsley> "Default action none"
976. # [22:25] <Hixie_> that normatively likely doesn't mean anything
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978. # [22:25] <Hixie_> (basically, if the event is fired using a table, you can almost guarantee it's done wrong)
979. # [22:27] <GPHemsley> in that case, there's probably no hope of a spec bug fixing this, as the whole document uses tables to describe events
980. # [22:28] <Hixie_> there's a reason i never brought up dom3 events
981. # [22:28] <GPHemsley> heh
982. # [22:28] <GPHemsley> well I admit I'd have to learn more about events in general in order to do this right, I'd think
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984. # [22:29] <GPHemsley> but are you saying I should just ignore DOM 3 Events?
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988. # [22:30] <Hixie_> i do
989. # [22:31] <GPHemsley> and start from scratch?
990. # [22:33] <annevk> GPHemsley: again, filing bugs against DOM Level 3 Events will help with some short term convergence, but is not a viable long term strategy
991. # [22:33] <annevk> I think both are worthwhile
992. # [22:33] <GPHemsley> annevk: I can't ignore DOM 3 Events and file bugs on it at the same time.
993. # [22:34] <Hixie_> GPHemsley: well, so, part of the job here is figuring out what the job is :-)
994. # [22:35] <Hixie_> GPHemsley: i'm not saying "do this" or "do that", i'm saying, one problem we have on the web right now is there's no serious accurate and precise description of how mouse and trackpad interactions map to the variety of mouse events that deployed Web page content relies on
995. # [22:35] <Hixie_> GPHemsley: if someone wants to fix this, then they should take ownership of the issue, and then decide how best to solve it. It could be that the best way to solve this is to work with existing editors at the W3C to improve specs in this area.
996. # [22:36] <Hixie_> GPHemsley: it could be that the best way to solve this is to start from scratch, like we've done with e.g. URLs, DOM Core, HTML Editing APIs, HTML in general, etc.
997. # [22:36] <Hixie_> GPHemsley: it could be that the best way to solve this is prayer (though that seems unlikely)
998. # [22:36] <GPHemsley> definitely nixing that 3rd option
999. # [22:37] <Hixie_> GPHemsley: whoever decides to own this, if anyone does, would have to make these calls
1000. # [22:37] <Hixie_> i'm happy to provide advice, but if i knew exactly how to fix it, i'd just do it :-)
1001. # [22:38] <GPHemsley> fair enough
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1008. # [22:45] <annevk> I think I kinda know how to fix it, but I'm lazy
1009. # [22:45] <annevk> I also don't want to own user interaction events forever
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1125. # [23:59] * Quits: weinig (~weinig@17.114.219.101) (Quit: weinig)
1126. # [23:59] * Joins: bholley (~bholley@c-67-180-21-133.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
1127. # Session Close: Thu Jul 11 00:00:00 2013

The end :)