/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2013-07-15 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Mon Jul 15 00:00:01 2013
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  27. # [01:52] <annevk> cabanier: yo, so the general canvas for worker design is generally agreed upon?
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  30. # [01:54] <cabanier> annevk: I don't think so
  31. # [01:55] <cabanier> annevk: I haven't seen any feedback
  32. # [01:55] <annevk> cabanier: hmm yeah, I guess that indicates it's not
  33. # [01:55] <cabanier> annevk: I can't tell how it's supposed to work. how can the drawing in the worker synchronize with the main thread?
  34. # [01:56] <cabanier> annevk: I have seen negative feedback for webgl in a worker
  35. # [01:57] <annevk> cabanier: using commit() I think
  36. # [01:57] <cabanier> "Having designed several rendering engines that used GL share groups in the past, I can say that WebGL in a worker alone is not what most people want (though they don't know that, yet). The additional latency of moving input events to the background thread (we all aren't just spinning cubes, you know) and the inability to properly synchronize DOM elements makes primary rendering in a worker a non-starter in most cases, and in others just makes it signifi
  37. # [01:58] <cabanier> annevk: When would you call commit? there's no requestanimationFrame in a worker...
  38. # [01:58] <annevk> Similar concerns have been raised about Web Audio... Latency :/
  39. # [01:58] <zewt> ... the main use case for webgl in workers are doing offscreen rendering and math, not rendering for display
  40. # [01:59] <zewt> (not impressed by people who tell me "i know more than you and you'll realize it some day")
  41. # [01:59] <cabanier> zewt: will that speed up things though?
  42. # [01:59] <zewt> the point of workers is to keep stuff from hitching the ui more than speeding anything up
  43. # [01:59] <cabanier> zewt: in the non-web platform world, few applications have pulled this off.
  44. # [02:00] <cabanier> zewt: wouldn't asynchronous API solve that too?
  45. # [02:00] <zewt> in a clumsier way, sometimes
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  47. # [02:00] <zewt> (opengl isn't a nicely controllable asynchronous api, so it's probably not a good fit)
  48. # [02:01] <cabanier> zewt: yeah. most (all?) canvas 2d implementors are on top of OpenGL or DirectX so have the same problem
  49. # [02:01] <zewt> and on mobile you're generally stuck with whatever native gles you've got
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  52. # [02:03] <cabanier> zewt: creating offscreen canvas in a worker and transferring the bitmap back make sense
  53. # [02:03] <cabanier> zewt: but the spec is written so an on-screen canvas can be transferred too.
  54. # [02:03] <cabanier> zewt: I don't know how that can work :-S
  55. # [02:04] <zewt> rendering to onscreen from a thread is probably fine as long as it's loosely coupled, but it probably gets hairier if you eg. allow reading pixel data from the ui thread while rendering in another thread
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  57. # [02:06] <cabanier> zewt: unsure.
  58. # [02:06] <cabanier> zewt: can you transfer GPU resources between threads?
  59. # [02:06] <cabanier> zewt: I thought that was not that easy
  60. # [02:07] <zewt> i guess the trickier part is compositing, which is something native games don't have to worry about
  61. # [02:07] <cabanier> zewt: how so? you mean composite the canvas back on the main screen?
  62. # [02:08] <zewt> right, compositing it into the page (there might be other things on top of it, css effects, whatever else)
  63. # [02:09] <zewt> compared to simply telling opengl to output to a region inside a window
  64. # [02:09] <cabanier> zewt: yeah. it has to line up with the frame rate
  65. # [02:10] <cabanier> zewt: that might be hard + lots of overhead
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  67. # [02:11] <cabanier> zewt: have an efficient way to pass big bitmaps/structures between workers seems more useful
  68. # [02:11] <zewt> (sorry, it's been a few years since I've been in native opengl land, so I'm rusty on the details)
  69. # [02:14] <cabanier> zewt: it's been a while for me too :-)
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  71. # [02:16] <cabanier> zewt: we need font services in workers too, loading of resources, etc
  72. # [02:17] <zewt> https://zewt.org/~glenn/curves/ things like this make sense to do in a worker, non-realtime stuff
  73. # [02:17] <zewt> (that's webgl, not 2d canvas)
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  75. # [02:19] <zewt> i've done image processing with opengl that takes on the order of 60 seconds to run (wasn't web, just native stuff), workers would be particularly helpful there
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  77. # [02:25] <cabanier> zewt: yes. usefull for offscreen things.
  78. # [02:26] <cabanier> zewt: pdf.js seems to work well with workers too. rendering pages in workers
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  80. # [02:32] <cabanier> (cooking)
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  96. # [03:35] <roc> cabanier: where did that GL-in-workers feedback you quoted come from?
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  98. # [03:37] <cabanier> roc: https://www.khronos.org/webgl/public-mailing-list/archives/1306/msg00050.html
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  100. # [03:37] <roc> ta
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  102. # [03:44] <roc> the issue of synchronizing with DOM state sounds like it wouldn't apply to games so much
  103. # [03:46] <roc> And the game developers I've talked to are obsessed with stable frame rate just as much as input latency. Workers would help the former, and support for delivering input events to workers could be added separately.
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  116. # [04:29] <cabanier> roc: it's not so much DOM as it is synchronizing with the framerate. Is there a requestAF for a worker?
  117. # [04:38] <roc> I'm not sure. It's obviously needed, but it's not hard.
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  122. # [04:51] <cabanier> roc: can you efficiently sync textures between threads? or is it gpu->cpu->gpu
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  125. # [05:34] <roc> that depends on drivers and platform.
  126. # [05:34] <roc> but typically you can.
  127. # [05:36] <roc> If you can't, getting WebGL to work well with asynchronous compositing would be pretty hard.
  128. # [05:40] <cabanier> http://www.equalizergraphics.com/documentation/parallelOpenGLFAQ.html
  129. # [05:40] <cabanier> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/11097170/multithreaded-rendering-on-opengl
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  134. # [05:48] <cabanier> https://developer.apple.com/library/mac/#documentation/graphicsimaging/conceptual/opengl-macprogguide/opengl_threading/opengl_threading.html
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  137. # [05:55] <roc> those don't really answer the question you asked.
  138. # [05:56] <roc> for example, on Mac you have IOSurfaces, and on Windows you have DXGI texture sharing, which work well.
  139. # [05:57] <cabanier> it seems that it's possible
  140. # [05:58] <cabanier> canvas2s draws to a texture that you can then composite
  141. # [05:58] <cabanier> so drawing in a thread and compositing in main thread
  142. # [05:58] <roc> everyone's compositing in a dedicated thread now.
  143. # [05:58] <cabanier> unsure how you'd synchronize though
  144. # [06:01] <cabanier> do you have a paper on your compositor? does canvas draw in the compositor thread or in the main one?
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  146. # [06:29] <cabanier> roc: if it's like this: http://dev.chromium.org/developers/design-documents/compositor-thread-architecture it should work. you'd need requestAF in the worker so you can sync it
  147. # [06:30] <cabanier> roc: and the compositor would have to wait for both threads to be idle, I *think*
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  157. # [07:48] <roc> our is like that, but we don't block the main thread.
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  258. # [15:02] <SP33D> Hello Sirs is any one here that can assist me with registering 2 tags?
  259. # [15:03] <SP33D> i Try to sign up my self and got adviced by the page to ask here since the site is under attak
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  261. # [15:06] <SP33D> i need og:site_name and rights added to the list where og:site_name spezifis the titel opengraph tag and rights is where some Copyright infos are set do you need any more info or can give a account?
  262. # [15:06] * Quits: nessy (~silviapf@202-159-131-199.dyn.iinet.net.au) (Quit: Leaving.)
  263. # [15:15] <gsnedders> SP33D: See <http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/FAQ#Is_there_a_process_for_adding_new_features_to_a_specification.3F>
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  272. # [15:37] <SP33D> uhhhh
  273. # [15:37] <SP33D> this gets more hard as i tought thx for the infos :D
  274. # [15:37] <SP33D> now i know why no one has added this specs :D
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  319. # [17:44] <annevk> Why the fuck does GitHub keep scrolling back up in a diff-view
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  321. # [17:44] <annevk> If it's out of focus. That's super annoying
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  336. # [18:05] <SP33D> annevk not as anoying as getting seo fails coz missing 2 lines in a wiki
  337. # [18:05] <SP33D> :D
  338. # [18:05] <SP33D> and adding to lines to the wiki depends on writing a book
  339. # [18:05] <SP33D> ::D
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  345. # [18:13] * GPHemsley feels GitHub does a lot of annoying things.
  346. # [18:13] <GPHemsley> SP33D: If you need a wiki username, just ask for one.
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  349. # [18:13] <SP33D> i asked befor but then the answer was a link
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  351. # [18:14] <SP33D> and then i saw the link readed a bit around in the content and got annoyed
  352. # [18:14] <GPHemsley> SP33D: What is your desired username and e-mail address?
  353. # [18:14] <GPHemsley> That link refers to full-on new features.
  354. # [18:14] <SP33D> GPH probally i don't need one
  355. # [18:14] <SP33D> since the changes will not stay and all that
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  357. # [18:14] <GPHemsley> Well, that's up to you/
  358. # [18:14] <SP33D> i am simply confused i got a info that i need to add some tags to that wiki
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  360. # [18:14] <SP33D> and then there was a big problem
  361. # [18:14] <GPHemsley> In order to edit http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/MetaExtensions you need a wiki account
  362. # [18:15] <SP33D> and then i am allwoed to simply insert the both meta tags without writing a book to a existing member that maintaincs any specs or else?
  363. # [18:15] <GPHemsley> Well, your terms should be associated with a spec somewhere, but yes
  364. # [18:16] <GPHemsley> I am not the arbiter of that list, but I do have the power to give you editing privileges to it
  365. # [18:16] <SP33D> thats nice my desired name and email ist name: DirektSPEED mail: info@dspeed.de
  366. # [18:16] <SP33D> i only wanna make 2 new additions "rights" for copyright infos and "og:site_name" since its opengraph sitename tag
  367. # [18:16] <SP33D> thats it
  368. # [18:16] <SP33D> :D
  369. # [18:17] <GPHemsley> SP33D: OK, check your e-mail.
  370. # [18:17] <annevk> SP33D: everyone can add proposals there without problems
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  373. # [18:18] <SP33D> befor i got this answer 15:13:02 - gsnedders: SP33D: See <http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/FAQ#Is_there_a_process_for_adding_new_features_to_a_specification.3F>;
  374. # [18:18] * Quits: danielfilho (~danielfil@200.232.113.107) (Write error: Connection reset by peer)
  375. # [18:18] <SP33D> then i readed it a bit and then got realy bad hurted in my heart and head
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  377. # [18:18] <GPHemsley> Yeah, that was the wrong response to this request.
  378. # [18:18] <GPHemsley> That is a response to another type of request.
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  380. # [18:19] <GPHemsley> Which you do not appear to be making.
  381. # [18:19] <annevk> SP33D: that's for features that need to go into browsers
  382. # [18:19] * danielfilho is now known as danielfilho|w
  383. # [18:19] <SP33D> ya thats maybe if some one reqests to rename World Wide Web to anything else
  384. # [18:19] <annevk> SP33D: although for long term <meta name> values I guess it's kinda similar
  385. # [18:19] <annevk> but just registering some values you use is trivial
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  387. # [18:27] <SP33D> thx a lot
  388. # [18:27] <SP33D> that helped much
  389. # [18:28] <SP33D> even if i don't understand proposal and all that stuff that is there
  390. # [18:28] <SP33D> its nice now :D
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  441. # [20:01] <annevk> oh GPHemsley, Satyam requested via email, fwiw
  442. # [20:03] <annevk> SP33D: you might want to add some links so others can figure out where these values are defined
  443. # [20:03] <annevk> SP33D: helps evaluating proposals ;)
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  453. # [20:22] <Ms2ger> annevk, btw, do you happen to have outstanding changes in your xref repo?
  454. # [20:23] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachy@cm-84.215.104.248.getinternet.no)
  455. # [20:23] <annevk> Ms2ger: not anymore ;)
  456. # [20:23] <Ms2ger> Thanks
  457. # [20:24] <Hixie_> abarth: what's the status of https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/user-interface-safety/raw-file/tip/user-interface-safety.html#frame-options ?
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  459. # [20:26] <Hixie_> anyone know anything about the status of doing seamless iframes cross-origin ?
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  462. # [20:28] <annevk> I know that I'm way behind on the event stuff and that I hate the event stuff
  463. # [20:29] <annevk> In particular the event requirements of Shadow DOM and seamless iframes combined is ...
  464. # [20:29] <Ms2ger> I should write some tests
  465. # [20:29] * Ms2ger sighs
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  468. # [20:30] <annevk> I guess I should convert these URL tests into some reusable format too and then expand on them.
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  474. # [20:47] <annevk> JakeA: http://url.spec.whatwg.org/#dom-url has an example for document.baseURI now
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  491. # [21:24] <Ms2ger> Really, http://wiki.ecmascript.org/doku.php?id=strawman:binary_integer_literals
  492. # [21:31] <jgraham> Why not?
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  494. # [21:34] <odinho> annevk: If you get lots of minions on a testtwf-happening, you could couch people to do converting.
  495. # [21:34] <odinho> Converting works rather well for events like that, because it has low bar of entry.
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  498. # [21:37] <jgraham> odinho: s/well/badly/ and s/because.*$/because no one wants to do it/
  499. # [21:38] <Ms2ger> Also, writing tests for anything that isn't fancy
  500. # [21:38] <jgraham> At least the only example I remember of it happening was the apache cordova thing, and those guys were being paid or something
  501. # [21:39] <jgraham> (or, if they weren't being paid they at least had the pre-determined goal of doing conversions)
  502. # [21:39] <odinho> Hmm. The people in webappsec has been converting a bit. Although not super successfully.
  503. # [21:39] <odinho> Yea, might be true that.
  504. # [21:40] <jgraham> Yeah, testtwf has an unfortunate bias towards the shiny
  505. # [21:40] <odinho> But actually having a list of tests that needs to be written (even if they already are, but don't show them) is easy.
  506. # [21:40] <odinho> Only having one test-file already on the go.
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  508. # [21:40] <odinho> URL's are quite shiny, don'tchathink?
  509. # [21:40] <odinho> urls blabla
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  511. # [21:50] <jgraham> Pretty sure that urls are duller than dull to most people
  512. # [21:51] <jgraham> Even the IETF don't think that there's any problems left to solve
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  515. # [21:54] <odinho> Easy to upsell. You'll be working on URLS MAN IT*S THE THING THAT EVERYONE USE!!11
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  528. # [22:16] <annevk> odinho: it shouldn't be much work once I've figured out how I want to do it
  529. # [22:16] <annevk> odinho: now if someone else wants to sign up for that, they can do it :)
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  532. # [22:17] <annevk> Ms2ger: has been in the spec for over a year reportedly
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  534. # [22:22] <GPHemsley> annevk: An admin@ one? (If so, please reply to it so I can keep track.)
  535. # [22:22] <annevk> GPHemsley: no
  536. # [22:22] <GPHemsley> ah, then it doesn't matter :)
  537. # [22:22] <GPHemsley> or, I guess it does
  538. # [22:22] <GPHemsley> but whatever
  539. # [22:22] <GPHemsley> :P
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  547. # [22:29] <jpwhiting> MikeSmith: btw, in my patch I changed build/build.py to add a buildSchemaDriverSta, since we are using a custom rnc file for smart tv alliance specification, but I'm not sure if that's even required
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  578. # [23:08] <Hixie_> i think i might start summarising feature requests we've received by e-mail, and filing bugs for them, so that there's more visibility into what features have been requested
  579. # [23:09] <Hixie_> can anyone think of a problem with doing that?
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  596. # [23:36] <annevk> Hixie_: sounds good
  597. # [23:36] <annevk> Hixie_: better tracking of bugs you're not cc'd on would be nice though
  598. # [23:36] <annevk> Hixie_: some kind of stream, though I guess we might have that already somehow?
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  601. # [23:41] <Hixie_> annevk: yeah dunno
  602. # [23:41] <Hixie_> annevk: you can watch contributor@whatwg.org, i think that covers most bugs?
  603. # [23:41] <Hixie_> or just watch me
  604. # [23:42] <annevk> yeah, I guess I can setup something
  605. # [23:42] <annevk> I kinda liked the HTML situation with the mailing list, so I could just visit the archive every couple of days and browse
  606. # [23:43] <annevk> rather than have it all in my inbox
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  609. # [23:44] <Hixie_> hmmmm
  610. # [23:45] <Hixie_> you can get a bug list of bugs that are assigned to me that have changed recently
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  618. # Session Close: Tue Jul 16 00:00:01 2013

The end :)