/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2013-07-23 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue Jul 23 00:00:00 2013
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  19. # [00:43] <dbaron> abarth, btw, if memory serves, the reason Opera had to implement XSLT was because Google Maps used it when Google Maps was initially released
  20. # [00:44] <abarth> dbaron: interesting
  21. # [00:44] <abarth> dbaron: I heard stories about arm-twisting by IBM
  22. # [00:44] <dbaron> abarth, which implies, perhaps, that google maps may still use it
  23. # [00:44] <dbaron> abarth, I seem to remember there being something that exposed XSLT in the maps API...
  24. # [00:45] <abarth> https://www.ibm.com/developerworks/community/blogs/HermannSW/entry/google_maps_api_and_xslt3?lang=en ?
  25. # [00:46] <abarth> that just looks like someone at IBM layering XSLT over the maps API
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  27. # [00:47] <abarth> It's entirely possible we'll break some things
  28. # [00:47] <abarth> the Google C++ Style Guide uses XSLT
  29. # [00:47] <abarth> so I'm expecting angry emails from Chromium developers :)_
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  31. # [00:47] <zewt> nothing like people who use xslt writing style guides
  32. # [00:48] <dbaron> https://developers.google.com/maps/documentation/javascript/v2/reference#GXslt
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  34. # [00:49] <abarth> "The Google Maps JavaScript API Version 2 was officially deprecated on May 19, 2010. The original deprecation period has been extended from May 19, 2013 until November 19, 2013. As of this date, all applications requesting v2 will be served a special, wrapped version of the v3 API instead. We expect this wrapped version of the API will work for most simple
  35. # [00:49] <abarth> maps, but we strongly encourage you to migrate your code to version 3 of the Maps JavaScript API before this date."
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  37. # [00:50] <dbaron> yeah, I tried to migrate, and gave up, because what my app that uses v2 is doing can't be done in v3, it seems... :-(
  38. # [00:51] <zewt> i'm pretty leery of building anything around google apis these days
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  44. # [00:54] <abarth> zewt: In this case, the API update appears to be helping us because I don't see any mention of XSLT in v3
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  81. # [01:34] <rniwa> dbaron: yt?
  82. # [01:34] <dbaron> rniwa, yes
  83. # [01:34] <rniwa> dbaron: hi
  84. # [01:34] <rniwa> dbaron: i'm reading http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS2/visudet.html#blockwidth
  85. # [01:35] <rniwa> dbaron: and it appears to me that in the over-constrained case such as http://jsfiddle.net/fezec/EVuHR/1/
  86. # [01:35] <rniwa> dbaron: we're supposed to adjusting the right margin.
  87. # [01:35] <rniwa> dbaron: however, getComputedStyle(document.querySelector('p')).marginRight in the above case for example appear to return the specified value
  88. # [01:35] <rniwa> dbaron: on both Firefox and WebKit
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  90. # [01:36] <rniwa> dbaron: does that make any sense? or am I misunderstanding something/
  91. # [01:37] <dbaron> rniwa, it's probably technically a bug, though it's also possible we should change the spec for getComputedStyle
  92. # [01:37] <rniwa> dbaron: yeah
  93. # [01:37] <rniwa> dbaron: given that both Firefox and WebKit have been returning the specified values in those two cases
  94. # [01:37] <rniwa> dbaron: this could cause a backward compat. issues if we do change our behaviors
  95. # [01:38] * rniwa wonders what IE returns
  96. # [01:38] <dbaron> rniwa, I don't think you know that -- it might be nobody will notice.
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  98. # [01:38] <rniwa> dbaron: yeah, i don't have data to back it up
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  100. # [01:39] <rniwa> dbaron: but for other technical reasons, i'd rather not use used values here
  101. # [01:39] <rniwa> dbaron: e.g. it'll require us to do an actual layout if we had to return the used value
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  103. # [01:42] <rniwa> dbaron: i just checked. IE also returns 100px
  104. # [01:42] <rniwa> dbaron: so it's probably the spec that needs to change.
  105. # [01:43] <rniwa> dbaron: thanks for the help!
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  180. # [06:11] <annevk> rafaelw: I updated the bug, fwiw
  181. # [06:15] <annevk> http://kenneth.io/blog/2013/07/15/the-messy-state-of-web-notifications-in-chrome-safari-blink-webkit/ seems fucked
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  214. # [08:06] <matjas> is http://bugzilla.validator.nu/ timing out for anyone else?
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  217. # [08:12] <MikeSmith> matjas: yeah
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  220. # [08:13] <MikeSmith> hsivonen_ has an ongoing issue with load on that server
  221. # [08:14] <MikeSmith> lately it's made that bugzilla almost unusable most of the time
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  234. # [08:37] <ondras> annevk: sorry for being afk; it was already night in my time zone. my true name is Ondřej Žára, but your version is of course allright as well :)
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  273. # [09:39] <matjas> MikeSmith: https://bitbucket.org/validator/validator/pull-request/4/use-a-monospaced-font-for-some-form-fields/diff btw (not sure if you’re getting notifications for PRs)
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  310. # [10:56] <MikeSmith> matjas: thanks yeah I did see that
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  366. # [13:09] <EGreg> hey guys
  367. # [13:10] <EGreg> is there a way to dynamically add scripts to an HTML document at runtime, and have them download in parallel yet execute in order?
  368. # [13:10] <EGreg> async? defer?
  369. # [13:10] <EGreg> async+defer?
  370. # [13:10] <EGreg> I am looking to support IE8+
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  375. # [13:17] <EGreg> http://www.html5rocks.com/en/tutorials/speed/script-loading/ !
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  381. # [13:50] <matjas> TIL IE permits `;` in hostnames, e.g. http://example.com;.coredump.cx/
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  386. # [14:03] <MikeSmith> matjas: I wonder if the URL spec handles those as expected
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  395. # [14:30] <galant> what is browsers support for zoom property, does browsers support it?
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  399. # [14:37] <SimonSapin> galant: it’s non standard, IE only
  400. # [14:38] <galant> no webkit supports it
  401. # [14:38] <galant> too
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  403. # [14:38] <galant> I want to make startrek like effect when their ship goes into warp ^^
  404. # [14:38] <SimonSapin> have you tried CSS transforms?
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  406. # [14:45] <galant> MAN this SCALE ISA COOL ^^
  407. # [14:45] <galant> isa/is
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  478. # [17:19] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
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  486. # [17:38] <Jasper> I remember an older draft of "Web Notifications" supporting full HTML content in the body of a notification. Has this been removed?
  487. # [17:38] <Jasper> I just checked the latest draft and it doesn't say how to render a notification.
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  489. # [17:39] <Jasper> ( http://notifications.spec.whatwg.org/ )
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  510. # [18:25] <Ms2ger> Jasper, yeah, it was removed because native notifications don't support that
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  515. # [18:31] <Jasper> Ms2ger, OK, cool. I was hoping it would be removed, since I could imagine web notifications used as a browser-approved, unblockable popup ability.
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  519. # [18:39] <MikeSmith> Jasper: web notifications are opt-in
  520. # [18:39] <MikeSmith> per-origin
  521. # [18:40] <MikeSmith> users have to explicitly grant perms
  522. # [18:40] <Jasper> I thought Safari didn't implement that right now...
  523. # [18:40] <MikeSmith> dunno
  524. # [18:40] <MikeSmith> but if so they're not conforming to the spec
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  530. # [18:52] <Ms2ger> http://kenneth.io/blog/2013/07/15/the-messy-state-of-web-notifications-in-chrome-safari-blink-webkit/
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  542. # [19:06] <Hixie> anyone know if gecko has any plans to update its <menu> implementation to match the spec? (the spec was changed at some point to more closely match firefox, but there were some things that didn't quite match firefox for sanity reasons)
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  544. # [19:08] <annevk> ondras: will be fixed soonish
  545. # [19:08] <annevk> Hixie: haven't heard anything with regards to that
  546. # [19:08] <Ms2ger> Me neither
  547. # [19:08] <Ms2ger> Who did that? janv?
  548. # [19:09] <Hixie> and sicking, i believe, yeah
  549. # [19:10] <Ms2ger> I can file a bug
  550. # [19:10] <Hixie> that would be good, thanks
  551. # [19:10] <Hixie> cc me?
  552. # [19:10] <Hixie> ian@hixie.ch
  553. # [19:11] <Ms2ger> Boo, :hixie doesn't work
  554. # [19:11] <Hixie> 'hixie does
  555. # [19:11] <Hixie> or, you know, just "hixie"
  556. # [19:11] <Hixie> i don't understand this colon convention
  557. # [19:12] <Hixie> it's like, let's take a perfectly good system that works by substring match, and require it to match by precise match.
  558. # [19:12] <Ms2ger> Interestingly, there's a ian@hixie.ch <xixaxnxhx@xgxoxoxgxlxex.xcxoxmx-invalid.tld>
  559. # [19:12] <Hixie> o_O
  560. # [19:12] <Hixie> wtf
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  562. # [19:12] <Hixie> who would do that
  563. # [19:12] <Ms2ger> No idea
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  565. # [19:13] <Hixie> file another bug :-P
  566. # [19:13] <Hixie> to have that removed :-P
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  568. # [19:13] <Hixie> anyway the reason i ask about the menu thing
  569. # [19:13] <Hixie> was that i was curious about author experience with merging menus vs replacing menus
  570. # [19:13] <Hixie> trying to work out if i should add this "nodefault" attribute that people asked for
  571. # [19:14] <Hixie> maybe called "replace-system-menu" or something else better than the vague "nodefault"
  572. # [19:14] <Ms2ger> Dunno if I'd want to allow that, as a user
  573. # [19:15] <Hixie> well jan and sicking were arguing that authors won't use it if we don't provide it, either as an option, or, failing that, as the only behaviour.
  574. # [19:15] <Hixie> (personally i'm with you)
  575. # [19:15] <Hixie> either way, though, i don't want to add features like that before we have more implementation experience with what the spec actually says
  576. # [19:16] <Hixie> in particular since MikeSmith was arguing we should rename <menu type=popup> to something pithier
  577. # [19:16] <Hixie> (though we haven't been able to find something good yet)
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  588. # [19:28] <Domenic_> I think if authors (by which I mean our UX designers) are going to use merged menus, then the merged menus needs to be really unintrusive, i.e. a single menu item.
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  590. # [19:30] <Domenic_> i would even consider making that a requirement? because if someone does Firefox-style merger with browser junk all over the place, <menu> will get no traction.
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  602. # [19:42] <Hixie> Domenic_: that's the argument i've heard, yeah. i don't understand why authors hate users so much. :-)
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  619. # [19:54] <annevk> Hixie: of course, you can say that, but by not giving authors what they want, you're making the situation for users worse ;)
  620. # [19:54] <annevk> Witness e.g. form controls
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  622. # [19:55] <Hixie> that's the argument people use for drm, too
  623. # [19:55] <Hixie> "my not letting authors screw users over, you're hurting the users!"
  624. # [19:55] <Hixie> or, you know, authors could just not screw the users over
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  627. # [19:58] <annevk> DRM seems different. There's no way to do DRM without browsers providing hooks (either plugin or DRM-focused plugin hooks). Form controls however can be created by some HTML/CSS/JavaScript that's utterly inaccessible.
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  638. # [20:18] <Hixie> annevk: you can do drm without browsers providing hook, you just don't do it on the web
  639. # [20:18] <Hixie> the point is you shouldn't do it at all
  640. # [20:19] <Hixie> i think form controls is different than menu
  641. # [20:19] <Hixie> for form controls, we just didn't _have_ form controls
  642. # [20:19] <annevk> I don't think so. Developers can innovate much faster than browsers with UI.
  643. # [20:19] <Hixie> it wasn't that they weren't as pretty or whatever. at least, not for most custom controls. groups like google are a special case.
  644. # [20:20] <annevk> No Google is not. Styling form controls has been a top feature request for over a decade.
  645. # [20:20] <Hixie> ok
  646. # [20:20] <Hixie> i don't really know what we're arguing at this point
  647. # [20:20] <Hixie> i'm not disagreeing with you
  648. # [20:21] <annevk> I guess what I'm saying is that developers need full control over what happens when you right click, including playing a movie in the popup.
  649. # [20:21] <Hixie> o_O
  650. # [20:22] <Hixie> when i tried providing something that was extensible to do that, gecko didn't implement it
  651. # [20:22] <Hixie> instead y'all did <menuitem>
  652. # [20:22] <Hixie> and i had to scale the spec back to do that instead
  653. # [20:22] <annevk> Sounds like my position might be different from sicking :)
  654. # [20:23] <annevk> Sorry for the added confusion.
  655. # [20:23] <Hixie> what you're describing is not a context menu, which is what i was talking about -- it's a popup, which is something i tried to spec years ago in xbl2
  656. # [20:23] <Hixie> but since nobody implemented that...
  657. # [20:24] <Hixie> oh actually it wasn't in xbl2, it was in web-controls
  658. # [20:24] <Hixie> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-controls/current-work/#the-elementui
  659. # [20:24] <Hixie> showPopup()
  660. # [20:24] <Hixie> we're still going to need that, for when people implement <select> with web components
  661. # [20:25] <Hixie> unfortunately aria basically killed that approach, instead making their hacky approach the way you do this
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  665. # [20:34] <Hixie> heycam|away: ping
  666. # [20:34] <Hixie> heycam|away: (wondering about news on https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=22346 )
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  668. # [20:36] <SteveF> hixie: "unfortunately aria basically killed that approach, instead making their hacky approach the way you do this" how did aria do that?
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  682. # [20:58] <Domenic_> Hixie: my point was that you could probably get away without replace-system-menu if you mandated that the system menu get shoved into a single menu item. it might be a compromise that makes both the keep-the-system-menu and kill-the-system-menu camps happy.
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  691. # [21:19] <Yuhong> annevk: I don't think mutation events are going away anytime soon when IE9/10 do not support mutation observers.
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  693. # [21:19] <zewt> ... nginx disables tls compression? wtf?
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  696. # [21:22] <zewt> man, why is it hard to get stream-level compression over http
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  702. # [21:35] <zewt> and ios's https api doesn't turn it on? madness
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  705. # [21:37] <Yuhong> annevk: And I expect the effects of this to persist long after IE9/10 dies.
  706. # [21:38] <Hixie> Domenic_: we can't really mandate anything, it's UI. There might not be any visible menu items, it could be an audio browser.
  707. # [21:38] <Ms2ger> Hixie, but we can suggest
  708. # [21:39] <Hixie> yeah, we can certainly suggest more than we do now
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  710. # [21:39] <Yuhong> IE11 finally supports mutation observers, BTW.
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  730. # [22:15] <Hixie> annevk: what's the status of http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-whatwg-archive/2013Mar/0030.html -- do you still think it needs changes?
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  734. # [22:19] <annevk> Hixie: Well, I do think Fetch needs those hooks. I also quite haven't figured out how to do them...
  735. # [22:20] <Hixie> even with that e-mail answering my questions, i don't really understand what you want changed
  736. # [22:20] <annevk> Hixie: I want hooks for XMLHttpRequest and ensured tasks for "headers in", "body bytes in", "all bytes in"
  737. # [22:21] <annevk> Hixie: and a hook for "transmitting to server"
  738. # [22:21] <Hixie> aah ok
  739. # [22:21] <Hixie> well that's easy enough
  740. # [22:22] <Hixie> we have one for "all bytes in"
  741. # [22:22] <Hixie> you want to just add them to your spec?
  742. # [22:22] <annevk> Hixie: I guess, I'm not sure what phrasing to use
  743. # [22:23] <Hixie> can't you just queue the tasks?
  744. # [22:23] <Hixie> i don't understand the trouble
  745. # [22:24] <annevk> Hixie: The trouble I have is creating a task that has a specific hook.
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  747. # [22:24] <Hixie> "When the resource is available, or if there is an error of some description, queue a task that uses the resource as appropriate. If the resource can be processed incrementally, as, for instance, with a progressively interlaced JPEG or an HTML file, additional tasks may be queued to process the data as it is downloaded. The task source for these tasks is the networking task source."
  748. # [22:25] <annevk> So it's mostly the prose that makes it work? Nothing like queue a task annotated <b>headers available</b> or some such?
  749. # [22:26] <Hixie> or for "headers in": "Immediately after receiving the last header for the resource, or immediately before sending the first task to process the resource's data, if there are no headers, queue a task to <dfn>process the headers</dfn> of the resource, passing it all the metadata received." or some such
  750. # [22:29] <Hixie> (let me know if that does not sufficiently address your requests in that e-mail)
  751. # [22:29] <annevk> Hixie: I think that's what I was looking for, thanks.
  752. # [22:29] <Hixie> np
  753. # [22:30] <annevk> Hixie: In particular what I don't want is queue tasks for transmitting towards the server to trigger "spec code paths" that listen for networking tasks but only care about downloading. We might just have to clarify those listeners.
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  766. # [22:41] <annevk> I wonder if Yuhong thinks he's the only one keeping track of mutation stuff...
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  770. # [22:49] <Hixie> annevk: k
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  777. # [23:09] <annevk> TabAtkins: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/mozilla.dev.platform/3q-rId_KMpU
  778. # [23:09] <annevk> TabAtkins: please fix :)
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  781. # [23:16] <annevk> heycam|away: fwiw, I hate the name EnsureUTF16, but that's prolly a good thing
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  790. # [23:25] <annevk> smaug____: yo, could you review my fix in that mutation bug?
  791. # [23:28] <smaug____> looking
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  793. # [23:29] <smaug____> er, what fix
  794. # [23:29] <smaug____> the spec looks the same
  795. # [23:30] <smaug____> oh, the bug
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  800. # [23:37] <galant> do you have any idea why it can be so I can't click some paragraphs?
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  802. # [23:38] * toyoshim is now known as toyoshiAw
  803. # [23:38] <galant> I have 6 paragraphs in a section, they have click event assigned, when I rotate by X axis the section for 360 deg I can't click and select the text from the 2 paragraphs that are on the bottom of the seciton others I can, they should change color on click, butwhen section is rotated 0 deg by X axis I can select text and click all paragrahs why?
  804. # [23:40] <annevk> smaug____: so yeah, those transient observers, that's what the context object bit is about
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  806. # [23:42] <smaug____> ah, right
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  814. # [23:47] <galant> I have this
  815. # [23:47] <galant> http://jsfiddle.net/CrUYH/1/
  816. # [23:47] <galant> ups sry
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  827. # Session Close: Wed Jul 24 00:00:00 2013

The end :)