/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2013-07-28 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sun Jul 28 00:00:00 2013
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  22. # [01:00] <galant> I am confused is html5 official name or html?
  23. # [01:00] <galant> for the html language
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  36. # [01:59] <TabAtkins> The WHATWG spec, which is the one you should be reading, defines the HTML language.
  37. # [02:00] <TabAtkins> galant: It is unversioned.
  38. # [02:00] <TabAtkins> galant: That's as "official" as you're going to get.
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  43. # [02:24] <zewt> things browsers need: an un-reload button
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  45. # [02:24] <zewt> reload ebay search, go "wait what was that" right as it goes away
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  52. # [02:42] <galant> how many webpages arround use HTML ?
  53. # [02:43] <galant> TabAtkins, thanks
  54. # [02:45] <galant> does browsers read any other language other than html?
  55. # [02:54] <TabAtkins> You mean beyond Javascript and CSS? Yes - all browsers also understand SVG, and some understand MathML.
  56. # [02:55] <TabAtkins> And all of them can read arbitrary XML, though they won't do anything useful with it.
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  61. # [02:59] <galant> are there any webpages made in xml xstl svg ..?
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  64. # [03:01] <pdr> galant, there are some experimental svg-only pages, but no major ones afaik.
  65. # [03:11] <galant> can I make letters to not make new lines if they reach end of the element width?
  66. # [03:12] <galant> pdr, ok thanks
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  76. # [04:16] <galant> is there any logic behind colapsing margins or I should learn them as they are ?
  77. # [04:28] <Hixie> galant: Google is aware of at least a trillion unique web pages, but nobody knows the real number, and it depends on what you mean exactly
  78. # [04:28] <Hixie> as for margin collapsing, there's a logic
  79. # [04:28] <Hixie> but it's a bit hard to explain over irc
  80. # [04:37] <galant> Hixie, please, can google webmaster tools and google analytics slow down my webpage if I put code snippets on my servers?
  81. # [04:38] <galant> I need to read more on collapsing margins they confuse me "S
  82. # [04:38] <galant> I meant, around how many webpages are made in languages different than html- i mean about structure like html&css
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  84. # [04:44] <Hixie> i don't know much about google webmaster tools and google analytics, but it's unlikely that google's servers will be the bottleneck on your site most of the time
  85. # [04:45] <Hixie> i don't understand your other questions
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  94. # [06:03] <gallant> ok thanks Hixie
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  139. # [10:59] <gallant> which kind of element are form input elements?
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  160. # [12:09] <gallant> what is the keywords attribute max value? or how many keywords I can put in <meta name="keywords"
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  172. # [13:57] <ThePieMan> can anybody help me?
  173. # [13:58] <ThePieMan> hello
  174. # [13:58] <ThePieMan> anybody reply please
  175. # [13:58] <ThePieMan> anybody here?
  176. # [13:59] <nessy> say what you need
  177. # [13:59] <ThePieMan> ok i may sound like real noob, but how to make website like this one? http://www.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/os/ can u suggest me something?
  178. # [14:00] <ThePieMan> nessy, can u help me?
  179. # [14:02] <ThePieMan> any reply please
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  186. # [14:19] <gallant> mayday mayday
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  192. # [15:24] * GPHemsley wonders why there is a sudden upsurge in people thinking this is a web development help channel
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  201. # [16:12] <hendry> MikeSmith: hsivonen_ http://validator.nu/ is down for me btw
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  232. # Session Close: Sun Jul 28 18:38:37 2013
  233. #
  234. # Session Start: Sun Jul 28 18:38:37 2013
  235. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  239. # [19:44] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ & http://logbot.glob.com.au/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
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  263. # [21:04] <GPHemsley> TabAtkins: Is there (or should there be) a way to create a counter as if an item was insert between two existing items (e.g. 10A between 10 and 11)?
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  266. # [21:05] <TabAtkins> There can be, sure. Set up a nested counter scope with a different counter style, and use counters() to render them.
  267. # [21:06] <GPHemsley> interesting
  268. # [21:07] <TabAtkins> For example, assuming a single <ol> where you started with some numbered items, and later amended the list to contain more items but wanted to indicate them specially so as to not disturb the original numbering...
  269. # [21:07] <TabAtkins> Like <ol><li>old<li class=new>new<li>old</ol> being rendered as "1. old 1A. new 2. old"
  270. # [21:07] <TabAtkins> Then...
  271. # [21:09] <TabAtkins> ol { counter-reset: old; } li:not(.new) { counter-reset: new; } li::marker { content: counter(old, decimal) ". "; } li.new::marker { content: counter(old, decimal) counter(new, upper-alpha) ". "; }
  272. # [21:09] <TabAtkins> (Sorry, realized you can't use counters() for this if you want them to be siblings. If the new things were children you'd be fine.)
  273. # [21:10] <TabAtkins> The ABC counter would get reset by each old item, thus restarting the count for its new items.
  274. # [21:10] <GPHemsley> Ah, thanks for the explanation.
  275. # [21:10] <GPHemsley> This was merely a thought experiment. :)
  276. # [21:11] <GPHemsley> Though I'm glad to see that counters are already this powerful.
  277. # [21:11] <GPHemsley> TabAtkins: You do good work! :)
  278. # [21:11] <TabAtkins> I have nothing to do with this - this is old functionality.
  279. # [21:11] <TabAtkins> The interaction counters can have with siblings is indeed powerful.
  280. # [21:11] <GPHemsley> Nevertheless, I stand by my statement. ;)
  281. # [21:12] <TabAtkins> Excepting the use of ::marker (use ::before instead), you can do my example with only CSS 2.1 stuff.
  282. # [21:12] <TabAtkins> But thanks. ^_^
  283. # [21:17] <annevk> I still think that most of the time numbering is not actually a presentational feature and we should not have put it in CSS.
  284. # [21:19] <GPHemsley> annevk: Where else would you have put it? Having to hand number things would be a pain.
  285. # [21:19] <GPHemsley> TabAtkins: The real question is, does anybody actually support counters? >_>
  286. # [21:19] <TabAtkins> Yes, they do. At least, well enough to pass the 2.1 tests.
  287. # [21:21] <GPHemsley> Well, Gecko does not appear to be one of them.
  288. # [21:21] <GPHemsley> even with ::before
  289. # [21:21] <annevk> GPHemsley: I would make something like <ol type=numberic> <li>old <li value=1A> new <li value=2> old work I think
  290. # [21:22] <annevk> Maybe instead of value call it marker, if we're doing this from scratch, etc.
  291. # [21:22] <GPHemsley> hmm
  292. # [21:22] <GPHemsley> I think that'd put a lot of burden on detecting exactly what "1A" means in that case
  293. # [21:23] <GPHemsley> I think you'd wind up with something that looks like the CSS solution in many respects anyway
  294. # [21:23] <GPHemsley> data:text/html,<!DOCTYPE html><style>ol { counter-reset: old; } li:not(.new) { counter-reset: new; } li::before { content: counter(old, decimal) ". "; } li.new::before { content: counter(old, decimal) counter(new, upper-alpha) ". "; }</style><ol><li>old<li class=new>new<li>old</ol>
  295. # [21:23] <GPHemsley> does not work in Gecko ^^
  296. # [21:24] <GPHemsley> or, rather, doesn't work correctly
  297. # [21:25] <GPHemsley> or Chrome, apparently
  298. # [21:25] <GPHemsley> indeed, Gecko and Chrome show the same results as each other for both ::marker and ::before
  299. # [21:26] <GPHemsley> (though the results are not identical for the two selectors)
  300. # [21:27] <GPHemsley> the "new" element shows "2. 00." with ::before
  301. # [21:27] <GPHemsley> between "1. 0." and "3. 0."
  302. # [21:28] <GPHemsley> (though all of this is known already, I think)
  303. # [21:28] <annevk> GPHemsley: 1A is just content, it's not really about meaning
  304. # [21:29] <annevk> GPHemsley: I mean, you don't have to be able to interpret it in order to display it
  305. # [21:29] <GPHemsley> annevk: Then how do you know what to do with an <li> after <li value=2>?
  306. # [21:29] <annevk> GPHemsley: you'd prolly have some amount of heuristics, key is mostly that this is content, not style
  307. # [21:30] <annevk> GPHemsley: as e.g. other content will want to refer to "1A" and not have that reference go away if the style sheet is changed
  308. # [21:30] <GPHemsley> annevk: I agree with that, but I don't think there's a good way around it.
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  310. # [21:30] <GPHemsley> though you could give each <li> an @id, no?
  311. # [21:31] <GPHemsley> and then use the id value to extract the CSS counter?
  312. # [21:31] <GPHemsley> as a way to reference it, that is
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  314. # [21:31] <GPHemsley> or somethink like that
  315. # [21:31] <GPHemsley> s/k/g/
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  320. # [22:06] <TabAtkins> GPHemsley: Sorry, I forgot to put counter-increments into that snippet.
  321. # [22:06] <TabAtkins> Add li { counter-increment: old; } li.new { counter-increment: old new; }
  322. # [22:07] <TabAtkins> And obviously add ol {list-style:none;} to turn off native marker rendering, so your ::before stands alone.
  323. # [22:09] <TabAtkins> Rather, li.new { counter-increment: new; }
  324. # [22:10] <TabAtkins> And (just tested), that works perfectly.
  325. # [22:10] <TabAtkins> data:text/html;charset=utf-8,%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3E%0A%3Cstyle%3E%0Aol%20%7B%20counter-reset%3A%20old%3B%20list-style%3Anone%3B%20%7D%0Ali%3Anot(.new)%20%7B%20counter-reset%3A%20new%3B%20counter-increment%3A%20old%3B%20%7D%0Ali.new%20%7B%20counter-increment%3A%20new%3B%20%7D%0Ali%3A%3Abefore%20%7B%20content%3A%20counter(old)%20%22.%20%22%3B%20%7D%0Ali.new%3A%
  326. # [22:10] <TabAtkins> 3Abefore%20%7B%20content%3A%20counter(old)%20counter(new%2C%20upper-alpha)%20%22.%20%22%3B%20%7D%0A%3C%2Fstyle%3E%0A%3Col%3E%3Cli%3Eold%3Cli%20class%3Dnew%3Enew%3Cli%3Eold%3C%2Fol%3E
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  345. # [22:34] <Yuhong> I wonder how complex a HTML5-style CSS spec would be.
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  347. # [22:34] <Yuhong> Or for that matter a HTML5-style spec for the Office 97-2003 binary file formats.
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  355. # [23:03] <SimonSapin> Yuhong: what do you mean, HTML5-style?
  356. # [23:04] <Yuhong> In the style of the WHATWG HTML spec.
  357. # [23:09] <matjas> annevk: thanks! is that `xhr.responseType = 'some-unsupported-type'` behavior specced? It doesn’t seem to be mentioned in http://xhr.spec.whatwg.org/#the-responsetype-attribute
  358. # [23:09] <matjas> …all browsers seem to do it, so i probably misunderstood the spec
  359. # [23:10] <annevk> matjas: it's because the given value in step 4 can only be one of the strings from the IDL
  360. # [23:10] <annevk> matjas: so if you don't implement one of the values, it wouldn't be in the IDL either in which case the algorithm would not be invoked (iirc)
  361. # [23:12] <annevk> matjas: enums are nice like that
  362. # [23:13] <matjas> so this spec doesn’t need to mention this explicitly, because it’s taken care of by IDL? got it.
  363. # [23:15] <annevk> yeah, if we add a new value "foo" we'd expand the enum, implementations of the old enum however would simply ignore "foo" and not change the value of responseType
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  366. # [23:18] <zcorpan> jgraham: Ms2ger: re http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20130727#l-238 - just do formdata.toString = function() { throw new Error(); };
  367. # [23:19] <Ms2ger> Interesting idea
  368. # [23:19] <Ms2ger> It does rely on overloading being implemented correctly, of course
  369. # [23:20] <gsnedders> I would be relatively surprised if it wasn't.
  370. # [23:21] <SimonSapin> Yuhong: and that is… ?
  371. # [23:21] <Ms2ger> I've seen quite a bit of pre-webidl overloading code in Gecko, and it's universally wrong :)
  372. # [23:21] <SimonSapin> more specifically
  373. # [23:22] <gsnedders> Ms2ger: Oh, it's not /entirely/ wrong. I expect it'll handle this. :P
  374. # [23:22] <Ms2ger> Possibly :)
  375. # [23:22] * Ms2ger is not an optimist
  376. # [23:24] <zcorpan> i hear Ms2ger is eager to write some tests :-)
  377. # [23:24] <Ms2ger> Nooooooo
  378. # [23:25] <zcorpan> :-|
  379. # [23:25] <Ms2ger> Doesn't mean that I won't.. ;)
  380. # [23:25] * Ms2ger looks at his todo list, sighs
  381. # [23:33] <zcorpan> Ms2ger: if you could also clean my windows, that'd be splendid. you'll get a coffee and a cardamom bun
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  383. # [23:33] <Ms2ger> It's very kind of you to offer that, but I don't think I'll take you up on it
  384. # [23:34] <Yuhong> I was referring to <Hixie> it appears that attempting to spec basically what browsers do has resulted in a spec about as complicated as browsers
  385. # [23:35] <matjas> http://mathiasbynens.be/demo/xhr-responsetype xhr.responseType tests, in case anyone cares
  386. # [23:35] <matjas> IE11 supports all but 'json'
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  388. # [23:35] * Joins: weinig (~weinig@24.130.60.35)
  389. # [23:36] <Ms2ger> matjas, there's a </a> on there that shouldn't be
  390. # [23:36] <matjas> Ms2ger: whoops, fixed
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  399. # [23:53] <zcorpan> hmmm. can someone confirm that the IE claim is true? https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=22800
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  402. # [23:59] <zcorpan> something like http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/2423 (though dunno if ie supports data: there)
  403. # Session Close: Mon Jul 29 00:00:00 2013

The end :)