/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2013-08-07 / end

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  193. # [11:30] <zcorpan> is http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/2433 an improvement on the readability of the diff? (click "rendered view", compare with http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker?from=8035&to=8036 )
  194. # [11:32] <Ms2ger> Interesting
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  196. # [11:33] <hasather> zcorpan: yea, that's a big improvement
  197. # [11:34] <zcorpan> now i wonder if it's good enough to implement it with a simple regex
  198. # [11:34] <zcorpan> simple regex will break with e.g. commented out tags
  199. # [11:35] <zcorpan> more complex regex can deal with that case but will still break with something else
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  201. # [11:39] <zcorpan> tags wrapping lines probably just won't work
  202. # [11:39] <zcorpan> unless somebody comes up with something clever
  203. # [11:42] <zcorpan> consider e.g. a diff like http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/2434
  204. # [11:45] <annevk> zcorpan: could you add a button to remove the elements for highlighting?
  205. # [11:46] <annevk> zcorpan: writing a simple tokenizer might be better
  206. # [11:47] <zcorpan> annevk: yeah. and forget the state when switching from a removed line to another type of line
  207. # [11:47] <annevk> zcorpan: and then we could remove the tags by default, maybe, that might look best
  208. # [11:47] <annevk> people have been asking for a no-tags-view
  209. # [11:48] <zcorpan> annevk: http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/2435
  210. # [11:49] <annevk> pretty cool
  211. # [11:49] <annevk> tokenizer would fix the <code \n title= issues
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  217. # [12:25] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: nice
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  219. # [12:34] <MikeSmith> Ms2ger: do you have an instance of https://bitbucket.org/ms2ger/test-runner on the Web somewhere?
  220. # [12:34] <MikeSmith> or does anybody else
  221. # [12:39] <Ms2ger> I think the webappsec people have a fork
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  224. # [12:50] <MikeSmith> ok
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  232. # [13:05] <annevk> So ArrayBuffer() and new ArrayBuffer() are identical.
  233. # [13:05] <annevk> I wonder if they did that because of compatibility or some other reason.
  234. # [13:06] * Krinkle|detached is now known as Krinkle
  235. # [13:07] <gsnedders> Even setting [[Prototype]]?
  236. # [13:09] <zcorpan> annevk: isn't it usual for constructors to have identical result when called without new?
  237. # [13:10] <annevk> zcorpan: see https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=22808 (I just emailed es-discuss about it)
  238. # [13:10] <gsnedders> zcorpan: If the [[Call]] returns an object, yes.
  239. # [13:11] <zcorpan> XMLHttpRequest() is the same as new XMLHttpRequest()
  240. # [13:12] <annevk> zcorpan: not in Chrome
  241. # [13:13] <zcorpan> oh. interesting. i thought everyone did that
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  244. # [13:23] <matjas> https://media.blackhat.com/us-13/US-13-Stone-Pixel-Perfect-Timing-Attacks-with-HTML5-WP.pdf
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  250. # [13:32] <Ms2ger> annevk, Chrome bug :)
  251. # [13:32] <annevk> Ms2ger: that depends on what we think is best
  252. # [13:33] <Ms2ger> Making them equivalent :)
  253. # [13:35] <annevk> false
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  257. # [13:56] <JakeA> annevk: Where is XmlHttpRequest defined for worker scopes?
  258. # [13:56] <annevk> JakeA: http://xhr.spec.whatwg.org/ defines it for both simultaneously
  259. # [13:57] <annevk> JakeA: see http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-dom/2013JulSep/0101.html for some general issues about making it clearer what happens in workers (though for XMLHttpRequest I think it's pretty clearly outlined in the specification already, although not in the best possible way yet)
  260. # [13:58] <JakeA> hah, that answers my second question
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  263. # [14:00] <JakeA> annevk: I can't actually find the definition, was expecting to see "partial interface WorkerGlobalScope" somewhere
  264. # [14:01] <JakeA> the xhr spec talks about workers, but can't find the bit where the interface is defined
  265. # [14:01] <annevk> JakeA: the interface is shared basically
  266. # [14:01] <annevk> JakeA: IDL puts them on the global
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  272. # [14:08] <JakeA> I think my inexperience with IDL is showing. I see the definition of the XMLHttpRequest constructor, but I don't see the bit that says this constructor should be a property of Window instances (or WorkerGlobalScope instances)
  273. # [14:13] <JakeA> annevk: I see "If the JavaScript global environment is a worker environment, implementations must act as if Document and Document? in the above IDL were not exposed." - is that implicitly mandating that XMLHttpRequest should exist on WorkerGlobalScope?
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  280. # [14:39] <annevk> JakeA: no, that bit is defined by IDL
  281. # [14:40] <annevk> JakeA: see http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/WebIDL/#es-platform-objects
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  283. # [14:41] <annevk> JakeA: the bit that's currently missing is being explicit about the globals, hopefully that'll get fixed soonish
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  300. # [15:06] <JakeA> annevk: got ya
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  302. # [15:08] <JakeA> annevk: does that mean that HTMLDivElement should exist in a worker?
  303. # [15:08] <annevk> JakeA: everything Node is banned
  304. # [15:08] <annevk> JakeA: but again that's currently not as crystal clear as it could be
  305. # [15:09] <annevk> JakeA: see the email I pointed to and the bug report, once that's fixed the specifications will be better
  306. # [15:09] <JakeA> ahh ok
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  308. # [15:10] <JakeA> annevk: So, it looks like Promise doesn't currently exist in workers in Chrome, how would I explain in a ticket that it should be there?
  309. # [15:10] <JakeA> Trying to work out how this stuff is defined
  310. # [15:10] <annevk> JakeA: it sounds like you haven't read that email yet ;)
  311. # [15:11] <annevk> JakeA: note also that it was in reply to a guy from Google who is probably implementing promises in Chrome at the moment
  312. # [15:12] <JakeA> annevk: I wasn't clear if there was nothing in the spec to say they should be in workers, or whether _something_ is there but it isn't clear
  313. # [15:12] <annevk> JakeA: fair
  314. # [15:12] <JakeA> annevk: Is it simply undefined at the moment, aside from that email?
  315. # [15:13] <annevk> JakeA: yes
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  317. # [15:13] <annevk> I think we'll end up with something like [Global=Window|Workers] or some such annotation
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  324. # [15:19] <JakeA> annevk: makes sense, cheers!
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  331. # [15:46] <annevk> I tried to figure out a way to make zip URLs work after yet more private requests, but I couldn't: https://gist.github.com/annevk/6174119
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  333. # [15:47] * Ms2ger wonders why people would want to break new-less constructors
  334. # [15:47] <annevk> Ms2ger: some type of subclassing I don't fully grok yet
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  346. # [16:12] <Domenic_> annevk: Ms2ger: I found https://github.com/slightlyoff/Promises/issues/71. It assumes you understand the @@create/constructor separation though and why that's necessary for subclassing.
  347. # [16:13] <Domenic_> annevk: very curious to hear a response to your thread though, I do wonder why ArrayBuffer behaves as it does.
  348. # [16:13] <annevk> Maybe because Array does the same. It seems quite a few built-ins have already spoiled the non-new well...
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  351. # [16:14] <Domenic_> yeah, i would have preferred a consistent story there
  352. # [16:15] <Domenic_> if they end up saying "oh it's OK for ArrayBuffer because X," I look forward to finding out why X doesn't apply to everything else.
  353. # [16:15] <Ms2ger> You're about a decade late, I guess
  354. # [16:15] <annevk> Domenic_: yup
  355. # [16:15] <zewt> the tagline of web api development
  356. # [16:17] <Ms2ger> All too true :/
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  361. # [16:27] <annevk> Domenic_: so playing with jQuery, it seems collection.find() basically runs the selector against each element in collection and returns the union of matched elements, in tree order
  362. # [16:27] <annevk> Domenic_: seems reasonable for find/findAll
  363. # [16:28] <Domenic_> annevk: yeah. I think that is what Elements#findAll does right now?
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  365. # [16:28] <annevk> Domenic_: there's no Elements and there's no definition of that anywhere
  366. # [16:28] <annevk> Domenic_: there's only your gist, and I don't think it defines behavior
  367. # [16:28] <Domenic_> annevk: what does it not define?
  368. # [16:29] <annevk> Domenic_: oh wait
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  371. # [16:30] <annevk> Domenic_: so your thing will fail on HTMLElement.prototype :/
  372. # [16:30] <annevk> Domenic_: can fix that in prose of course, but having no proper branding for elements sucks
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  374. # [16:32] <Domenic_> annevk: I'm not sure it will *fail* exactly... what does calling HTMLElement.prototype.querySelectorAll(...) return?
  375. # [16:32] <Domenic_> yeah ok that doesn't work
  376. # [16:32] * mpt_ is now known as mpt
  377. # [16:32] <Domenic_> (in Firefox at least)
  378. # [16:33] <zewt> annevk: does it not work to just pass through the base URL and origin to the "nested" URL? eg. so <img src=zip:/i!pony.gif> would parse out "/i" and "!pony.gif", then parse "/i" as a URL with the same base as the zip: was given
  379. # [16:33] <zewt> (guessing you've thought of this, trying to understand the problem)
  380. # [16:33] * darobin finds out about peer dependencies, kiss Domenic_
  381. # [16:33] <annevk> zewt: that's the processing model proposed
  382. # [16:35] <Domenic_> darobin: :)
  383. # [16:36] <zewt> i guess the trickiness in the iframe case is if you expect to be able to serve a whole iframe and its resources from a ZIP, where the relative urls inside the iframe would be relative to the zip
  384. # [16:36] <zewt> allowing that sort of seems nasty
  385. # [16:36] <Domenic_> annevk: yeah this branding stuff is annoying, hmm. I guess Allen's answer here would be to just check for the existence of querySelectorAll. But that creates more issues. Still, I'd hate to add X.isX to everything just to avoid the X.prototype case.
  386. # [16:36] <zewt> i guess the same thing would happen if you expect to be able to enter a ZIP URL into the address bar and load a whole website out of it
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  388. # [16:38] <zewt> don't know if that's something people really want (most cases that come to mine for me are zips of icons to get rid of sprite sheets, or zips of JS to avoid having to coalesce scripts)
  389. # [16:39] <zewt> (... mind)
  390. # [16:40] <annevk> Even in the case of only allowing fetching you have to special case zip to extract the correct origin out of the URL.
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  393. # [16:41] <annevk> We could definitely make it fetch-only and the navigate algorithm would simply do something else.
  394. # [16:42] <annevk> Domenic_: that's not an answer actually
  395. # [16:43] <annevk> Domenic_: not if you want to explain the whole platform in terms of JavaScript
  396. # [16:43] <zewt> this really wants to be something like http://foo/bar!path; curse you, web-compatibility (another tagline)
  397. # [16:43] <Domenic_> annevk: it's not a good answer, but why wouldn't it be an answer?
  398. # [16:43] <annevk> Domenic_: the amount of instance checks the platform makes is enormous
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  400. # [16:43] <Domenic_> annevk: ah i see what you mean
  401. # [16:43] <annevk> You want to solve this for the general case, not this specific case
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  403. # [16:44] <Domenic_> annevk: that's a pretty compelling argument I guess.
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  405. # [16:44] <annevk> Also, it seems querySelector is on HTMLElement.prototype
  406. # [16:45] <annevk> And it'll give you "TypeError: 'querySelector' called on an object that does not implement interface Element." of course.
  407. # [16:45] <Domenic_> Oh interesting, it's on Element.prototype in Firefox
  408. # [16:46] <Domenic_> oh but yes that's not the point you were making, i get it
  409. # [16:46] <annevk> Oh right. I meant you can invoke it from there.
  410. # [16:46] <annevk> Well, try to.
  411. # [16:55] <annevk> Domenic_: duck-typing btw also seems very bad
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  413. # [16:57] <Domenic_> annevk: i am unsure either way on that.
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  420. # [17:14] <annevk> zewt: yeah, if only we didn't allow everything single code point in paths...
  421. # [17:15] <zewt> tried to think of some weird codepoint that nobody is actually using, but hard to prove and would be a really nasty hack anyway...
  422. # [17:16] <zewt> i just thought of perhaps the nastiest hack in a while: use an unpaired surrogate! D:
  423. # [17:16] <annevk> U+0000 ...
  424. # [17:16] <annevk> that'd only work through script
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  427. # [17:21] <Ms2ger> TabAtkins, yeah, if you could just convince Allen...
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  431. # [17:24] <annevk> Ms2ger: context?
  432. # [17:24] <Ms2ger> The Word tweet
  433. # [17:27] <Domenic_> it's an Ecma requirement actually
  434. # [17:27] <Domenic_> Allen hates it quite a lot too
  435. # [17:28] <Ms2ger> That's FUD, afaict
  436. # [17:28] <Domenic_> (Although this Anolis HTML format thing seems kinda crazy to me, personally.)
  437. # [17:28] <Ms2ger> Why's thatN
  438. # [17:28] <Ms2ger> ?
  439. # [17:28] <Ms2ger> Of course, any crazy parts are Bert's fault
  440. # [17:33] * darobin smiles
  441. # [17:34] <Domenic_> I dunno, I'm sure it's all there for a good reason. But from the outside all these different random wrapper tags seem strange. <var title> vs. <code> vs. <a> vs. <span>, and they get translated between each other during a translation process... And, it's hard to see what it gains vs. markdown, in terms of real tangible gains. It loses readability and
  442. # [17:34] <Domenic_> authorability of the source pretty hard (having to know which esoteric wrapper tag you need for which type of term).
  443. # [17:34] <Domenic_> The only way I was able to submit pull requests was by copying and pasting similar paragraphs and tweaking wording.
  444. # [17:35] <Domenic_> (pull requests to the DOM spec)
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  447. # [17:41] <annevk> Hold on. Hold on. HTML is an order of magnitude better than Word. Period.
  448. # [17:42] <annevk> If we can make Anolis better, I'm all for it, but lets not try to compare the two.
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  451. # [17:43] <annevk> (AFAICT ECMA will do whatever TC39 wants so if Allen actually hates it (and I've anecdotal evidence to the contrary) it'd have changed I think.)
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  457. # [17:48] <Domenic_> haha yes, HTML >>> Word definitely, Anolis comments were just an aside.
  458. # [17:48] <Domenic_> Didn't know that about Ecma, interesting.
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  461. # [17:52] <annevk> Ecma seems to exist mostly around TC39. It's kinda weird.
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  463. # [17:55] <Ms2ger> Domenic_, so var/code/a/span get linked, and then spans are dropped, because they're pointless
  464. # [17:55] <Ms2ger> get linked, that is, unless there's nothing to link to, which you can make explicit with title=""
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  473. # [18:03] <GPHemsley> document.write() is frowned upon, right?
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  475. # [18:04] <Ms2ger> Yeah
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  484. # [18:11] <annevk> Hmm, should the signature of .find() be changed to find(relativeSelectors, referenceElements...)?
  485. # [18:13] <Domenic_> why wouldn't you just do referenceElements.find(relativeSelectors)
  486. # [18:13] <Domenic_> in jQuery you generally either do $(relativeSelector, referenceElement) or $(referenceElement).find(relativeSelector)
  487. # [18:14] <annevk> So shouldn't we provide both?
  488. # [18:14] <Domenic_> so you mean like window.find(relativeSelector, referenceElement)?
  489. # [18:15] <annevk> parentNode.find()
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  491. # [18:15] <Domenic_> i don't see the utility. the reason jQuery has the two-argument form is because it's global and short
  492. # [18:16] <Domenic_> having to select a parent node and then use two arguments (for a total of three entities involved) is not a savings
  493. # [18:16] <annevk> well parent can be document
  494. # [18:16] <annevk> or a document fragment
  495. # [18:17] <Domenic_> i think it's easier to just do referenceElement.find(relativeSelector)
  496. # [18:18] <Domenic_> i am missing the use case that this does not cover
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  501. # [18:20] <annevk> Yeah so I was reading this based on Selectors API 2, but that does seem kind of weird
  502. # [18:21] <Domenic_> ah right
  503. # [18:21] <annevk> ?
  504. # [18:22] <Domenic_> as in, i forgot about selectors 2, but now i see where you're coming from
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  506. # [18:22] <Domenic_> it is weird though, i don't see any reason why selectors 2 does that
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  511. # [18:27] <TabAtkins> zcorpan: I dunno, but I'm willing to support that.
  512. # [18:27] <TabAtkins> zcorpan: (Read "I dunno" as "no".)
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  515. # [18:31] <annevk> Domenic_: sounds good to me
  516. # [18:32] <annevk> Now I just need to figure out how to write down "Elements"
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  520. # [18:37] <Domenic_> annevk: how will these things be created anyway? Element.find() returns an Element, but Element.findAll() returns an Elements?
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  522. # [18:38] <annevk> well instances of Element would, yes, also instances of Document / DocumentFragment
  523. # [18:39] <Domenic_> right ok. so basically what selectors level 2 does, but a bit better.
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  525. # [18:39] <Domenic_> and the reason for document having this is because document.documentElement.find is too long to type compared to document.find?
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  527. # [18:40] <Domenic_> i guess the former wouldn't find "html", nevermind
  528. # [18:43] <TabAtkins> Hixie: I'm rewriting some of the font-load-events stuff this week, since jdaggett doesn't have time to rewrite to reflect the consensus from last f2f.
  529. # [18:46] <annevk> Also need to have @@unscopeable for find/findAll
  530. # [18:47] <Domenic_> because of the inline-event-handlers-implicitly-do-`with` thing?
  531. # [18:48] <annevk> No they do something weirder than that
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  535. # [18:56] <TabAtkins> No, they're explainable with `with`, just three (I think) nested `with`s.
  536. # [18:58] <jgraham> ...
  537. # [18:58] <Domenic_> :O
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  540. # [18:59] <TabAtkins> Yes.
  541. # [19:02] <annevk> TabAtkins: that's weirder than implicit-with dude :p
  542. # [19:03] <TabAtkins> Bah, only by a linear factor.
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  545. # [19:04] <annevk> Domenic_: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#event-handler-content-attributes step 6
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  549. # [19:10] <Domenic_> annevk: cool thanks. different topic: what do you think of "modular" specs? whatwg has a lot, and it seems cool, but slightlyoff expressed skepticism on twitter the other day and i can see both sides.
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  551. # [19:11] <annevk> Domenic_: It doesn't make much sense to me to put URL and Encoding in the same document. I'd love to hear the argument for that.
  552. # [19:11] <Ms2ger> "It's all part of the web"
  553. # [19:11] <annevk> Domenic_: HTML has a lot in the same document though, so not all of our stuff is modular.
  554. # [19:11] <Domenic_> sure, but pieces of html seem to keep breaking off.
  555. # [19:11] <smaug____> whatwg has a lot ?
  556. # [19:11] <smaug____> whatwg doesn't have too many specs
  557. # [19:12] <Domenic_> smaug____: https://github.com/whatwg/ seems like a lot to me
  558. # [19:12] <Ms2ger> Do you know how many the CSSWG publishes?
  559. # [19:12] <annevk> Domenic_: http://the-pastry-box-project.net/anne-van-kesteren/2013-may-7/ seems still relevant.
  560. # [19:12] <Ms2ger> And they cover a lot less
  561. # [19:12] <annevk> Domenic_: if that's a lot you haven't seen many W3C drafts I'm afraid. :/
  562. # [19:13] <Domenic_> hmm i guess so
  563. # [19:13] <Ms2ger> But I think HTML could benefit from being split up somewhat
  564. # [19:13] <Ms2ger> Though it's all intertwined, unfortunately
  565. # [19:14] <smaug____> yes, splitting HTML might improve readability
  566. # [19:14] <Domenic_> annevk: oh cool hadn't seen that link
  567. # [19:14] <annevk> Domenic_: I think the way to address slightlyoff's concern is by ensuring you know most of what's going on and ensuring some kind of consistency.
  568. # [19:19] <annevk> Hixie would prefer having most things in one document. But then taking over editing of the DOM specification is something he's not interested in, so...
  569. # [19:20] <Ms2ger> It would be interesting to generate a merged document, perhaps
  570. # [19:20] * Ms2ger doesn't volunteer
  571. # [19:20] <TabAtkins> Hah, that spec list is *nothing* before the might of the CSSWG!
  572. # [19:21] <annevk> But to properly merge it you want to do more than just having it as a chapter.
  573. # [19:21] <Ms2ger> Right
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  575. # [19:21] <Ms2ger> Hixie's build system doesn't help :)
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  578. # [19:24] <annevk> Domenic_: also, I'll take slightlyoff's arguments here more seriously once he writes a couple of specs
  579. # [19:24] <Domenic_> oooh burnnn
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  584. # [19:27] <MikeSmith> ./topic I'll take slightlyoff's arguments here more seriously once he writes a couple of specs
  585. # [19:29] <TabAtkins> Hm, what's the special meaning of span/code/i/abbr/var in Anolis xrefs?
  586. # [19:29] <Ms2ger> TabAtkins, they're xreffed
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  588. # [19:29] <TabAtkins> Well, yeah, but Domenic said that they have particular uses? It's not recorded in the docs.
  589. # [19:30] <Ms2ger> Not really, no
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  622. # [20:56] <Domenic_> annevk: ah damn, conflicting with Array.prototype.find, how did we miss that.
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  626. # [21:10] <annevk> Domenic_: when was Array.prototype.find added?
  627. # [21:11] <annevk> https://gist.github.com/rwldrn/5079436 is from five months ago
  628. # [21:12] <annevk> Yours is about a month old and Selectors API 2 is way older... And jQuery uses find(). Seems pretty obvious why that was missed :)
  629. # [21:12] <Domenic_> annevk: yeah i think it was around then, es-discuss email maybe a month prior => TC39 meeting agreement => that gist
  630. # [21:12] <Domenic_> well, can't believe *I* missed that, I guess.
  631. # [21:13] <Domenic_> maybe query()
  632. # [21:14] <annevk> So Allen's position makes sense, but is completely out-of-sync with most of the platform. It might still work though.
  633. # [21:14] <Domenic_> right, yeah.
  634. # [21:14] <Domenic_> i think my followup email outlines something more concrete
  635. # [21:14] <annevk> select/selectAll
  636. # [21:14] <Domenic_> oh duh that's very nice
  637. # [21:14] <Domenic_> changing gist
  638. # [21:15] <annevk> The names might be taken unfortunately.
  639. # [21:15] <Domenic_> but yeah we still want to use native QSA, probably not triggering any old querySelectorAll method, for optimization reasons if nothing else.
  640. # [21:15] <annevk> Also, querySelector takes selectorList whereas this would take relativeSelectorList
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  642. # [21:16] <Domenic_> selectorList?
  643. # [21:16] <gsnedders> What's the justification for the noscript parsing depending on the scripting enabled flag? It seems like it could easily result in different parse trees.
  644. # [21:16] <annevk> Domenic_: "img, p"
  645. # [21:17] <annevk> gsnedders: that's how <noscript> works
  646. # [21:17] <Domenic_> annevk: hmm ok. So you're saying just prepending `":scope "` doesn't do the trick.
  647. # [21:17] <jgraham> fwiw I think "select" is a better name than "find"
  648. # [21:17] <Ms2ger> gsnedders, isn't that the point?
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  650. # [21:17] <Domenic_> jgraham: agreed, `select` is excellent.
  651. # [21:18] <annevk> Domenic_: you need to absolutize: http://dev.w3.org/csswg/selectors/#absolutizing
  652. # [21:18] <gsnedders> Ms2ger: I dunno. It just seems evil.
  653. # [21:18] <annevk> For once CSS has defined all the primitives we need.
  654. # [21:18] <annevk> Oh wait, it's not CSS, it's Selectors!
  655. # [21:19] <gsnedders> jgraham, annevk: why does html5lib impl the scripting enabled case?
  656. # [21:19] <Domenic_> what am i doing looking at selectors level 2 when we've got a level 4 hanging around!?!
  657. # [21:19] <zcorpan> anyone feel like implementing the hide-tags thing in web-apps-tracker?
  658. # [21:19] <Domenic_> :P
  659. # [21:19] <annevk> gsnedders: I think we wanted to closely align with browsers
  660. # [21:19] <Ms2ger> Domenic_, selectors level 4, selectors api level 2
  661. # [21:19] <Ms2ger> Domenic_, in case that was serious
  662. # [21:19] <Domenic_> Ms2ger: hah ok, yeah assumed it was something like that
  663. # [21:20] <gsnedders> annevk: Except it doesn't, because if they parse with scripting enabled they'll do stuff with document.write, and if they parse with it disabled they again won't match us.
  664. # [21:20] <annevk> gsnedders: sure sure, more closely
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  666. # [21:21] <annevk> Selectors API 2 will be eaten by DOM. Then there'll be one Selectors left.
  667. # [21:21] <zcorpan> gsnedders: maybe html5lib should have it configurable
  668. # [21:21] <annevk> gsnedders: I'm not saying I still agree with that btw
  669. # [21:21] <gsnedders> zcorpan: Oh, it should.
  670. # [21:21] <jgraham> gsnedders: Because realistically people scraping websites expect that
  671. # [21:21] <gsnedders> zcorpan: Just nobody has bothered to do it. :)
  672. # [21:21] <Domenic_> i wonder if prototyping this in jsdom would be useful.
  673. # [21:22] <TabAtkins> Domenic_: The algorithm to absolutize a relative selector is in Selectors 4.
  674. # [21:22] <gsnedders> jgraham: Do they really get better resulting frm scripting enabled?
  675. # [21:22] <jgraham> Well it depends if you think that any websites use <noscript> in a useful way
  676. # [21:22] <jgraham> I doubt that
  677. # [21:23] <Domenic_> apparently discourse (codinghorror's new forum thing) is using it for seo
  678. # [21:23] <gsnedders> On the face of it, if we want to match browsers, we should be scripting disable.
  679. # [21:23] <gsnedders> *disabled
  680. # [21:23] <Domenic_> http://eviltrout.com/2013/06/19/adding-support-for-search-engines-to-your-javascript-applications.html
  681. # [21:23] <jgraham> Well I don't think it's that important
  682. # [21:23] <Ms2ger> So is the stuff that I didn't want in DOM in selectors?
  683. # [21:23] <Ms2ger> I guess I should rereview, then
  684. # [21:23] <annevk> TabAtkins: yeah just pointed to it. You guys are awesome for having done that already.
  685. # [21:23] <Ms2ger> And/or Lachy should rewrite his PR
  686. # [21:24] <TabAtkins> Ah, I see.
  687. # [21:24] <TabAtkins> Yeah, we defined it for Lachy, and sent him an email detailing what things he can change/remove from his spec.
  688. # [21:24] <annevk> Ms2ger: Given that he seems to be mostly MIA I'll have a go at it.
  689. # [21:24] <Ms2ger> Great
  690. # [21:25] <annevk> Ms2ger: I think I'll start with the non-controversial stuff. querySelector / querySelectorAll / matches. And then figure out how to do the other two and the new collection API.
  691. # [21:25] <Ms2ger> annevk, sounds like a sensible approach
  692. # [21:25] <Lachy> TabAtkins, yes, I need to deal with that
  693. # [21:25] <Ms2ger> Ah, there's Lachy
  694. # [21:26] <annevk> Whoa, a wild Lachy appears!
  695. # [21:26] <gsnedders> Only L3, though :(
  696. # [21:27] <annevk> Maybe Lachy is like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beetlejuice
  697. # [21:27] <TabAtkins> annevk: No, we only mentioned his name twice.
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  699. # [21:29] <Lachy> TabAtkins, basicaly the reason I didn't update the selectors api spec is that Ive been intending for it to be superseded by DOM, which I need to finish incorporating it into.
  700. # [21:29] <TabAtkins> Lachy: kk, no problem
  701. # [21:30] <annevk> Ah, I just said "him"
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  706. # [21:35] <zcorpan> TabAtkins: abbr/i/var aren't xreffed anymore (unless you turn on some flag)
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  708. # [21:35] <TabAtkins> zcorpan: Oh, then the docs need to be updated.
  709. # [21:36] <zcorpan> likely :-(
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  711. # [21:36] <TabAtkins> So what's still xreffed? <a>, <span>, <code>?
  712. # [21:36] <Lachy> annevk, I can do it. Ive just been on extended holiday. But now that I have a new job, I can start getting back into spec work.
  713. # [21:36] <zcorpan> TabAtkins: <span> and <code>. <a> is TODO
  714. # [21:36] <TabAtkins> Heh.
  715. # [21:38] <TabAtkins> Do you just take any <code>/<span>, or is there some explicit flag marking it as an attempted ref?
  716. # [21:39] <zcorpan> oh i implemented <a> but Ms2ger hasn't merged yet. https://bitbucket.org/ms2ger/anolis/pull-request/11/enable-usage-of-instead-of-for-xrefs-also/diff
  717. # [21:39] <Ms2ger> Hrm, why didn't I?
  718. # [21:39] <TabAtkins> I can recognize anolis xrefs; they're not hard.
  719. # [21:39] <zcorpan> TabAtkins: any that doesn't have empty title attribute
  720. # [21:39] <TabAtkins> zcorpan: Okay.
  721. # [21:40] <TabAtkins> I'd probably want to trigger it via a command-line option, then.
  722. # [21:40] <Ms2ger> zcorpan, any reason not to merge it?
  723. # [21:40] <TabAtkins> Like --anolis-compat or something.
  724. # [21:40] <zcorpan> Ms2ger: i think i tested it, but pls look it over in case i did something utterly stupid
  725. # [21:41] <Ms2ger> On first sight, no, but the code is horrible
  726. # [21:41] <zcorpan> well yeah
  727. # [21:42] <zcorpan> TabAtkins: anolis also supports data-anolis-xref="" or some such but i think nobody uses it because it's just more verbose compared to title
  728. # [21:43] <Ms2ger> The anolis documentation uses it
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  730. # [21:43] <TabAtkins> annevk: Yo, in http://example.com/foo and http://example.com/foo/, the two are identical except that the second has a second, empty path segment, right?
  731. # [21:43] <annevk> TabAtkins: yes
  732. # [21:43] <TabAtkins> annevk: Ok.
  733. # [21:44] <Ms2ger> zcorpan, anyway, merged it; I'll hear if it breaks anything
  734. # [21:44] * Joins: smaug____ (~chatzilla@cs164155.pp.htv.fi)
  735. # [21:44] <annevk> Lachy: where do you work now?
  736. # [21:44] <zcorpan> Ms2ger: thanks
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  743. # [21:59] <Lachy> annevk, it's a company called Aspiro TV. They provide media streaming services and applications for their clients.
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  745. # [22:00] <Lachy> I'm doing front end development for an application built as a hybrid web app/native app for devices
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  751. # [22:06] <zcorpan> is firefox going to disallow <iframe src=viewsource:...> given the pixel perfect timing attack thing?
  752. # [22:06] <JonathanNeal> zcorpan: could always use viewsource.in :)
  753. # [22:07] <zcorpan> JonathanNeal: the user wouldn't be logged in via that service
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  758. # [22:15] <JonathanNeal> gotcha
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  760. # [22:19] <GPHemsley> Ms2ger: Did you ever turn on attribute sorting?
  761. # [22:20] <Ms2ger> I don't recall
  762. # [22:21] <GPHemsley> I don't think you did
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  764. # [22:24] <TabAtkins> Okay, so if I add an --anolis-compat flag, that's just a matter of recognizing <code> as a maybe-link (I already recognize <i> as such), and recognizing data-anolis-xref as an alternative for title.
  765. # [22:24] <TabAtkins> And then doing the cross-spec stuff that you do differently.
  766. # [22:24] <TabAtkins> (My cross-spec stuff is based on data parsed by Shepherd.)
  767. # [22:25] <TabAtkins> Alternately, just ignoring that and getting Shepherd to parse more specs.
  768. # [22:25] <TabAtkins> Hm, Anolis doesn't type any definitions/links, right? Every definition lives in a global namespace?
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  770. # [22:26] <annevk> TabAtkins: cross-spec references are per spec
  771. # [22:26] <TabAtkins> Ah, bleh.
  772. # [22:26] <annevk> There's a public database
  773. # [22:26] <annevk> TabAtkins: https://github.com/whatwg/xref/
  774. # [22:27] <TabAtkins> Okay, so you just use PRs to amend the set of cross-refs?
  775. # [22:27] <Ms2ger> Pretty much everyone who uses it has push access, I think
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  801. # [23:12] <zcorpan> funny when i file a bug and later it digs into issues that go over my head (https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=18242 )
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  808. # [23:20] <Hixie> zcorpan: not as funny as when you file a bug on a spec i edit and it goes over _my_ head (https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=18242) :-P
  809. # [23:20] <zcorpan> heh
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  811. # [23:21] <Hixie> in other news, i need a term that doesn't really mean anything, but expresses the property of A being something relative to B, without implying a mutual relationship, and that brings to mind the idea of control or authority
  812. # [23:21] <Hixie> to replace the term "A is friends with B" in the spec, which unfortunately does imply a mutual relationship
  813. # [23:22] * Hixie hands out paint brushes and waits
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  817. # [23:24] * jgraham wonders what a non-mutual relationship is
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  819. # [23:26] <zcorpan> jgraham: e.g. stalking maybe?
  820. # [23:26] <jgraham> Yeah, that was exactly the example I just came up with
  821. # [23:26] <jgraham> So there we go
  822. # [23:26] <jgraham> "A stalks B"
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  825. # [23:29] <Philip`> "A is in unrequited love with B"
  826. # [23:30] <zcorpan> "A is boss over B"
  827. # [23:30] <Philip`> "A is secretly wiretapping B"
  828. # [23:32] <zcorpan> "A is twisting B's nipples"
  829. # [23:34] <jgraham> zcorpan: "boss over" has the inverse "employee of"
  830. # [23:35] <zcorpan> jgraham: ok, strike that one
  831. # [23:38] <zcorpan> Hixie: there, you have several to choose from :-)
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  833. # [23:39] <zcorpan> "A is spying on B"
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  835. # [23:41] <jgraham> "A is hiding from B"
  836. # [23:52] <zcorpan> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=22625 - should the bugfiler do something smart with <sub>/<sup>? (or other elements?)
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  841. # [23:55] <TabAtkins> Anyone know the progress of the "async image" stuff, where some attribute on the <img> would make it not fire the request until the browser thought it was about to display?
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  843. # [23:58] <zcorpan> there's a bug filed about that at least
  844. # [23:58] <MikeSmith> TabAtkins: it that not the thing that somebody in the Web Performance group was speccing out?
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  846. # [23:59] <MikeSmith> after scope-creeping it into an attribute for script and other elements
  847. # [23:59] <zcorpan> ah yeah
  848. # Session Close: Thu Aug 08 00:00:01 2013

The end :)