/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2013-08-09 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Aug 09 00:00:00 2013
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  9. # [00:10] <TabAtkins> I forget - is there anything super terrible about subclassing DOMString so you can augment it with better stuff, but still have it look like a string?
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  12. # [00:15] <TabAtkins> (Context: thinking about the CSSOM Values API again, and just turning it on by default by switching el.style.foo from returning a DOMString to returning this new DOMString subclass.
  13. # [00:15] <TabAtkins> )
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  16. # [00:17] <heycam> TabAtkins, just that that's not really possible
  17. # [00:17] <TabAtkins> Heh, "just". Why not?
  18. # [00:17] <heycam> otherwise I think that would have been a good plan for doing much of the SVG DOM improvements
  19. # [00:17] <heycam> it's not clear what you mean by "subclassing DOMString", really
  20. # [00:18] <heycam> DOMString is meant to represent a JS String value
  21. # [00:18] <heycam> not an object
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  23. # [00:18] <TabAtkins> Yeah, can we just return something with String on its prototype chain? Or maybe just has toString set, and the attributes have [PutForward]
  24. # [00:19] <heycam> my spidey sense is telling me this is a bad idea :)
  25. # [00:19] <heycam> nobody really uses String objects etc.
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  27. # [00:19] <TabAtkins> The only difference between it and a string would be the typeof/instanceof behavior (probably not actually exercised in real code), and the fact that it can't be falsey (but do we ever return empty strings)?
  28. # [00:20] <heycam> and that you can't compare to String objects for equality with ==
  29. # [00:20] <heycam> since that checks for object identity
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  31. # [00:20] <TabAtkins> You mean ===
  32. # [00:20] <TabAtkins> But yeah.
  33. # [00:20] <TabAtkins> But == works.
  34. # [00:20] <heycam> no...
  35. # [00:21] <heycam> == also checks for object identity if the two things are objects
  36. # [00:21] <TabAtkins> Oh, yeah.
  37. # [00:21] <gsnedders> String *objects* v. string *primitives*
  38. # [00:21] <TabAtkins> I thought you were talkinga bout things like "if(el.x == '5')"
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  40. # [00:21] <heycam> ah
  41. # [00:21] <heycam> that would work
  42. # [00:21] <gsnedders> And you never /ever/ want to touch a String object.
  43. # [00:21] <gsnedders> So you never ever want to have String.prototype on a prototype chain.
  44. # [00:21] <heycam> but yeah, the falsey issue and equality checking were the reasons we discounted doing something similar for SVGAnimatedLength
  45. # [00:22] <gsnedders> Because string objects are evil.
  46. # [00:22] <heycam> there is that!
  47. # [00:22] <TabAtkins> gsnedders: Hrm, but I want something that acts like a string, but with more stuff.
  48. # [00:22] <TabAtkins> We could always have it just expose all the string methods manually, and have indexed properties for the characters in its string representation. ^_^
  49. # [00:23] <heycam> still, I wouldn't think it's out of the question for someone to do: if (el.style.color == el.style.backgroundColor)
  50. # [00:23] <heycam> or something like that
  51. # [00:24] <gsnedders> TabAtkins: No you don't.
  52. # [00:24] <TabAtkins> heycam: True.
  53. # [00:24] <TabAtkins> gsnedders: I don't?
  54. # [00:25] <gsnedders> TabAtkins: No, you don't.
  55. # [00:25] <TabAtkins> I wasn't asking for a repeat. ^_^
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  57. # [00:26] <gsnedders> I didn't!
  58. # [00:26] <gsnedders> I added a comma!
  59. # [00:26] <TabAtkins> Anyway, why don't I?
  60. # [00:28] <gsnedders> What's your use-case?
  61. # [00:28] <gsnedders> (You don't want to use string objects because they appear to be like string primitives, which people are used to, but then aren't in a few subtle ways.)
  62. # [00:29] <TabAtkins> Magically upgrade el.style.foo into a more full-featured object.
  63. # [00:29] <gsnedders> More seriously, how the hell did it get this late?
  64. # [00:29] <TabAtkins> Hahaha
  65. # [00:29] <gsnedders> I need to sleep, man.
  66. # [00:31] <gsnedders> TabAtkins: FWIW, I'd be tempted to try something with making it a new object with a valueOf that returned a string.
  67. # [00:31] <gsnedders> But idk, I haven't thought about it, and I need sleep.
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  70. # [00:38] <Hixie> TabAtkins: you don't subclass DOMString, you make a new object for hte attribute, with a PutForwards on the attribute and a serializer on the object
  71. # [00:38] <Hixie> TabAtkins: it's controversial, but i like it. :-)
  72. # [00:38] <TabAtkins> That's fine with me, assuming it works.
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  74. # [00:39] <TabAtkins> But it does mean that, for example, el.style.foo.slice(5, 10) doesn't work.
  75. # [00:39] <TabAtkins> While it did work back when you had a string.
  76. # [00:41] <TabAtkins> And I guess that "el.style.color == el.style.backgroundColor" stops working.
  77. # [00:41] <TabAtkins> But it does work if you compare it with a string literal.
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  82. # [00:44] <heycam> I wonder if anybody ever gets trapped by `window.location == otherWindow.location` not doing what they expect
  83. # [00:46] <TabAtkins> I could certainly see myself falling into that, but I suppose I shouldn't admit that if that's what I'm wanting to do. ^_^
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  99. # [01:11] <TabAtkins> Hmm... if we manually add the String operations to CSSValue, and add indexed properties for the characters of the string representation, then we'd avoid one of the big possible compat pitfalls.
  100. # [01:11] <TabAtkins> We wouldn't actually be a String subclass, but we'd act like it.
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  107. # [01:17] <TabAtkins> heycam: ^^^ Maybe a [StringClass] attribute to automate the "I'm a fake string!" process? ^_^
  108. # [01:17] <annevk> TabAtkins: I think we went through this once before
  109. # [01:17] <TabAtkins> annevk: There you are!
  110. # [01:17] <TabAtkins> Yes, I was wanting a refresher on the problems.
  111. # [01:17] <annevk> I'm not really here
  112. # [01:18] <annevk> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-script-coord/2010JanMar/thread.html#msg21
  113. # [01:18] <TabAtkins> d'oh
  114. # [01:18] <heycam> I don't think I'd be happy with fake strings, unless there were proper support for them in JS itself, so that == etc. could work
  115. # [01:18] <TabAtkins> Ah, excellent.
  116. # [01:18] <TabAtkins> heycam: Clearly we just need to wait for ES to do the operator-overloading thing.
  117. # [01:18] <heycam> maybe!
  118. # [01:18] <TabAtkins> Which is much closer to happening now.
  119. # [01:18] <heycam> do you have a pointer to any preliminary work on that?
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  121. # [01:20] <annevk> Brendan did a presentation at the last TC39 meeting
  122. # [01:20] <annevk> http://esdiscuss.org/topic/typeof-extensibility-building-on-my-value-objects-slides-from-thursday-s-tc39-meeting has the details
  123. # [01:20] <heycam> thanks
  124. # [01:21] <annevk> Yeah, seems like that's what might work for something coolish here. Makes == work anyway.
  125. # [01:22] <heycam> so not being able to do anything useful with rectElement.x etc. was most of the reason for thinking about the "big switch" new SVG DOM
  126. # [01:22] <heycam> if we will be able to treat .x as a string and an object in some sane way, then maybe it's unnecessary
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  129. # [01:26] <TabAtkins> rect.x already isn't a string, right? It's an AnimatedLength.
  130. # [01:27] <heycam> right
  131. # [01:27] <heycam> but we want to make it a string
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  134. # [01:30] <TabAtkins> I think a combination of stringifier + [PutForwards] may be enough.
  135. # [01:31] <TabAtkins> And it can just have multiple accessors: rect.x.px, rect.x.em, rect.x.string, etc.
  136. # [01:31] <TabAtkins> getters/setters, that is.
  137. # [01:32] <annevk> I feel like I wanted to bug heycam about something, and now I can't remember
  138. # [01:33] <heycam> TabAtkins, I dunno, I feel like I've considered that approach many times but felt it just didn't quite make it, due to ==
  139. # [01:33] <heycam> we've actually got the .px stuff in the spec at the moment, though nobody's implemented it yet
  140. # [01:33] <TabAtkins> Yeah, depending on value objects progress, that may not be good.
  141. # [01:34] <TabAtkins> heycam: I just want us to match CSSOM Values API.
  142. # [01:34] <heycam> sure
  143. # [01:34] <heycam> the answer then is not to define the CSSOM Values API like that ;)
  144. # [01:35] <TabAtkins> Heh.
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  146. # [01:35] <heycam> are you working on that btw?
  147. # [01:35] <TabAtkins> Still, some lessons need to be taken from the Values API, like how to handle list-valued properties in a way that's consistent between always-been-a-list and turned-into-a-list-later.
  148. # [01:35] <TabAtkins> Kinda.
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  150. # [01:35] <TabAtkins> It's been on my list for a while, but I'm bumping it up to help with SVG. ^_^
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  152. # [01:35] <heycam> ok cool
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  159. # [01:40] <TabAtkins> As far as I can tell (ignoring the CSS part for a bit, so we just have an SVG clean slate), the only reason to have it as a string is to allow for immediate string operations on the value. Right?
  160. # [01:40] <heycam> yes
  161. # [01:40] <heycam> and for consistency with HTML attribute reflections
  162. # [01:41] <TabAtkins> Hm, okay.
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  164. # [01:43] <TabAtkins> Hm, what about, in concert with CSSStyleDeclaration gaining a .values property that returns a new map of property names to the magical objects rather than strings, SVG elements also gain a .values property that returns a new map of attribute names to the magical objects.
  165. # [01:43] <heycam> something like that would be acceptable. better than xAsLength, yAsLength, etc.
  166. # [01:44] <TabAtkins> Yeah, definitely.
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  168. # [01:44] <TabAtkins> And we could later do the same thing with HTML, if necessary.
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  170. # [01:44] <shepazu> heycam, had you talked with anyone else (at moz or other implementers) about your proposal, and what did they say?
  171. # [01:45] <TabAtkins> (We're already hiding .values from the with(){} of event handlers, so this would catch that too.)
  172. # [01:45] <heycam> no. well I sent it to brian for get some initial comments, but that's all.
  173. # [01:45] <shepazu> just curious
  174. # [01:45] <heycam> and Tab, but he didn't reply quickly enough :)
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  176. # [01:47] <TabAtkins> Yeah, sorry, I was slow in replying. :/
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  179. # [01:49] * heycam often has that problem, so doesn't blame anyone else for doing so
  180. # [01:49] <heycam> biab
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  183. # [01:52] <TabAtkins> Oh, huh, I thought that images rotated along with the text in vertical writing modes.
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  185. # [01:52] <TabAtkins> Let's see if FF has the same behavior as Chrome...
  186. # [01:55] <TabAtkins> Oh, FF doesn't do writing mode yet. Wonderful.
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  332. # [11:06] <annevk> Domenic_: that's a pretty go
  333. # [11:06] <annevk> Domenic_: oops, compelling reply
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  335. # [11:06] <annevk> Domenic_: thanks!
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  347. # [12:34] <annevk> Woohoo, found more browser differences...
  348. # [12:34] <annevk> baseURI is apparently cloned in Gecko, not in Chrome.
  349. # [12:35] <annevk> Whoa, IE doesn't even support baseURI
  350. # [12:38] <annevk> I wonder if IE supports xml:base...
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  352. # [12:49] <annevk> So, none of Chrome/Safari/IE support xml:base!
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  356. # [13:10] <MikeSmith> annevk: crazy
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  358. # [13:11] <annevk> Since xml:base is kinda crazy, I'd like to call this one an opportunity.
  359. # [13:12] <zcorpan> apparently my fingers think that </var> is an appropriate way to close any element
  360. # [13:13] <zcorpan> i guess killing xml:base also means complexity is reduced quite a bit
  361. # [13:14] <SimonSapin> So can we just remove that last test and move on? http://test.csswg.org/suites/css-style-attr/nightly-unstable/report/results.html
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  363. # [13:16] <zcorpan> ok i've defined how declaration blocks are serialized, with shorthands. anyone want to review the diff before i commit?
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  365. # [13:20] <annevk> Filed https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=903372 on removing xml:base from Gecko
  366. # [13:20] <zcorpan> http://pastebin.com/3LRZVbLP
  367. # [13:21] <annevk> zcorpan: I don't think it make sense to talk about syntax
  368. # [13:21] <annevk> "If a property is specified more than once" is a syntax thing, it's not a model thing
  369. # [13:22] <zcorpan> annevk: yeah, i should probably hook into the cascade there in some way
  370. # [13:23] <annevk> zcorpan: some complexity can be removed I suppose, but <base> is still there
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  377. # [13:48] <gsnedders> annevk: FWIW, xml:base is required in stuff like RSS/Atom
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  380. # [14:11] <zcorpan> it could be made an RSS/Atom-specific attribute
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  383. # [14:15] <zcorpan> TabAtkins: is there something in css-cascade that i can hook into for the purpose of saying which declarations go in to the CSSOM? it seems to talk about the processing going from an element and matching against it, but for CSSOM that's not what i need
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  385. # [14:24] <zcorpan> TabAtkins: see the top of http://pastebin.com/3LRZVbLP for context
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  388. # [14:46] <annevk> gsnedders: could care less
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  390. # [14:48] <zcorpan> annevk: you mean couldn't?
  391. # [14:49] <annevk> zcorpan: oops
  392. # [14:51] <gsnedders> annevk: Does Firefox, at least on Android, not inc. a feed reader?
  393. # [14:53] <annevk> gsnedders: support for xml:base we need there is way different and less complex
  394. # [14:53] <annevk> gsnedders: can just be done at the application layer
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  429. # [17:42] <MikeSmith> win 17
  430. # [17:49] <sangwhan> Has someone been crazy enough to polyfill CSS exclusions? :)
  431. # [17:49] * sangwhan assumes not
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  439. # [18:08] <annevk> So I wanted to put URL tests into some kind of universal format. But JSON doesn't allow comments. Suggestions?
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  443. # [18:12] <SimonSapin> annevk: for CSS parsing tests I went with JSON + a readme
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  458. # [18:33] <Domenic_> annevk: compelling reply to what?
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  475. # [19:35] <TabAtkins> zcorpan: Actually, that's a lack in Syntax - I'm adding a paragraph now stating that style rules need to ignore duplicate declarations.
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  477. # [19:35] <TabAtkins> zcorpan: Do you need a more abstract hook?
  478. # [19:36] <TabAtkins> Hm, though, you *do* need something more abstract I think, because Syntax probably doesn't want to do shorthand expansion.
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  481. # [19:37] <TabAtkins> Since the actual list of properties that CSSOM will see should include shorthands (so it can serialize).
  482. # [19:39] <TabAtkins> zcorpan: Just let me know what you need and I can hook you up.
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  552. # [22:46] <Hixie> did we decide we were going to use IDL for deciding what was visible in workers?
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  572. # [23:36] <Hixie> heycam|away: any opinions on https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=22646 ?
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  582. # Session Close: Sat Aug 10 00:00:01 2013

The end :)