/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2013-08-12 / end

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  81. # [07:23] <zcorpan> Ms2ger: jgraham: done
  82. # [07:30] <zcorpan> TabAtkins: i thought implementations didn't store shorthands anywhere
  83. # [07:30] <zcorpan> TabAtkins: i'm not sure storing the shorthands helps much given that the values can be changed later and then you need to decide how to serialize anyway
  84. # [07:32] <zcorpan> TabAtkins: but yeah, if syntax eats the duplicates, and maybe i can point to css-cascade for the expansion of shorthands (since it has a paragraph about that already), maybe that works
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  92. # [08:09] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins, zcorpan: Re Syntax eats the duplicate, it’s actually not that simple when you have !important
  93. # [08:09] <zcorpan> SimonSapin: oh right
  94. # [08:10] <zcorpan> so cascade is still the right place to say which decl should go in
  95. # [08:10] <SimonSapin> maybe
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  97. # [08:12] <SimonSapin> zcorpan: well, that would be easiest: within valid declarations for the same longhand property (after shorhand expansion) in the same style rule, with one with the greatest Cascade precedence is kept
  98. # [08:12] <SimonSapin> that is, !important then source order
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  103. # [08:25] <SimonSapin> zcorpan: I just wrote http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Aug/0137.html
  104. # [08:35] <zcorpan> SimonSapin: thanks
  105. # [08:36] <SimonSapin> zcorpan: I’ll update Syntax one I figure out if Tab’s new processor does cross-spec linking to sections
  106. # [08:38] <zcorpan> why do you need sections?
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  122. # [09:29] * zcorpan ponders whether he should go to tpac
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  129. # [09:48] <SimonSapin> zcorpan: linking to http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-cascade/#cascading
  130. # [09:48] <SimonSapin> or linking to 'cascade' might work
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  132. # [09:49] <zcorpan> i was going to say... :-)
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  149. # [10:12] <zcorpan> were there other use cases for defaultStyle other than toggling display:none?
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  169. # [11:08] <jgraham> zcorpan: Yay!
  170. # [11:08] * zcorpan computes context, guesses the review
  171. # [11:10] <jgraham> Indeed
  172. # [11:10] <jgraham> Although also, you should go to TPAC
  173. # [11:10] <Ms2ger> Why?
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  175. # [11:11] <jgraham> Ms2ger: Because it will increase the number of useful people there, making it more worth my while going :)
  176. # [11:12] <Ms2ger> You could not go yourself ;)
  177. # [11:13] <jgraham> So, I plan to sqaush that review before committing it because really there is no need for dozens of little bugfixes
  178. # [11:13] <jgraham> Anyone object?
  179. # [11:13] <jgraham> I guess that it means that Aryeh will be listed as the sole author and get all the credit/blame
  180. # [11:13] <Ms2ger> Sure
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  191. # [11:36] <jgraham> OK, pull request #1 is no more
  192. # [11:36] <jgraham> Unles I screwed something up
  193. # [11:36] <jgraham> Which is possible
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  202. # [12:14] <zcorpan> hmm, i need to remember to test both quirks and non-quirks before drawing conclusions
  203. # [12:15] <zcorpan> (i specced clientWidth as depending on whether it's top-level browsing context or not, but actually it depends on quirks mode)
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  211. # [12:43] <SimonSapin> annevk: data:text/html,<style>body:before{content:"\d834\dd1e
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  221. # [12:56] <zcorpan> TabAtkins: i understand that your preprocessor is optimized for css specs. how well would it work for dom specs?
  222. # [12:56] <gsnedders> jgraham: I was considering Carakan until shipping.
  223. # [12:57] <jgraham> gsnedders: sof worked on it before shipping
  224. # [12:57] <gsnedders> jgraham: Then so did Lachy, so you're still wrong.
  225. # [12:58] <jgraham> I think sof was on the project for longer
  226. # [12:58] <jgraham> Or he fixed even more bugs/unit time than I remember
  227. # [12:58] <gsnedders> (Disconcerting: I still know the Carakan bug number off by heart.)
  228. # [12:59] <gsnedders> jgraham: If you believe BTS, 2009-10-19 was Lachy, 2010-02-01 was sof.
  229. # [13:00] <zcorpan> jgraham: btw if there's anything else in critic that needs my attention, just ping me, i haven't caught up with that at all
  230. # [13:00] <jgraham> gsnedders: Oh
  231. # [13:00] <gsnedders> jgraham: I remembered them both being late Jan.
  232. # [13:00] <jgraham> zcorpan: I can't think of anything, but sure, will do
  233. # [13:00] <zcorpan> if there isn't, maybe i can mark all as read :-)
  234. # [13:00] <gsnedders> jgraham: I think Lachy really started slightly later, and sof slightly earlier. But still definitely Lachy first.
  235. # [13:01] <jgraham> gsnedders: I guess this is just more evidence that sof is an awesome bug killing machine
  236. # [13:01] <gsnedders> jgraham: Yes. Except when he introduces code-deleting bugs.
  237. # [13:01] <jgraham> s/awesome/awe-inspiring/, perhaps
  238. # [13:01] <Lachy> yeah, I didn't really start actively working on carakan for a while after that. I'm not sure when, and I can't remember what I was doing.
  239. # [13:02] <gsnedders> Lachy: Reducing sites and JS libraries. This was… about all we all did.
  240. # [13:02] <Lachy> yeah, I remember what I did when I really worked on carakan, but I can't remember what I was doing in the last few months of 2009 before I actually started work on carakan.
  241. # [13:02] <zcorpan> iirc i was officially carakan qa for a few days or so, but didn't actually do anything (or rather i was doing something else)
  242. # [13:03] <jgraham> (kilsmo also worked on it a bit earlier, mostly doing QAish bits. So the average number of people on the project was probably around 6)
  243. # [13:03] <gsnedders> jgraham: I thought kilsmo stopped more or less when I started, thus I averaged it out
  244. # [13:03] <gsnedders> (Per BTS he was working on it /far/ longer than is true.)
  245. # [13:03] <jgraham> Yeah, that could be true
  246. # [13:04] <jgraham> So maybe 5.5
  247. # [13:04] <zcorpan> i was supposed to write a testing framework, but kilsmo beat me to it (dunno if his version got used later or not)
  248. # [13:04] <gsnedders> zcorpan: Yes, it did.
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  253. # [13:06] <hsivonen> I go outside network reach and the HTML parsing algorithm changes.
  254. # [13:06] <gsnedders> https://github.com/nolanw/HTMLReader — Obj-C + Cocoa HTML parser
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  256. # [13:08] <hsivonen> hmm. "in foreign" rules in the spec don't have an entry for the end-of-file token...
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  259. # [13:09] <jgraham> hsivonen: Well probably if you were in network range you would have objected to the change ;)
  260. # [13:11] <hsivonen> annevk: how do I ask http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker to show a larger number of recent changes?
  261. # [13:11] <zcorpan> hsivonen: ?limit=1000
  262. # [13:12] <annevk> hsivonen: ?limit=1000 or if you feel like having fun, -1
  263. # [13:12] <hsivonen> zcorpan, annevk: thanks
  264. # [13:14] <smaug____> argh, I had forgotten to log out from gmail
  265. # [13:14] <smaug____> I should just delete the account
  266. # [13:16] <hsivonen> Am I failing to see something obvious? Where is the behavior of EOF in foreign content specced?
  267. # [13:17] <Ms2ger> Writing testing frameworks seems like something Opera likes a lot
  268. # [13:17] * Ms2ger wonders why
  269. # [13:17] * gsnedders remembers jgraham going home for the weekend and being like, "I'll write a test framework this weekend", and thus testharness.js was born.
  270. # [13:19] <hsivonen> there must be someone here who has already looked at EOF in foreign content
  271. # [13:21] <Ms2ger> Not sure what makes you think that
  272. # [13:24] <zcorpan> Ms2ger: maybe because we write tests a lot
  273. # [13:25] <Ms2ger> I guess people who write tests are more inclined to write test harnesses
  274. # [13:25] <Ms2ger> ^full time
  275. # [13:25] <hsivonen> hah. the parsing algorithm now has inserting "in the appropriate place" as a defined concept
  276. # [13:26] <hsivonen> "do the appropriate thing" makes a lot of sense for a spec
  277. # [13:26] <jgraham> Well carakan needed a test harness because it had to run tests in the shell rather than in the browser
  278. # [13:27] <gsnedders> estest-futhark, jsunit, lots of custom one-offs, and testharness.js, I think basically accounts for all the test suites, ignoring opjsunit.
  279. # [13:27] <jgraham> Opera needed testharness.js because the thing we had before that dated to Hixie and had several deficiencies
  280. # [13:27] <jgraham> Like it discouraged writing tests
  281. # [13:28] <Ms2ger> jsframework.js?
  282. # [13:29] <zcorpan> that was jgraham's first attempt
  283. # [13:29] <jgraham> Oh, that was an earlier attempt to fix things
  284. # [13:30] <Ms2ger> I'm glad you came up with a better assert_throws for th.js :)
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  286. # [13:33] <jgraham> I wish I had come up with a better way of composing assertions
  287. # [13:34] <jgraham> Like assert_false = invert(assert_true)
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  289. # [13:35] <gsnedders> Did one of us not write something that did that?
  290. # [13:37] <zcorpan> jgraham: what would invert do? my guess that it just flips the condition seems wrong for a strict "false" check
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  292. # [13:38] <zcorpan> e.g. 0 should fail both assert_true and assert_false
  293. # [13:39] <gsnedders> Equally an exception should fail both.
  294. # [13:41] <jgraham> Yeah, I guess it's not trivial
  295. # [13:41] <gsnedders> I remember hitting this problem before…
  296. # [13:42] <jgraham> But having to manually write an inverse for each assert is annoying
  297. # [13:42] <gsnedders> Maybe it was opjsunit I tried to do this with?
  298. # [13:42] <jgraham> gsnedders: Well it is easy to do not quite right
  299. # [13:42] <gsnedders> jgraham: Right. Which is why I suspected we tried.
  300. # [13:42] <jgraham> Maybe it isn't possible to do it right
  301. # [13:43] <gsnedders> I think you just need the actual assertion composed of smaller things.
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  304. # [13:53] <jgraham> Have a server than can serve text files at least ;)
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  306. # [13:58] <Igor^> we browsers use utf8 decode characters and they display character references literally?
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  308. # [14:03] <zcorpan> Igor^: what?
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  310. # [14:03] <Igor^> unicode code point is saved on the hard disk using utf8 utf16 or ucs2 encodings for example?
  311. # [14:04] <Igor^> I am not sure if I use character reference in html file how it is saved on hard disk and how it is decoded with web browser then?
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  328. # [14:34] <hsivonen> so we aren't supporting frames in templates anymore?
  329. # [14:34] <hsivonen> but now we are supporting <title>?
  330. # [14:34] <hsivonen> is there any logic to this?
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  334. # [14:35] <hsivonen> <title> is conforming but <frame> isn't?
  335. # [14:38] * Krinkle|detached is now known as Krinkle
  336. # [14:39] <gsnedders> What has Hixie been smoking?
  337. # [14:40] * Krinkle is now known as Krinkle|detached
  338. # [14:43] <Igor^> can you answer me one question?
  339. # [14:44] <Igor^> If I use character reference in html file to represent a character and web server sends the file on browser request, how the browser will decode the character reference?
  340. # [14:44] <Igor^> My Nginx web server is configured to not send character encoding in the header I have set character encoding in the meta tag on page level to utf8.
  341. # [14:45] <Igor^> and what is this? http://html6spec.com/ :D
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  347. # [15:00] <zcorpan> Igorrrrr: character references in HTML are parsed the same regardless of hte set encoding
  348. # [15:00] <Igorrrrr> zcorpan, please explain this to me noone can and I can't find such ino on the web :S
  349. # [15:00] <Igorrrrr> zcorpan, how you mean they are parsed same
  350. # [15:01] <Igorrrrr> ok so when I write character reference - &lt; in html file and save that file with html editor using utf8 encding how the character reference is saved on the hard disk?
  351. # [15:02] <zcorpan> there usually isn't any saving on the hard disk when loading a page in a browser (unless the user saves it to disk)
  352. # [15:03] <zcorpan> or do you mean just the step that you saved a file to disk from your editor?
  353. # [15:04] <zcorpan> in either case, &lt; is still &lt;
  354. # [15:04] <zcorpan> also, this channel probably isn't appropriate for this kind of question
  355. # [15:04] * Joins: decotii (~decotii@hq.croscon.com)
  356. # [15:05] <zcorpan> or at least people here might not respond helpfully for this kind of question :-)
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  358. # [15:14] <Igorrrrr> zcorpan, no I mean when I save the file on the server hard disk
  359. # [15:14] <hsivonen> yay spec bugs: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=884795
  360. # [15:15] <zcorpan> Igorrrrr: why not inspect the file with a hex editor and see for yourself
  361. # [15:15] <Igorrrrr> zcorpan, becasue I don;t have hex editor and I am not sure how to do it never done it
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  365. # [15:17] <zcorpan> Igorrrrr: &lt; as utf-8 is the following bytes: 26 6C 74 3B
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  367. # [15:21] <Igorrrrr> so zcorpan &lt; will be saved using utf8?
  368. # [15:21] <zcorpan> Igorrrrr: yes. if you save as utf-8...
  369. # [15:22] <Igorrrrr> ok thanks zcorpan
  370. # [15:22] <Igorrrrr> the web browser then when see character reference will represent literally the character instead of its meaning?
  371. # [15:23] <zcorpan> the browser represents it as <
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  373. # [15:24] <Igorrrrr> zcorpan, literally not what it means
  374. # [15:24] <Igorrrrr> or as a string escaped
  375. # [15:28] <Igorrrrr> ok zcorpan care to answer 1 more question?
  376. # [15:29] <Igorrrrr> in &#x003C; how is "#x003C" part called without the ambiguous ampersand
  377. # [15:29] <Lachy> Igorrrrr, what do you mean by "ambiguous ampersand"?
  378. # [15:29] <Igorrrrr> we are finding definition on the #web ^^
  379. # [15:29] <Igorrrrr> just "#x003C" part
  380. # [15:29] <Igorrrrr> without "&;"
  381. # [15:29] <Igorrrrr> how it is called?
  382. # [15:30] <hsivonen> Igorrrrr: I think there isn't a specific term for that
  383. # [15:30] <Igorrrrr> html hexadecimal entity or? what is it's definition?
  384. # [15:30] <Lachy> that part doesn't have a name on its own. &#x003C; is a numeric character reference
  385. # [15:31] <Igorrrrr> so "lt" how is called?
  386. # [15:31] <Igorrrrr> ok then I guess they don;t have specific name ok
  387. # [15:31] <hsivonen> hexadecimal numeric character reference, rather
  388. # [15:31] <Igorrrrr> and "&;" is ambiguous ampersand?
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  390. # [15:31] <zcorpan> no
  391. # [15:31] <Lachy> Igorrrrr, see the spec http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/syntax.html#character-references
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  393. # [15:31] <Igorrrrr> no? -_- I though yes :(
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  395. # [15:31] <Igorrrrr> I am Lachy but as I understood &; is ambiguous ampersand :S
  396. # [15:32] <hsivonen> Igorrrrr: & is an ampersand. whether it's ambiguous depends on context
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  398. # [15:32] <Igorrrrr> see An ambiguous ampersand is a U+0026 AMPERSAND character (&) that is followed by one or more alphanumeric ASCII characters, followed by a U+003B SEMICOLON character (;), where these characters do not match any of the names given in the named character references section.
  399. # [15:32] <Igorrrrr> this is said in the spec so I guess I am right zcorpan ?
  400. # [15:32] <zcorpan> Igorrrrr: ...one or more alphanumeric ASCII characters...
  401. # [15:33] <zcorpan> "&;" doesn't have that
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  403. # [15:33] <zcorpan> &lol; would have an ambiguous ampersand
  404. # [15:34] <Lachy> Igorrrrr, in case it's unclear, alphanumeric means A-Z a-z or 0-9. &#x3C; is followed by a #, not an alphanumeric character.
  405. # [15:35] <Igorrrrr> yeah sorry my fault
  406. # [15:35] <Igorrrrr> yeye my fault ok thank you all thanks
  407. # [15:36] <Igorrrrr> and sorry for offtopic discussion but I wanted to hear from the makers ^^
  408. # [15:36] <Igorrrrr> keep up the good work
  409. # [15:37] <zcorpan> np
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  417. # [15:48] <zcorpan> "Copyright (c) 2013 Nolan Waite. All rights reserved." https://github.com/nolanw/HTMLReader
  418. # [15:52] * dwim is now known as dwim_away
  419. # [15:53] <jgraham> zcorpan: It's iOS, he probably wants to chage you $0.99 to use it
  420. # [15:53] * Parts: jreading (~Adium@204.56.125.50)
  421. # [15:54] <jgraham> Although it also says public-domain
  422. # [15:54] <gsnedders> Where does it say that?
  423. # [15:54] <gsnedders> Oh, in podspec.
  424. # [15:55] <gsnedders> Someone should file an issue on that. I vote zcorpan or jgraham, as they noticed the contradiction.
  425. # [15:55] <zcorpan> i'll file
  426. # [15:57] <zcorpan> there
  427. # [15:57] <gsnedders> hsivonen: Also, now you're back from no-internet-land, you might be interested in all the various changes to html5lib-tests
  428. # [15:58] <hsivonen> gsnedders: ok
  429. # [15:58] <gsnedders> hsivonen: (Mainly in case you think I've accepted any pull request I shouldn't have)
  430. # [15:58] * hsivonen is now working through bugzilla needinfos
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  432. # [16:03] <hsivonen> annevk: so charset menu non-using sessions account for somewhere between 99.98% and 99.99% of Firefox sessions
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  441. # [16:07] <annevk> hsivonen: wow
  442. # [16:08] <annevk> so .015 * .5B
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  446. # [16:09] <annevk> that's still a lot of sessions, although the stats are a bit off I'm sure
  447. # [16:11] <annevk> jgraham: so there's input, base, canonical, and then up to nine components
  448. # [16:12] <annevk> jgraham: with maybe more components in the future, depending on how we do this
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  450. # [16:12] <jgraham> annevk: Can you make the components optional somehow?
  451. # [16:12] <jgraham> Or perhaps they are deterministic once you have canonical?
  452. # [16:14] <annevk> Maybe if I write down the actual components and not what's exposed to JavaScript and then do the normalization later on...
  453. # [16:15] <annevk> The JavaScript components don't expose all the details. E.g. /html? and /html both have .search as ""
  454. # [16:16] <annevk> Maybe it could be something like input{space}base{space}[u:{username}][p:{password] etc.
  455. # [16:16] <annevk> And if you want a space, use \s or some such?
  456. # [16:17] <annevk> And \r, \n, \t should be there I guess and maybe some generic escape
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  460. # [16:29] <annevk> I guess I could even optimize by making the base the same as the line before if you just use two spaces
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  466. # [16:47] <hsivonen> annevk: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=865916#c55
  467. # [16:49] <annevk> That's pretty interesting. I guess it means it's less and less needed to have this menu...
  468. # [16:52] <hsivonen> too bad I didn't include code to test for Ruby's Postulate
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  478. # [17:13] * zcorpan notices tpac TAG meetings are Member Confidential http://www.w3.org/2013/11/TPAC/
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  480. # [17:14] <hsivonen> where's the reform?!?!
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  482. # [17:15] <zcorpan> annevk: i'm very much dissappoint!!
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  485. # [17:22] <annevk> I'll ask. I didn't even know.
  486. # [17:22] <annevk> You're all welcome though. The chairs can fix that error.
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  511. # [18:10] <annevk> So I got this format now:
  512. # [18:10] <annevk> http://example\t.\norg http://example.org/foo/bar s:http h:example.org p:/
  513. # [18:10] <annevk> http://user:pass@foo:21/bar;par?b#c s:http u:user pass:pass h:foo port:21 p:/bar;par q:?b f:#c
  514. # [18:10] <annevk> http:foo.com s:http h:example.org p:/foo/foo.com
  515. # [18:12] <annevk> I guess I should just go with that for now and ask for wider input later...
  516. # [18:12] <SimonSapin> annevk: what if the path contains " q:"?
  517. # [18:13] <annevk> SimonSapin: what about it?
  518. # [18:13] <annevk> SimonSapin: ooh, that would become \sq:
  519. # [18:13] <SimonSapin> isn’t that syntax ambiguous?
  520. # [18:13] <SimonSapin> oh
  521. # [18:14] <annevk> I guess I could make it tab-separated as that's more conventional. I'm not a big fan of tabs
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  524. # [18:15] <jgraham> No, tab seperated is bas
  525. # [18:15] <jgraham> *bad
  526. # [18:15] <jgraham> I would rather just escape spaces in some way
  527. # [18:15] <jgraham> So the \s thing seems fine
  528. # [18:16] <annevk> Why is it bad?
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  530. # [18:17] <jgraham> Because literal tab characters are hard to enter in many editors
  531. # [18:17] <jgraham> And it's easy to accidentially add spaces rather than tabs
  532. # [18:18] <annevk> Yeah makes sense, that's why I preferred spaces too
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  538. # [18:25] <annevk> And I guess I'll go with "#{anything}" lines are ignored and " #{anything}" at the end of line are ignored too for comments
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  569. # [19:36] <TabAtkins> zcorpan, SimonSapin: Yeah, on further review, I think the squashing of duplicates goes in Cascade, not Syntax. I'll rejigger things.
  570. # [19:37] <TabAtkins> zcorpan: It should work fine, I guess. It just uses a bunch of Bert's preprocessor shortcuts, which Anolis also uses. You'd just need to write your own boilerplate files (the stuff in the /include dir). (Feel free to PR me with them if you do so.)
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  574. # [19:44] <TabAtkins> zcorpan: Note that Shepherd already parses non-CSS specs to look for anchors: http://test.csswg.org/shepherd/api/spec
  575. # [19:44] <TabAtkins> zcorpan: You can just ask plinss if you want more to show up in that list.
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  577. # [19:45] <zcorpan> TabAtkins: ok. i'll look into moving over cssom at some point
  578. # [19:45] <TabAtkins> zcorpan: Cool. I can play with it first if you'd like.
  579. # [19:46] <TabAtkins> Also: name suggestions for my processor?
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  582. # [19:54] <zcorpan> some online name generator suggests Dead Fist
  583. # [19:55] <TabAtkins> zcorpan: SOLD
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  588. # [20:02] <zcorpan> quick search for 'dead fist' gives http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neil_Burke and http://www.fanfiction.net/s/7800685/1/Dead-Fist
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  591. # [20:03] <TabAtkins> Both of these seem appropriate to link to my processor.
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  595. # [20:06] <zcorpan> annevk: what is this url syntax thing for?
  596. # [20:06] <annevk> zcorpan: portable test format
  597. # [20:06] <zcorpan> ah
  598. # [20:07] <annevk> need something that supports lone surrogates and is fairly easy to write and supports comments
  599. # [20:07] <annevk> and since writing parsers is easy...
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  601. # [20:09] <zcorpan> so you support character escapes for lone surrogates?
  602. # [20:09] <annevk> haven't really figured out exactly whether I want code units or code point escapes
  603. # [20:10] <annevk> I suspect \u{SIX HEX DIGITS} so e.g. \u00FFFD will be the format
  604. # [20:10] <annevk> well, unless code units, in which case \uFFFD
  605. # [20:11] <annevk> code units might be fine
  606. # [20:11] <zcorpan> i think code units seems saner if you want to represent surrogates
  607. # [20:12] <annevk> Unicode does both, but then maybe Unicode is insane
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  609. # [20:14] <zcorpan> i guess more of an historical quirk
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  611. # [20:18] <TabAtkins> Yeah, surrogates are a quirk. UTF-16 is the weird insane encoding.
  612. # [20:19] <TabAtkins> annevk: What's the best way to invoke Encoding to ensure that CSS doesn't receive unpaired surrogates?
  613. # [20:19] <TabAtkins> annevk: None of the encodings allow them - you can only get them via setting manually-created strings in JS.
  614. # [20:19] <annevk> TabAtkins: you'll get surrogates through JS
  615. # [20:20] <annevk> TabAtkins: that's right
  616. # [20:20] <TabAtkins> Can we just say to parse JS strings as UTF-16, so those surrogates turn into fffd?
  617. # [20:22] <annevk> TabAtkins: You can have all the API interactions make use of http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/WebIDL/#dfn-obtain-unicode currently [EnsureUTF16] in IDL, however, it's not entirely clear what that buys us
  618. # [20:22] <annevk> TabAtkins: except for worse perf
  619. # [20:22] * ojan_away is now known as ojan
  620. # [20:22] <annevk> I had this discussion with SimonSapin earlier
  621. # [20:22] <TabAtkins> Ah, kk. ^_^
  622. # [20:23] <annevk> We've been talking a lot about strings lately. Need to figure out the story for Servo too... My feeling at the moment is that we're rather stuck with the 16-bit integers
  623. # [20:23] <SimonSapin> JS strings are insane
  624. # [20:24] <annevk> Hmm, could be worse, like Python :p
  625. # [20:24] <SimonSapin> come on :p
  626. # [20:24] <SimonSapin> there are no accidental lone surrogate in python
  627. # [20:24] <TabAtkins> It's true, Python's strings are worse than JS.
  628. # [20:24] <TabAtkins> No, there's accidental encoding errors FUCKING EVERYWHERE.
  629. # [20:25] <Domenic_> ES6 supports \u{123456}
  630. # [20:25] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: embrace the Unicode Sandwich: http://nedbatchelder.com/text/unipain.html#h_Pain_relief
  631. # [20:26] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: JS doesn’t even have bytes, so sure you don’t get errors for byte/text conversions
  632. # [20:27] <Domenic_> Unicode in ES6 http://www.slideshare.net/domenicdenicola/es6-is-nigh/40 + http://www.slideshare.net/domenicdenicola/es6-is-nigh/41
  633. # [20:28] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: also you could do yourself a favor and switch to Python 3
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  636. # [20:29] <TabAtkins> Yeah, prolly should.
  637. # [20:30] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: I doubt implementers will agree to do character decoding on JS strings
  638. # [20:30] <zcorpan> TabAtkins: just let the lone surrogates through, i'd say
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  641. # [20:30] <SimonSapin> close you eyes and pretend you haven’t seen them
  642. # [20:30] <zcorpan> TabAtkins: like document.write and the DOM API
  643. # [20:31] <SimonSapin> also, "Unicode scalar values" is just ridiculous
  644. # [20:32] <zcorpan> put it on the band names wiki page
  645. # [20:32] <annevk> Domenic_: yeah, as a syntax feature that makes sense
  646. # [20:32] <annevk> Domenic_: haven't seen that iterator in the draft yet though
  647. # [20:33] <Domenic_> annevk: good point, i wonder if it was just forgotten or if consensus has changed since i put those slides together
  648. # [20:34] <annevk> I vaguely recall now it'll go in a module of sorts
  649. # [20:34] <annevk> Found out the other day ES6 has already been taking close to 4 years and the draft still has many holes...
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  651. # [20:36] <Ms2ger> Ah, versioned standards
  652. # [20:40] <zcorpan> SimonSapin: fwiw getDefaultComputedStyle exists in gecko. whether it's expensive or not i dunno
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  658. # [20:55] <SimonSapin> zcorpan: what does it do?
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  661. # [20:55] <zcorpan> SimonSapin: basically the same as .defaultStyle in CSSOM
  662. # [20:56] <zcorpan> SimonSapin: returns cascaded style without author styles
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  670. # [21:03] <zcorpan> or computed style
  671. # [21:03] <zcorpan> i guess i should remove defaultStyle
  672. # [21:04] <zcorpan> and being even more anal about use cases in the future
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  690. # [21:58] <zcorpan> hmm, seems http://www.w3.org/2009/07/webidl-check doesn't check for errors in extended attributes
  691. # [21:59] <zcorpan> maybe that's intentional
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  694. # [21:59] <zcorpan> but not good for spec-writing
  695. # [21:59] <Ms2ger> Extended attributes are for distributed extensibility
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  697. # [22:00] <Hixie> hsivonen: can you elaborate on your question about <template> and <title>? I don't recall doing anything special for <title> when merging <template> in
  698. # [22:01] <Hixie> hsivonen: support for <frame> was dropped because as specified before it was quite broken, and actually making it work seemed like a lot of effort for something that has been deprecated for like 15 years
  699. # [22:01] <zcorpan> Ms2ger: then webidl shouldn't use them for its own features
  700. # [22:02] <Ms2ger> That's probably fair
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  703. # [22:05] <jsbell> We could prefix (etc) the ones used by browser implementations to control code generation, if we can agree on a syntax. For blink we just have a doc that marks them as as non-standard or links to the standard clause.
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  705. # [22:06] <Ms2ger> Well, the idea is that specs can extend it too
  706. # [22:06] <Ms2ger> I believe webgl even does that
  707. # [22:07] <zcorpan> nice, i'll replace all my spec prose with a custom extended attribute
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  709. # [22:08] <zcorpan> the meaning of which i define in an appendix
  710. # [22:09] <Hixie> oooh, good idea
  711. # [22:09] <Hixie> we can replace all our specs with one spec that has one IDL block
  712. # [22:09] <Hixie> [Browser]
  713. # [22:09] <Hixie> [Browser] means "follow these specs..."
  714. # [22:10] <Ms2ger> "...and don't follow these"
  715. # [22:14] <nimbu> zcorpan: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=17518 most browsers dont obey that
  716. # [22:14] <nimbu> so i guess i would have to file browser bugsssss :||||||
  717. # [22:14] <nimbu> and i dont even remember or have the code.
  718. # [22:17] <Hixie> how the heck is this happening: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=884795
  719. # [22:17] <Hixie> happens in both chrome and firefox
  720. # [22:17] <Hixie> but i can't work out why
  721. # [22:17] <Hixie> there's no furthest block, so the AAA should just go 1-9 and stop, no?
  722. # [22:18] <zcorpan> Hixie: my testing suggests that blink and gecko do follow that. http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/2445
  723. # [22:18] <zcorpan> er
  724. # [22:18] <zcorpan> s/Hixie/numbu/
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  728. # [22:20] <Hixie> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?saved=2446
  729. # [22:20] <Hixie> removing the attribute fixes it
  730. # [22:20] <Hixie> wtf
  731. # [22:21] <Hixie> oh.... http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#push-onto-the-list-of-active-formatting-elements
  732. # [22:21] <Hixie> the Noah's Ark clause
  733. # [22:23] <Hixie> but wait, no, that should still not matter
  734. # [22:28] <Hixie> ohhh, i get it
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  738. # [22:30] <zcorpan> Hixie: "If formatting element is not the current node, this is a parse error. (But do not abort these steps.)" doesn't explain the behavior but still seems relevant
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  740. # [22:30] <zcorpan> step 7 or AAA
  741. # [22:30] <Hixie> what's going on is this:
  742. # [22:30] <Hixie> after <code a> <code> <code><code><code>
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  744. # [22:31] <Hixie> there's four <code>s on the formatting list
  745. # [22:31] <Hixie> and five on the stack
  746. # [22:31] <Hixie> and the ones on the list are given precedence for some reason
  747. # [22:31] <Hixie> so then the last three get closed and you see the next </code>
  748. # [22:31] <Hixie> and it closes the first one (<code a>) rather than the second one, because the first is on the list and the second isn't
  749. # [22:33] <zcorpan> so it should look at the stack of open elements and not leave the list of formatting elements alone if it's not in that list?
  750. # [22:33] <zcorpan> and step 7 should probably also just look at the stack of open elements
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  753. # [22:35] <Hixie> I think the solution is to make the AAA check the stack first and only do its stuff if the current node isn't a matching formatting element, yeah.
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  755. # [22:37] * Hixie files a spec bug
  756. # [22:37] <Hixie> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=22926
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The end :)