/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2013-08-14 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Aug 14 00:00:00 2013
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] <Hixie> that entire thread is baffling
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  11. # [00:19] <Domenic_> That's pretty standard... HTMLElement.prototype = Object.create(Element.prototype); Element.prototype = Object.create(Node.prototype); ... that's how JS inheritance works...
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  24. # [00:35] <TabAtkins> Yeah, your prototype won't be instanceof your leaf class, but it should be instanceof any superclasses.
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  40. # [01:07] <Hixie> interesting definition of "instanceof"
  41. # [01:09] <TabAtkins> The definition is "take the prototype of the RHS, then walk the prototype chain of the LHS until you either find a match or hit null/cycle"
  42. # [01:10] <TabAtkins> Prototypal inheritance is different from classical inheritance.
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  44. # [01:18] <Hixie> i would expect "instanceof" to tell me if something is an instance of something, and it's not clear to me that a prototype of an element is an instance of Node
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  51. # [01:35] <TabAtkins> That's because you don't intuitively understand what prototypal inheritance does. It's very natural that your prototype is an instance of your superclass.
  52. # [01:36] <TabAtkins> The two basic patterns are very similar - one's the "examplar" pattern, where the prototype is some "typical" instance of the superclass.
  53. # [01:36] <TabAtkins> The other is where the prototype chains are actually separate objects from the instances, and so don't have any per-instance state.
  54. # [01:37] <TabAtkins> But regardless, yes, you are instanceof your class, your prototype is instanceof your superclass, etc.
  55. # [01:38] <TabAtkins> (Domenic's example was the second type - using Object.create to just make fresh objects with the right prototype, rather than going through the constructor to achieve the same thing and possibly getting per-instance state added to you.)
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  57. # [01:39] <TabAtkins> You really *shouldn't* be type-checking your prototypes (it doesn't make sense if you're not using examplars, and even then doesn't make very much sense), but if you do, that's the answer you get.
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  63. # [02:00] <rniwa> sicking: yt?
  64. # [02:01] <rniwa> does anyone from Mozilla here knows about Attr node?
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  70. # [02:20] <Hixie> TabAtkins: might be "natural", but it's hardly useful :-)
  71. # [02:21] <Hixie> TabAtkins: i don't understand how the Element prototype can be said to be an instance of a Node, though
  72. # [02:21] <Hixie> TabAtkins: i understand that it's instanceof
  73. # [02:21] <Hixie> but it's not an instance of
  74. # [02:21] <Hixie> in any useful sense
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  131. # [05:13] <TabAtkins> Hixie: If DOM used the "examplar" pattern, then the Element prototype would be a "typical" node, whatever that meant.
  132. # [05:13] <Hixie> if it was an actual Node I wouldn't mind it being called instanceof Node
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  145. # [05:56] <heycam> the typical node would be <img src=cat.jpg>
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  189. # [08:51] <Ms2ger> rniwa, you called?
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  246. # [10:51] <Ms2ger> Hrm, http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker?from=8142&to=8143 seems empty
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  253. # [11:04] <Lachy> zcorpan, Hixie, re comments about details http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20130813#l-794 the difficulties in Opera were related to the fact that Opera didn't implement XBL or shadow DOM and we were trying to find a way to ensure authors could still apply styles in a sane way. I did mail whatwg about this at the time.
  254. # [11:05] <zcorpan> Lachy: ok, so assuming shadow DOM is supported, there's no inherent problem with the spec that should be fixed?
  255. # [11:06] <annevk> Ms2ger: looks like svn.whatwg.org is timing out and therefore something got cached wrongly...
  256. # [11:06] <Lachy> I think even with a shadow dom, there were issues that were difficult to solve. I'll look up my original mail about it all.
  257. # [11:06] <zcorpan> Ms2ger: i think that happens when it gets loaded by someone before it exists (e.g. by clicking the 'Next' link). it caches an empty result
  258. # [11:08] <Lachy> http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/whatwg-whatwg.org/2011-April/031132.html
  259. # [11:09] <zcorpan> getDiff should probably check if the diff is empty before caching it
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  264. # [11:18] <annevk> or like, not cache anything at all...
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  272. # [11:31] <zcorpan> isn't the cache there for a reason?
  273. # [11:36] <jgraham> I think it's worse that webkit did implement <details> than that gecko didn't
  274. # [11:36] <jgraham> At least the implementation seemed quite broken at one time
  275. # [11:40] <annevk> http://src.chromium.org/viewvc/blink?view=revision&revision=155513 the URLs cited here are just scary...
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  284. # [11:48] <jgraham> Yeah, that should be a r- for not reading the right specs
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  286. # [11:55] <jgraham> https://github.com/google/gumbo-parser
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  288. # [11:59] <annevk> and "DOM4"? lol
  289. # [12:01] <annevk> Ms2ger: fixed diff
  290. # [12:01] * annevk looks into fixing the actual issue
  291. # [12:03] <annevk> zcorpan: getDiff already does the empty check
  292. # [12:03] <zcorpan> annevk: oh
  293. # [12:03] <annevk> zcorpan: I guess these days maybe something is returned that's not entirely empty
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  295. # [12:06] <annevk> meh
  296. # [12:06] <annevk> should really rewrite the tool some day
  297. # [12:09] <jgraham> Use the git backend. That should make things easier as long as you have enough space to store the whole checkou
  298. # [12:09] <jgraham> And, if it's on github, set up a hook for the updates
  299. # [12:10] <annevk> go for it
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  301. # [12:18] <smaug____> odinho: I disagree. (EventSource and utf-8)
  302. # [12:18] <odinho> :)
  303. # [12:18] <smaug____> but it clearly is a bug in the spec, at least
  304. # [12:19] <smaug____> if we can't agree what the spec says
  305. # [12:19] <odinho> Sure
  306. # [12:19] <annevk> ?
  307. # [12:19] * annevk is missing context
  308. # [12:20] <odinho> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=869878
  309. # [12:20] <odinho> [eventsource] When encoding charset=windows-1252, Firefox goes to onmessage() but not onerror().
  310. # [12:22] <jgraham> I think the spec is clear
  311. # [12:22] <jgraham> You decode the data as UTF-8 regardless
  312. # [12:23] <jgraham> I sort of assumed that was what the test was checking
  313. # [12:23] <jgraham> If it isn't, it needs to be fixed
  314. # [12:25] <odinho> Yes, it can clearly be seen that way. I might have been too hung up on trying to force authors to do no stupid.
  315. # [12:26] <odinho> If they say windows-1252 they might mean it. And thinks everything will be okay.
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  317. # [12:26] <odinho> Then they will WTF that the browser is decoding in a weird way.
  318. # [12:26] <odinho> And blame the browser. Because they're giving correct infoz.
  319. # [12:26] <jgraham> Well sure
  320. # [12:26] <jgraham> Or they might not mean it
  321. # [12:27] <odinho> If the browser complained, and didn't work at the windows-1252, it's much more understandable (from the beginning), that they have to fix it.
  322. # [12:27] <jgraham> In any case the spec says what it does. You could argue that it ought to say something different
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  324. # [12:27] <jgraham> however if all browsers agree, it doesn't seem like much of a sharp edge
  325. # [12:28] <odinho> And it can also complain in the error log.
  326. # [12:29] <annevk> I remember EventSource saying something silly about charset
  327. # [12:30] <annevk> It no longer does
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  329. # [12:34] <annevk> odinho: I don't see how you can read the spec in any other way
  330. # [12:34] <annevk> odinho: it's extremely clear
  331. # [12:35] <annevk> odinho: "HTTP 200 OK responses with a Content-Type header specifying the type text/event-stream, ignoring any MIME type parameters, must be processed line by line as described below."
  332. # [12:35] <annevk> odinho: "as described below" is a link
  333. # [12:35] <annevk> odinho: "Streams must be decoded using the UTF-8 decode algorithm."
  334. # [12:35] <annevk> odinho: done
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  336. # [13:04] <odinho> It is extremely clear. I took a shortcut. :)
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  338. # [13:04] <odinho> :/ Better go look at some kitten pictures.
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  349. # [13:40] <annevk> Why is there no convenient way to define getters and setters within an object constructor in JavaScript?
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  351. # [13:42] <Ms2ger> { get foo() { }, set foo(v) { } }
  352. # [13:42] <Ms2ger> ?
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  368. # [14:23] <hsivonen> Yucca is on StackOverflow http://stackoverflow.com/users/1084437/jukka-k-korpela
  369. # [14:23] * hsivonen was not aware
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  378. # [14:42] <annevk> Ms2ger: that's an object literal, constructor is more like function X(x) { this.blah = x }
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  380. # [14:42] <Ms2ger> Object.defineProperty, then, I guess
  381. # [14:42] <Ms2ger> Somewhat sucky
  382. # [14:44] <annevk> hsivonen: found http://unicode.org/mail-arch/unicode-ml/y2005-m11/0060.html via that, kinda want to start using ⊎1F4A9 in specifications now...
  383. # [14:44] <annevk> Ms2ger: right
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  386. # [14:51] * hsivonen makes a mental note of MULTISET UNION
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  388. # [14:53] <annevk> the kind of thing to impress the manager with :p
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  391. # [14:56] <annevk> https://github.com/google/gumbo-parser#readme why is perf a non-goal?
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  394. # [15:00] <hsivonen> Must. look. away. from. the. StackOverflow. utf-16. tag.
  395. # [15:01] <hsivonen> also, tags surrogate-pair and utf-32
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  397. # [15:02] <hsivonen> so much opportunity for 386
  398. # [15:02] <annevk> they're empty for me
  399. # [15:03] <hsivonen> good for you
  400. # [15:04] <annevk> hah
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  405. # [15:13] <annevk> It seems I keep rediscovering I need Object.defineProperties and I keep hating it
  406. # [15:14] <jgraham> annevk: Presumably because it makes it easier to finish the project if your goal is "correctness" rather than "correctness and perf"
  407. # [15:15] <jgraham> (you might choose to do things that are non-optimal from a perf point of view to handle very deeply nested documents, for example)
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  411. # [15:22] <hsivonen> 1.1 > 1.0 and 2000 > "": https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=233154#c21
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  413. # [15:25] <annevk> hsivonen: in his duplicate "Severity: normal → blocker"
  414. # [15:26] * Ms2ger tends to ignore such comments
  415. # [15:27] <annevk> I kinda feel like posting: "Dude, XML 1.1 is not well established. It was a compromise for IBM mainframes and later thought of as unnecessary. Just ask the W3C XML Core WG."
  416. # [15:27] <Ms2ger> Do you think that would help?
  417. # [15:28] <annevk> maybe?
  418. # [15:28] <darobin_> help who being the question
  419. # [15:28] * darobin_ is now known as darobin
  420. # [15:28] <jgraham> I presume annevk would be labelled as "disturbed"
  421. # [15:29] <annevk> jgraham: that doesn't seem entirely without reason
  422. # [15:31] <jgraham> I wonder how long before we need to support for HTTP/2 or SPDY for testing
  423. # [15:32] <annevk> is there an FTP server yet which we can fiddle with?
  424. # [15:33] <annevk> that's one legacy protocol that has browser support to some extent but is not very well tested in conjunction with other stuff
  425. # [15:33] <jgraham> I know chrome has one somewhere in the repo.
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  439. # [15:53] <GPHemsley> Hixie: Your e-mail client tags your messages as en-GB-hixie instead of en-GB-x-hixie
  440. # [15:54] <GPHemsley> What's the best way to filter mail from a mailing list?
  441. # [15:55] <GPHemsley> (e.g. the whatwg one)
  442. # [15:55] <annevk> Gmail
  443. # [15:57] <GPHemsley> I was looking more for an answer that contained an e-mail header
  444. # [15:59] <Ms2ger> There's one, no?
  445. # [16:00] <annevk> List-Id: Public mailing list for the WHAT working group <whatwg-whatwg.org> ?
  446. # [16:00] <annevk> just look at a random message
  447. # [16:00] <jgraham> GPHemsley: To or CC?
  448. # [16:01] * GPHemsley was hoping for an answer from someone who had already done it
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  450. # [16:02] <jgraham> Well I use filter on To or CC in Thunderbird
  451. # [16:03] <jgraham> So I have done it and gave you the answer that I use
  452. # [16:03] <jgraham> Of course I can't prove that it's the "best" way to do it
  453. # [16:04] <annevk> I gave you the answer Gmail uses...
  454. # [16:04] * Joins: jreading (~Adium@204.56.125.50)
  455. # [16:04] <annevk> (Or well, I'm pretty sure they use that... Plus some other magic I guess.)
  456. # [16:08] <GPHemsley> alright, thanks
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  461. # [16:39] <annevk> Landed the URL work... That feels better, it being all on GH now. Now testharness.js integration I suppose.
  462. # [16:43] <jgraham> URL?
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  468. # [16:54] <annevk> https://github.com/annevk/url/
  469. # [16:55] <annevk> I guess at this point I should also rename the polyfill from URL to jURL
  470. # [16:56] * reyre_ is now known as reyre
  471. # [17:00] <zewt> heh another bug i reported to firefox countless years ago suddenly closed as "worksforme", even though it still happens identically
  472. # [17:00] <zewt> the "ignore tickets for years then close it for a bogus reason, hoping the reporter isn't paying attention any more" strategy
  473. # [17:00] <hsivonen> zewt: URL?
  474. # [17:01] <zewt> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=518012
  475. # [17:03] <hsivonen> zewt: comment 3 is not cool. Sorry about that.
  476. # [17:03] <zewt> i mean, closing it with "wontfix: we're okay with this behavior" then sure, but that's not what happened
  477. # [17:03] <hsivonen> I'm always annoyed then the Ubuntu folks do this to me over at Launchpad
  478. # [17:04] <hsivonen> I don't really report Ubuntu bugs anymore
  479. # [17:07] <hsivonen> I like it how Hallvord investigates open evang bugs even if they were opened in 2004
  480. # [17:07] <zewt> same with debian, though it's probably hard to generalize there (since reporting a bug to debian will go to one of probably thousands of people at this point)
  481. # [17:08] <zewt> (usually with packages I'll just go to upstream, though)
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  483. # [17:09] <jgraham> I guess it is mildly better than the "your bug got closed by a bot because we didn't even look at it" thing
  484. # [17:09] <jgraham> But yeah, that wasn't the right response
  485. # [17:10] <zewt> i've had the "go repro this bug and reply or we'll auto-close this ticket" bot thing, which was the start of my giving up on FF bugs
  486. # [17:11] <jgraham> Firefox does that too? I thought it was a Google thing
  487. # [17:11] <zewt> ("we've ignored this for too long, so we need you to do more work to allow us to continue ignoring it")
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  489. # [17:11] <zewt> i thought it was a firefox one, though it was a long time ago now, maybe it was stopped?
  490. # [17:11] <hsivonen> jgraham: depends on module
  491. # [17:11] <Ms2ger> There's some people who do that
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  493. # [17:12] <Domenic_> annevk: sweet, if the polyfill is mature maybe we can integrate it into Node in some form to fix a few of their URL-parsing bugs.
  494. # [17:12] <jgraham> Oh, that's sad
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  499. # [17:14] <svl> Happened twice, afair; though lots of module owners opted out of it for their modules
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  501. # [17:14] <zewt> i mean, i sort of understand the problem, when it's a major product receiving more tickets than they can handle (bug numbers in the 700000s are no joke), but...
  502. # [17:14] <Ms2ger> 900000s
  503. # [17:15] <zewt> but if they can't handle it, that's just another thing discouraging reporting
  504. # [17:15] <zewt> (i don't know firefox development, so I don't actually know if that's a major factor)
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  506. # [17:16] <svl> Anything rendering-related tends to be fine; it's mostly just UI bugs which overwhelm the capacity of triagers
  507. # [17:16] <zewt> yeah i suppose it'll be very different based on component
  508. # [17:16] <Ms2ger> Once you get into Core, you're probably fine
  509. # [17:16] <hsivonen> svl: also anything rendering related filed under Firefox rather than Core
  510. # [17:16] <jgraham> Mass cleanups sometimes seem less problematic than auto-closing all bugs that haven't been touched for a few months. But still not ideal for real bugs
  511. # [17:17] <svl> yeah, true
  512. # [17:17] <Ms2ger> Most engineers seem to not like mass cleanups, in my experience
  513. # [17:17] <hsivonen> I find non-Core bugs pretty frustrating, too, and am somewhat discouraged from filing them
  514. # [17:17] <Ms2ger> But they also can't do all the triage while still doing their own job
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  517. # [17:21] <zewt> oh, the one I'm thinking of was a "repro this or it'll close automatically", but doesn't appear to be a bot
  518. # [17:23] <zewt> and it was a case where I'd spent a fairly long time digging in trying to find a performance regression (439268)
  519. # [17:23] <zewt> oh well, i'll stop bitching now
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  536. # [17:42] <annevk> Domenic_: the main thing that's lacking I just remembered is IDNA support
  537. # [17:43] <annevk> Domenic_: I think matjas might have something for that to some extent, but it needs more specification work
  538. # [17:43] <annevk> (and integration into jURL)
  539. # [17:43] <Domenic_> annevk: https://github.com/joyent/node/blob/master/lib/url.js#L252-L265
  540. # [17:44] <Domenic_> annevk: uses matjas
  541. # [17:44] <Domenic_> 's URL thing
  542. # [17:44] <Domenic_> punycode thing, rather
  543. # [17:45] <annevk> Domenic_: it seems to not just matjas' splitting function
  544. # [17:45] <annevk> Domenic_: splitting on "." to get domain labels is a bug
  545. # [17:45] <annevk> there's four different type of dots
  546. # [17:45] <annevk> but I guess that's not the only bug in that library
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  549. # [17:52] <matjas> Domenic_: afaict, replacing these lines https://github.com/joyent/node/blob/d2b80b8a60bf1e966a4091e62bb603fb825a6ada/lib/url.js#L257-L264 with `this.hostname = punycode.toASCII(this.hostname);` would do the trick
  550. # [17:53] <Domenic_> matjas: nice. hopefully annevk can use that in jURL and then we can just shove jURL into node
  551. # [17:54] <annevk> not quite, IDNA is more complicated :/
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  554. # [17:55] <annevk> zewt: I found that if I don't want quality bug reports to go to waste I have to cc someone relevant
  555. # [17:55] <annevk> zewt: not ideal, but not too bad either
  556. # [17:56] <Ms2ger> annevk, or get them into the right component :)
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  558. # [18:00] <JonathanNeal> "feminist restaurant chain hooters"
  559. # [18:01] * Joins: enr (~enr@static-88.131.87.100.addr.tdcsong.se)
  560. # [18:02] <JonathanNeal> "richard dawkin's evangelical bible study"
  561. # [18:04] * Joins: cabanier (~cabanier@192.150.22.55)
  562. # [18:05] <JonathanNeal> "0 day torrent seeder recording industry association of america"
  563. # [18:05] <Ms2ger> Hmm?
  564. # [18:06] <JonathanNeal> bustle
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  569. # [18:15] <jgraham> I think JonathanNeal left his sense of logic at the door
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  573. # [18:15] <JonathanNeal> jgraham: the headline on bustle was "feminist restaurant chain hooters".
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  576. # [18:18] <JonathanNeal> Oh, but I thought I was talking in another channel. Ohhwwwwwhhhoooooops.
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  611. # [18:54] <annevk_> Oops, accidentally relied on Number.parseInt to work
  612. # [18:55] * annevk_ is now known as annevk
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  616. # [18:59] <TabAtkins> One of the classic blunders!
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  618. # [19:00] <TabAtkins> Fun times: try and predict what [10, 10, 10, 10].map(parseInt) will return.
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  620. # [19:02] <Ms2ger> I guessed something like what it does
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  623. # [19:06] <jgraham> I know this! (fwiw I think you could also argue that the surprise is a problem with map providing multiple arguments)
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  625. # [19:09] <annevk> TabAtkins: it works in Gecko, broke down in Chrome
  626. # [19:09] <annevk> I think it's new in ES6 to have it exposed there, but I don't really know the rationale
  627. # [19:09] <TabAtkins> jgraham: Yes, that's the surprise.
  628. # [19:09] <annevk> Maybe new global objects won't expose it or some such?
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  630. # [19:14] <jgraham> TabAtkins: I sort of thought people thought it was a problem with parseInt
  631. # [19:14] <jgraham> But maybe I am wrong
  632. # [19:15] <TabAtkins> jgraham: No, the base argument to parseInt is a good thing. The bad was the pre-ES5 behavior of magically intuiting octal if the base is unspecified and the string starts with "0".
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  634. # [19:15] <TabAtkins> It's also weird that setting base to 1 produces NaN, but setting it to 0 just ignores the base.
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  646. # [19:40] <gsnedders> jgraham, annevk, hsivonen: was html5lib or validator.nu's parser first?
  647. # [19:41] <annevk> gsnedders: I think we started December 2006, looks like hsivonen might have started before that given http://hsivonen.iki.fi/thesis/html5-conformance-checker.xhtml
  648. # [19:41] <gsnedders> Yeah, Dec '06 was html5lib, can't find any history prior to 2007 for validator.nu's parser?
  649. # [19:42] <annevk> Oh, hsivonen wrote a speculative algorithm before the specification was published
  650. # [19:42] <annevk> "I implemented an experimental HTML parser to enable checking of text/html with XML tools. I developed the parser speculatively before the HTML5 parsing algorithm was published."
  651. # [19:43] <annevk> So I guess html5lib was first in terms of a parser implementing the specification
  652. # [19:43] <annevk> Well, not counting Hixie's Sawzall's implementations here of which we got the tests
  653. # [19:43] <annevk> implementation*
  654. # [19:44] <gsnedders> The tests were from Hixie's Sawzall's impl?
  655. # [19:44] <gsnedders> Oh. I thought they were written by you lot.
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  657. # [19:47] <annevk> Not all of them, but I think the initial bunch might have been, as well as the format
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  661. # [19:53] <gsnedders> We seem to have lost history moving from svn to hg of this :(
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  675. # [20:08] <annevk> gsnedders: I found http://www.ohloh.net/p/html5lib/commits?page=5&sort=oldest
  676. # [20:08] <annevk> gsnedders: in particular http://www.ohloh.net/p/html5lib/commits/254913074
  677. # [20:09] * annevk -> food
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  689. # [20:15] <zewt> deep fried annevk
  690. # [20:16] <cwilso> grilled might be more appropriate. :)
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  718. # [21:12] <Hixie> GPHemsley: yeah, i configured it before they invented this -x- thing
  719. # [21:12] <GPHemsley> riiight
  720. # [21:13] <Ms2ger> That might well be true
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  724. # [21:16] * GPHemsley is pretty sure x- has been around since the beginning
  725. # [21:16] <GPHemsley> but ok
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  775. # [22:57] <zewt> TabAtkins: heh, i had a bug recently due to sscanf("%i") (vs. %d) assuming octal for 0*, which caused code to break ... in August
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  777. # [22:58] <zewt> pox upon whoever decided having %i and %d be the same with printf, but different with scanf
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  808. # [23:32] <ball999> in for loop I need boolean for second argument right? and while the boolean is true the loop will run?
  809. # [23:32] <ball999> ups wrong chat
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  822. # Session Close: Thu Aug 15 00:00:00 2013

The end :)