/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2013-08-15 / end

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  194. # [11:51] <annevk> Chrome also opens data:text/xml,<?xml version="1.9"?><script xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">alert(1)</script> so whether it supports XML 1.1 or XML 1.0 5th Edition is a bit unclear
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  196. # [11:52] <jgraham> Maybe it jsut doesn't care that much since XML is a minor use case
  197. # [11:53] <annevk> No it fails on 2.0
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  200. # [11:54] <annevk> If I do data:text/xml,<?xml version="1.1"?><script%85xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">alert(1)</script> however I get "warning on line 1 at column 19: Unsupported version '1.1'"
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  208. # [12:43] <SimonSapin> annevk: https://github.com/lifthrasiir/rust-encoding
  209. # [12:44] <annevk> lucky you
  210. # [12:44] <SimonSapin> no "streaming" api though
  211. # [12:44] <annevk> oh really?
  212. # [12:44] <annevk> that's kinda essential
  213. # [12:45] <SimonSapin> yeah
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  216. # [12:55] <annevk> Apparently Dan Connolly considers XML 1.1 to be killed: http://visitmix.com/opinions/web-standards-gone-wild Too bad they didn't mark it as such so we get still harassed about it in bug reports.
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  223. # [13:08] <famicom`> does anyone know whwere i can find an authoritative spec of html5
  224. # [13:08] <famicom`> normative only please
  225. # [13:09] <annevk> famicom`: http://whatwg.org/C
  226. # [13:11] <famicom`> is there something without all the samples
  227. # [13:11] <annevk> famicom`: no, but you could execute some script or use CSS that hides them pretty easily...
  228. # [13:12] <famicom`> what element rules should i apply then
  229. # [13:12] <famicom`> good call btw
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  231. # [13:13] <famicom`> i found an xsd for html5 by MSFT but it lists put as a html method
  232. # [13:13] <famicom`> is this valid for form submission?
  233. # [13:14] <SimonSapin> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/association-of-controls-and-forms.html#attr-fs-method says no
  234. # [13:16] <annevk> famicom`: .example { display:none } .note { display:none }
  235. # [13:16] <annevk> famicom`: would go a long way
  236. # [13:16] <famicom`> thanks :)
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  239. # [13:22] <famicom`> are there any differences with the dom interface and the html5 spec?
  240. # [13:27] <annevk> famicom`: what do you mean?
  241. # [13:27] <famicom`> honestly, i need a clear and concise spec
  242. # [13:27] <famicom`> http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/strict.dtd
  243. # [13:27] <famicom`> i miss those "(
  244. # [13:29] <annevk> famicom`: that's from a time when we didn't really explain what was going on
  245. # [13:29] <Ms2ger> Their incompleteness and inaccuracy?
  246. # [13:29] <famicom`> no, their what's the term
  247. # [13:30] <famicom`> conciseness?
  248. # [13:30] <annevk> famicom`: they were concise because they were incomplete and inaccurate and full of holes
  249. # [13:31] <annevk> famicom`: if you prefer that, it's better to not read a standard, but a tutorial of sorts
  250. # [13:31] <famicom`> and you are?
  251. # [13:31] <annevk> Anne?
  252. # [13:31] <famicom`> of?
  253. # [13:31] <annevk> of?
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  255. # [13:32] <famicom`> im not following you, what is wrong with a dtd or xsd schema definitinon for that matter
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  257. # [13:32] <famicom`> i understand that html is an evolving language
  258. # [13:32] <famicom`> but we have no guidelines of what is "correct"
  259. # [13:33] <famicom`> apart from implementation
  260. # [13:33] <annevk> famicom`: reading http://hsivonen.iki.fi/thesis/html5-conformance-checker.xhtml might give you an idea of issues with schema languages
  261. # [13:33] <annevk> famicom`: actually we do, the specification covers what is correct, in English
  262. # [13:33] <famicom`> sorry
  263. # [13:35] <jgraham> I believe annevk is Anne of Kestern
  264. # [13:35] <famicom`> so there isnt a single machine parsable deifinition around
  265. # [13:35] <famicom`> hyey anne
  266. # [13:35] <famicom`> nederlander?
  267. # [13:36] <famicom`> ah ik zie het nu
  268. # [13:36] <famicom`> respect \o/
  269. # [13:36] <famicom`> i read this guys blogs before
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  271. # [13:39] <famicom`> anne is your main focuss purely markup languages?
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  280. # [14:35] <annevk> famicom`: currently URLs and platform APIs
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  282. # [14:37] <jgraham> odinho: thanks
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  304. # [15:13] <annevk> Are there places in the platform that take domain names but not "[IPv6]" notation?
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  316. # [15:32] <matjas> var dummy = document.createElement('iframe'); dummy.src = 'http://google.com/©'; console.log(dummy.src);
  317. # [15:32] <matjas> "http://google.com/%C2%A9" in Blink
  318. # [15:34] <annevk> Found another bug in https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6454 Apparently it uses IDNA 2008.
  319. # [15:34] <matjas> oh no, bad example
  320. # [15:34] <annevk> matjas: not sure what you mean by that :)
  321. # [15:34] <matjas> annevk: i was talking about something else, but gave a bad example
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  323. # [15:35] <matjas> in some browsers, a special symbol in the TLD part of the hostname gets normalized to its URL-encoded equivalent
  324. # [15:35] <matjas> in Firefox that is not the case
  325. # [15:36] <annevk> TLD is not special per any spec
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  327. # [15:37] <matjas> var dummy = document.createElement('iframe'); dummy.src = 'http://google.com℁'; console.log(dummy.src);
  328. # [15:37] <matjas> → "http://google.coma/s" in WebKit/Blink
  329. # [15:38] <matjas> no wait, just in WebKit
  330. # [15:38] <matjas> in Blink it’s "http://google.coma%2Fs/"
  331. # [15:38] <matjas> Firefox acts as WebKit
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  333. # [15:39] <annevk> That makes a surprising amount of sense, but is actually bad...
  334. # [15:40] <matjas> what behavior makes the most sense?
  335. # [15:40] <matjas> btw in old Opera 12 it’s option 3: "http://google.xn--com-cg1a/"
  336. # [15:41] <annevk> WebKit / Gecko only apply Unicode normalization. I guess Chrome then filters out certain bad code points via percent escaping. But since percent escaping doesn't make sense anymore at that point, it might be better to fail parsing the URL...
  337. # [15:41] <matjas> yeah, pretty weird
  338. # [15:42] <annevk> The normalization is what IDNA 2003 requires. But I suspect this code point is not from Unicode 3.2
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  340. # [15:42] <matjas> http://codepoints.net/U+2101 added in Unicode v1.1
  341. # [15:43] <Ms2ger> "We present JSCert, a mechanised specification of ECMAScript 5 in the Coq proof assistant, and JSRef, a reference interpreter for JavaScript extracted from Coq to OCaml."
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  343. # [15:45] <annevk> matjas: okay, then maybe the mapping is not from Unicode 3.2
  344. # [15:45] <matjas> ah, gotcha
  345. # [15:45] <annevk> matjas: cannot find 2101 in http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3454
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  348. # [15:51] <annevk> Should I be scared by http://lxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/netwerk/dns/nsIIDNService.idl#19 citing https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-idn-idna-06 rather than a final specification?
  349. # [15:51] <Domenic_> those draft URLs are the worst
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  351. # [15:51] <Domenic_> i had people filing bugs on my oauth2 library based on multi-year-old drafts
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  355. # [15:53] <annevk> Seems http://lxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/netwerk/dns/nsIDNService.cpp cites final (2003) RFCs it seems. Guess nobody updated the .idl...
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  370. # [16:17] <SimonSapin> annevk: https://github.com/lifthrasiir/rust-encoding actually does have a streaming API, just not in the readme
  371. # [16:18] <matjas> for the record, I filed https://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=273712
  372. # [16:18] <SimonSapin> It also tries to mimic the spec’s TextEncoder and TextDecoder APIs, which I think is not a great idea for non-JavaScript
  373. # [16:18] <annevk> SimonSapin: yeah, seems bad
  374. # [16:18] <annevk> SimonSapin: also seems bad to add extensions such as "ascii"
  375. # [16:19] <SimonSapin> well, it’s implemented, but not associated with any string label
  376. # [16:19] <annevk> matjas: fwiw, I'm not entirely sure what the correct behavior is, but what Gecko does is bad too as when you'd serialize and then parse the URL again you'd get a different result
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  379. # [16:23] <aleray> hi, I would like to implement typogrify/smartypants like filters using html5lib. I don't really like their approach with regex and I would like to implement more rules (for french typography). I was thinking about taking the existing htmlserializer and adding my own filters in there. DO you think it is a good idea? Any advices regarding this?
  380. # [16:23] <jgraham> That sounds quite reasonable
  381. # [16:23] <jgraham> Although I don't really know what those other things do
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  383. # [16:30] <aleray> jgraham, should I modify directly the htmlserializer? Or should it be a "Filter"?
  384. # [16:33] <annevk> matjas: it seems like 2101 changed between http://www.unicode.org/Public/3.2-Update/DerivedNormalizationProps-3.2.0.txt and http://www.unicode.org/Public/UNIDATA/DerivedNormalizationProps.txt :/
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  387. # [16:35] <jgraham> aleray: Making a filter seems to be more sensible
  388. # [16:35] <aleray> jgraham, nice thanks. I will try this
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  398. # [16:57] <aleray> jgraham, trying this simple example: http://dpaste.com/1344361/ I get an error: TypeError: unhashable type
  399. # [16:57] <aleray> any idea?
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  402. # [16:59] <jgraham> aleray: I haven't looked at the code for too long to answer off the top of my head. Can you paste the full tb?
  403. # [16:59] <aleray> jgraham, yes
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  405. # [17:00] <aleray> jgraham, http://dpaste.com/1344363/
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  408. # [17:03] <jgraham> It appears to be getting something other than a string for an attribute name
  409. # [17:05] <jgraham> But I don't know why it should see an attribute at all
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  411. # [17:12] <aleray> jgraham, the value of token is "{u'namespace': u'http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml', u'type': u'StartTag', u'name': u'p', u'data': {}}"
  412. # [17:12] <aleray> if it helps
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  414. # [17:18] <jgraham> aleray: Oh
  415. # [17:18] <jgraham> It looks like the sanitiser is expecting the attributes to be a list
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  417. # [17:18] <jgraham> I wonder if this ever worked or if gsnedders changed it recently
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  420. # [17:20] <aleray> jgraham, in my case it what just to test out the filter thing... I don't plan to use the sanitizer filter.
  421. # [17:20] <aleray> but I guess it might be useful for other people
  422. # [17:20] <gsnedders> jgraham: Ages ago.
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  424. # [17:21] <gsnedders> aleray: That is https://github.com/html5lib/html5lib-python/issues/72 no?
  425. # [17:21] <gsnedders> Or rather it is caused by that.
  426. # [17:21] <gsnedders> aleray: Look at any other filter. :)
  427. # [17:22] <gsnedders> aleray: The rest work, AFAIK.
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  429. # [17:23] <aleray> OK, so another question: I have written the following: http://dpaste.com/1344381/. It works, but the & of "&hellip;" get escaped when I serialize. so it become "&amp;hellip;"
  430. # [17:23] <aleray> can I avoid it?
  431. # [17:24] <gsnedders> aleray: You want to use the Unicode character \u2026
  432. # [17:24] <aleray> gsnedders, thanks
  433. # [17:24] <gsnedders> aleray: Instead of using the character reference. The serializer will deal with escaping things as character references as needed.
  434. # [17:24] <aleray> gsnedders, euh?
  435. # [17:24] <aleray> didn't get it
  436. # [17:25] * jgraham wonders what the objection to dropping the tokenizer sanitizer mixin was
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  438. # [17:25] <jgraham> (I was possibly the one that objected)
  439. # [17:25] <jgraham> (apart from the fact that people are using it)
  440. # [17:26] <gsnedders> aleray: The filters have no concept of character references like &hellip;. They merely have runs of characters. The serializer will convert the characters to character references if needed.
  441. # [17:26] <gsnedders> jgraham: It's going for 1.0.
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  444. # [17:27] <gsnedders> jgraham: And the tokenizer-parser distinction is becoming an internal API.
  445. # [17:27] <jgraham> Like it was in the beginning you mean :)
  446. # [17:27] <aleray> thank you both, I need to look further at it but your advices were useful
  447. # [17:27] <jgraham> I think that's quite sensible
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  449. # [17:28] <gsnedders> jgraham: Also, pip now installs 0.95 again, because it now ignores pre-release versions by default.
  450. # [17:29] <jgraham> calling it 1.0b was probably a mistake
  451. # [17:29] <jgraham> It could have been 0.99
  452. # [17:29] <jgraham> (I would support re-releasing it as 0.99)
  453. # [17:29] <jgraham> And just keep adding 9s :)
  454. # [17:32] <gsnedders> :)
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  457. # [17:34] <gsnedders> jgraham: https://github.com/html5lib/html5lib-python/pull/93 is the only API change I want to make for 1.0
  458. # [17:35] <gsnedders> jgraham: And then fix saniziter and then I think we can call it 1.0
  459. # [17:35] <Ms2ger> But it's not finished!
  460. # [17:35] <gsnedders> It never will be.
  461. # [17:36] <jgraham> gsnedders: I think "remove the tokenizer sanitizer" counts as an API change :)
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  474. # [17:53] <jgraham> Oh happy span time, github is down again
  475. # [17:53] <jgraham> *spam
  476. # [17:53] <SimonSapin> yay centralization. status.github.com "Major service outage."
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  478. # [17:53] <jgraham> Although happy span time seems almost on-topic for the channel
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  480. # [17:59] <annevk> Hmm. File.lastModifiedDate is a Date object too
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  491. # [18:18] <annevk> RFC3454 is beautiful... Section 5 states that remaining subsections are non-normative. Section 6 states "The characters in section 5.8 MUST be prohibited."
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  498. # [18:26] <zewt> heh i implemented some stringprep profile at some point ... typical rfc nightmare
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  503. # [18:29] <annevk> So yeah... I'm wondering what to do here. Just reference IDNA 2003 and override the Unicode version... Or define loads of it locally...
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  518. # [18:44] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
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  528. # [19:00] * Ms2ger found https://twitter.com/t/status/368053711794634752 funny
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  533. # [19:07] <tantek> Ms2ger did you get that today is the 227th day of the year?
  534. # [19:07] <Ms2ger> Yeah, I know you use that format
  535. # [19:08] <Ms2ger> I found the juxtaposition with the comic denouncing it funny
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  561. # [19:40] <Hixie> famicom`: a machine-readable version of the spec would just be the source code for a browser
  562. # [19:46] <Domenic_> So where does one get Anolis these days
  563. # [19:46] <Ms2ger> bitbucket
  564. # [19:47] <Domenic_> so i have to install hg, fun times
  565. # [19:47] <Domenic_> the setup instructions at http://hg.gsnedders.com/anolis/raw-file/1.0/README.html are accurate still, despite the new repo location?
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  568. # [19:49] <Ms2ger> Should be pretty much the same, yes
  569. # [19:50] <Ms2ger> Or http://pythonhosted.org/anolis/
  570. # [19:50] <Ms2ger> Oh, you can probably also use pip or whatever
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  623. # [21:47] <zcorpan> <base href=about:blank> isn't something i've considered before
  624. # [21:48] <zcorpan> seems it's ignored in blink
  625. # [21:49] <zcorpan> not ignored in gecko but gecko doesn't like resolving to about:blank, or something, at least clicking the link here does nothing http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/2461
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  632. # [22:09] <zcorpan> i wonder if we can change setProperty(value) without the priority argument to just change the value and not the priority
  633. # [22:10] <zcorpan> it seems a bit unexpected that it unsets !important
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  638. # [22:18] <TabAtkins> zcorpan: I'll bet we could.
  639. # [22:19] <TabAtkins> zcorpan: I'm betting most applications don't realize they're unsetting !important, and that for nearly all, it doesn't actually matter.
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  641. # [22:19] <zcorpan> yeah. and when it does matter, it means that the new value doesn't get applied, which seems like a bug in the code
  642. # [22:20] <TabAtkins> Right.
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  644. # [22:21] <zcorpan> suggested that on the list
  645. # [22:21] <zcorpan> i'm not supposed to be working today :-P
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  650. # [22:29] <Domenic_> darobin: respec.js is *so good*
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  662. # [22:44] <Hixie> man, i really should fix the stack of open elements to not grow downwards
  663. # [22:44] <Hixie> that's such a dumb thing
  664. # [22:46] * DELETE_MONGO_DB is now known as harry_mandingo
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  666. # [22:54] <TabAtkins> Heh.
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  673. # [23:03] <darobin> Domenic_: glad you like it :) It needs a good overhaul though. I'll probably be giving it a good scrubbing at the end of the month (notably IDL and docs)
  674. # [23:04] <Domenic_> darobin: ya docs would be the most helpful, i discovered most things i needed by looking through the source and the templates
  675. # [23:04] <darobin> ouch, sorry to hear that
  676. # [23:04] <Domenic_> darobin: so far the undocumented features i used include class="issue" and overrideCopyright
  677. # [23:04] <darobin> there's http://dev.w3.org/2009/dap/ReSpec.js/documentation.html but it's outdated
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  679. # [23:04] <darobin> I have a week cordoned off just to work on the docs
  680. # [23:05] <darobin> I'm off to bed now, but if you have suggestions feel free to file issues, I'll be happy to take them
  681. # [23:05] <Domenic_> awesome, will do!
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The end :)