/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2013-08-20 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue Aug 20 00:00:00 2013
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:01] <TabAtkins> Hixie_: Btw, the HTML spec can probably be revised to at least point at Cascade and Selectors for their parts of the definitions of scoped styles, at least until we write the Scoped Styles spec that'll be a clearinghouse for this thing.
  4. # [00:02] <TabAtkins> JonathanNeal: Easily. Start with a promise for a filesystem entry. When you get it, fire off an XHR based on what you found, in the first then. The second then gets the result of the XHR.
  5. # [00:03] <JonathanNeal> How can I attach the .resolve in the first then to fire the second?
  6. # [00:03] <JonathanNeal> in the first .then
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  8. # [00:05] <TabAtkins> You just return the XHR's promise.
  9. # [00:05] <TabAtkins> The .then() function automatically assimilates the return value of your callback.
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  12. # [00:10] <JonathanNeal> .then(function () { var promise = new Promise( /* xhr stuff with a resolve */); return promise; } ?
  13. # [00:10] <JonathanNeal> Followed by ).then(/* etc */)
  14. # [00:11] <TabAtkins> yes
  15. # [00:11] <TabAtkins> Or, more likely:
  16. # [00:11] <TabAtkins> .then(function() { return XHRFetch(...); })
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  18. # [00:12] <TabAtkins> You shouldn't be creating promises manually unless you're doing something special that needs to be asynchronous. Most usage will be implicit, using promises returned by the dom or generated by .then() calls.
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  23. # [00:25] <JonathanNeal> Can .resolve() take multiple arguments .e.g .resolve(5, 10), or should it only accept one?
  24. # [00:25] <TabAtkins> No, it only takes one - the value the promise will resolve to.
  25. # [00:26] <JonathanNeal> Nifty. I look forward to this being in a browser.
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  27. # [00:27] <TabAtkins> I think they're in nightly firefoxes, and soon to show up in chrome canary.
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  34. # Session Close: Tue Aug 20 00:45:54 2013
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  36. # Session Start: Tue Aug 20 00:45:54 2013
  37. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  41. # [00:47] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ & http://logbot.glob.com.au/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
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  64. # [01:25] <zewt> "file api v2"? sigh
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  77. # [02:06] <gsnedders> jgraham: Can you touch <https://github.com/html5lib/html5lib-python/issues/85> yet? :P
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  79. # [02:06] <gsnedders> jgraham: Or still too busy with this whole new-country thing?
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  83. # [02:15] <zewt> wanted: firefox plugin to keep pages from being able to break password autocomplete
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  97. # [02:55] <Domenic_> zewt: I use LastPass for that.
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  99. # [02:59] <MikeSmith> IE supports IDNA2008 + TR46? http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2013Aug/0083.html
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  107. # [03:16] <JonathanNeal> Does a rejection in a promise's .then() impact the next chained promise's .then()?
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  111. # [03:33] <Domenic_> JonathanNeal: it is not entirely clear what you're asking, but I believe the answer is yes.
  112. # [03:34] <Domenic_> JonathanNeal: you can test all this behavior with any existing Promises/A+ library, by the way.
  113. # [03:34] <Domenic_> JonathanNeal: https://github.com/promises-aplus/promises-spec/blob/master/implementations.md
  114. # [03:35] <MikeSmith> kochi1: IME API is listed under http://www.w3.org/TR/#tr_Javascript_APIs
  115. # [03:36] <kochi1> MikeSmith: aha, Okay! I coundn't find it...
  116. # [03:37] <MikeSmith> yeah the usability of that page is not so great
  117. # [03:38] <kochi1> yeah, someone has to implement incremental search on the page!
  118. # [03:39] <kochi1> btw, "IME" matches many substrings like "Time" "Primer" "Multimedia" and so on
  119. # [03:39] <kochi1> we should choose more outstanding spec name :)
  120. # [03:40] <MikeSmith> ah yeah
  121. # [03:40] <kochi1> 0000IME API
  122. # [03:40] <MikeSmith> heh
  123. # [03:42] <kochi1> seriously, someone may argue "IME" is a microsoft term, and more generally it could be "input method" or "text input"
  124. # [03:42] <kochi1> e.g. OSX has a class NSTextInputClient
  125. # [03:43] <kochi1> MikeSmith: what is the moderation style in the meeting next week?
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  127. # [03:46] <MikeSmith> kochi1: relatively informal
  128. # [03:46] <MikeSmith> I got your e-mail message
  129. # [03:46] <MikeSmith> you don't really need to be concerned much about the format
  130. # [03:47] <MikeSmith> 15 minutes is a pretty short time
  131. # [03:47] <kochi1> MikeSmith: ok, thanks. I'll prepare some 10-minute material and take some time for questions.
  132. # [03:47] <MikeSmith> I think it's sufficient to first just explain what problems we are trying to solve with the IM API
  133. # [03:47] <MikeSmith> kochi1: yup
  134. # [03:49] <kochi1> MikeSmith: agreed, thanks for the suggestion.
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  265. # [11:12] <jgraham> TabAtkins: You know promises would make more sense if a) flatMap wasn't a silly word and b) flatMap wasn't the thing that doesn't flatten
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  267. # [11:12] <jgraham> gsnedders: I'm not sure why you think that error messages shouldn't, in principle, be localisable
  268. # [11:13] <jgraham> But I also think that no one has ever shown any inclination to use the feature
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  285. # [11:34] <jgraham> Hmm, I think if I am considering using metaclasses to solve a problem, I might be overengineering things
  286. # [11:34] <Ms2ger> https://twitter.com/davidbaron/status/369610549799026688
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  298. # [12:33] <annevk> Hmm, promises, IDNA, or encodings
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  301. # [12:40] <Ms2ger> annevk, I assume you saw the rust encoding issue?
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  304. # [12:43] <annevk> Ms2ger, no
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  306. # [12:44] <annevk> Ms2ger: pointer?
  307. # [12:44] <Ms2ger> https://github.com/lifthrasiir/rust-encoding/issues/3
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  309. # [12:49] <annevk> Ms2ger: doesn't really look like a Rust issue
  310. # [12:50] <Ms2ger> Yeah, more like "implementation issue", I guess
  311. # [12:50] <annevk> Ms2ger: although maybe we should change the way encoder and decoder errors are written in the specification. At least this implementation seems suboptimal...
  312. # [12:50] <annevk> Ms2ger: "spec is hard"
  313. # [12:50] <annevk> lets do something simpler that comes close
  314. # [12:50] <Ms2ger> Encoding are hard, let's go shopping
  315. # [12:52] <annevk> I should actually do that one of these days. At least get a bicycle...
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  325. # [13:32] <zcorpan> jgraham: is there something wrong here? critic has fewer commits looks like. https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/262 https://critic.hoppipolla.co.uk/r/238
  326. # [13:40] <jgraham> zcorpan: It looks like it stopped tracking because the author did some kind of merge/rebase that critic didn't like
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  328. # [13:41] <jgraham> In theory it should be possible to recover from this, but it seems to be broken. I don't know if it's a fixed bug, or an unknown bug, or something else
  329. # [13:41] <jgraham> Maybe I should try upgrading
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  341. # [14:02] <zcorpan> jgraham: ouch :-/ i'll leave it to you and belem to sort out
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  361. # [14:35] <annevk> I need someone to proofread my emails... Especially when replying to people who made up this internet thing. http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2013Aug/0085.html :/
  362. # [14:37] <GPHemsley> TabAtkins: I was merely investigating what would have been a cool hypothesis if you had been left-handed. But if you're right-handed, it's far from being cool.
  363. # [14:37] <GPHemsley> TabAtkins: Nothing sinister, I promise.
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  366. # [14:41] <annevk> http://people.mozilla.com/~roc/animated-SVG-glyphs.webm hah
  367. # [14:41] <annevk> jgraham: ^^
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  369. # [14:45] <jgraham> annevk: I hate you
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  371. # [14:46] <annevk> jgraham: don't shoot the messenger, man
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  373. # [14:46] <Lachy> jgraham, why? what's not to like about animated glyphs?
  374. # [14:47] <wilhelm> What is this I don't even.
  375. # [14:47] <Lachy> I can't wait for someone to make an animated, wiggly version of Comic Sans. That'd be awesome.
  376. # [14:49] <SimonSapin> animated glyphs seem like such a terrible idea
  377. # [14:49] <jgraham> annevk: roc is too far away to shoot
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  381. # [14:58] <annevk> Animated glyphs seem great. I hope we can soon create glyphs that mask videos...
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  383. # [14:58] <jgraham> annevk: Now you can't use your "only the messanger" defence
  384. # [14:59] <annevk> jgraham: as long as you keep staring at your screen I think I'm safe
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  387. # [15:06] <GPHemsley> Ms2ger: " Do you have a FfOS Mobile Device? "
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  395. # [15:22] <Ms2ger> GPHemsley, "No"
  396. # [15:22] <GPHemsley> Ms2ger: Note it says FfOS, not FxOS
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  400. # [15:25] <SimonSapin> annevk: "iso-8859-8 and iso-8859-8-i are distinct encoding names, because iso-8859-8 has influence on the layout direction." What does this mean?
  401. # [15:26] <annevk> SimonSapin: what do you think it means?
  402. # [15:27] <SimonSapin> Is this about CSS writing modes? I think there should be a link there
  403. # [15:28] <SimonSapin> or is it in HTML?
  404. # [15:29] <annevk> Once someone has defined it I might add a link I guess
  405. # [15:29] <annevk> There's a bug somewhere
  406. # [15:29] <annevk> It's mentioned in the source: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=19505
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  408. # [15:31] <SimonSapin> annevk: I think it’s bad to have valuable info hidden in HTML comments. <p class=note> or <p class=issue> would be better
  409. # [15:32] <annevk> Yeah, nowadays I usually do that
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  433. # [16:05] <gsnedders> jgraham: I'd argue they're developer-facing messages, which others often don't localize.
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  436. # [16:09] <jgraham> gsnedders: What kind of developers?
  437. # [16:10] <jgraham> gsnedders: If, for example, you wanted to write a python-based validator with html5lib as the parser layer, you might well want to localise these messages
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  452. # [16:28] <gsnedders> jgraham: Does any validator do this or have any intension of every doing this?
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  455. # [16:28] <jgraham> Localised error messages or use html5lib?
  456. # [16:29] <gsnedders> The former.
  457. # [16:30] <jgraham> http://www.w3.org/wiki/CssValidator/Localization
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  459. # [16:42] <annevk> Hixie_: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=22496#c11
  460. # [16:42] <annevk> Hixie_: and you were right, my bad :/
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  466. # [17:01] <annevk> Hixie_: might also want to review https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=21976#c6 as it seems the single host concept might be obsolete soon
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  469. # [17:03] <MikeSmith> win 27
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  472. # [17:08] <annevk> I wonder to what extent people have reviewed this HTML imports stuff...
  473. # [17:09] <annevk> Seems https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webcomponents/raw-file/tip/spec/imports/index.html should just be folded into HTML
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  478. # [17:14] <Domenic_> what is the use case of html imports again? :-/
  479. # [17:16] <annevk> External templates, afaict
  480. # [17:16] <Domenic_> hmm. most people seem to do that via require('./myTemplate.html') at least in my circles.
  481. # [17:16] <annevk> Domenic_: it seems return in then()'s callbacks doesn't need to do anything either and can just call resolve()
  482. # [17:17] <Domenic_> annevk: yup. step 7 at https://github.com/promises-aplus/promises-spec#the-then-method
  483. # [17:17] <annevk> Domenic_: at which point the question is what kind of checks then() does
  484. # [17:17] <Domenic_> annevk: resolve(), you mean?
  485. # [17:18] <annevk> Domenic_: I thought we were going to spec the model where then() does unwrapping
  486. # [17:18] <Domenic_> annevk: yes, so what exactly resolve() does is different in that model, but the fact that return <-> resolve (and throw <-> reject) stays the same
  487. # [17:19] <annevk> Domenic_: afaict in that model resolve() just sets promise's value
  488. # [17:20] <Domenic_> annevk: oh I see, yeah you're right, it's then()s initial behavior that becomes the new question.
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  491. # [17:24] <annevk> this model seems kinda weird, in that the promise has a value that's a promise... and then if you do .then() it needs to be chained all the way through
  492. # [17:25] <Domenic_> well, it's not the promise's value, it's the promise's resolution... but yes, the fact that value/reason/state are all now emergent makes it a bit trippy.
  493. # [17:25] <Domenic_> Mark and I are planning to nail down an exact algorithm later tonight-ish. The plan is to leave what "isPromiseLike" means exactly unspecified for now, to be argued about after we have a solid algorithm in place. Like http://esdiscuss.org/topic/promises-consensus-with-a-terminology but with more detail.
  494. # [17:28] <annevk> thanks
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  506. # [17:47] <annevk> TabAtkins: I referenced the "earlier X" quite explicitly
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  553. # [18:50] <JonathanNeal> Promises, Promises.
  554. # [18:50] <Ms2ger> Futures.
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  556. # [18:51] <JonathanNeal> Is futures a more accurate term, just less aesthetic to me?
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  563. # [19:02] <Domenic_> it is what some other languages use
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  565. # [19:02] <Domenic_> mostly i hear java people using it
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  597. # [19:27] <Hixie_> hsivonen: re https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=12400 - what do you think is wrong in the specs, exactly?
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  603. # [19:36] <Hixie_> i'm amused that all the people who wanted their changes done to the whatwg html spec 5+ years ago, like having cite allow people's names, having blockquote ambiguously allow citations to be inlined, etc, are now just asking the htmlwg to make the changes instead
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  610. # [19:54] <zcorpan> TabAtkins: pls see https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=22500
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  619. # [20:17] <Hixie_> if you want a constructor that takes arguments and does something special to them, and you have several of these, is NamedConstructor the preferred solution or are factory methods preferred?
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  621. # [20:18] <Hixie_> e.g. something like (but obviously not actually this): new IntegerByAddition(1,2,3) => an Integer representing 6; new IntegerByConcatenation(1,2,3) => an Integer representing 123
  622. # [20:18] <Hixie_> vs createIntegerByAddition(1,2,3) and createIntegerByConcatenation(1,2,3)
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  627. # [20:22] <jsbell> I can think of examples of the latter, but not the former, assuming the resulting objects are indistinguishable
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  630. # [20:27] <jsbell> FWIW, I only find two NamedConstructor examples in blink's IDLs, and they are one per interface (Option for HTMLOptionElement and Audio for HTMLAudioElement), not even multiple per interface let alone different names
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  632. # [20:27] <Hixie_> there should also be one for Image
  633. # [20:27] <Hixie_> which has three
  634. # [20:27] <Hixie_> but they're all just Image
  635. # [20:28] <Hixie_> certainly right now i'm not aware of anyone doing the named constructor thing
  636. # [20:28] <Hixie_> but people hate factory methods
  637. # [20:28] <Hixie_> so i don't know which is preferred
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  639. # [20:31] <jsbell> Yeah, looks like Blink's HTMLImageElement constructor has custom code rather than being expressed through IDL; may be crufty code that can be updated, dunno. (And why not Video, for symmetry?)
  640. # [20:34] <jsbell> The third alternative is new Integer({add: [1, 2, 3]}) vs. new Integer({concat: [1,2,3]}). With argument destructuring that might be considered more ES6-ish
  641. # [20:37] <jsbell> i.e. as an implementer in ES6 you can write |let {add, concat} = options;| and decide what to do from there; supposedly that will be the new hotness; since they're exclusive it's icky, though
  642. # [20:46] <annevk> Hixie_: Integer.create(...) is what ES uses these days
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  649. # [20:49] <TabAtkins> jgraham: flatMap *does* flatten. It flattens *once* - when you return a promise from the callback, rather than making a promise for a promise, it flattens it.
  650. # [20:49] <TabAtkins> jgraham: The name comes from the fact that it's identical to a .map() method, except it adds the flattening at the end.
  651. # [20:50] <TabAtkins> jgraham: I think it's from Scala, and it's at least better than .bind() (or >>=).
  652. # [20:51] <TabAtkins> annevk: What do you mean by "Integer.create() is what ES uses"?
  653. # [20:52] <TabAtkins> Oh, didn't see the context. You meant when there are multiple constructors.
  654. # [20:52] <hsivonen> Hixie_: maybe there isn't anything wrong with the specs. Basically, if browsers don't support marking up combining marks separately, it should be an authoring error to do so
  655. # [20:52] <hsivonen> Hixie_: requiring each text node to be in NFC takes care of this, AFAICT
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  670. # [21:20] <annevk> hsivonen: roc at one point touted this as a feature
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  732. # Session Close: Wed Aug 21 00:00:00 2013

The end :)