/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2013-08-28 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Aug 28 00:00:00 2013
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  22. # [00:20] <TabAtkins> Hixie_: How do you match the urls in your needs='' attribute? Split on spaces, fully resolve, then compare url-wise?
  23. # [00:21] <TabAtkins> Ah, I see, yes, that's exactly it.
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  34. # [00:35] <Hixie_> TabAtkins: yeah
  35. # [00:36] <Hixie_> i realised after posting that i should also fire an event if the script doesn't run
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  40. # [00:45] <heycam> zcorpan, I think 'double screenX = 0;' is not bogus, due to the "The type of an integer token is the same as the type of the constant, dictionary member or optional argument it is being used as the value of." sentence
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  83. # [02:24] <MikeSmith> oh man the whole Tracking Protection dark comedy just got even more tragic/comic
  84. # [02:26] <MikeSmith> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-tracking/2013Aug/0024.html
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  86. # [02:27] <miketaylr> oh vey
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  90. # [02:27] <MikeSmith> Peter Swire stepping down as co-chair in order to join the "Review Group on Intelligence and Communications Technology" thing that President Obama set up to whitewash all the legal violations he and the NSA have been doing
  91. # [02:28] <miketaylr> [insert THANKS OBAMA meme here]
  92. # [02:28] <MikeSmith> heh
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  102. # [02:55] <jamesr__> very preliminary data suggests that accesses to "document.charset" are really common
  103. # [02:55] <jamesr__> i think some common JS is trying to sniff IE by bool-checking that
  104. # [02:55] <jamesr__> which is sad since webkit/blink have also exposed it forever
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  156. # [05:37] <zewt> var ie = (Math.random() < 0.5) // web-compat this, mo-fos
  157. # [05:38] <miketaylr> D:
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  160. # [05:49] <rsc33> why on linux chromium when I type <aa in the html it dispalys as text on the web page but on windows on chrome it doesn't display, in a fact it deletes whole row of text?
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  214. # [08:59] <zcorpan> jamesr__: that seems like an argument to drop it from webkit/blink
  215. # [09:00] <zcorpan> unless they have that code path mean "IE and WebKit" i guess
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  226. # [09:26] <zcorpan> Hixie_: looks like you didn't finish this sentence:
  227. # [09:26] <zcorpan> If
  228. # [09:26] <zcorpan> decDependencies() is called and it reduces the number to zero,
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  242. # [10:14] <zcorpan> does anyone know if IE supports alternative stylesheets? (JS or UI or both?)
  243. # [10:15] <zcorpan> what's the log output of http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/2497
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  247. # [10:24] <zcorpan> heycam|away: TabAtkins: The CSSOM spec is probably wrong when it comes to how to deal with variables.
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  253. # [10:35] <Ms2ger> Maybe not only there ;)
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  272. # [11:29] <Ms2ger> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/the-video-element.html#dom-texttrack-mode
  273. # [11:29] <Ms2ger> Isn't the first dl there backwards?
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  277. # [11:37] <zcorpan> Ms2ger: backwards as in the text in dt should be in dd instead?
  278. # [11:37] <Ms2ger> Yeah
  279. # [11:38] <zcorpan> i guess
  280. # [11:41] * Ms2ger takes some paper to interpret the ORA
  281. # [11:49] <Ms2ger> In step 12.3 at http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/WebIDL/#dfn-overload-resolution-algorithm, is the definition of V missing?
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  283. # [11:54] <SimonSapin> hsivonen: I don’t understand https://twitter.com/hsivonen/status/372656748928053249 , what’s a fallback encoding in this case?
  284. # [11:55] <hsivonen> SimonSapin: the encoding that's used for HTML if there's no declared encoding and nothing to inherit
  285. # [11:55] <SimonSapin> hsivonen: that’s based on the user’s locale?
  286. # [11:55] <hsivonen> SimonSapin: yes (unfortunately!)
  287. # [11:55] <SimonSapin> ew
  288. # [11:56] <hsivonen> indeed
  289. # [11:56] <SimonSapin> I’m gonna pretend I don’t know about this for now.
  290. # [11:57] <Ms2ger> Fun, isn't it
  291. # [11:57] <SimonSapin> for some values of "fun"
  292. # [11:57] <zcorpan> looks like Default-Style <meta> is a working way to switch stylesheet sets in Blink in JS
  293. # [11:58] <Ms2ger> zcorpan, review comments! ;)
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  295. # [11:59] <jgraham> hsivonen: I would be concerned about the small sample size there
  296. # [11:59] <zcorpan> Ms2ger: hmm?
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  298. # [12:00] <Ms2ger> https://critic.hoppipolla.co.uk/r/74
  299. # [12:00] <zcorpan> Ms2ger: nice!
  300. # [12:00] <hsivonen> jgraham: why when the Esperanto result confirms expectations?
  301. # [12:01] <SimonSapin> what’s the sample size, by the way?
  302. # [12:01] <SimonSapin> maybe in absolute number of sessions
  303. # [12:02] <hsivonen> SimonSapin: varies by locale but, IIRC, > 600 for Esperanto
  304. # [12:02] <jgraham> hsivonen: I'm not saying I don't believe the results. But that's only because it confirms my bias, not because I know that the data is trustworthy
  305. # [12:03] <hsivonen> and yes, even pure 100% vs. 0% results were possible with thousands of datapoints, e.g. Finnish Fennec
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  349. # [13:43] <john____> hi
  350. # [13:45] <john____> all alone?
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  352. # [13:46] <john____> He "Finnish"
  353. # [13:48] <john____> OK, will just put a question and see if anyone bites
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  355. # [13:48] <john____> Have added specs for meta names for a search script
  356. # [13:49] <john____> there are comment tags that have errors in w3.validator
  357. # [13:49] <john____> Element name fdse:robots cannot be represented as XML 1.0. <FDSE:ROBOTS value="none">
  358. # [13:50] <john____> Any ideas how to fix this?
  359. # [13:50] <john____> The tag goes within html not in the header
  360. # [13:51] <john____> Nice it lets you madk off areas of text so the search scrip only sees the code you want
  361. # [13:51] <john____> like <nav></nav> could work
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  363. # [13:52] <john____> mask off areas
  364. # [13:54] <john____> - sulk -
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  366. # [13:55] <john____> OK, have emailed Hixie_
  367. # [13:55] <john____> see yah grizzly dudes
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  369. # [13:57] <Ms2ger> Bye.
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  380. # [14:22] <annevk> fifteen minutes for a reply? wow
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  410. # [15:35] <Ms2ger> new Blob(new String("abc"))
  411. # [15:35] <annevk> Aight, zip archive stuff: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-whatwg-archive/2013Aug/0278.html
  412. # [15:35] <Ms2ger> What should that do?
  413. # [15:35] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@94.234.170.164) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  414. # [15:35] <annevk> Ms2ger: I'd expect a blob consisting of three bytes
  415. # [15:36] <Ms2ger> But the first argument to the constructor is a sequence
  416. # [15:36] <annevk> oh my god
  417. # [15:36] <annevk> who designed that?!
  418. # [15:37] * annevk sheds a tear
  419. # [15:37] <zcorpan_> changing style sheet set with Default-Style in webkit doesn't seem to add the new stylesheet to document.styleSheets. and the old stylesheet's cssRules gets emptied.
  420. # [15:37] <zcorpan_> or blink is what i'm testing, but i guess it's the same
  421. # [15:37] <gsnedders> Ms2ger: You're using a string object, you're doing it wrong.
  422. # [15:37] <annevk> If we remove alternate style sheets, default-style can go too
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  424. # [15:38] <Ms2ger> gsnedders, no, I explicitly want to test a String object
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  428. # [15:42] <freddyb> I just read the zip proposal email. very interesting :)
  429. # [15:43] <freddyb> I found it worthwhile mentioning that something similar to the sub-scheme example already works in firefox jar:http://html5sec.org/test.jar!/test.html
  430. # [15:44] <freddyb> (jar files are zips, considering that manifest files are optional)
  431. # [15:44] <gsnedders> Why is the state of MTP on Linux so bad the easiest way to copy stuff to my tablet is over wifi, slowly?
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  435. # [15:47] <freddyb> I'm a bit worried about all three approaches for the zip idea..the first would introduce just another URL scheme for with deriving an origin could be harder than it seems
  436. # [15:47] <annevk> freddyb: yeah I know, although I haven't played with them recently
  437. # [15:48] <annevk> freddyb: so, if we put it on the URL object as sub-scheme, the origin would still be computed in the same way
  438. # [15:48] <annevk> freddyb: but sub-scheme seems really icky
  439. # [15:48] <freddyb> I find them all icky :P
  440. # [15:49] <annevk> I like fragments. But they're kinda incompatible with supporting them in <iframe> and such.
  441. # [15:49] <freddyb> the media fragment looks so capable of being misunderstood
  442. # [15:49] <annevk> And might require a bunch more infrastructure changes than changing the URL parser as sicking pointed out repeatedly to me.
  443. # [15:49] <SimonSapin> annevk: Firefox supports view-source: in <iframe>
  444. # [15:50] <freddyb> because it suddenly has a completely different meaning depending on the resource being returned (espeically without a file name extension), where one program might think it's a portion of an HTML document and others agree it's a file within a zip
  445. # [15:50] <annevk> Fragments are however the only way of using URLs as designed
  446. # [15:50] <annevk> SimonSapin: yeah we should nuke that
  447. # [15:50] <freddyb> yeah, I really hope the view-source/iframe thing gets nuked. there's already a bug: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=624883
  448. # [15:50] <freddyb> annevk: that's true! but it is really ambigous, isnt it?
  449. # [15:52] <SimonSapin> annevk: zip-relative URLs that start with '%!'. Is this a bad idea?
  450. # [15:52] <freddyb> :)
  451. # [15:53] <freddyb> why not use a character that doesnt have a meaning yet? like $ ;)
  452. # [15:53] <annevk> SimonSapin: you'd have to elaborate
  453. # [15:54] <annevk> freddyb: $ is used in URLs on the web
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  456. # [15:55] <freddyb> really? I didn't know. but let's not bikeshed on this. a different character would make more sense to me.
  457. # [15:55] <SimonSapin> annevk: do you think it is a good or bad idea to support <img src="%!foo.png"> which is zip-relative just like <img src="/foo.png"> is host-relative.
  458. # [15:55] <annevk> SimonSapin: I don't think any relative URLs should be able to get out of the zip
  459. # [15:57] <SimonSapin> why not? But this is not the case here: src="%!foo.png" only makes sense if the base URL is in a zip as well, eg. http://example.net/zip%!a/b/c.html
  460. # [15:57] <annevk> We could make it %/ I suppose.
  461. # [15:58] <annevk> SimonSapin: if the idea is that it's a self-contained package, being able to refer to other files on the same server using a relative URL seems very strange
  462. # [15:58] <annevk> SimonSapin: and more likely an error
  463. # [15:58] <annevk> SimonSapin: or worse, exploit
  464. # [15:59] <GPHemsley> Was a question-mark-prefixed character combo already considered and rejected?
  465. # [16:01] <annevk> GPHemsley: question-mark is already used...
  466. # [16:01] <GPHemsley> annevk: So is percent-sign...
  467. # [16:01] <annevk> GPHemsley: did you read my email?
  468. # [16:02] <GPHemsley> Yes
  469. # [16:02] <annevk> It points out why percent-sign in this way works.
  470. # [16:02] <GPHemsley> Yes, but that wasn't my question
  471. # [16:02] <annevk> So you want %? ?
  472. # [16:02] <GPHemsley> I was thinking something more like ?/
  473. # [16:03] <GPHemsley> but that's why I'm asking
  474. # [16:03] <annevk> That works today in all user agents...
  475. # [16:03] <annevk> % doesn't as I pointed out...
  476. # [16:03] * Joins: hasather (~hasather@cm-84.210.170.16.getinternet.no)
  477. # [16:03] <GPHemsley> so it's a necessity that the URL not work in any current UA?
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  481. # [16:07] <hsivonen> annevk: %! looks less scary to me than using #
  482. # [16:09] <GPHemsley> annevk: What happens if your zip file is created using page.php?file=test.zip ?
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  485. # [16:11] <annevk> GPHemsley: ? is part of the normal path so that would work
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  488. # [16:12] <SimonSapin> annevk: isn’t it the query string?
  489. # [16:12] <annevk> SimonSapin: query string is part of the path
  490. # [16:12] * Joins: enr (~enr@static-88.131.87.100.addr.tdcsong.se)
  491. # [16:12] <GPHemsley> annevk: url_test.php?file=test.zip&spacer=1%!example.png wouldn't work
  492. # [16:12] <annevk> SimonSapin: in the HTTP sense
  493. # [16:12] <GPHemsley> at least, not as currently parsed by PHP
  494. # [16:12] <annevk> GPHemsley: why not?
  495. # [16:13] <SimonSapin> but in the URL model sense?
  496. # [16:13] <annevk> GPHemsley: you realize %!image.png would not go to the server right
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  499. # [16:13] <GPHemsley> because it sets $_GET['spacer'] = 1%!example.png
  500. # [16:13] * Joins: enr_ (~enr@static-88.131.87.100.addr.tdcsong.se)
  501. # [16:13] <SimonSapin> annevk: I think you need to clarify that
  502. # [16:13] <annevk> SimonSapin: that's at the end of the email?
  503. # [16:13] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@c-5eeaaa55-74736162.cust.telenor.se)
  504. # [16:14] <GPHemsley> annevk: The %! part currently does get sent to the server, and would in any legacy URL parser, I think.
  505. # [16:14] <annevk> GPHemsley: sure
  506. # [16:14] <annevk> GPHemsley: actually, legacy parsers ought to reject that
  507. # [16:14] <GPHemsley> well, Gecko doesn't
  508. # [16:15] <annevk> yeah, in the query string it's a bit more tricky I suppose
  509. # [16:15] <GPHemsley> nor does Chrome
  510. # [16:15] <SimonSapin> annevk: clarify that %! works in the query string as well as in the path (in URL spec sense)
  511. # [16:15] <annevk> SimonSapin: clarify where?
  512. # [16:15] <annevk> SimonSapin: nothing of this is defined dude...
  513. # [16:15] <annevk> relax
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  515. # [16:16] <SimonSapin> yeah, I just assumed that this didn’t work but you seemed to assume that it does
  516. # [16:16] <GPHemsley> annevk: Is there a reason you can't overload # to be used multiple times?
  517. # [16:16] <GPHemsley> e.g. #page_id#/file/path.html
  518. # [16:17] <annevk> explained in the email
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  520. # [16:20] <zcorpan> which browsers treat %! as network error?
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  522. # [16:23] <annevk> zcorpan: I thought Safari and IE did
  523. # [16:23] <annevk> zcorpan: can't reproduce in Safari though
  524. # [16:24] * annevk looks in IE
  525. # [16:24] <zcorpan> ok
  526. # [16:25] * Joins: hasather (~hasather@cm-84.210.170.16.getinternet.no)
  527. # [16:25] <annevk> IE throws for .open("GET", "%") in XHR
  528. # [16:29] * Quits: hasather (~hasather@cm-84.210.170.16.getinternet.no) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
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  531. # [16:32] <annevk> "but adding complexity doesn't" goes on to advocate for the most complex of three variants
  532. # [16:33] * Joins: svl (~me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl)
  533. # [16:33] <GPHemsley> annevk: I've responded to your e-mail. Let me know what you think of my idea. (Caveat: I haven't actually read the media fragments spec to see if it's compatible with my idea.)
  534. # [16:34] <annevk> I'm pretty sure media fragments are out
  535. # [16:34] <annevk> or fragments in general
  536. # [16:37] * Quits: mven (~mven@ip68-224-15-53.lv.lv.cox.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  537. # [16:37] <SimonSapin> GPHemsley: what would #! be standardized to?
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  544. # [17:01] <jgraham> GPHemsley: Since there is nothing that depends on this feature so far it seems possible to make it come before the query part. I guess that's kind of ugly though
  545. # [17:02] <jgraham> (i.e. http://example.com/foo.php%!path/in/foo?file=test.zip
  546. # [17:02] <jgraham> )
  547. # [17:02] <jgraham> (means you can't have a ? in the filename)
  548. # [17:03] <SimonSapin> jgraham: so the server would have GET /foo.php?file=test.zip ?
  549. # [17:04] <jgraham> Yeah
  550. # [17:04] <jgraham> Did I mention ugly?
  551. # [17:05] <jgraham> (also, it doesn't solve bz's concern with data: urls)
  552. # [17:05] <annevk> jgraham: if you did it that way for data URLs that'd be massively confusing :)
  553. # [17:06] <SimonSapin> jgraham: what about data: urls?
  554. # [17:07] <jgraham> Right, I think data urls might sink the whole idea?
  555. # [17:07] <SimonSapin> is it really useful to extract files from data:application/zip,… ?
  556. # [17:07] * Joins: hasather (~hasather@cm-84.210.170.16.getinternet.no)
  557. # [17:08] <annevk> jgraham: No, %! is illegal in data URLs too
  558. # [17:08] <jgraham> SimonSapin: Probably someone will want to for some reason. But it also makes things more confusing in general if there are different rules that you have to learn for different special cases
  559. # [17:08] <annevk> jgraham: Gecko's current architecture might sink it for Gecko, though...
  560. # [17:08] <jgraham> annevk: "illegal", but does it work?
  561. # [17:09] <annevk> jgraham: I suspect it wouldn't in IE, but I can't be bothered to open the VM again
  562. # [17:09] * jgraham guesses the Blink/WebKit people won't be delighted by non-string origins, but might be wrong
  563. # [17:11] <annevk> jgraham: what do you mean?
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  565. # [17:13] <gavinc> Hrm, anyone know if there was any more thought/action on http://www.w3.org/community/cssselfrags/ ?
  566. # [17:14] <GPHemsley> SimonSapin: No idea; perhaps just reserve #-prefixed combos for future use (and define #! using some vague language that corresponds to its usage now)?
  567. # [17:14] <SimonSapin> GPHemsley: given everyone is doing their own thing, I don’t now what there is to standardize
  568. # [17:14] <GPHemsley> SimonSapin: Don't they all vaguely revolve around AJAXy things?
  569. # [17:15] <GPHemsley> jgraham: Yeah, that is ugly, in that it doesn't make logical hierarchical sense.
  570. # [17:15] <SimonSapin> yes, vaguely
  571. # [17:16] <GPHemsley> SimonSapin: So that might be enough. #-prefix is reserved, #! is AJAKy stuff, #/ is subpath stuff
  572. # [17:16] <GPHemsley> then you have an extension vector beyond ZIP
  573. # [17:16] <GPHemsley> for packages
  574. # [17:17] <jgraham> GPHemsley: Fortunately URLs don't make logical hierachical sense, so that's not a problem
  575. # [17:17] <SimonSapin> #foo is already used for anchors
  576. # [17:17] <GPHemsley> jgraham: They don't? (Other than domain vs. path direction)
  577. # [17:17] <jgraham> …
  578. # [17:17] <jgraham> Well other than the cases they don't, they do, sure.
  579. # [17:18] <GPHemsley> well besides that one (which IMO is fairly simple), what others are there?
  580. # [17:18] * Joins: baku (~baku@2-236-39-253.ip231.fastwebnet.it)
  581. # [17:20] <GPHemsley> jgraham: ^
  582. # [17:20] <zewt> GPHemsley: i regularly use #arbitrary-junk
  583. # [17:21] <GPHemsley> zewt: As in, a non-existent anchor?
  584. # [17:21] <zewt> yes
  585. # [17:22] <zewt> eg. http://foo.com/app?server=query#client/path?client=query
  586. # [17:22] <GPHemsley> oh
  587. # [17:22] <GPHemsley> hmm
  588. # [17:23] <GPHemsley> my guess is that's frowned upon
  589. # [17:23] <GPHemsley> but what do I know
  590. # [17:23] <SimonSapin> is it?
  591. # [17:23] <zewt> *shrug* nothing wrong with it
  592. # [17:24] <zewt> for that matter, gmail does it
  593. # [17:24] <zewt> (just happened to glance over at my gmail window, heh)
  594. # [17:24] <zewt> anyway, just saying it's too late to try to "reserve" #stuff
  595. # [17:24] <GPHemsley> ah, so they do
  596. # [17:25] <GPHemsley> well, that's why this spec might be useful :P
  597. # [17:25] <GPHemsley> standardize on a single one
  598. # [17:25] <GPHemsley> although I suppose Gmail's usage isn't strictly bad
  599. # [17:25] <GPHemsley> since it can be considered an ID
  600. # [17:26] <zewt> well, any path might be considered an ID
  601. # [17:26] <GPHemsley> perhaps
  602. # [17:26] <GPHemsley> but they seem to be #<mailbox>/<hash>
  603. # [17:26] <zewt> settings uses things like "#settings/general"
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  606. # [17:27] <GPHemsley> fine, #<page>[/<hash>]?
  607. # [17:28] * Joins: enr (~enr@static-88.131.87.100.addr.tdcsong.se)
  608. # [17:28] <zewt> it's just a magic-client-encoded-thing-that-looks-like-a-path, i don't know all the cases they use of course
  609. # [17:28] <GPHemsley> the beauty of having a reserved #/ for a path is that you can define how to parse it
  610. # [17:29] <GPHemsley> and then suddenly everyone can use it interoperably
  611. # [17:29] <zewt> there's "#label/label name/thread id" if you're viewing a thread while in a label view
  612. # [17:29] * Joins: hasather (~hasather@cm-84.210.170.16.getinternet.no)
  613. # [17:29] <zewt> you can treat #foo as a path and parse it, with or without a leading /
  614. # [17:30] <zewt> (as long as it won't explode violently if people put weirdo things in there)
  615. # [17:30] <GPHemsley> yes, you can
  616. # [17:30] <GPHemsley> the prefix would indicate that it is definitely a path, though
  617. # [17:30] <GPHemsley> as opposed to just an opaque ID
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  619. # [17:31] <zewt> well, "most likely a path"
  620. # [17:31] <zewt> but i mean, you can expose an API that says "return data from the start of the fragment to the first ?", which would give any path-like part of the fragment, and if you're not using the fragment like that, you just don't use that function
  621. # [17:32] <GPHemsley> sure
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  626. # [17:48] <annevk> You don't need to be confident as fragments for zip archives have no meaning. However, fragments for zip archives don't work because of relative URLs.
  627. # [17:49] <annevk> I'd personally be fine with not supporting that case, but other people aren't.
  628. # [17:50] <SimonSapin> why wouldn’t it work to special-case relative URLs in zip?
  629. # [17:50] <zewt> i don't follow--none of the proposals would work for relative urls without extra work
  630. # [17:51] <zewt> personally I suspect supporting zips for navigation is a massively bad idea...
  631. # [17:52] <jgraham> People seem to want to package up whole apps/bundles of resources in a single HTTP request
  632. # [17:52] <zewt> doesn't seem to justify the complexity
  633. # [17:52] * Quits: annevk (~annevk@207.218.72.65) (Remote host closed the connection)
  634. # [17:52] <jgraham> This use case keeps coming up
  635. # [17:52] <zewt> as hixie would say, that's not a use case
  636. # [17:53] <jgraham> Well sure. I'm the wrong person to defend this
  637. # [17:53] <zewt> the only use case i can see is "distribute a website as a single file that can be loaded directly"
  638. # [17:53] <jgraham> But I think there are actual use cases being mentioned
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  641. # [17:56] <annevk> zewt: e.g. a game you want to distribute to a bunch of sites in an <iframe>, or probably more common, an ad
  642. # [17:57] <annevk> zewt: people use Flash for it today, because of the convenient container format
  643. # [17:57] <zewt> i don't see why that needs to be bundled in one file
  644. # [17:58] <jgraham> I'm not sure what a use case that *required* everything to be bundled in a single file would look like. But doing so can have advaantages e.g. fewer round trips to load, easier to embed, etc.
  645. # [17:58] * Joins: enr (~enr@static-88.131.87.100.addr.tdcsong.se)
  646. # [17:59] <annevk> That's how existing infrastructure deals with these things. Everything can be changed of course, but that's the XHTML2 approach. Re-architect the things you have and you'll be fine.
  647. # [17:59] <zewt> bundling resources to reduce fetches is one thing (when you have 100 16x16 icons), but that doesn't argue for reducing to *1* fetch
  648. # [18:00] <zewt> so the web should optimize for infrastructure built specifically for Flash? uh okay
  649. # [18:00] <jgraham> Hmm?
  650. # [18:00] <jgraham> It's not infrastructure built for flash
  651. # [18:01] <jgraham> The flash example is "people are working around the lack of this today by using a non-web technology"
  652. # [18:01] <zewt> then what are we talking about? clearly not infrastructure built for the web, since we're talking about something the web can't do
  653. # [18:01] <jgraham> Flash is a non-web technology
  654. # [18:02] <jgraham> Today people bundle resources in flash files and include them on web pages as opaque blobs
  655. # [18:02] <zewt> sorry, you've lost me--I said "instrastructure for Flash", you say "not flash", I say "then what?" and you reply "flash" :)
  656. # [18:02] <jgraham> I said not infrastructure built for flash
  657. # [18:03] <jgraham> I don't even know what that is
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  661. # [18:08] <annevk> Hixie_: why does "Too many recipients to the message" require moderator approval on whatwg@whatwg.org?
  662. # [18:08] <annevk> Hixie_: that seems annoying
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  681. # [18:32] <GPHemsley> annevk: Probably a spam protection
  682. # [18:33] <GPHemsley> but it would be good if subscribers were exempt from that
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  684. # [18:36] <GPHemsley> annevk: Fragments for zip archives work even with relative URLs if you allow multiple uses of # (i.e. #/path#id)
  685. # [18:36] <GPHemsley> (and the path fragment comes before the ID fragment)
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  687. # [18:37] <annevk> GPHemsley: there's too many infrastructure changes required for fragment identifiers
  688. # [18:37] <GPHemsley> annevk: Examples?
  689. # [18:37] <annevk> GPHemsley: fragment identifier changes don't roundtrip through fetch so you'd need all kinds of special casing
  690. # [18:37] <annevk> GPHemsley: as explained in my email...
  691. # [18:38] <annevk> I should probably just have left it out as suggestion altogether...
  692. # [18:38] <GPHemsley> I've read your e-mail. So please either point me to a specific paragraph where you think you explained it already, or please answer my question directly.
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  697. # [18:45] <annevk> Dude, I just explained it
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  700. # [18:47] <GPHemsley> annevk: Special casing where?
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  702. # [18:48] <annevk> Where you specify the URL? E.g. <img>, <a>, <script>, etc.
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  706. # [18:52] <Hixie_> annevk: it's a common source of spam.
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  708. # [18:53] <annevk> zewt: the directory is at the end of zip archives
  709. # [18:53] <annevk> zewt: Eric is right
  710. # [18:54] <Hixie_> annevk: also really it usually means that you're annoying people (how often do all those people really need to be cc'ed?)
  711. # [18:54] <annevk> Hixie_: they asked
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  713. # [18:54] <Hixie_> i said "usually", not always :-)
  714. # [18:55] <annevk> hah
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  716. # [18:57] <annevk> https://twitter.com/stevelosh/status/372740571749572610 is pretty good
  717. # [18:57] <GPHemsley> annevk: Are you saying that you'd have to special-case the ZIP URL in each of the definitions for <img>, <a>, <script>, etc.?
  718. # [18:58] <annevk> GPHemsley: you'd special-case the Document as being derived from zip, and then whenever you have fragment references you need to do special handling
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  720. # [18:58] <zewt> annevk: i know they're at the end of zip archives (i've implemented zip clients like four times), you read the end of the file first
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  722. # [18:59] <annevk> zewt: you don't get the end of the file first over HTTP...
  723. # [19:00] <zewt> that's why you use range requests
  724. # [19:01] <annevk> o_O
  725. # [19:01] <zewt> ...
  726. # [19:01] <annevk> That's not at all streaming as commonly understood
  727. # [19:02] <zewt> we're not talking about streaming at all
  728. # [19:02] <annevk> Oh yes we were.
  729. # [19:02] <zewt> (this isn't a streaming feature at all)
  730. # [19:02] <zewt> no, we're not.
  731. # [19:02] <annevk> Well whatever then.
  732. # [19:02] <zewt> why are you so obnoxiously snarky lately? it's very tiresome
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  734. # [19:03] <annevk> Because Eric said "it's not a great format because it's not streamable" and you say it's not about streaming.
  735. # [19:04] * Krinkle|detached is now known as Krinkle
  736. # [19:05] <zewt> streaming is "read the start of a file and take data as it comes in"; this isn't a streaming feature at all, it's a random access feature
  737. # [19:05] <zewt> and zips support both
  738. # [19:05] <zewt> eric misused the word "streaming", and I explained in my email that what this feature wants is random access, not streaming (and how it supports both).
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  740. # [19:07] <annevk> Even random access is poor because it's at the end of the zip archive
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  742. # [19:08] <annevk> In any event, I gave up because we don't really have to agree on this
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  787. # [20:04] <TabAtkins> Do we generally dislike putting things on navigator, or are there good reasons to do so sometimes?
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  789. # [20:04] <Ms2ger> If they're todo with the navigator, I guess
  790. # [20:05] <TabAtkins> "network service discovery"?
  791. # [20:05] <Ms2ger> Doesn't sound like it
  792. # [20:06] <TabAtkins> "To enable Web pages to connect and communicate with Local-networked Services provided over HTTP..."
  793. # [20:08] <Domenic_> what is a navigator anyway
  794. # [20:08] <Domenic_> does it navigate the netscape?
  795. # [20:08] <TabAtkins> The thing that navigates.
  796. # [20:08] <TabAtkins> Yes.
  797. # [20:08] <TabAtkins> It's the salty sea-captain of your browser.
  798. # [20:08] <Hixie_> i'd put things on navigator if they're abotu the browser specifically
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  803. # [20:14] <wycats> Hixie_: I'm around finally
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  805. # [20:15] <wycats> the tl;dr is that modules aren't part of <script>s; they're separate files that are loaded through the loader
  806. # [20:16] <wycats> there are several approaches we're considering for bundling... zip URLs are one of them, and annevk is helping with that
  807. # [20:16] <wycats> but modules are always name->exports
  808. # [20:17] <wycats> when you import { something } from "name", the Loader goes through a bunch of user/browser specified hooks that end up with a fetched source
  809. # [20:17] <wycats> which is then processed for exports
  810. # [20:18] <wycats> if the source is an ES6 module, the system will do the processing, but an author can also override the link hook to process foreign modules (AMD/CommonJS/etc) as long as they can produce an immutable set of exports
  811. # [20:20] * Joins: sicking (~sicking@nat/mozilla/x-vyijzxamwtkpsxlq)
  812. # [20:21] <wycats> Hixie_: is that any clearer?
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  815. # [20:23] <miketaylr> TabAtkins: i know rwaldron gets upset about adding things to navigator, but I think it's fine if it is somehow related to device (or browser as proxy for device)
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  823. # [20:35] <rwaldron> miketaylr: doesn't matter, the navigator object is already the new garbage dump, so it's lost cause to care.
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  825. # [20:36] * miketaylr shrugs
  826. # [20:37] <rwaldron> Anyway, I agree with the positions stated above, ie. "<Hixie_> i'd put things on navigator if they're abotu the browser specifically" and "<Ms2ger> If they're todo with the navigator, I guess"
  827. # [20:38] <Hixie_> wycats: why couldn't you declare a module with <script>?
  828. # [20:38] <rwaldron> getUserMedia? vibrate? contacts?
  829. # [20:38] <rwaldron> those are not browser related and yet... there they are.
  830. # [20:38] <Hixie_> wycats: i mean, if we added the logic to do that
  831. # [20:39] <wycats> Hixie_: we could have <script module="name">...</script>
  832. # [20:39] <wycats> that would work, and be up to the browser to manage
  833. # [20:39] <Hixie_> wycats: that's what i proposed in the script preloading e-mail yesterday, fwiw
  834. # [20:40] <wycats> From the perspective of ES6, the browser loader is just managing the storage for the "name" module
  835. # [20:40] <Hixie_> right
  836. # [20:40] <Domenic_> yeah that would just be (optimizable) sugar for <script>Loader.load("name");</script>
  837. # [20:40] <wycats> it's potentially slightly confusing from a terminology perspective
  838. # [20:41] <wycats> <module name="foo">...</module> might be better
  839. # [20:41] <wycats> since the contents of the script tag isn't a JS script
  840. # [20:41] <Domenic_> <link rel="js-module">?
  841. # [20:41] <Hixie_> Domenic_: it has other advantages, e.g. it lets you make other scripts wait until this one is downloaded before they try to run
  842. # [20:41] <wycats> links don't close
  843. # [20:41] <Hixie_> <module> has a very poor back-compat story and <link> wouldn't let you do inline modules
  844. # [20:41] <Domenic_> Hixie_: ah right, that whole microsyntax that was developing.
  845. # [20:42] <wycats> Hixie_: <script type="module"> :P
  846. # [20:42] <Hixie_> wycats: well that's what module="" would do, the type is still js
  847. # [20:42] <wycats> you probably want it to not be parsed in old browsers so it could be polyfilled
  848. # [20:42] <wycats> via a transpiler
  849. # [20:42] <Hixie_> wycats: does running a script that contains nothing but a module declaration throw a SyntaxError? or does it do something else?
  850. # [20:42] <wycats> Hixie_: there is no such thing as a module declaration
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  852. # [20:42] <wycats> (anymore)
  853. # [20:42] <Hixie_> oh
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  855. # [20:43] <Hixie_> so you can't distinguish a module from a program at a syntax level?
  856. # [20:43] <wycats> Hixie_: exactly
  857. # [20:43] <Hixie_> interesting
  858. # [20:43] <Domenic_> wycats: oh??
  859. # [20:43] <wycats> except for the existence of import/export
  860. # [20:43] <Domenic_> woah, things have changed
  861. # [20:43] <wycats> Domenic_: we're going to lean on network-level bundling (SPDY, HTTP2, zip URLs, etc.) for bundling
  862. # [20:43] <Hixie_> import/export would fail in legacy browsers?
  863. # [20:44] <Domenic_> wycats: +1 from me, just thought that was a non-starter for consensus
  864. # [20:44] <wycats> Hixie_: yep
  865. # [20:44] <Hixie_> ok then polyfilling is easy, since the script would fail
  866. # [20:44] <wycats> which is why I was suggesting <script type="module" module="foo">
  867. # [20:44] <Hixie_> no need to do anything more explicit
  868. # [20:44] <wycats> it's theoretically possible to have a module with no import/export
  869. # [20:44] <Hixie_> would such a module be able to detect it was being run as a module vs a program?
  870. # [20:45] <Domenic_> ^ fairly common for shim modules
  871. # [20:45] <wycats> Hixie_: yes, modules opt into strict mode, for one thing
  872. # [20:45] <wycats> they also have different scope
  873. # [20:45] <Hixie_> ok so it could just do its own fallback handling
  874. # [20:45] <wycats> var foo = 1 doesn't pollute the global scope in modules
  875. # [20:45] <Hixie_> "ok, i'm a program, let's do this..." vs "ok, i'm a module, let's do that..."
  876. # [20:46] <wycats> Hixie_: it would be nicer to stop modules from loading at all in old browsers
  877. # [20:46] <Hixie_> just stick an import declaration
  878. # [20:46] <Hixie_> it'll fail early
  879. # [20:46] <wycats> would <script type="text/javascript; module"> be parsed as JS
  880. # [20:46] <Hixie_> or export
  881. # [20:46] <Hixie_> or whatever
  882. # [20:47] <wycats> Hixie_: perhaps
  883. # [20:47] <Hixie_> you don't want to require type=module, since it'll be a cost you have to pay for all time
  884. # [20:47] <wycats> I'm unsure what the consequences of gratuitous exceptions might be
  885. # [20:47] <wycats> type=module could be optional
  886. # [20:47] <wycats> just to aid polyfills
  887. # [20:47] <Hixie_> well they can do that regardless
  888. # [20:47] <wycats> it's just a type that new browsers treat as JS
  889. # [20:47] <Hixie_> type=text/plain or whatever
  890. # [20:47] <Hixie_> oh, i see
  891. # [20:47] <wycats> no... if they do it it will block new browsers from parsing as JS
  892. # [20:47] <wycats> c
  893. # [20:47] * Hixie_ shrugs
  894. # [20:47] <wycats> (confirm)
  895. # [20:48] <wycats> Hixie_: it's a pretty simple back-compat hack without long-term consequences
  896. # [20:48] <Hixie_> unless there's a big problem here it seems simpler to not do anything
  897. # [20:48] <Hixie_> anyway. how much are we really expecting authors to bother with modules and try to be backwards-compatible?
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  899. # [20:48] <Hixie_> i'd expect authors to wait a few years before trying to use this
  900. # [20:49] <Hixie_> doesn't seem worth the pain
  901. # [20:49] <wycats> I plan to use modules within months for Ember
  902. # [20:49] <wycats> via polyfills
  903. # [20:49] <wycats> and transpilers
  904. # [20:49] <wycats> https://github.com/square/es6-module-transpiler
  905. # [20:49] <Hixie_> sure but you're not going to use <script module> to do it, you didn't even know it was an option :-P
  906. # [20:50] <wycats> for now, I can tell people to do <script type="text/x-module">
  907. # [20:50] <wycats> and not worry about future breakage
  908. # [20:50] <wycats> but it would be nice if there was something that would "just work" in the future
  909. # [20:50] <wycats> so eventually the polyfill could be retired
  910. # [20:50] <wycats> or only loaded in old browsers
  911. # [20:51] <Hixie_> in the future, there won't be old browsers
  912. # [20:51] <Hixie_> :-)
  913. # [20:51] <wycats> in the far future, there won't be old browsers
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  1009. # [23:43] * gavinc cries at url handling
  1010. # [23:43] <gavinc> Fish%20&amp%3B%20Richardson gee thanks for turning the URL into HTML
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The end :)