/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2013-08-29 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Aug 29 00:00:00 2013
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  5. # [00:04] <annevk> whoa, seems a couple of people replied to my email
  6. # [00:04] <annevk> oh no, it's mostly fine
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  14. # [00:19] <annevk> gavinc: that looks some other layer got in between, that's not typical URL handling, unless you're messing with the wrong encodings... but then you wouldn't get that exactly either
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  19. # [00:21] <MikeSmith> annevk: last week when you were talking about this zip and URL stuff I hadn't realized where you were headed with it. This is pretty cool (now that I understand)
  20. # [00:21] <MikeSmith> I hope it gets some interest and support
  21. # [00:23] <annevk> It's getting a bit more concrete
  22. # [00:24] <annevk> There's some notes about other details here btw: https://etherpad.mozilla.org/zipurls
  23. # [00:27] * MikeSmith reads
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  26. # [00:29] <MikeSmith> nice simple API
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  28. # [00:32] <annevk> I'm fearing it might get more complicated if people want to support creation client-side
  29. # [00:32] <Hixie_> so does nobody have an opinion on the script preloading thing other than kyle? (kyle promised to write me some e-mails this weekend)
  30. # [00:32] <annevk> "some emails"? *braces for impact*
  31. # [00:33] <annevk> I suspect JakeA will review
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  33. # [00:33] <Hixie_> he said he'd take some time to make them shorter, so there's hope :-)
  34. # [00:33] * annevk has been working on zip archives
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  39. # [00:39] <zewt> Hixie: i seem to recall having one, but it's been too long
  40. # [00:39] <zewt> i may have got out-bandwidthed on that discussion
  41. # [00:41] <gavinc> annevk: Yeah, a few things went wrong to get that result. Javascript bug, apache rewrite bug, template language bug. All combined for awesome.
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  43. # [00:44] <JakeA> annevk: Hixie_: I'll look through it all tomorrow. It's possible he has a point, I just haven't seen it yet. I'll need to sharpen my cruft scythe to cut through all the word-fern
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  69. # [01:22] <Hixie_> zewt, JakeA: in my last e-mail there was a proposal that should address most use cases. i'm particualrly interested in feedback on that proposal (whether i missed use cases that it fails, whether some use cases should be abandoned and thus the proposal simplified, or whether there's another way to address those use cases)
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  108. # [03:00] <Hixie_> man, i hate twitter. not even enough room for "thanks!" in my last tweet.
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  113. # [03:17] <tantek> Hixie_ perhaps you should start tweeting from your own site instead. #indiewebcamp ;)
  114. # [03:17] <Hixie_> how would that reach the people on twitter?
  115. # [03:18] <Hixie_> i only tweet when i have to respond to something there
  116. # [03:18] <tantek> Hixie_ I've been tweeting from my own site since 2010-01-01
  117. # [03:18] <tantek> "how would that reach the people on twitter?" in short, POSSE
  118. # [03:19] <tantek> longer explanation: http://indiewebcamp.com/POSSE
  119. # [03:19] <tantek> specifically for responding to something on Twitter: http://indiewebcamp.com/Twitter#POSSE_Replies_to_Tweets
  120. # [03:21] <Hixie_> so... that's exactly what i did
  121. # [03:22] <Hixie_> i posted to "my own site", the whatwg mailing list, then responded to a comment on twitter by linking to that.
  122. # [03:23] <tantek> ah, a manual POSSE ok
  123. # [03:24] <Hixie_> (btw, automated syndication to third-party sites is terrible. it makes interaction with the syndicators on those sites horrible.)
  124. # [03:25] <Hixie_> i love how many people have reforwarded paul_irish's tweet and my tweet vs how many have actually given any feedback. -_-
  125. # [03:25] <tantek> email is hard, let's tweet
  126. # [03:26] <Hixie_> btw i was amused the other day
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  128. # [03:26] <Hixie_> i was reading some indieweb stuff that someone linked to on g+, i think it wa-- oh, he left.
  129. # [03:26] <Hixie_> oh well.
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  133. # [03:38] <MikeSmith> oh "whenneeded"
  134. # [03:39] <MikeSmith> that's quite a string a letteres in a row
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  137. # [03:42] <Hixie_> yeah the attribute name definitely leaves something to be desired
  138. # [03:44] <MikeSmith> random thought for an alternative: "earmarked"
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  140. # [03:44] <MikeSmith> "I encourage you to work on editing." hah yeah
  141. # [03:45] <MikeSmith> "Less words please."
  142. # [03:47] <Hixie_> earmarked="asap" vs earmarked="jit"? hmm...
  143. # [03:47] <Hixie_> the thing about whenneeded="" is that it is thematically consistent with needed="", at least
  144. # [03:47] <Hixie_> and markNeeded(), though i've since renamed that execute() in the proposal
  145. # [03:48] <MikeSmith> so could just use "earmark" as a noun instead of "earmarked"
  146. # [03:49] <MikeSmith> is there any purpose of the dependency count other than knowing whether it's zero or non-zero?
  147. # [03:50] <MikeSmith> or you need the actual count for knowing how many times you need to iterate?
  148. # [03:50] <Hixie_> it's just a boolean, but having it be a count means you don't (as an author) need to do the count yourself
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  150. # [03:51] <MikeSmith> ok
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  152. # [03:56] <zewt> i haven't had a chance to go over that email in depth, but one early impression: having a set of strings is easier to debug than a refcount (if somebody forgets to decrement a count, or decrements it twice, it's harder to figure out who than if you add and remove a string from a set)
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  169. # [04:43] <MikeSmith> Hixie_: so how do I get the dependency count? Or I don't need to, I just do decDependencies() til and if it throws, that's all I need to know?
  170. # [04:44] <MikeSmith> also, you got an sentence there that you cut off in mid-thought, "If decDependencies() is called and it reduces the number to zero,
  171. # [04:44] <MikeSmith> ...
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  173. # [04:47] <Hixie_> MikeSmith: you shouldn't need the number yourself, i don't think
  174. # [04:47] <MikeSmith> ok
  175. # [04:47] <Hixie_> MikeSmith: yeah, the sentence should be something like "...zero, you check if you should run the script" or some such
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  196. # [06:28] <MikeSmith> Hixie_: for the case of <table><input></table> do you think the validator should emit an error message or not?
  197. # [06:28] <MikeSmith> ideally I mean
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  221. # [08:07] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: per spec it seems like <table><input></table> should cause a parse error to be reported before it gets foster-parented
  222. # [08:08] <MikeSmith> but in the parser code I find no condition under which it will actually report an error
  223. # [08:19] <MikeSmith> specifically, in the TreeBuilder code at http://hg.mozilla.org/projects/htmlparser/file/f5c39b263341/src/nu/validator/htmlparser/impl/TreeBuilder.java#l1875 before it checks for type=hidden (and falls back to IN_BODY) or otherwise proceeds, it seems like it should call errStartTagInTable(name) right away
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  230. # [08:32] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: OK
  231. # [08:33] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: should I raise a bug and make a patch?
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  234. # [08:42] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: makes senes
  235. # [08:42] <hsivonen> sense
  236. # [08:43] <MikeSmith> k
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  256. # [09:39] <zcorpan> annevk: application/xml doesn't work for .svg if you want to be able to embed it in <img>
  257. # [09:39] <zcorpan> annevk: also, mapping for .xhtml and .xht are usually application/xhtml+xml
  258. # [09:41] <zcorpan> annevk: iirc, the correct type for .ico is image/x-icon (MS don't use image/vnd.microsoft.icon and they didn't register it)
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  260. # [09:48] <zcorpan> Hixie_: how about when="asap", when="jit"?
  261. # [09:49] <zcorpan> or when=needed :-)
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  270. # [10:06] <hsivonen> annevk: could you retweet https://twitter.com/hsivonen/status/372993894767525888 from @encodings please?
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  285. # [10:59] <jgraham> I agree with zewt about the refcount sounding hard to debug
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  302. # [11:55] <hsivonen> Clearly, I don't have enough Twitter followers using the Greek localization of Windows
  303. # [11:59] <zcorpan> hsivonen: is there data on how often users switch style sheets in firefox?
  304. # [12:00] <hsivonen> zcorpan: I don't know. probably not
  305. # [12:01] <zcorpan> ok
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  307. # [12:01] <hsivonen> zcorpan: why do you want to know?
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  309. # [12:02] <zcorpan> hsivonen: i'm investigating whether alternative stylesheets can be dropped from the web platform
  310. # [12:02] <annevk> zcorpan: good point about SVG, I don't want to do XHTML unless we decide we need MIME type to decide Document type which would be unfortunate
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  313. # [12:04] <annevk> hsivonen: will do, if you have access to WHATWG GitHub you can do that too though
  314. # [12:05] <hsivonen> zcorpan: Would x% of Firefox sessions involve an alternative stylesheet having been selected at least once during the session be a suitable metric?
  315. # [12:05] <hsivonen> annevk: If I have access, I don't know about it. Thanks.
  316. # [12:06] <annevk> hsivonen: do you want to be a member?
  317. # [12:06] <hsivonen> annevk: ok
  318. # [12:07] <annevk> hsivonen: added
  319. # [12:07] <hsivonen> annevk: you retweeted as URL, but close enough :-)
  320. # [12:07] <hsivonen> annevk: thanks
  321. # [12:08] <annevk> hsivonen: oh lol
  322. # [12:08] * annevk fixes
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  325. # [12:09] <zcorpan> hsivonen: yeah, i guess
  326. # [12:10] <hsivonen> zcorpan: ok. that would be pretty easy to do with telemetry
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  330. # [12:30] <annevk> Modules without module {}; that's kinda neat.
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  333. # [12:40] <zcorpan> hsivonen: it would also be interesting to know how often stylesheets are switched using javascript. i would expect most users that switch stylesheets use page-provided button rather than the browser's View menu
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  335. # [12:41] <hsivonen> zcorpan: ah. that might be harder to detect
  336. # [12:42] <zcorpan> hsivonen: i think the most common way to switch is toggling .disabled on <link>, but i don't have data on that
  337. # [12:42] <zcorpan> (and it doesn't work in webkit/blink (anymore))
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  341. # [12:51] <zcorpan> hsivonen: blink/webkit have UseCounter to measure API usage. does gecko have something like that?
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  348. # [12:58] * Ms2ger wonders if Opera had that first
  349. # [12:58] <jgraham> zcorpan: Looks like you can do something like that. Although I haven't quite worked out which API one uses for counting things
  350. # [12:58] <jgraham> Ms2ger: I don't think so
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  354. # [13:17] <hsivonen> zcorpan: not in genenic way
  355. # [13:17] <hsivonen> generic
  356. # [13:17] <hsivonen> aargh. Our Macedonian localization defaults to UTF-8
  357. # [13:18] <hsivonen> why not windows-1251?
  358. # [13:19] <hsivonen> I think I'm done tilting at the localization windmills and will now endeavor to take this stuff away from localizations.
  359. # [13:19] <hsivonen> The files on spec bugs, though.
  360. # [13:19] <hsivonen> The spec doesn't cover Belarusian, Kazakh or Macedonian
  361. # [13:19] <hsivonen> or Greek
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  363. # [13:23] * annevk -> lunch
  364. # [13:25] <SimonSapin> hsivonen: is there a spec describing all that?
  365. # [13:26] <hsivonen> SimonSapin: not all that. I need to file spec bugs to broaden the HTML spec's coverage
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  367. # [13:28] <JakeA> annevk: If I navigate to a file within a zip, how does the browser know how to render it, given the lack of content-type?
  368. # [13:28] <JakeA> (still working through the thread, so sorry if that came up)
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  372. # [13:38] <zcorpan> has IE always had swapNode()?
  373. # [13:39] <zcorpan> document.documentElement.swapNode(document.doctype) works
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  379. # [13:59] <darobin> haha, sweet
  380. # [14:01] <darobin> zcorpan: I have dim memories of using swapNode() from a long time ago; I suspect it's been around for quite a while
  381. # [14:01] <darobin> it's nice, too
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  393. # [14:33] <annevk> JakeA: file extension
  394. # [14:34] <JakeA> annevk: Would that be a new thing to add to the platform?
  395. # [14:34] <annevk> JakeA: yes
  396. # [14:34] <JakeA> gotcha
  397. # [14:34] <annevk> JakeA: congrats on being the first to think about this
  398. # [14:34] <annevk> JakeA: https://etherpad.mozilla.org/zipurls explains it
  399. # [14:35] <annevk> JakeA: might put that text in http://fetch.spec.whatwg.org/ later today so it's more readable
  400. # [14:37] <annevk> JakeA: oh, many good points in your email
  401. # [14:37] <annevk> JakeA: we'd need to forward some headers indeed
  402. # [14:39] * JakeA wonders if index.html would be returned for a zip url for a directory that contained an index.html
  403. # [14:41] <annevk> JakeA: you mean if you do html.zip%! ?
  404. # [14:41] <JakeA> yeah
  405. # [14:41] <annevk> JakeA: we could
  406. # [14:41] <JakeA> or whatever.zip%!dir
  407. # [14:41] <JakeA> where there was a dir/index.html
  408. # [14:41] <annevk> JakeA: that's more magical
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  410. # [14:41] <annevk> JakeA: because there could be a "dir" too
  411. # [14:42] <annevk> although I guess we could go by lack of extension
  412. # [14:42] <annevk> or require a trailing /
  413. # [14:42] <annevk> I guess in general we could add those kind of things, but it would involve more logic and reinventing even more stuff
  414. # [14:43] <JakeA> I was pondering what would break if I took an existing static site and zipped it
  415. # [14:43] <annevk> e.g. would it then look for index.xml ?
  416. # [14:43] <JakeA> agree it's magic, but perhaps expected
  417. # [14:44] <JakeA> tbh, most of the complication here is allowing full pages to load from a zip
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  419. # [14:46] <annevk> JakeA: that's what pushes you from fragments to sub-scheme / zip-path, agreed
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  421. # [14:46] <annevk> JakeA: either way complexity is there though
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  423. # [14:47] <JakeA> annevk: yeah, I thought for a moment the relative-url problem goes away if it was only allowed on resources, but it doesn't (css, svg etc)
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  425. # [14:47] <JakeA> in fact, having relative urls work feels super important for css
  426. # [14:50] <annevk> Yeah, should probably start using CSS as example
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  436. # [15:06] <annevk> JakeA: replied. Still don't quite a good argument against the "use a fancy server setup" annoyingly enough
  437. # [15:07] <annevk> JakeA: I guess it sorta boils down to "don't argue for XHTML2 when we can do this in HTML instead" but it doesn't fit exactly
  438. # [15:08] <JakeA> yeah, I know what you mean.
  439. # [15:08] <jgraham> FWIW I assume that module syntax could be changed if there was a strong benefit to having multiple modules in a file
  440. # [15:08] <JakeA> But we already have concatenation of CSS, JS, image spriting… I don't think there's a benefit combining the different types together
  441. # [15:09] <JakeA> If I combine CSS & JS, I'm delaying first-render
  442. # [15:09] <annevk> jgraham: It was recently changed to remove it
  443. # [15:10] <annevk> JakeA: that depends on request latency vs bandwidth too
  444. # [15:10] <annevk> JakeA: with high latency a single request might be good
  445. # [15:11] <annevk> JakeA: especially if we improve the zip archive format over time (or introduce a fancy researched alternative)
  446. # [15:11] <jgraham> annevk: I know, but that could have been because the use case wasn't discussed, or they didn't consider the problems with zip files or something
  447. # [15:12] <JakeA> annevk: If first render requires HTML + CSS (2 requests), then HTML + ZIP{CSS + JS} (2 requests) is going to take longer no matter what the latency is
  448. # [15:12] <JakeA> since ZIP{CSS + JS} will be larger than CSS
  449. # [15:14] <jgraham> Uh
  450. # [15:14] <jgraham> I assume you mean ZIP(CSS+JS) will be larger than ZIP(CSS)
  451. # [15:15] <jgraham> But it is also possible that the optimal is HTML(inc. minimal inline CSS) + ZIP(CSS+JS)
  452. # [15:15] <annevk> JakeA: I'm saying it might be less long overall and for high latency that might be better
  453. # [15:16] <JakeA> jgraham: I was assuming the CSS would be gzipped
  454. # [15:16] <annevk> JakeA: if you argue on perf grounds however you clearly want a fully optimized HTTP2 setup that's not going to be in the hands of anyone soon
  455. # [15:16] <JakeA> jgraham: and yeah, inline CSS would be faster still
  456. # [15:18] <wilhelm_> Is this stuff in any spec yet?
  457. # [15:19] <JakeA> annevk: if the use-case here is cutting down http requests for performance reasons, we need a format that allows for streaming, otherwise we're trading time-to-first-render for overall load time, and I think the former is better in most cases
  458. # [15:19] <JakeA> Eg, I'd rather look at the core content but missing imagery than a blank screen
  459. # [15:19] <annevk> JakeA: I think the use cases are easier management of files and dealing with the myriad of zip archive-based formats out there
  460. # [15:23] <jgraham> I think it is inevitable that people will want to use this for performance
  461. # [15:23] <annevk> They might, and if it doesn't work they'll switch back. Or Google or Apple or Microsoft will invent a better format with the same properties.
  462. # [15:24] <JakeA> I guess it'd be useful for things I explicitly don't want to render progressively, like fonts maybe
  463. # [15:24] <JakeA> especially different weights of the same typeface
  464. # [15:25] <annevk> Or things you want to have fetched together. Or things you want to distribute on lots of servers without having to worry about files going missing or getting replaced.
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  477. # [16:11] <annevk> JakeA: more to the point, do you think Chrome would be interested in implementing something like this?
  478. # [16:11] <GPHemsley> I was considering adding recommended file extensions to mimesniff before; would that be helpful with zip packages?
  479. # [16:13] <annevk> No, and please don't do that
  480. # [16:14] * GPHemsley goes back to not caring about things
  481. # [16:14] <annevk> Apart from one sad place in plugin loading, the web doesn't do extensions.
  482. # [16:16] <GPHemsley> The original intent was for downloading
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  485. # [16:17] <annevk> Oh, opposite direction...
  486. # [16:17] <JakeA> annevk: no idea tbh, Alex Russell has better contacts there. If it's required to sensibly work with ES modules, I guess it'll go in
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  531. # [17:53] <annevk> heycam|away: so we need actual Array in IDL
  532. # [17:53] <annevk> heycam|away: and I'd like to hint in the IDL what developers can expect
  533. # [17:54] <annevk> heycam|away: e.g. Promise<Array[DOMString]>
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  541. # [18:08] <jgraham> Ms2ger: So if the manifest files for w-p-t aren't going to be human-written, shall I just switch to manifestdestiny?
  542. # [18:08] <Ms2ger> So what did we end up with?
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  545. # [18:11] <Ms2ger> Autogenerated manifests in the repo?
  546. # [18:11] <jgraham> I think we ended up with -manual suffix indicates a manual test, -ref suffix indicates a ref, markup files containing testharness.js scripts are testharness files and markup files containing whatever the reftest stuff is are ref files. All other files are helper files except a blacklist of files/directories that are nothing
  547. # [18:12] <jgraham> And maybe we get override.manifest (which could be a different format)
  548. # [18:12] <jgraham> Depending on what happens about tests that want URLs
  549. # [18:13] <Ms2ger> I think I'd prefer just having a python script that computes and returns the data
  550. # [18:13] <Ms2ger> Rather than that + its output
  551. # [18:16] <jgraham> If you do that you can't cache it
  552. # [18:16] <jgraham> Which is annoying
  553. # [18:16] <jgraham> In particular if you want to parse files rather than use regexps, it's necessary to allow incremental updates
  554. # [18:17] <jgraham> Alhtough I guess maybe just dumping JSON would work too
  555. # [18:17] <jgraham> In fact that seems far and away the simplest thing
  556. # [18:17] <jgraham> I'll do that
  557. # [18:18] <jgraham> (also, for Moz. we need to store the expected result of each test somewhere, and I imagine that will also be in the manifest, on a local branch)
  558. # [18:18] <Ms2ger> How does updating work anyway? Based on timestamps?
  559. # [18:18] <jgraham> Based on git hash
  560. # [18:18] <jgraham> I haven't fully thought about this yet
  561. # [18:19] <Ms2ger> And a local branch of what?
  562. # [18:19] <Ms2ger> For the expected result
  563. # [18:19] <Ms2ger> You need to be able to easily update those in an m-c push
  564. # [18:19] <jgraham> Well
  565. # [18:19] <jgraham> This is the bit I haven't fully thought about yet
  566. # [18:20] <Ms2ger> That's a somewhat important bit :)
  567. # [18:20] <jgraham> But I figure you have a local clone with a "mozilla" branch
  568. # [18:20] <Hixie_> MikeSmith: for the case of <table><input></table> - sure, why would it not be an error? i mean, it's a content model thing if nothing else
  569. # [18:20] <jgraham> And Mozilla is origin/master + a commit that adds the manifests
  570. # [18:20] <Hixie_> MikeSmith: note that <input type=hidden> doesn't get foster parented
  571. # [18:21] <Hixie_> zcorpan: <script when> doesn't really make sense though
  572. # [18:21] <Ms2ger> Hixie_, content model how? There's no input in the table in the DOM
  573. # [18:21] <jgraham> and when you update origin you rebase onto that branch
  574. # [18:21] <jgraham> Uh
  575. # [18:21] <jgraham> You rebase that branch onto origin/master
  576. # [18:21] <Hixie_> Ms2ger: oh, fair enough
  577. # [18:21] <Hixie_> anything that's foster parented should always be a parse error
  578. # [18:21] <Ms2ger> Fair
  579. # [18:21] <jgraham> So you are always a few commits ahead of origin, but nothing should conflict
  580. # [18:22] <Hixie_> and if it's not foster parented (e.g. cos type=hidden) then it's a content model error instead
  581. # [18:22] <Ms2ger> jgraham, no idea what you're saying :)
  582. # [18:22] <jgraham> and then in m-c you either copy that branch across with all the manifest data, or make the build process pull in a specific revision of that repo (like gaia)
  583. # [18:22] <jgraham> Ms2ger: Oh :(
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  585. # [18:23] <Hixie_> in other news, the updated dfn.js is cool.
  586. # [18:23] <Ms2ger> I *really* don't want to touch other repos to fix Gecko bugs
  587. # [18:23] <Hixie_> why i didn't do this earlier, i dunno
  588. # [18:23] <jgraham> Ms2ger: Well if you want to commit a test to the other repo you kind of have to. But if you want to use it read-only then copying is a reasonable thing to do ofc.
  589. # [18:24] <jgraham> I'm not sure which is best overall
  590. # [18:24] <annevk> Hixie_: what's new?
  591. # [18:24] <jgraham> But I'm sure this is at least a solvable problem
  592. # [18:24] <Hixie_> annevk: it moves the box to the bottom right when you click a link, so you can just go through the others without having to go back to the dfn each time
  593. # [18:24] <jgraham> What I am even more worried about is how you get a all the expected data up to date automagically
  594. # [18:25] <jgraham> It seems like it has to be racy
  595. # [18:25] <annevk> Hixie_: wow
  596. # [18:25] <Hixie_> it was like 3 lines of new code
  597. # [18:25] <jgraham> Hixie_: Oooh! Neat
  598. # [18:25] <annevk> Hixie_: that's awesome
  599. # [18:25] <Hixie_> brb commute
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  601. # [18:26] <Ms2ger> jgraham, how about "each m-c revision knows which tests are expected to fail"?
  602. # [18:28] <jgraham> Ms2ger: How though? If I import 100 new tests how do I work out which tests are expected to fail?
  603. # [18:28] <jgraham> I can run those tests in a specific revision and update the expectations
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  605. # [18:28] <jgraham> But by the time I do that there will be a new revision
  606. # [18:28] <jgraham> of m-c
  607. # [18:29] <jgraham> Which might fail different tests
  608. # [18:29] <Ms2ger> And then make sure you push the expectations before something lands that changes the expectations
  609. # [18:29] <jgraham> That sounds racy…
  610. # [18:29] <Ms2ger> Not more so than any change
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  612. # [18:32] <jgraham> Hmm, maybeI have to think of m-c as a shared resource with some sort of optimistic concurrency
  613. # [18:32] <Ms2ger> Or you can close all the trees :)
  614. # [18:32] <Ms2ger> Doesn't help if a change that breaks your expectation landed on fx-team while you landed your update to inbound
  615. # [18:35] <Ms2ger> Let's say I don't think someone breaking your tests while you're adding them is something you should worry about a lot
  616. # [18:35] <jgraham> So the problem I have is that it doesn't obviously feel like it will be low contention. I don't know what the rate of changesets coming in that affect web platform support is
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  618. # [18:39] <Ms2ger> Depends on how big your imports will be, I guess
  619. # [18:39] <Ms2ger> And how diverse
  620. # [18:44] <jgraham> Yeah, I guess that's a good point. If the imports are frequent there is less chance of conflicts.
  621. # [18:44] <jgraham> I don't control the diversity though if the goal is to run everything (which I think it is)
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  623. # [18:44] <annevk> Zip archives: http://fetch.spec.whatwg.org/#zip-archives (has infrastructure plus API, but not the URL/Fetch stuff)
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  627. # [18:55] <SimonSapin> annevk: does the zip format have a spec you can refer to?
  628. # [18:56] <annevk> SimonSapin: I think it might be http://www.pkware.com/documents/casestudies/APPNOTE.TXT
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  630. # [19:01] <jgraham> My understanding is that that's a "spec" more in the tradition of HTML4
  631. # [19:01] <jgraham> i.e. it doesn't actually define enough to provide interop
  632. # [19:02] <SimonSapin> jgraham: are you suggesting that annevk should rewrite it? :)
  633. # [19:02] <zewt> yeah, I wasn't sure if you mean "refer to" as in "look at as a reference to write a spec" or as in "a normative reference"
  634. # [19:02] <zewt> but yes, it definitely needs to be rewritten (a much smaller subset of)
  635. # [19:02] <zewt> otherwise it'll be an interop nightmare (for example, like we talked about on the list, the local file header vs. central file directory issue)
  636. # [19:04] <zewt> and all the usual error handling and parsing details that non-web-specs rarely address
  637. # [19:04] <zewt> afk
  638. # [19:05] <jgraham> SimonSapin: I'm suggesting that someone has to if we want this to not be a disaster
  639. # [19:05] <jgraham> So yes, in short
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  641. # [19:08] <annevk> That APPNOTE.TXT file seems to suggest that might not be okay with them? It's a bit unclear what the legal situation is to me.
  642. # [19:09] <annevk> Which I guess might kill this thing altogether?
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  646. # [19:15] <tantek> how does HTTP 1.1 reference gzip compression?
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  650. # [19:19] <jgraham> RFC 1952
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  657. # [19:46] <Hixie_> annevk: (your zip idl has > where you want <)
  658. # [19:46] <Hixie_> annevk: is there a url format for accessing files in zip archives?
  659. # [19:47] <Hixie_> annevk: or do you have to get urls to files out of them by script?
  660. # [19:47] <TabAtkins> Hixie_: That's what Anne is trying to come up with.
  661. # [19:48] <Hixie_> doesn't it have to be a fragment identifier?
  662. # [19:48] <Hixie_> i mean, it's semantically logical, no?
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  664. # [19:48] <Hixie_> http://.../...zip#path/to/file.html#fragmentInHTMLFile
  665. # [19:49] <Hixie_> i guess it makes relative urls weird
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  680. # [20:25] <zewt> Hixie_: i think all of the approaches do something weird with relative urls
  681. # [20:26] <zewt> annevk: sorry, suggest that what might not be okay with them?
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  683. # [20:26] <zewt> the file format needs respeccing no matter what, as for whether it's okay to use that as a reference I don't know...
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  711. # [21:43] <annevk> Hixie_: fragment identifiers have problems, see the email
  712. # [21:43] <Hixie_> "the"?
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  714. # [21:44] <annevk> Hixie_: OP
  715. # [21:44] <Hixie_> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-whatwg-archive/2013Aug/0278.html ?
  716. # [21:44] <annevk> Hixie_: yeah
  717. # [21:45] <Hixie_> if you're going to change the url syntax anyway, you can make fragments work
  718. # [21:45] <annevk> zewt: see section 1.4 of http://www.pkware.com/documents/casestudies/APPNOTE.TXT
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  720. # [21:45] <Hixie_> just redefine how relative urls are resolved when you're in a "zip context"
  721. # [21:45] <annevk> Hixie_: except then you also need to change HTML, CSS, etc. to make them aware they're loaded from a zip
  722. # [21:45] <Hixie_> why?
  723. # [21:46] <annevk> Hixie_: "zip context" ;)
  724. # [21:46] <Hixie_> it's a pretty localised change
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  726. # [21:46] <Hixie_> you'd just have http://.../...zip#path/to/file#subfrag
  727. # [21:46] <annevk> What about the links in #path/to/file ?
  728. # [21:46] <Hixie_> and you'd say that when you're in a zip file context resolving a url, "foo/bar" resolves relative to the #path/to/file part
  729. # [21:47] <Hixie_> i guess you'd actually only have to change the relative url resolver, not the syntax
  730. # [21:47] <annevk> And ##foo would cause scrolling?
  731. # [21:47] <Hixie_> just #foo would cause scrolling
  732. # [21:48] <Hixie_> it'd require careful thought around how Location exposes these urls
  733. # [21:49] <annevk> Given that the resolved URL would also still have the fragments and you'd sometimes have to move them over to Fetch and sometimes handle them locally it would all get rather messy...
  734. # [21:49] <Hixie_> i think that's a given regardless of the solution...
  735. # [21:49] <annevk> Using a sub-scheme or zip-path seems much simpler
  736. # [21:49] <Hixie_> well a subscheme doesn't seem to be any cleaner really
  737. # [21:50] <Hixie_> you have all the same problems
  738. # [21:50] <Hixie_> like, Location's API would be very confused
  739. # [21:50] <Hixie_> anyway, i'm not saying teh frag id thing is a better idea
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  747. # [22:00] <annevk> Your fragment idea is novel, admittedly. Should probably consider it some more.
  748. # [22:01] <Hixie_> might be worth looking at how compound e-mails handle relative urls
  749. # [22:01] <Hixie_> oh, here's another idea
  750. # [22:02] <Hixie_> so you navigate to http://example.com/foo.zip#baz/bar.html
  751. # [22:02] <Hixie_> but the actual URL of the file that's loaded isn't that
  752. # [22:02] <Hixie_> it's zip:///baz/bar.html
  753. # [22:02] <Hixie_> or zip://36573525327537/baz/bar.html
  754. # [22:03] <Hixie_> or zip://example.com/36573525327537/baz/bar.html
  755. # [22:03] <Hixie_> where 36573525327537 is some unique id for the zip file
  756. # [22:03] <Hixie_> much like how blob: urls work
  757. # [22:04] <annevk> Yeah, mnot suggested that too
  758. # [22:04] <Hixie_> probably need to encode the origin in there somehow
  759. # [22:05] <annevk> Then you have an outer and inner URL and need to deal with origin specially.
  760. # [22:05] <annevk> The only problem %/ or %! has is that it's not legal URL syntax at the moment...
  761. # [22:05] <Hixie_> well we already have lots of logic for dealing with origins like that
  762. # [22:05] <Hixie_> what would %/ have Location.path return?
  763. # [22:06] <annevk> Your goal is preserving URL syntax to the extent it is ruined already?
  764. # [22:06] <Hixie_> my goal is mainly making it possible to take self-contained stuff, stick it in a zip file, and have it work unmodified
  765. # [22:06] <zewt> Hixie_: it seems like it would be nice to not have blob's "local magic URL segment" so ZIP urls can always be sent around like any other URL
  766. # [22:06] <Hixie_> even if it messes around with locationpath
  767. # [22:06] <annevk> Hixie_: the bit up to %/ I think
  768. # [22:07] <annevk> Hixie_: we'd have zipPath for the other bit
  769. # [22:07] <Hixie_> zewt: you would have two URLs, one that you send around, and one used internally to make relative urls work
  770. # [22:07] <Hixie_> annevk: so you'd still have to redefine relative url resolution
  771. # [22:07] <annevk> Hixie_: yes, definitely, the idea of %! is to confine changes to URL and Fetch
  772. # [22:07] <zewt> (the whole idea of supporting navigation to zip urls makes me nervous, it's the part that makes everything complicated)
  773. # [22:07] <Hixie_> annevk: my concern with that is js-implemented url resolution would utterly break
  774. # [22:07] <annevk> zewt: no, CSS with subresources has the same issues
  775. # [22:08] <annevk> Hixie_: please hop on the new URL() train?
  776. # [22:08] <Hixie_> ?
  777. # [22:08] <zewt> annevk: not familiar with that
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  779. # [22:09] <annevk> Hixie_: maybe I'm not following your concern
  780. # [22:09] <Hixie_> annevk: say you have some script that does path manipulation
  781. # [22:09] <Hixie_> like, it concatenates "/subresource/foo.png" to location.path or something
  782. # [22:10] <Hixie_> it would break if you took that whole app and packaged it in a zip, if we change how relative urls work
  783. # [22:10] <annevk> Hixie_: it seems that's true for using fragments too
  784. # [22:10] <Hixie_> yes
  785. # [22:10] <Hixie_> only the inner/outer thing would keep that, of the suggestions i've seen so far, i think
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  788. # [22:12] <annevk> I guess there's some appeal to it, but it seems fairly bad to introduce even more origin-magic. Shit like that goes wrong all the time. :/
  789. # [22:13] <Hixie_> oh?
  790. # [22:13] <Hixie_> like when?
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  792. # [22:13] <Hixie_> we use it e.g. for srcdoc:
  793. # [22:13] <Hixie_> not to mention about:blank, of course
  794. # [22:13] <Hixie_> (srcdoc="", not srcdoc:)
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  796. # [22:13] <annevk> It's not like data URLs work fine... Gecko had a bunch of problems with jar URLs. Not sure about srcdoc="".
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  798. # [22:14] <Hixie_> data: URLs work fine, the problem is that there's two different implementations and people disagree about which we should be doing.
  799. # [22:14] <Hixie_> (plus some issues around redirects, but we get that kind of issue with other schemes too)
  800. # [22:18] <annevk> Introducing inner/outer seems bad too. And will break code that uses e.g. document.location to get the origin...
  801. # [22:20] * heycam|away is now known as heycam
  802. # [22:22] <JakeA> Can the browser render a html response half way through the transfer, without chunked encoding?
  803. # [22:22] <Hixie_> yes
  804. # [22:22] <JakeA> Even if it's gzipped?
  805. # [22:22] <Hixie_> sure
  806. # [22:23] <Hixie_> (whether they do or not, i dunno. but they could.)
  807. # [22:23] <heycam> annevk, noted (about Array)
  808. # [22:23] <Hixie_> annevk: yeah, that's why i was trying to put the origin into the url somehow...
  809. # [22:23] <JakeA> Yeah, thought so, in an argument where I'm being told it's not possible. Pfft.
  810. # [22:23] <Hixie_> JakeA: why wouldn't it be possible?
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  812. # [22:24] <JakeA> Hixie_: yep, that's what I'm saying
  813. # [22:24] <annevk> I wonder how much people are confusing gzip and zip
  814. # [22:24] <annevk> many...
  815. # [22:25] <annevk> heycam: so yeah, we should fix the whole array mess and prolly remove []
  816. # [22:25] <JakeA> What's the benefit of chunked encoding then? Flushing without knowing the content length?
  817. # [22:25] <annevk> heycam: sequence<> seems good, but could just be "... sequence" maybe?
  818. # [22:26] <Hixie_> JakeA: there are various advantages, but yeah, one is not having to know the length ahead of time
  819. # [22:26] <annevk> heycam: like Constructor(...Blob parts, Options dict)
  820. # [22:26] <heycam> I'm not sure "…" is the right semantics if you want to pass an [] object
  821. # [22:26] * heycam -> call
  822. # [22:26] <JakeA> Hixie_: cheers!
  823. # [22:28] <annevk> heycam: I thought sequence was like var freshArr = [...arrLike] in ES6
  824. # [22:29] <annevk> heycam: I think that's what we want it to be anyway
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  826. # [22:34] <annevk> heycam: ah calls... boring
  827. # [22:35] <annevk> heycam: I also wanted to talk about ByteString and [EnsureUTF16]
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  829. # [22:36] <TabAtkins> annevk: You don't want to use ... in that way.
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  831. # [22:36] <TabAtkins> foo(...parts, dict) is equivalent to foo(parts[0], parts[1], parts[2], ..., dict) in user code.
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  833. # [22:36] <TabAtkins> Which is not the same as what you're trying to indicate there.
  834. # [22:37] <annevk> Ah yeah, that's how the constructor should have worked.
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  836. # [22:37] <annevk> So you want [...Blob] parts I guess
  837. # [22:37] <TabAtkins> Yeah.
  838. # [22:37] <TabAtkins> I guess.
  839. # [22:37] <annevk> Doing new-ES-style destructering makes a lot of sense now it exists
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  841. # [22:38] <annevk> heycam: I'm not really happy with the syntax at the moment, but http://fetch.spec.whatwg.org/#api is something like what should be expressible I guess
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  882. # [23:54] <Domenic_> heycam: annevk: TabAtkins: I think ideally parameters that can be "sequences" should just use `Array.from` semantics.
  883. # [23:54] <TabAtkins> Domenic_: What does that mean?
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  885. # [23:55] <Domenic_> TabAtkins: works on iterables, array-likes, and true arrays.
  886. # [23:55] <TabAtkins> Ah, ok. Yes.
  887. # [23:56] <Domenic_> although, you have to anticipate the possibility of infinite iterators, hrm.
  888. # [23:56] <Domenic_> i guess Array.from just loops forever for those
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  890. # [23:58] <TabAtkins> Yes.
  891. # Session Close: Fri Aug 30 00:00:01 2013

The end :)