/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2013-08-31 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sat Aug 31 00:00:00 2013
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] <tantek> HTML5 slide frameworks could also use the "tell me when X font is loaded" event
  4. # [00:00] <TabAtkins> Well, it'll be a factor function because it needs to be async.
  5. # [00:00] <tantek> since modern HTML5 slide framework templates typically use custom/nicer webfonts that are dynamically loaded these days
  6. # [00:00] <TabAtkins> tantek: Right, that one's easy to sell. (Though it's a promise, not an event.)
  7. # [00:00] <gsnedders> TabAtkins: Currently they go to a data URI. Obv. would be more efficient to from TypedArray.
  8. # [00:00] <tantek> TabAtkins - I submit to the bikeshedding/reframing :)
  9. # [00:01] <gsnedders> s/Currently/Back when I looked at this, when I cared about Presto support in pdf.js,/
  10. # [00:01] * Krinkle is now known as Krinkle|detached
  11. # [00:01] <TabAtkins> Font.create() is the preferred naming for factories, right?
  12. # [00:01] <gsnedders> Why a factory, why not new Font?
  13. # [00:02] * tantek goes back to the standards factory.
  14. # [00:02] <TabAtkins> gsnedders: Need async.
  15. # [00:03] <TabAtkins> Though, hm, I'm going to be vending not-yet-completed Font obects anyway.
  16. # [00:03] <TabAtkins> So might as well vend one immediately from a constructor, and rely on the .ready() promise.
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  47. # [01:45] <gsnedders> Where do U+D800 and the like become U+FFFD now?
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  51. # [02:02] <gsnedders> I can't find anything, at all?
  52. # [02:03] <gsnedders> Did this get dropped with pre-processing the input stream?
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  54. # [02:04] <SimonSapin> gsnedders: in CSS? It’s in "consume an escaped code point"
  55. # [02:04] <gsnedders> SimonSapin: HTML.
  56. # [02:05] <gsnedders> I thought this would be assumed given #whatwg :P
  57. # [02:05] <SimonSapin> character encodings’ decoders never emit them
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  59. # [02:06] <SimonSapin> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/tokenization.html#consume-a-character-reference does the rest
  60. # [02:08] <gsnedders> SimonSapin: the encoding spec doesn't say that?
  61. # [02:08] <SimonSapin> gsnedders: not explicitly, but none of the decoders emit them
  62. # [02:09] <gsnedders> UTF-8 appears to be able to?
  63. # [02:09] <gsnedders> Unless I'm being blind?
  64. # [02:10] <gsnedders> And noncharacteres?
  65. # [02:10] <gsnedders> s/noncharacteres/perm. noncharacters/
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  68. # [02:12] <SimonSapin> "If byte is 0xED, set utf-8 upper boundary to 0x9F. " and the like prevent surrogates
  69. # [02:12] <gsnedders> Okay, I'd tried to quickly reason with that in my head but failed. :P
  70. # [02:13] <SimonSapin> u'\uD7FF'.encode('utf8') == b'\xed\x9f\xbf'
  71. # [02:14] <gsnedders> Well, that's a nice bug.
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  73. # [02:14] <gsnedders> Given that's never been legal.
  74. # [02:14] <SimonSapin> \uD800 would be \xed\xa0\x80
  75. # [02:14] <gsnedders> Oh, wait, U+d800 is the first.
  76. # [02:14] <gsnedders> Duh.
  77. # [02:14] <SimonSapin> which is forbidden by the "boundaries"
  78. # [02:14] <gsnedders> This is why I cannot read.
  79. # [02:14] <gsnedders> read?
  80. # [02:14] <gsnedders> reason.
  81. # [02:15] <gsnedders> I'm blaming jetlag for my inability to make sense, despite not really being jetlagged at all. :P
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  83. # [02:15] <SimonSapin> the decoders emit "scalar values" http://www.unicode.org/glossary/#unicode_scalar_value , which exclude surrogates but not other non-characters
  84. # [02:15] <gsnedders> Right.
  85. # [02:16] <gsnedders> So the former handling of permament non-characters is gone?
  86. # [02:16] <SimonSapin> I don’t know
  87. # [02:16] <SimonSapin> it’s not in the Encoding layer at least
  88. # [02:16] <gsnedders> Doesn't appear to be in HTML either.
  89. # [02:17] <gsnedders> Of that former section only U+0000 still exists, by virtue of it now being handled inline in the parser.
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  131. # [05:41] <gsnedders> So, the input stream is defined in terms of a series of the HTML speeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeec`.
  132. # [05:41] <gsnedders> Um, okay. Something went wrong there, and I couldn't stop that.
  133. # [05:45] <gsnedders> s/of .*$/of what the HTML spec defines a "Unicode codepoint" means — do we really want lone surrogates to be valid?/
  134. # [05:49] <zewt> valid where?
  135. # [05:55] <gsnedders> A valid HTML document.
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  137. # [05:57] <gsnedders> Or a valid fragment. Say from innerHTML.
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  139. # [05:58] <Hixie_> "valid" in what sense?
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  141. # [05:59] <gsnedders> Produces no parse-errors.
  142. # [05:59] <gsnedders> Which is a conformance requirement.
  143. # [05:59] <zewt> iirc you can't get lone surrogates in an HTML document, since the charset decoders won't emit them
  144. # [06:01] <gsnedders> zewt: Yes, you need to be going from an abstract source, like the innerHTML case from the DOM.
  145. # [06:02] <zewt> not sure what you're asking; you can insert them with script, but an actual html document won't generate them
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  147. # [06:05] <zewt> are you saying div.textContent = "\ud800" should throw an exception or something?
  148. # [06:05] <gsnedders> Right, but that doesn't exempt you from conformance, merely from conformance-checkers having to check it :P
  149. # [06:06] <gsnedders> No, be non-conforming and trigger a parse error.
  150. # [06:06] <zewt> "parse error" where?
  151. # [06:06] <zewt> i mean, an error in which parser?
  152. # [06:11] <gsnedders> zewt: Most browsers can report parse errors to dev tools
  153. # [06:11] <gsnedders> From the fragment case from innerHTML.
  154. # [06:12] <Hixie_> gsnedders: i don't think it cares about it in the parser, but there's separate conformance errors about there not being lone surrogates
  155. # [06:12] <gsnedders> Where?
  156. # [06:13] <Hixie_> a fascinating question
  157. # [06:13] <gsnedders> There *used* to be in the clause prohibiting perm. noncharacters
  158. # [06:14] <Hixie_> "Text nodes and attribute values must consist of Unicode characters, must not contain U+0000 characters, must not contain permanently undefined Unicode characters (noncharacters), and must not contain control characters other than space characters."
  159. # [06:14] <Hixie_> + "The term Unicode character is used to mean a Unicode scalar value (i.e. any Unicode code point that is not a surrogate code point)."
  160. # [06:19] <gsnedders> Where's that?
  161. # [06:19] <gsnedders> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/infrastructure.html#unicode-code-point gives the definition of codepoint differently?
  162. # [06:19] <Hixie_> what i pasted doesn't use the term "code point"
  163. # [06:20] <zewt> (it does a little)
  164. # [06:22] <gsnedders> Blarf!
  165. # [06:24] <gsnedders> Hixie_: So it's a conformance requirement yet not a parse error?
  166. # [06:24] <Hixie_> zewt: not normatively :-)
  167. # [06:25] <gsnedders> Hixie_: Although everything else in that list of what they cannot contain is a parse rror?
  168. # [06:25] <gsnedders> *error
  169. # [06:26] <gsnedders> AFAIK you removed it on grounds that encodings cannot output lone surrogates.
  170. # [06:27] <Hixie_> removed from the parser?
  171. # [06:29] <gsnedders> From the preprocessing the input stream clause that forbids null, noncharacters, etc.
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  254. # [11:12] <Ms2ger> Hm, the box at http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/workers.html#WorkerGlobalScope-partial lists a bug that has been closed for months
  255. # [11:13] * Ms2ger wonders who maintains that
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  270. # [12:44] <Ms2ger> Anyone around who understands the parser?
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  272. # [12:46] <Ms2ger> Maybe zcorpan
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  278. # [13:24] <zcorpan> Ms2ger: what parser?
  279. # [13:26] * zcorpan isn't actually here
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  328. # [19:00] <Ms2ger> zcorpan-not-here: html
  329. # [19:14] <jgraham> I love XHTML. I love the way I can get a parser error in gecko loading a page over a bad connection
  330. # [19:14] <tantek> nice
  331. # [19:14] * tantek presumes jgraham means "XML" in general
  332. # [19:15] <Ms2ger> jgraham, you know a thing or two about the html parser, right?
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  334. # [19:15] <jgraham> Well I suppose the other alternative is that the connection isn't the problem and the content is broken
  335. # [19:15] <Ms2ger> I can't figure out what "If the stack of open elements has a button element in scope, then run these substeps:" means
  336. # [19:15] <jgraham> But the fowc (Flash of Working Content) before the YSOD is... irritating
  337. # [19:16] <Ms2ger> "has a button element in scope" links to "The stack of open elements is said to have an element in scope when it has an element in the specific scope consisting of the following element types:"
  338. # [19:16] <jgraham> Ms2ger: What so you mean "means"?
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  340. # [19:16] <Ms2ger> Note no reference to the "button" part
  341. # [19:16] <Ms2ger> My stack is [html, body]
  342. # [19:16] <Ms2ger> Do I have a button element in scope?
  343. # [19:18] <jgraham> Ms2ger: No. The spec is confusing here because there are two different things
  344. # [19:19] <jgraham> The element that may or may not be in scope
  345. # [19:19] <jgraham> and the set of elements that delimit the scopes
  346. # [19:19] <jgraham> Having a button element in scope is not the same as having an element in button scope
  347. # [19:19] <Ms2ger> Right
  348. # [19:19] <Ms2ger> I suspected that was the case
  349. # [19:19] <jgraham> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/parsing.html#has-an-element-in-the-specific-scope
  350. # [19:20] <Ms2ger> But I can't find a clear definition of having a button element in scope
  351. # [19:20] <jgraham> "target node" in that algorithm is a html:button element
  352. # [19:20] <Ms2ger> (I can find a definition of "having an element in button scope", but I don't understand the definition)
  353. # [19:21] <jgraham> But I don't think it actually says that explicitly
  354. # [19:21] <jgraham> File a bug
  355. # [19:22] <Ms2ger> Filed https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23119
  356. # [19:22] <jgraham> I think instead of talking about "target node" it should be clear that it is an algorithm taking a list and an element name (or an namespace, name pair; I'm not sure)
  357. # [19:23] <jgraham> And say "if node is an /element/ element" or something
  358. # [19:23] <Ms2ger> This code has been implemented interoperably at least four times, and it still isn't clear \o/
  359. # [19:23] <jgraham> I think this part of the spec changed
  360. # [19:23] <Ms2ger> Yeah, it might have
  361. # [19:23] <jgraham> But the namespace part was never clear
  362. # [19:23] <Ms2ger> Okay, that helps
  363. # [19:23] * Ms2ger goes back to reviewing this one-line test case
  364. # [19:24] <jgraham> In general it would be good if Hixie was explict for each algorithm what the imputs and ouptputs are
  365. # [19:24] <jgraham> Even if it meant having some special convention to represent it
  366. # [19:25] <Ms2ger> (And I've consumed the first token, yay)
  367. # [19:26] <Ms2ger> Also, the order of the switch cases in the parser seems to be random
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  369. # [19:28] <jgraham> ElementInScope :: Stack Element -> LocalName -> [LocalName] -> Bool
  370. # [19:29] <Ms2ger> Or ElementInScope :: Stack Element -> (LocalName, NS) -> [(LocalName, NS)] -> Bool?
  371. # [19:29] <jgraham> Right
  372. # [19:30] <jgraham> (dunno if tuples can be represented like that in Haskell, but this is at best pseudo-Haskell)
  373. # [19:30] <Ms2ger> Yeah, that's fine
  374. # [19:30] * Ms2ger wrote some Haskell this year
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  376. # [19:31] <Ms2ger> (Oh, the list is even explicitly [(LocalName, NS)] now
  377. # [19:31] * jgraham should probably learn enough to do something useful
  378. # [19:32] <Ms2ger> I dunno
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  384. # [20:03] <Ms2ger> gsnedders, land https://critic.hoppipolla.co.uk/r/193 already :)
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  403. # [21:42] <Yuhong> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6307219
  404. # [21:43] <Yuhong> Someone wishes that conforming HTML required closing tags.
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  441. # Session Close: Sun Sep 01 00:00:00 2013

The end :)