/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2013-09-04 / end

Options:

1. # Session Start: Wed Sep 04 00:00:00 2013
2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
3. # [00:00] <TabAtkins> This is a normalization issue, not an encoding issue.
4. # [00:00] <TabAtkins> zcorpan: Dunno.
5. # [00:00] * zcorpan checks
6. # [00:00] <TabAtkins> SimonSapin: The two characters A + combining acute accent and the single character Á are the same grapheme cluster, but they're different sets of code points and code units.
7. # [00:01] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: I understand that. But I think CSS can get away with considering them different
8. # [00:01] <zcorpan> huh. blink uppercases the å in http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/2505
9. # [00:02] <zcorpan> i guess that's in .nodeName rather than the parser
10. # [00:02] <SimonSapin> i.e. ignore abstract characters and normalization, only compare code points
11. # [00:03] <TabAtkins> SimonSapin: Hm, I suppose it could. Just treat CSS and JS as black-box sources of codepoint lists.
12. # [00:04] * Joins: jernoble|laptop (~jernoble@17.212.155.144)
13. # [00:05] * Joins: marcosc_ (~marcosc@bl8-174-239.dsl.telepac.pt)
14. # [00:05] <TabAtkins> In that case it's not actually an issue.
15. # [00:05] * Quits: zkis (~zkis@87-95-11-9.bb.dnainternet.fi) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
16. # [00:07] <zcorpan> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/2507
17. # [00:07] <zcorpan> at least gecko and blink don't normalize
18. # [00:09] * Quits: AladinBouzerd (~aladinbou@41.108.21.63) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
19. # [00:09] <zcorpan> css could do what js does and say "source text is assumed to be NFC without checking that it is"
20. # [00:11] <TabAtkins> I wish I could go back in time and make the unicode consortium exist earlier, and only produce utf-8 as a valid encoding.
21. # [00:12] <Hixie_> rniwa: i don't understand why, in your proposal, A.js executes immediately before B.js which executes immediately C.js in use case U, but in use case S, A.js executes asap when B is needed, and B.js only executes when it can after A.js is run.
22. # [00:12] <TabAtkins> Also, not do the weird thing where there are 17 planes, so you need a 21st bit to encode only that last plane.
23. # [00:12] <TabAtkins> I mean, 16 or 32 or gtfo.
24. # [00:13] <rniwa> Hixie_: sorry, there is a typo there :(
25. # [00:14] * Quits: lmclister (~lmclister@192.150.10.209) (Quit: lmclister)
26. # [00:15] <Hixie_> rniwa: i don't really understand how your proposal differs from the one in my last e-mail, other than renamign "whenneeded" to "prefetch" and dropping the =jit feature.
27. # [00:16] <rniwa> Hixie_: so my "prefix" behaves like whenneeded=jit
28. # [00:16] <rniwa> prefetch*
29. # [00:16] <rniwa> Hixie_: or rather a hybrid of whenneeded=true & hit
30. # [00:16] <rniwa> Hixie_: jit*
31. # [00:17] <Hixie_> they seem rather different... one executes asap, the other as late as possible. how can you do a hybrid without losing one or the other?
32. # [00:17] <rniwa> Hixie_: i'm dropping the ability to execute asap since that can be done by async=true if i'm not mistaken
33. # [00:19] <Hixie_> rniwa: how do you do that while still not executing asap if you're not needed?
34. # [00:21] <rniwa> Hixie_: which use case is that?
35. # [00:21] * Quits: ap (~ap@17.202.47.229) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
36. # [00:21] * Joins: yoshu (~josh@174-21-234-55.tukw.qwest.net)
37. # [00:21] <Hixie_> all of them except U, basically
38. # [00:22] * Joins: ap (~ap@17.202.47.229)
39. # [00:22] <Hixie_> you don't know how long scripts will take to run, so you don't usually want to wait if you know you need to run it
40. # [00:22] <Hixie_> even if the relevant dependency is itself still loading
41. # [00:23] <zewt> "U" is the only use case for "jit", iirc
42. # [00:23] <Hixie_> right
43. # [00:23] <zewt> oops, never finished my last mail to that thread
44. # [00:23] <rniwa> Hixie_: why doesn't async: true work in that case?
45. # [00:25] <rniwa> Hixie_: say you have a script a.js and another script b.js that depends on a.js. then all you need is <script src="a.js" async></script><script src="b.js" needs="a.js" async></script>
46. # [00:25] <Hixie_> rniwa: take use case S. two scripts, second depends on the first. at time t=1, you have downloaded A.js, but still don't have B.js. User indicates he needs B.js's services, so the script marks B.js as needed.
47. # [00:25] <Hixie_> rniwa: now how do you ensure that A.js doesn't run until B.js is needed, but does run before B.js is downloaded, since B.js is being slow?
48. # [00:25] <gavin> TabAtkins: should be pacific time?
49. # [00:26] <Hixie_> rniwa: if you're parsing <script src="a.js" async></script>ZZZ<script src="b.js" needs="a.js" async></script> and while parsing "ZZZ" you get a.js down and are ready to run it, how do you know _not_ to run it?
50. # [00:26] <rniwa> <script src="A.js" prefetch></script><script src="B.js" needs="A.js" prefetch></script>
51. # [00:26] <TabAtkins> gavin: Okay. Mind indicating that somewhere on the page?
52. # [00:26] <Hixie_> rniwa: why won't that wait until B.js is ready to run?
53. # [00:27] <rniwa> Hixie_: it will.
54. # [00:27] <gavin> TabAtkins: I will try to remember. might wokr better if you email me :)
55. # [00:27] <rniwa> Hixie_: i don't understand. if B.js is needed, then we need to have downloaded both A.js and B.js
56. # [00:27] <Hixie_> rniwa: i don't want it to
57. # [00:27] <Hixie_> rniwa: B.js might still be downloading.
58. # [00:27] <Hixie_> rniwa: but if B is needed, then you generally want to execute A.js
59. # [00:28] <TabAtkins> gavin: kk
60. # [00:28] * Quits: jernoble|laptop (~jernoble@17.212.155.144) (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com)
61. # [00:28] <TabAtkins> gavin: Dunno your email address.
62. # [00:29] <rniwa> Hixie_: so are you saying that in your example for CMS plugin 1, when you call B.execute();
63. # [00:29] <rniwa> Hixie_: B.js might be still downloading?
64. # [00:29] <Hixie_> right
65. # [00:30] <rniwa> I see. Thanks for the clarification.
66. # [00:31] * Quits: marcosc_ (~marcosc@bl8-174-239.dsl.telepac.pt) (Remote host closed the connection)
67. # [00:32] <rniwa> Hixie_: I have somewhat similar use case for U then.
68. # [00:32] * Joins: marcosc (~marcosc@bl8-174-239.dsl.telepac.pt)
69. # [00:32] <rniwa> Hixie_: which is that sometimes you want to execute the script immediately only if it's available in the cache
70. # [00:32] <rniwa> if not, then you want to delay it until more important assets such as images are loaded
71. # [00:33] <gavin> TabAtkins: it's at the bottom of http://gavinsharp.com/
72. # [00:33] <zewt> FWIW, my instinct for U was "it's not the job of a dependancy management system", and should either be added and discussed separately--it seems to bloat this discussion a bit
73. # [00:34] <Hixie_> rniwa: if you have a new use case, please mail the list :-)
74. # [00:35] <rniwa> Hixie_: can't U be addressed by looking for load event on each script?
75. # [00:35] <rniwa> Hixie_: or maybe by exposing readyState?
76. # [00:35] <rniwa> Hixie_: i'm inclined to ditch the use case U for those alternatives...
77. # [00:35] <rniwa> but I guess it'll be nice to address that declaratively as well.
78. # [00:36] <Hixie_> well like i said earlier, if it's something we don't want to address, that's a different argument
79. # [00:36] * Quits: marcosc (~marcosc@bl8-174-239.dsl.telepac.pt) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
80. # [00:38] * Joins: birtles (~chatzilla@61-121-216-2.bitcat.net)
81. # [00:39] * Quits: Smylers (~smylers@host86-156-211-142.range86-156.btcentralplus.com) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
82. # [00:40] * Joins: hasather (~hasather@cm-84.210.170.16.getinternet.no)
83. # [00:41] * Krinkle|detached is now known as Krinkle
84. # [00:42] * Quits: annevk (~annevk@2.31.25.182) (Remote host closed the connection)
85. # [00:42] * Joins: annevk (~annevk@2.31.25.182)
86. # [00:44] * Quits: hasather (~hasather@cm-84.210.170.16.getinternet.no) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
87. # [00:47] * Quits: annevk (~annevk@2.31.25.182) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
88. # [00:47] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@80.232.109.46) (Remote host closed the connection)
89. # [00:48] * Joins: Smylers (~smylers@host81-132-95-22.range81-132.btcentralplus.com)
90. # [00:49] * heycam|away is now known as heycam
91. # [00:55] * Quits: garciawebdev (~garciaweb@11-223-235-201.fibertel.com.ar) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
92. # [00:56] * Joins: garciawebdev (~garciaweb@181.83.6.220)
93. # [01:00] * Joins: jdaggett (~jdaggett@103.5.142.4)
94. # [01:05] * Joins: ehsan (~ehsan@66.207.208.102)
95. # [01:10] * Quits: ehsan (~ehsan@66.207.208.102) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
96. # [01:11] * Quits: garciawebdev (~garciaweb@181.83.6.220) (Remote host closed the connection)
97. # [01:11] * Joins: garciawebdev (~garciaweb@181.83.6.220)
98. # [01:16] * Quits: garciawebdev (~garciaweb@181.83.6.220) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
99. # [01:18] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@80.232.109.46)
100. # [01:26] * Quits: decotii (~decotii@hq.croscon.com) (Quit: Leaving)
101. # [01:30] * Joins: lmcliste_ (~lmclister@ip-64-134-222-87.public.wayport.net)
102. # [01:32] <MikeSmith> heads up: starting at 18:30 UTC, the W3C Systems Team
103. # [01:32] <MikeSmith> will upgrade Bugzilla to the latest version 4.4. This process is
104. # [01:32] <MikeSmith> expected to take less than an hour. While the upgrade is underway, it
105. # [01:32] <MikeSmith> will not be possible to view or update bugs."
106. # [01:32] <MikeSmith> Thursday, 5 September
107. # [01:35] * Joins: jreading (~Adium@ip98-169-193-48.dc.dc.cox.net)
108. # [01:37] * Joins: mven (~mven@ip68-224-15-53.lv.lv.cox.net)
109. # [01:40] <gsnedders> jgraham: Yeah, indeed. GitHub sucks. We need shared work branches (guess we could just use some on the w3c org repo).
110. # [01:40] <gsnedders> jgraham: (Though I couldn't push to them, AFAIK)
111. # [01:42] <MikeSmith> what's a shared work branch?
112. # [01:42] <MikeSmith> or what's different about it than a normal remote branch?
113. # [01:43] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: Well, multiple committers
114. # [01:48] * Quits: yorick (~yorick@oftn/member/yorick) (Remote host closed the connection)
115. # [01:48] * Quits: jreading (~Adium@ip98-169-193-48.dc.dc.cox.net) (Quit: Leaving.)
116. # [01:52] * Quits: jdaggett (~jdaggett@103.5.142.4) (Quit: jdaggett)
117. # [01:52] * Joins: scor (~scor@drupal.org/user/52142/view)
118. # [01:55] * Quits: jacobolus (~jacobolus@70-36-196-50.dsl.static.sonic.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
119. # [01:57] <TabAtkins> Do I have to write something special to say that an IDL method takes a TypedArray or a TypedArrayView, or is that implicit in saying TypedArray?
120. # [01:58] <TabAtkins> Or maybe there's a typedef living somewhere that means that.
121. # [01:58] <heycam> Uint32Array is a "typed array view" interface
122. # [01:58] * Joins: jdaggett (~jdaggett@103.5.142.4)
123. # [01:59] * Joins: marcosc_ (~marcosc@bl8-174-239.dsl.telepac.pt)
124. # [01:59] * Quits: jdaggett (~jdaggett@103.5.142.4) (Client Quit)
125. # [02:01] <TabAtkins> heycam: Right. But there's no reason for a method taking a TypedArray to not take a Uint32Array, right? So is there an easy way to just say "any of those typed array things"?
126. # [02:02] <heycam> what is "TypedArray"?
127. # [02:02] <heycam> the same as "any of those typed array things"?
128. # [02:02] <TabAtkins> sorry, ArrayBuffer
129. # [02:02] <heycam> ah
130. # [02:02] <TabAtkins> Dunno why my fingers kept typing TypedArray.
131. # [02:03] * Joins: jdaggett (~jdaggett@103.5.142.4)
132. # [02:03] <zewt> tab: that API makes me sad, such a mess
133. # [02:03] <Hixie_> what isn't
134. # [02:03] <zewt> an unexcusable mess, as far as the distinction goes
135. # [02:03] * Joins: jreading (~Adium@ip98-169-193-48.dc.dc.cox.net)
136. # [02:04] <heycam> TabAtkins, I don't think there's an existing typedef for "an untyped ArrayBuffer or a specific typed array type"
137. # [02:04] <heycam> if that's what you're after
138. # [02:04] <TabAtkins> Yeah, that's what I'm after.
139. # [02:04] <TabAtkins> I guess someone needs to do a "typedef BinaryData (ArrayBuffer or ...);" somewhere.
140. # [02:05] <TabAtkins> Because, again, there's definitely no reason that something taking an ArrayBuffer shouldn't be able to accept a JS Struct, once they finish speccing that stuff.
141. # [02:05] <TabAtkins> Frex, you could set up a WOFF file as a somewhat-complex JS binary-data Struct, and you should be able to pass that directly to the FontFace constructor I'm writing.
142. # [02:06] <zewt> all of the views should have just been subclasses of ArrayBuffer ... iirc, the only thing preventing doing that now is some difference in how slice() works, or something like that
143. # [02:06] * Quits: ap (~ap@17.202.47.229) (Quit: ap)
144. # [02:07] <TabAtkins> zewt: You mean that .slice() works different on an ArrayBuffer versus a view?
145. # [02:09] <TabAtkins> .slice() doesn't seem to be defined on ArrayBufferViews at all - they have .subarray() instead, which is different (a sliced view, rather than a slice of the data).
146. # [02:12] * Quits: jsbell (jsbell@nat/google/x-bdnkjegeavkxxkcc) (Quit: There's no place like home...)
147. # [02:15] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@nat/mozilla/x-nkgcnccxfegufghp)
148. # [02:17] * Joins: jreading1 (~Adium@ip98-169-193-48.dc.dc.cox.net)
149. # [02:17] * Quits: jreading (~Adium@ip98-169-193-48.dc.dc.cox.net) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
150. # [02:18] <MikeSmith> earthquake in tokyo just now
151. # [02:21] * Quits: yoshu (~josh@174-21-234-55.tukw.qwest.net) (Quit: yoshu)
152. # [02:24] <zewt> great, now gmail is intentionally ignoring what I tell it to search for too
153. # [02:24] <zewt> apparently all search engines from now on will treat the user like an imbecile, and assume search queries are just vague suggestions
154. # [02:24] * Quits: jernoble (~jernoble@17.212.152.13) (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com)
155. # [02:24] * Quits: marcosc_ (~marcosc@bl8-174-239.dsl.telepac.pt) (Remote host closed the connection)
156. # [02:25] * Joins: marcosc (~marcosc@bl8-174-239.dsl.telepac.pt)
157. # [02:27] <TabAtkins> zewt: If you saw the average search query...
158. # [02:27] <zewt> how about: don't treat me like an idiot (and cripple my tools) because other people are idiots
159. # [02:27] <zewt> </rant>
160. # [02:28] * Quits: jreading1 (~Adium@ip98-169-193-48.dc.dc.cox.net) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
161. # [02:29] <zewt> oh, i think i remember what I was thinking about
162. # [02:30] * Quits: Smylers (~smylers@host81-132-95-22.range81-132.btcentralplus.com) (Quit: Leaving.)
163. # [02:30] * Quits: marcosc (~marcosc@bl8-174-239.dsl.telepac.pt) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
164. # [02:30] <zewt> new UInt8Array(buffer) creates a copy, where it should have just created a view over the buffer
165. # [02:32] * Joins: jreading (~Adium@ip98-169-193-48.dc.dc.cox.net)
166. # [02:32] * Parts: jreading (~Adium@ip98-169-193-48.dc.dc.cox.net)
167. # [02:32] <zewt> and new UInt8Array(buffer, offset, length) does create a view--which alongside the above, is confusing as hell
168. # [02:32] <zewt> but the mantra of web apis: oh well, too late
169. # [02:33] <zewt> (not entirely sure that's what I was thinking about, but no real point in digging around to find it)
170. # [02:36] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@nat/mozilla/x-nkgcnccxfegufghp) (Quit: tantek)
171. # [02:37] <zewt> oh, lovely gmail bug
172. # [02:37] <zewt> i see an empty editing reply in a thread I'm reading; I discard it (assuming it was a temporary reply, which I often create before merging replies); then I go "hold on", hit undo discard, and surprise: there was a whole reply in there
173. # [02:38] <TabAtkins> zewt: Aw jeez, that's a really dumb behavior.
174. # [02:38] <TabAtkins> Like, crazy stupid.
175. # [02:38] <zewt> the arraybuffer thing or the gmail thing? (heh)
176. # [02:38] <zewt> (answer: yes)
177. # [02:38] <TabAtkins> The arraybuffer thing.
178. # [02:41] * Joins: yoshu (~josh@c-50-132-7-247.hsd1.wa.comcast.net)
179. # [02:41] <TabAtkins> Am I missing something, or is http://dom.spec.whatwg.org/#error-names-0 missing TypeError and RangeError?
180. # [02:45] <zewt> two simple changes would have simplified typed arrays to a stupid degree: get rid of ArrayBuffer entirely (return Uint8Array from APIs, don't have a typeless class at all) and fix the ctor problem (to make it easy to cast Uint8Array to whatever you need)
181. # [02:46] <zewt> i think i suggested that and the response was something like "some Java API did that and it caused performance problems so it's a bad idea" o_O
182. # [02:46] * heycam is now known as heycam|away
183. # [02:48] <TabAtkins> That was indeed the response. I didn't understand it well enough to really figure out what the issue was.
184. # [02:48] <zewt> java and javascript have so little in common, all I can say is o_O
185. # [02:48] <TabAtkins> Or no, that was about endianness.
186. # [02:49] <zewt> (wish I could remember where that discussion was, if only to verify my recollection, but I have no idea)
187. # [02:49] <TabAtkins> It wasn't a syntax issue, so Java vs Javascript is fairly irrelevant to the point.
188. # [02:49] <zewt> err, java and javascript's differences are much deeper than syntax
189. # [02:49] <zewt> probably the only thing they have in common is GC
190. # [02:49] <TabAtkins> None of which are particularly relevant to the treatment of binary data.
191. # [02:50] <zewt> if somebody saw performance issues with returning a uint8_t* and then casting it to uint32_t* in Java, that doesn't inform JS API development at all
192. # [02:51] <TabAtkins> It was something about processors and memory pipelines or something like that. Something pretty language-agnostic.
193. # [02:52] <zewt> maybe it was a different conversation, since in the one I had I don't recall any technical followups
194. # [02:52] * Quits: smaug____ (~chatzilla@a91-154-47-240.elisa-laajakaista.fi) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
195. # [02:52] <TabAtkins> Doesn't mean it was validly generalizable - it may have been something more API-specific, or dated. But it wasn't *language*-specific.
196. # [02:52] <TabAtkins> Kenneth Russell was the one talking about it.
197. # [02:52] <TabAtkins> And Gregg Tavares.
198. # [02:53] * Quits: lmcliste_ (~lmclister@ip-64-134-222-87.public.wayport.net) (Quit: lmcliste_)
199. # [02:54] <zewt> nothing in my experience would explain a processor-level performance difference between "return an object that accesses a void* as 8-bit unsigned ints, then create an object that accesses the same void* as 32-bit unsigned ints" and "return an opaque object holding a buffer, then create an object that accesses the buffer as 32-bit unsigned ints"
200. # [02:55] <TabAtkins> The only Java-based performance argument I recall was one about endianness. I don't really remember one about ArrayBuffer vs ArrayBufferView.
201. # [02:55] <TabAtkins> If I pass a DOMString representing a url to a function, does it make sense to parse the url and reject it if there's a parse error?
202. # [02:55] <TabAtkins> Or should I be forgiving and just work with whatever the URL parser spits out?
203. # [02:55] <zewt> i think i remember that conversation (but it's a different one, or at least a different subargument)
204. # [02:55] <TabAtkins> Ah, then I dunno what we're talking about. ^_^
205. # [02:56] <zewt> where we were saying "having UInt32Array be the platform endianness is interop death and don't do it"
206. # [02:58] <zewt> TabAtkins: copy whatever new WebSocket(url) does?
207. # [02:58] <zewt> (was going to say "xhr", but thought better of that)
208. # [02:58] <TabAtkins> Good point.
209. # [02:59] <TabAtkins> Throw a SyntaxError and abort. Can do.
210. # [03:04] * Quits: jwalden (~waldo@nat/mozilla/x-hymmpbclprcxwdeu) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87-7.1450hg.fc19 [XULRunner 22.0/20130701153714])
211. # [03:13] * Joins: jernoble (~jernoble@76.74.153.41)
212. # [03:19] * Joins: marcosc (~marcosc@bl8-174-239.dsl.telepac.pt)
213. # [03:21] * Joins: kuatsure (~kuatsure@cpe-184-59-100-169.cinci.res.rr.com)
214. # [03:21] * Quits: jdaggett (~jdaggett@103.5.142.4) (Quit: jdaggett)
215. # [03:24] * Quits: mven (~mven@ip68-224-15-53.lv.lv.cox.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
216. # [03:29] * Joins: mven (~mven@ip68-224-15-53.lv.lv.cox.net)
217. # [03:32] * Quits: jernoble (~jernoble@76.74.153.41) (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
218. # [03:37] * Quits: reyre (~reyre@CPE7cb21b1e2cf4-CM7cb21b1e2cf1.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
219. # [03:41] <zewt> now there's somebody on www-dom who's so important he's sending all his mails in Gigantic Red
220. # [03:45] <TabAtkins> annevk: How do I deal with a response once it's been returned by Fetch?
221. # [03:45] <TabAtkins> Just check if it returned a code of 200 and a non-null body?
222. # [03:45] * Quits: marcosc (~marcosc@bl8-174-239.dsl.telepac.pt) (Remote host closed the connection)
223. # [03:46] * Quits: scor (~scor@drupal.org/user/52142/view) (Quit: scor)
224. # [03:48] <TabAtkins> (I presume redirects are automatically handled for me and I wont' see them, unless I've set the manual redirects flag.)
225. # [03:50] * Quits: yoshu (~josh@c-50-132-7-247.hsd1.wa.comcast.net) (Quit: yoshu)
226. # [03:57] * Joins: jdaggett (~jdaggett@y230006.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp)
227. # [03:57] * Joins: reyre (~reyre@CPE7cb21b1e2cf4-CM7cb21b1e2cf1.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com)
228. # [04:00] <TabAtkins> annevk: If it helps, I'm doing a synchronous fetch, because I'm already in an async portion of the algorithm, and it seemed like that was easiest.
229. # [04:14] * Joins: Goplat (~goplat@reactos/developer/Goplat)
230. # [04:26] * Joins: Zauberfisch__ (~Zauberfis@2a01:4f8:100:73c3::3)
231. # [04:28] * Joins: roc (~chatzilla@60.234.66.20)
232. # [04:30] * Quits: Zauberfisch_ (~Zauberfis@2a01:4f8:100:73c3::3) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
233. # [04:33] * Joins: alyssonfranklin (~Alysson@186.204.183.233)
234. # [04:42] * Krinkle is now known as Krinkle|detached
235. # [05:03] * Joins: scor (~scor@drupal.org/user/52142/view)
236. # [05:06] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@ip-64-134-235-173.public.wayport.net)
237. # [05:17] * Quits: scor (~scor@drupal.org/user/52142/view) (Quit: scor)
238. # [05:25] * heycam|away is now known as heycam
239. # [05:28] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@ip-64-134-235-173.public.wayport.net) (Quit: tantek)
240. # [05:33] * Joins: marcosc (~marcosc@bl8-174-239.dsl.telepac.pt)
241. # [05:47] * Quits: birtles (~chatzilla@61-121-216-2.bitcat.net) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
242. # [05:51] * Joins: birtles (~chatzilla@61-121-216-2.bitcat.net)
243. # [05:53] <zewt> also cool google joins the ranks of "you gave us your email address, and we've decided it's okay to use it for ads"
244. # [05:53] <zewt> "Your Google Wallet has exciting new updates", as if I've ever used "google wallet" (much less opted into ads)
245. # [05:55] * Quits: ivan\ (~ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
246. # [05:55] * Quits: Krinkle|detached (~Krinkle@wikimedia/Krinkle) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
247. # [05:55] * Quits: bzed (~bzed@devel.recluse.de) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
248. # [05:56] * Quits: ryuone (~ryuone@133.242.16.101) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
249. # [05:56] * Joins: ryuone (~ryuone@133.242.16.101)
250. # [05:56] * Joins: ivan\ (~ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001)
251. # [05:58] * Quits: marcosc (~marcosc@bl8-174-239.dsl.telepac.pt) (Remote host closed the connection)
252. # [05:59] * Joins: marcosc (~marcosc@bl8-174-239.dsl.telepac.pt)
253. # [06:04] * Quits: marcosc (~marcosc@bl8-174-239.dsl.telepac.pt) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
254. # [06:07] * Quits: rniwa (~rniwa@17.212.154.114) (Quit: rniwa)
255. # [06:09] * Joins: Guest37224 (~Krinkle@ec2-50-112-50-28.us-west-2.compute.amazonaws.com)
256. # [06:10] * Joins: TuRnaD0 (~Thunderbi@x1-6-e0-46-9a-1e-fe-ca.k368.webspeed.dk)
257. # [06:13] * Joins: jernoble (~jernoble@199-188-193-107.PUBLIC.monkeybrains.net)
258. # [06:30] * Quits: jernoble (~jernoble@199-188-193-107.PUBLIC.monkeybrains.net) (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
259. # [06:32] * Joins: jernoble (~jernoble@199-188-193-107.PUBLIC.monkeybrains.net)
260. # [06:37] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@50-0-164-83.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net)
261. # [06:57] * Quits: kuatsure (~kuatsure@cpe-184-59-100-169.cinci.res.rr.com) (Quit: zzz)
262. # [07:01] * Joins: plutoniix (~plutoniix@210.213.57.70)
263. # [07:03] * Joins: marcosc (~marcosc@bl8-174-239.dsl.telepac.pt)
264. # [07:17] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@50-0-164-83.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net) (Quit: tantek)
265. # [07:30] * Quits: marcosc (~marcosc@bl8-174-239.dsl.telepac.pt) (Remote host closed the connection)
266. # [07:30] * Joins: marcosc (~marcosc@bl8-174-239.dsl.telepac.pt)
267. # [07:35] * Quits: marcosc (~marcosc@bl8-174-239.dsl.telepac.pt) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
268. # [07:37] * Joins: bacilla (~karolis@unaffiliated/velkam)
269. # [07:40] * Quits: TuRnaD0 (~Thunderbi@x1-6-e0-46-9a-1e-fe-ca.k368.webspeed.dk) (Remote host closed the connection)
270. # [08:03] * Joins: SteveF_ (~chatzilla@cpc3-nmal20-2-0-cust916.19-2.cable.virginmedia.com)
271. # [08:03] * Joins: zkis (~zkis@87-95-11-9.bb.dnainternet.fi)
272. # [08:06] * Joins: zdobersek (~zdobersek@cpe-77.38.31.63.cable.t-1.si)
273. # [08:15] * diffalot is now known as diffalot-away
274. # [08:17] * Quits: diffalot-away (~papyroman@unaffiliated/papyromancer) (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in)
275. # [08:19] * Joins: diffalot-away (~papyroman@c-76-107-128-104.hsd1.ms.comcast.net)
276. # [08:19] * diffalot-away is now known as diffalot
277. # [08:23] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@80.232.109.46) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
278. # [08:29] * Quits: diffalot (~papyroman@c-76-107-128-104.hsd1.ms.comcast.net) (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in)
279. # [08:30] * Joins: eric_carlson_ (~eric@17.212.152.104)
280. # [08:31] * Joins: sedovsek (~robert@lk.84.20.237.54.dc.cable.static.lj-kabel.net)
281. # [08:31] * Joins: jonlee (~jonlee@17.212.153.19)
282. # [08:31] * Joins: diffalot-away (~papyroman@c-76-107-128-104.hsd1.ms.comcast.net)
283. # [08:31] * diffalot-away is now known as diffalot
284. # [08:32] * Quits: eric_carlson (~eric@17.212.152.104) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
285. # [08:32] * eric_carlson_ is now known as eric_carlson
286. # [08:33] * Quits: jonlee|afk (~jonlee@17.212.153.19) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
287. # [08:33] * Quits: Goplat (~goplat@reactos/developer/Goplat) (Remote host closed the connection)
288. # [08:34] * Quits: roc (~chatzilla@60.234.66.20) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
289. # [08:38] <TabAtkins> zewt: You should use Wallet - it's a lot more convenient than PayPay for sending people money.
290. # [08:38] * Joins: annevk (~annevk@2.31.25.182)
291. # [08:39] <annevk> TabAtkins: so yes, don't do normalization in CSS. Just say people ought to normalize, but don't require it from implementations. Deal in 16-bit code units as the whole thing bottoms out to JavaScript in the end...
292. # [08:40] <annevk> TabAtkins: TypeError and RangeError are defined by JavaScript, not DOM (we need to revise DOMException in some way still, haven't figured out how)
293. # [08:40] <TabAtkins> annevk: Ah, the error thing is confusing. Perhaps a note in the Event Names section is warranted? I'll file a bug.
294. # [08:40] <annevk> TabAtkins: so there's a bug on moving the whole error thing over to Web IDL already
295. # [08:41] <TabAtkins> Ah, then I'll just leave it alone I suppose.
296. # [08:41] <annevk> TabAtkins: as for something accepting bytes, just use ArrayBuffer for now and we'll think of something better once ES6 has assimilated the whole bunch
297. # [08:42] <TabAtkins> I just did a typedef for (ArrayBuffer or ArrayBufferView).
298. # [08:42] * Quits: sedovsek (~robert@lk.84.20.237.54.dc.cable.static.lj-kabel.net) (Quit: sedovsek)
299. # [08:43] * Joins: sedovsek (~robert@lk.84.20.237.54.dc.cable.static.lj-kabel.net)
300. # [08:43] <annevk> TabAtkins: yeah I guess, one technical problem with that is that ArrayBuffer/ArrayBufferView are no longer IDL-defined
301. # [08:43] <TabAtkins> Meh.
302. # [08:44] * Joins: rego (~rego@231.193.27.77.dynamic.mundo-r.com)
303. # [08:48] <annevk> I guess I should file a bug on IDL for that too, though I suspect heycam might wanna wait for ES6 with that...
304. # [08:48] * Quits: zkis (~zkis@87-95-11-9.bb.dnainternet.fi) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
305. # [08:48] <heycam> are they going in to the ES spec in the ES6 timeframe?
306. # [08:48] <heycam> (not that I know what that timeframe is)
307. # [08:54] * Joins: tobie_ (~tobielang@col74-1-88-183-112-72.fbx.proxad.net)
308. # [08:54] * Quits: ImBcmDth (~Jon@oftn/member/ImBcmDth) (Disconnected by services)
309. # [08:54] * Joins: ImBcmDth (~Jon@oftn/member/ImBcmDth)
310. # [08:56] <TabAtkins> annevk: So what about my last question, regarding what to do with a response returned by fetch?
311. # [08:56] <annevk> heycam: yeah, timeframe is end-of-year plus a year to fix bugs I think
312. # [08:56] <annevk> TabAtkins: we generally don't look at the response code at all, except for redirects which Fetch handles
313. # [08:57] <heycam> ok
314. # [08:57] <annevk> TabAtkins: so you either get something back which you decode or you get a network error
315. # [08:57] <TabAtkins> Okay, so I just trust that if I got a response rather than an error, I can read the body for the data?
316. # [08:57] <TabAtkins> Ooh, I have to decode it now?
317. # [08:57] <annevk> TabAtkins: that's how <img>, <script>, et al work, yes
318. # [08:57] <annevk> TabAtkins: dunno, depends on what you're fetching :)
319. # [08:58] <TabAtkins> Oh, right, just font data, so no text decoding necessary.
320. # [08:58] <TabAtkins> Okay.
321. # [08:58] <TabAtkins> This would be useful information in Fetch. ^_^
322. # [08:58] <annevk> TabAtkins: just font decoding then :)
323. # [08:58] <annevk> TabAtkins: file a bug?
324. # [08:58] * annevk is still at the stage where he tries to make Fetch work for the entire platform
325. # [08:59] * Joins: mitemitreski (~mitemitre@212.120.17.179)
326. # [09:02] <annevk> heycam: they're in http://people.mozilla.org/~jorendorff/es6-draft.html fwiw
327. # [09:07] * Quits: Lachy (~textual@cm-84.215.104.248.getinternet.no) (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com)
328. # [09:12] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@80.232.109.46)
329. # [09:16] * Quits: sedovsek (~robert@lk.84.20.237.54.dc.cable.static.lj-kabel.net) (Quit: sedovsek)
330. # [09:19] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@80.232.109.46) (Remote host closed the connection)
331. # [09:20] * Joins: tobie__ (~tobielang@col74-1-88-183-112-72.fbx.proxad.net)
332. # [09:20] * Quits: tobie_ (~tobielang@col74-1-88-183-112-72.fbx.proxad.net) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
333. # [09:20] * Quits: ryuone (~ryuone@133.242.16.101) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
334. # [09:22] * Quits: lilmonkey` (~colin@pdpc/supporter/professional/riven) (Read error: No buffer space available)
335. # [09:22] * Joins: ryuone (~ryuone@133.242.16.101)
336. # [09:22] * Joins: lilmonkey (~colin@5469E6D4.cm-12-2d.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
337. # [09:22] * Quits: lilmonkey (~colin@5469E6D4.cm-12-2d.dynamic.ziggo.nl) (Changing host)
338. # [09:22] * Joins: lilmonkey (~colin@pdpc/supporter/professional/riven)
339. # [09:26] * Quits: kborchers (~kborchers@unaffiliated/kborchers) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
340. # [09:27] * Joins: marcosc (~marcosc@bl8-174-239.dsl.telepac.pt)
341. # [09:32] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@94.234.170.58)
342. # [09:32] * Joins: kborchers (~kborchers@unaffiliated/kborchers)
343. # [09:33] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@94.234.170.58) (Remote host closed the connection)
344. # [09:33] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@94.234.170.58)
345. # [09:34] * Joins: Lachy (~textual@213.166.174.2)
346. # [09:36] * Joins: benbarnett (~Adium@46-64-77-112.zone15.bethere.co.uk)
347. # [09:36] * Quits: benbarnett (~Adium@46-64-77-112.zone15.bethere.co.uk) (Client Quit)
348. # [09:37] * Joins: baku (~baku@2-236-39-253.ip231.fastwebnet.it)
349. # [09:38] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@94.234.170.58) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
350. # [09:40] * Quits: jernoble (~jernoble@199-188-193-107.PUBLIC.monkeybrains.net) (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
351. # [09:48] * Joins: benbarnett (~Adium@46-64-77-112.zone15.bethere.co.uk)
352. # [09:48] * heycam is now known as heycam|away
353. # [09:50] * Quits: SteveF_ (~chatzilla@cpc3-nmal20-2-0-cust916.19-2.cable.virginmedia.com) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
354. # [09:52] * Joins: Kolombiken (~Adium@94.137.124.2)
355. # [09:54] * heycam|away is now known as heycam
356. # [09:56] * heycam is now known as heycam|away
357. # [09:57] * Quits: tobie__ (~tobielang@col74-1-88-183-112-72.fbx.proxad.net) (Quit: tobie__)
358. # [09:58] * Quits: nessy (~silviapf@101.164.144.53) (Quit: Leaving.)
359. # [10:01] * Quits: baku (~baku@2-236-39-253.ip231.fastwebnet.it) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
360. # [10:01] * Joins: cheron (~cheron@unaffiliated/cheron)
361. # [10:04] * Quits: birtles (~chatzilla@61-121-216-2.bitcat.net) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.0.17/2009122204])
362. # [10:04] * Joins: darobin (~darobin@78.208.93.24)
363. # [10:10] * Joins: SteveF_ (~chatzilla@cpc3-nmal20-2-0-cust916.19-2.cable.virginmedia.com)
364. # [10:12] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@c-5eeaaa3a-74736162.cust.telenor.se)
365. # [10:14] * Quits: benbarnett (~Adium@46-64-77-112.zone15.bethere.co.uk) (Quit: Leaving.)
366. # [10:15] * Quits: SteveF_ (~chatzilla@cpc3-nmal20-2-0-cust916.19-2.cable.virginmedia.com) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90.1 [Firefox 23.0.1/20130814063812])
367. # [10:16] * Quits: lerc (~quassel@121.75.145.115) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
368. # [10:19] * Quits: Kolombiken (~Adium@94.137.124.2) (Quit: Leaving.)
369. # [10:19] * Joins: Kolombiken (~Adium@gateway.creuna.se)
370. # [10:20] * Joins: lerc (~quassel@121.75.145.115)
371. # [10:25] * Quits: annevk (~annevk@2.31.25.182) (Remote host closed the connection)
372. # [10:35] * Joins: nonge (~nonge@p5082B3FB.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
373. # [10:35] * Joins: tomasf_ (~tomasf@77.72.97.10.c.fiberdirekt.net)
374. # [10:37] * Quits: mitemitreski (~mitemitre@212.120.17.179) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
375. # [10:38] * Quits: nonge_ (~nonge@p5082A960.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
376. # [10:40] * Joins: mitemitreski (~mitemitre@212.120.17.179)
377. # [10:44] * Joins: zkis (~zkis@2001:998:22:0:dcf7:4eb3:4b80:7c01)
378. # [10:46] * Joins: zcorpan_ (~zcorpan@oslo-guest.fw-osl.opera.com)
379. # [10:47] * Joins: annevk (~annevk@207.218.72.65)
380. # [10:49] * Joins: Smylers (~smylers@81.143.60.194)
381. # [10:49] * Joins: dbaron (~dbaron@207.218.72.65)
382. # [10:50] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@c-5eeaaa3a-74736162.cust.telenor.se) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
383. # [10:52] <annevk> TabAtkins: I guess the other thing is that I hope example usage needs go away once more specs start using the revised building blocks; you just happen to be an early adaopter... :/
384. # [10:53] * Joins: hasather (~hasather@cm-84.210.170.16.getinternet.no)
385. # [10:55] * Quits: plutoniix (~plutoniix@210.213.57.70) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
386. # [11:00] * Joins: plutoniix (~plutoniix@210.213.57.70)
387. # [11:02] * Quits: jdaggett (~jdaggett@y230006.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp) (Quit: jdaggett)
388. # [11:02] * Joins: tobie_ (~tobielang@col74-1-88-183-112-72.fbx.proxad.net)
389. # [11:05] * Quits: tobie_ (~tobielang@col74-1-88-183-112-72.fbx.proxad.net) (Client Quit)
390. # [11:10] * Quits: hasather (~hasather@cm-84.210.170.16.getinternet.no) (Remote host closed the connection)
391. # [11:13] * Joins: tobie_ (~tobielang@col74-1-88-183-112-72.fbx.proxad.net)
392. # [11:14] * Joins: smaug____ (~chatzilla@a91-154-47-240.elisa-laajakaista.fi)
393. # [11:24] * Joins: tomasf__ (~tomasf@77.72.97.10.c.fiberdirekt.net)
394. # [11:25] * Quits: tomasf_ (~tomasf@77.72.97.10.c.fiberdirekt.net) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
395. # [11:27] * Joins: lilmonkey` (~colin@pdpc/supporter/professional/riven)
396. # [11:29] <jgraham> annevk: Yes. Tests are BSD/W3C dual licensed
397. # [11:30] <jgraham> i.e. they are BSD licensed but you don't get to call it the "W3C testsuite"
398. # [11:30] <annevk> They cannot be more liberally licensed I guess?
399. # [11:30] * Quits: lilmonkey (~colin@pdpc/supporter/professional/riven) (Read error: Operation timed out)
400. # [11:30] <jgraham> Not really
401. # [11:30] <jgraham> I mean that's pretty reasonable I think
402. # [11:30] <jgraham> (more liberal than any browser engine, for example)
403. # [11:32] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@oslo-guest.fw-osl.opera.com)
404. # [11:32] * Quits: zcorpan_ (~zcorpan@oslo-guest.fw-osl.opera.com) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
405. # [11:34] * Joins: Ardeet (~Ardeet@124-170-2-115.dyn.iinet.net.au)
406. # [11:36] * Quits: ryanseddon (uid1832@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-cnbnyfcvdouasmtc) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
407. # [11:36] * Quits: Scorchin (uid1242@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-onbtiruclfoqtact) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
408. # [11:36] * Quits: Ardeet (~Ardeet@124-170-2-115.dyn.iinet.net.au) (Remote host closed the connection)
409. # [11:37] * Quits: Domenic_ (uid10976@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-mgibiiepdjnavkyh) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
410. # [11:37] * Quits: richt (uid12457@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-fbxjwydlzihwwyer) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
411. # [11:37] * Quits: viduthalai1947_ (uid5404@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ulkaagptmguogqib) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
412. # [11:38] * Quits: slightlyoff (uid1768@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-niedyokibsnpcrpb) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
413. # [11:39] * Quits: JakeA (uid3836@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-qgstectgsjwficft) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
414. # [11:39] * Quits: tobie_ (~tobielang@col74-1-88-183-112-72.fbx.proxad.net) (Quit: tobie_)
415. # [11:40] * Quits: ricea (~ricea@2401:fa00:4:1000:b6b5:2fff:feca:47f8) (Quit: Leaving.)
416. # [11:41] * Quits: hdv (uid2376@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-seusxhmatlvzukkv) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
417. # [11:45] * Joins: SteveF_ (~chatzilla@cpc3-nmal20-2-0-cust916.19-2.cable.virginmedia.com)
418. # [11:48] <zcorpan> TabAtkins: WebSocket throws if the url is invalid
419. # [11:48] <zcorpan> TabAtkins: but there's probably also precedent for silent fail
420. # [11:49] <annevk> Like <a>
421. # [11:49] <annevk> And setting <a>.href
422. # [11:49] * Joins: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@13.210-64-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be)
423. # [11:50] * Quits: cwilso (uid10206@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-rnriuefccvmaofty) (Remote host closed the connection)
424. # [11:51] * Joins: MrTango (~maik@146-52-135-207-dynip.superkabel.de)
425. # [11:56] * Joins: baku (~baku@2-236-39-253.ip231.fastwebnet.it)
426. # [11:59] * Quits: jgraham (~jgraham@web91.webfaction.com) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
427. # [12:01] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@oslo-guest.fw-osl.opera.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
428. # [12:05] <annevk> Why has nobody noticed that http://encoding.spec.whatwg.org/#dom-textencoder-encode does not throw the exception it should?
429. # [12:05] <annevk> That's kind of disturbing...
430. # [12:05] * Joins: Scorchin (uid1242@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-gnzwsjdivabxbuxh)
431. # [12:05] * Quits: plutoniix (~plutoniix@210.213.57.70) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
432. # [12:06] * Joins: slightlyoff (uid1768@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-errkwqngxggoygmq)
433. # [12:06] <darobin> annevk: probably because no one has read it?
434. # [12:06] * Joins: ryanseddon (uid1832@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-dgujyattxfuvbfpw)
435. # [12:06] <annevk> Oh wait, only utf-8 / utf-16. Doh.
436. # [12:07] <annevk> No people have read that and implemented it. I just assumed it had to work for arbitrary encodings which is not true.
437. # [12:07] <annevk> We might want to add that at some point I suppose.
438. # [12:09] * Joins: hdv (uid2376@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-shjkesrspvxgkuqi)
439. # [12:11] * Quits: mounir (~mounir@oldworld.fr) (Quit: leaving)
440. # [12:11] * Joins: mounir (~mounir@oldworld.fr)
441. # [12:15] * Joins: jgraham (~jgraham@web91.webfaction.com)
442. # [12:15] * Joins: plutoniix (~plutoniix@210.213.57.70)
443. # [12:19] * annevk wonders where SimonSapin is
444. # [12:20] <Ms2ger> Behind you!
445. # [12:21] * Joins: JakeA (uid3836@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-bsupvwpssrluodat)
446. # [12:21] * Joins: hasather (~hasather@cm-84.210.170.16.getinternet.no)
447. # [12:21] * Quits: hasather (~hasather@cm-84.210.170.16.getinternet.no) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
448. # [12:21] * Joins: ricea (~ricea@2401:fa00:4:1000:b6b5:2fff:feca:47f8)
449. # [12:21] * Joins: hasather (~hasather@cm-84.210.170.16.getinternet.no)
450. # [12:24] <annevk> Ms2ger, typically that'd be very close, but today...
451. # [12:24] <Ms2ger> I dunno, he's French, maybe on vacation? :):
452. # [12:26] <annevk> So both the utf-8 and utf-16 encoders deal with lone surrogate input... Does that make sense?
453. # [12:27] <annevk> That also contradicts my earlier point about them always being safe...
454. # [12:28] <jgraham> annevk: draw a cone out from your back across the surface of the earth, and he is contained in the cone. At least if you allow it to wrap around the surface
455. # [12:28] <jgraham> So I guess he is behind you?
456. # [12:29] <annevk> s = new TextEncoder("utf-16le"); w(s.encode("\ud800"))
457. # [12:29] <annevk> Gives 0, 216
458. # [12:29] <SimonSapin> annevk: should it throw?
459. # [12:30] <annevk> SimonSapin: either that, or before it even reaches the encoder it should've been replaced with FFFD
460. # [12:31] <annevk> I think currently the latter is what's required through IDL...
461. # [12:31] <annevk> I'm fixing https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23103 so I ran into this
462. # [12:32] * Quits: hasather (~hasather@cm-84.210.170.16.getinternet.no) (Remote host closed the connection)
463. # [12:32] * Joins: viduthalai1947_ (uid5404@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-zufxmxfqhmzhlpln)
464. # [12:33] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@oslo-guest.fw-osl.opera.com)
465. # [12:34] <annevk> Gecko does the FFFD treatment for utf-8
466. # [12:34] <SimonSapin> uh. JS strings biting us again
467. # [12:35] <annevk> The more I run into it, the more I think we should just embrace it and define everything in terms of 16-bit code units. Although that'd be a pain for some encodings...
468. # [12:36] <annevk> Like rewriting gbk to work on 16-bit code units is way less nice.
469. # [12:36] * Quits: plutoniix (~plutoniix@210.213.57.70) (Quit: จรลี จรลา)
470. # [12:36] <annevk> And by everything I mean URL, Encoding, HTML, CSS, ...
471. # [12:37] * Joins: cwilso (uid10206@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-yrhkekhdysquivfi)
472. # [12:38] * Joins: Domenic_ (uid10976@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-wmncolgfqfgfyhin)
473. # [12:41] * Joins: richt (uid12457@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ozegswradxnuzpqh)
474. # [12:45] * smaug____ wonders why Promises are so hip
475. # [12:45] <jgraham> Because they are new and unproven and therefore we don't fully understand all the problems with them yet
476. # [12:46] <Ms2ger> zcorpan, jgraham: do you know if there's tests for MessageChannel and stuff somewhere?
477. # [12:47] <jgraham> Or, to be less synical, because all the async primitives we have tried in in so far have sucked, so trying a new approach that has theoretical benefits and some positive experience in the js framework community seems like a good idea
478. # [12:47] <jgraham> *cynical
479. # [12:49] <zcorpan> Ms2ger: https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/tree/master/webmessaging/message-channels
480. # [12:50] <Ms2ger> zcorpan, thanks
481. # [13:06] * Quits: alyssonfranklin (~Alysson@186.204.183.233) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
482. # [13:10] * Quits: smaug____ (~chatzilla@a91-154-47-240.elisa-laajakaista.fi) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
483. # [13:13] * Joins: smaug____ (~chatzilla@a91-154-47-240.elisa-laajakaista.fi)
484. # [13:23] <SimonSapin> annevk: code points everywhere
485. # [13:24] <annevk> SimonSapin: that might mean encoders that fail, depending on how we define them
486. # [13:28] * Joins: benbarnett (~Adium@46-64-77-112.zone15.bethere.co.uk)
487. # [13:29] <SimonSapin> annevk: do "16bits units everywhere" fix that? You can still get lone surrogates
488. # [13:29] <SimonSapin> is whatwg.org supposed to support https?
489. # [13:29] * Quits: stalled (~stalled@unaffiliated/stalled) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
490. # [13:29] <SimonSapin> <link href="//www.whatwg.org/style/specification" rel="stylesheet"> times out from https://rawgithub.com
491. # [13:30] <jgraham> I don't think it is
492. # [13:30] * Quits: slightlyoff (uid1768@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-errkwqngxggoygmq) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
493. # [13:30] * Quits: dfreedm (uid7859@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-rczrmqxksoyxwfew) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
494. # [13:31] * Joins: alyssonfranklin (~Alysson@186.231.3.171)
495. # [13:31] <SimonSapin> HTML uses href="http://www.whatwg.org/style/specification"
496. # [13:34] * Quits: marcosc (~marcosc@bl8-174-239.dsl.telepac.pt) (Remote host closed the connection)
497. # [13:34] * Joins: marcosc (~marcosc@bl8-174-239.dsl.telepac.pt)
498. # [13:36] * Joins: stalled (~stalled@unaffiliated/stalled)
499. # [13:39] * Quits: marcosc (~marcosc@bl8-174-239.dsl.telepac.pt) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
500. # [13:42] <Ms2ger> Apparently the Google Authenticator update is no good
501. # [13:43] * Quits: Kolombiken (~Adium@gateway.creuna.se) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
502. # [13:43] * Joins: Kolombiken1 (~Adium@gateway.creuna.se)
503. # [13:45] <annevk> SimonSapin: yeah, but then we just embrace lone surrogates, and only catch them when absolutely necessary
504. # [13:45] <annevk> SimonSapin: which is almost never
505. # [13:45] <SimonSapin> annevk: same as with code points?
506. # [13:45] <annevk> SimonSapin: code points doesn't really exist
507. # [13:45] <annevk> SimonSapin: so that seems kinda pointless as a concept
508. # [13:53] * Joins: marcosc (~marcosc@bl8-174-239.dsl.telepac.pt)
509. # [14:07] * Quits: coyotebush (~coyotebus@coyotebush.xen.prgmr.com) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
510. # [14:08] * Joins: coyotebush (~coyotebus@coyotebush.xen.prgmr.com)
511. # [14:11] * Joins: felipeduardo (~felipedua@189.115.44.34)
512. # [14:13] * Joins: zcorpan_ (~zcorpan@oslo-guest.fw-osl.opera.com)
513. # [14:13] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@oslo-guest.fw-osl.opera.com) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
514. # [14:14] * Quits: reyre (~reyre@CPE7cb21b1e2cf4-CM7cb21b1e2cf1.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
515. # [14:23] * Quits: marcosc (~marcosc@bl8-174-239.dsl.telepac.pt) (Remote host closed the connection)
516. # [14:24] * Joins: marcosc (~marcosc@bl8-174-239.dsl.telepac.pt)
517. # [14:24] * Joins: jwalden (~waldo@nat/mozilla/x-syepxkhkzhmygmpl)
518. # [14:24] * Joins: decotii (~decotii@hq.croscon.com)
519. # [14:27] * Joins: TuRnaD0 (~Thunderbi@x1-6-e0-46-9a-1e-fe-ca.k368.webspeed.dk)
520. # [14:28] * Quits: marcosc (~marcosc@bl8-174-239.dsl.telepac.pt) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
521. # [14:40] * Joins: scor (~scor@drupal.org/user/52142/view)
522. # [14:41] * Joins: newtron (~newtron@199.71.174.103)
523. # [14:45] * Joins: jreading (Adium@nat/novell/x-dpixdqoeyjborelc)
524. # [14:46] * Parts: jreading (Adium@nat/novell/x-dpixdqoeyjborelc)
525. # [14:49] * Joins: marcosc (~marcosc@bl8-174-239.dsl.telepac.pt)
526. # [14:51] * Joins: krawchyk (~krawchyk@65.220.49.251)
527. # [14:57] * Kolombiken1 is now known as Kolombiken
528. # [15:04] * Quits: scor (~scor@drupal.org/user/52142/view) (Quit: scor)
529. # [15:23] * Joins: TallTed (~Thud@63.119.36.36)
530. # [15:23] <annevk> (In case you were wondering, that's false starting with ES6. It'll expose methods around String objects that deal with code points, not 16-bit code units, or Unicode scalar values. That's a first though I think.)
531. # [15:26] * Joins: dfreedm (uid7859@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-hasxxglonbzucuql)
532. # [15:27] * Joins: slightlyoff (uid1768@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-xeapfrgfomfgowne)
533. # [15:29] * Joins: reyre (~reyre@142.204.133.18)
534. # [15:31] * Joins: scor (~scor@155.52.208.82)
535. # [15:31] * Quits: scor (~scor@155.52.208.82) (Changing host)
536. # [15:31] * Joins: scor (~scor@drupal.org/user/52142/view)
537. # [15:35] <SimonSapin> annevk: I went through the Encoding changes. Looks good.
538. # [15:36] <annevk> Thanks. I guess next would be figuring out if I want that abstract stream concept...
539. # [15:36] <annevk> Or maybe look into the various issues around encodings...
540. # [15:40] * Quits: Lachy (~textual@213.166.174.2) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
541. # [15:43] * Quits: tomasf__ (~tomasf@77.72.97.10.c.fiberdirekt.net) (Quit: tomasf__)
542. # [15:46] * Quits: alyssonfranklin (~Alysson@186.231.3.171) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
543. # [15:52] * Joins: ehsan (~ehsan@66.207.208.102)
544. # [15:52] * Quits: jwalden (~waldo@nat/mozilla/x-syepxkhkzhmygmpl) (Quit: brb)
545. # [15:56] * Joins: jwalden (~waldo@nat/mozilla/x-xzwscenvaftkbtml)
546. # [15:57] <GPHemsley> W3C is updating its Bugzilla instance tomorrow! \o/
547. # [15:57] <jgraham> W3C is breaking bugzilla tomorrow!
548. # [15:57] <GPHemsley> \o/
549. # [15:59] * Joins: yoshu (~josh@174-21-234-55.tukw.qwest.net)
550. # [16:01] * Joins: rubatdub (~khalil@213.188.180.185)
551. # [16:01] * Joins: charl_ (~charl@2001:67c:2564:524:92b1:1cff:fe89:ae5)
552. # [16:02] * Quits: zkis (~zkis@2001:998:22:0:dcf7:4eb3:4b80:7c01) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
553. # [16:06] * Quits: yoshu (~josh@174-21-234-55.tukw.qwest.net) (Quit: yoshu)
554. # [16:06] <Domenic_> Where is Mozilla's JS engine source located?
555. # [16:06] <Domenic_> Preferably web-viewable
556. # [16:09] <jgraham> https://dxr.mozilla.org
557. # [16:09] <jgraham> http://dxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/js specifically
558. # [16:10] <Domenic_> Awesome, thanks
559. # [16:10] <annevk> jgraham: what's the difference with http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/js/ ?
560. # [16:10] <jgraham> dxr is shinier
561. # [16:11] <jgraham> It has a bunch of fancy features based on static analysis of the code
562. # [16:11] <jgraham> But only works on m-c and one revision
563. # [16:11] <SimonSapin> cool
564. # [16:11] <annevk> But it's not live it seems
565. # [16:12] * Joins: alyssonfranklin (~Alysson@186.231.3.171)
566. # [16:12] <SimonSapin> live?
567. # [16:13] <jgraham> Right, it probably only gets updated sometimes
568. # [16:13] <jgraham> Because you need to do all the static analysis
569. # [16:14] <jgraham> I'm not sure how often, but the files seem to be dated 3rd September, so I guess daily?
570. # [16:20] * Joins: Somatt_wrk (~somattwrk@darkstar2.fullsix.com)
571. # [16:24] * Quits: SteveF_ (~chatzilla@cpc3-nmal20-2-0-cust916.19-2.cable.virginmedia.com) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
572. # [16:31] * Joins: encryptd_fractal (~encryptd_@66-188-99-174.static.ftbg.wi.charter.com)
573. # [16:33] * Quits: benbarnett (~Adium@46-64-77-112.zone15.bethere.co.uk) (Quit: Leaving.)
574. # [16:34] * Quits: rubatdub (~khalil@213.188.180.185) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
575. # [16:36] * Quits: alyssonfranklin (~Alysson@186.231.3.171) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
576. # [16:39] * Joins: SteveF_ (~chatzilla@cpc3-nmal20-2-0-cust916.19-2.cable.virginmedia.com)
577. # [16:40] * Joins: j_wright (~jwright@ip70-173-192-81.lv.lv.cox.net)
578. # [16:41] * Quits: j_wright (~jwright@ip70-173-192-81.lv.lv.cox.net) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
579. # [16:41] <Ms2ger> Mxr isn't live either
580. # [16:43] * Joins: j_wright (~jwright@ip70-173-192-81.lv.lv.cox.net)
581. # [16:45] * Joins: rubatdub (~khalil@213.188.180.185)
582. # [16:47] <Ms2ger> annevk, r? https://critic.hoppipolla.co.uk/r/294 :)
583. # [16:48] <annevk> long test is long
584. # [16:52] <zewt> TabAtkins: nothing I use supports it
585. # [16:53] <jgraham> That's a long test?
586. # [16:54] <Ms2ger> Have you seen jgraham's loading tests?
587. # [16:55] <jgraham> Well they're just silly
588. # [16:55] <jgraham> Tests that require navigation to three different files
589. # [16:56] <Ms2ger> I started reviewing, but...
590. # [16:56] * Quits: mven (~mven@ip68-224-15-53.lv.lv.cox.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
591. # [16:56] <jgraham> Yeah :|
592. # [16:56] <annevk> jgraham: I know I know
593. # [16:56] <jgraham> I would love to say "they were reviewed internally at Opera and are fine"
594. # [16:57] <jgraham> But that just isn't true
595. # [16:57] <Ms2ger> Well
596. # [16:57] <Ms2ger> The result of that would probably be people filing bugs and bz having to review them
597. # [16:57] <jgraham> gsnedders probably reviewed them a bit, but they are quite likely to be buggy, and the spec was unstable and the implementation was never finished
598. # [16:57] <jgraham> So..
599. # [16:58] <SimonSapin> annevk: ES6 codePointAt and fromCodePoint are the only things that "expose" code points to the platform … but are unicode scalar values exposed ?
600. # [16:58] <annevk> Yes, utf-8
601. # [16:58] <SimonSapin> if exposed means from JS
602. # [16:58] <annevk> No it just means exposed
603. # [17:01] <SimonSapin> data:text/html,<script>document.write('\uD800')</script> looks like a missing glyph in Gecko. Isn’t that the text subsystem working on code points?
604. # [17:01] <SimonSapin> (missing glyph, as opposed to replacement character)
605. # [17:01] <jgraham> Ms2ger: So I don't mind bz reviewing them :)
606. # [17:01] * Quits: baku (~baku@2-236-39-253.ip231.fastwebnet.it) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
607. # [17:01] <Ms2ger> jgraham, well, I'm not sure if I'd prioritize it over his other work ;)
608. # [17:01] <Ms2ger> Maybe I should enlist the Servo folks
609. # [17:02] * Quits: SteveF_ (~chatzilla@cpc3-nmal20-2-0-cust916.19-2.cable.virginmedia.com) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90.1 [Firefox 23.0.1/20130814063812])
610. # [17:02] <jgraham> Yeah, well the servo people are the ones that should benefit the most from this
611. # [17:03] <jgraham> But afaict they are so far away from having a working DOM that it is too early to do any of this kind of testing
612. # [17:03] <jgraham> Maybe I should work out how to build servo
613. # [17:04] <Ms2ger> I mentioned getting testharness.js to work to jdm and he seemed positive
614. # [17:05] <annevk> SimonSapin: doesn't seem interoperable
615. # [17:05] <SimonSapin> chrome just seems to just stop at lone surrogate and drop the rest of the string: data:text/html,<script>document.write('ab\uD800cd')</script>
616. # [17:06] <SimonSapin> well, worse than that: data:text/html,<script>document.write('ab\uD800cd')</script>ef
617. # [17:06] * Ms2ger wonders how to update his tree again
618. # [17:07] <Domenic_> annevk: SimonSapin: there's a bit more code point exposure in ES6 than just those methods, e.g. http://www.slideshare.net/domenicdenicola/es6-is-nigh/41
619. # [17:08] * Joins: jernoble (~jernoble@mobile-166-137-185-007.mycingular.net)
620. # [17:08] <annevk> Domenic_: I mentioned the iterator in my email I think
621. # [17:08] <annevk> Domenic_: it's not in the draft though
622. # [17:08] <annevk> Domenic_: anyway, it could do the same
623. # [17:08] <Domenic_> annevk: ah right, sorry missed that
624. # [17:10] <Domenic_> I believe the ES6 conceptual model was supposed to be 21 bit code points, with "legacy" string[i] and string.charCodeAt(i) exposing 16-bit code units.
625. # [17:11] <annevk> Yeah, it's pretty clear what they went for, I think it'd be better to align with Unicode's actual data model if possible (which means not exposing surrogates if we don't have to)
626. # [17:12] <Domenic_> I don't know very much about this so I'm not sure what they're doing wrong, heh.
627. # [17:15] * Joins: baku (~baku@2-236-39-253.ip231.fastwebnet.it)
628. # [17:19] * Quits: zcorpan_ (~zcorpan@oslo-guest.fw-osl.opera.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
629. # [17:19] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@oslo-guest.fw-osl.opera.com)
630. # [17:20] * Joins: SteveF_ (~chatzilla@cpc3-nmal20-2-0-cust916.19-2.cable.virginmedia.com)
631. # [17:22] <zewt> well, if you have UTF-16 as your underlying storage, random access to indexed codepoints is hard, heh
632. # [17:23] <Ms2ger> If you have anything but utf-32? :)
633. # [17:23] <SimonSapin> The i in s.codePointAt(i) counts 16 bit units, not code points
634. # [17:24] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@oslo-guest.fw-osl.opera.com) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
635. # [17:24] <zewt> SimonSapin: sure, replying to "supposed to be 21-bit codepoints"
636. # [17:25] <zewt> Ms2ger: utf-32 is probably the right storage format
637. # [17:25] <Domenic_> SimonSapin: I don't believe that's true, I believe it's supposed to count 21-bit code points.
638. # [17:25] <jgraham> zewt: Arguably that depends on what you think is important
639. # [17:26] <jgraham> If indexed access isn't important then UTF-32 is just a waste of memory in most cases
640. # [17:26] <jgraham> Well, unless your system is mainly storing Linear-B I guess
641. # [17:26] <zewt> indexed access isn't particularly important, as long as you have an API model that works with it ... JS developers are probably too programmed for it
642. # [17:27] <SimonSapin> Domenic_: from the draft: Let first be the code unit value of the element at index position in the String S.
643. # [17:27] <SimonSapin> ie. first = S[position]
644. # [17:28] <Domenic_> SimonSapin: no, indexed positions are code points
645. # [17:29] <Domenic_> SimonSapin: []s are not, but those are different from the spec term "index position"
646. # [17:29] <jgraham> Uh
647. # [17:29] <jgraham> That's one confusing spec then
648. # [17:30] <Domenic_> SimonSapin: compare codePointAt and charAt (which uses "the code unit at position position")
649. # [17:30] * Joins: say2joe (~say2joe@209-253-225-97.ip.mcleodusa.net)
650. # [17:31] <SimonSapin> So is this wrong? https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/JavaScript/Reference/Global_Objects/String/charCodeAt#Example_4.3A_ES_6_codePointAt_shim
651. # [17:31] <zewt> exposing anything about codepoint indexes on top of utf-16 would be pretty ugly, though you can probably optimize the most common cases to avoid n^2 (forward and backward scanning)
652. # [17:31] <annevk> Domenic_: where is index position defined?
653. # [17:32] <Domenic_> annevk: http://people.mozilla.org/~jorendorff/es6-draft.html#sec-7.8.6
654. # [17:32] <Domenic_> there are broken links pointing to 8.4, but that is outdated. (Wasn't keeping references up to date an actual feature of Word? :-S)
655. # [17:33] <annevk> Domenic_: searching for "index position" doesn't get there...
656. # [17:33] <Domenic_> annevk: right, but SV is an (indexed) sequence of CVs, which are defined there.
657. # [17:35] <zewt> (though I guess caching could run into catastrophic performance dropoffs; eg. if only a single position is cached, and a parser is scanning linearly from two different places, performance would mysteriously fall through the floor)
658. # [17:35] <SimonSapin> I’m confused
659. # [17:35] <annevk> Domenic_: CV only seems to talk about code unit sequences, not code point sequences
660. # [17:36] <Domenic_> annevk: I don't think so... e.g. the CV of \u{six digits} is given as a single number
661. # [17:36] <annevk> Domenic_: no, it says to unwrap it using utf-16 into two code units
662. # [17:36] <annevk> Domenic_: if it's higher than U+FFFF anyway
663. # [17:37] <Domenic_> ah yeah, you're right
664. # [17:37] <Domenic_> hrm
665. # [17:37] <annevk> Domenic_: the CV stuff is kinda confused
666. # [17:37] * Parts: say2joe (~say2joe@209-253-225-97.ip.mcleodusa.net)
667. # [17:37] <annevk> Domenic_: it suddenly starts talking about characters now and then rather than empty code unit sequence
668. # [17:38] <Domenic_> I wonder if I have the intent right though. Notably codePointAt(i) and charAt(i) say very different things about what to do with `i`.
669. # [17:39] <annevk> maybe :)
670. # [17:39] <annevk> it'd make codePointAt quite a bit slower
671. # [17:41] <Domenic_> http://wiki.ecmascript.org/lib/exe/fetch.php?id=harmony%3Aunicode_supplementary_characters&cache=cache&media=harmony:supplementary_characters_for_ecmascript.pdf
672. # [17:41] <annevk> The way TC39 operates reminds me of OMA back in 2005 when I started at Opera...
673. # [17:42] <annevk> It's 2013, PDFs you have to download to read a proposal? Come on...
674. # [17:42] * Joins: jdaggett (~jdaggett@y230006.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp)
675. # [17:42] <Domenic_> my hatred of PDFs has decreased significantly since pdfjs got into Firefox stable :)
676. # [17:42] <zewt> pdf is still terrible, even in chrome's viewer
677. # [17:43] <zewt> spent like a minute copying a couple pages of a list the other day because it wouldn't let me extend a selection (in osx)
678. # [17:43] <annevk> Domenic_: codePointAt is implemented in terms of charCodeAt there
679. # [17:43] <annevk> Domenic_: passing index directly to charCodeAt that is to find the first surrogate (if any)
680. # [17:44] <annevk> Domenic_: sure, but this is not served in a way that opens in pdf.js automatically
681. # [17:44] <Domenic_> annevk: yeah, looks like I was just wrong, darn. codePointAt seems not very useful.
682. # [17:44] <Domenic_> annevk: interesting, it opened in pdfjs automatically for me.
683. # [17:44] <annevk> Domenic_: the language differences are kinda broken though
684. # [17:45] <Domenic_> annevk: agreed, if they are supposed to be using the same indexing paradigm, the current spec does not make that clear.
685. # [17:46] <zewt> could be maybe sort-of useful if it returned -1 for high surrogates, so you could say for(i=0;i<n;++i) { codepoint = s.codePointAt(n); if(codepoint == -1) continue; /* skip */ log(codepoint); }
686. # [17:46] <annevk> It might be better to just have the iterator and maybe String.fromUnicode(...) or some such
687. # [17:46] <annevk> Does String.from() exist?
688. # [17:46] <Domenic_> no
689. # [17:47] <zewt> so you'd just skip over high surrogates (that you already dealt with at n-1)
690. # [17:47] <annevk> Why is not called String.from()?
691. # [17:47] <zewt> (er, probably flip high/low)
692. # [17:47] <Hixie_> i use http://people.mozilla.org/~jorendorff/es6-draft.html as the js spec, but i don't know if there's proposals in html format
693. # [17:47] <annevk> Hixie_: same and there's the wiki pages...
694. # [17:48] <Domenic_> annevk: what would you want as String.from()? Your proposed String.fromUnicode()?
695. # [17:48] <annevk> Hixie_: last meeting there was talk about putting it all in GH but inertia I guess
696. # [17:48] <annevk> Domenic_: yeah, sequence of 21-bit code points, but with surrogates banned (so, Unicode scalar values)
697. # [17:48] <Ms2ger> And you're not allowed to look at the wiki, because you have to smell that they're out of date, why are you even looking there, stupid
698. # [17:49] <Domenic_> annevk: like... String.from(65, 1234, 23341)?
699. # [17:49] <annevk> They could use some project management indeed. Outward communication is really poor. You kinda have to attend meetings to understand what's going on and how stuff works, which I'm doing atm...
700. # [17:49] <annevk> Domenic_: yeah
701. # [17:50] <annevk> Domenic_: just a better String.fromCharCode()
702. # [17:50] <Domenic_> That's called String.fromCodePoint() now :)
703. # [17:50] <annevk> Domenic_: I know, but that one outputs lone surrogates
704. # [17:50] <annevk> Domenic_: and I thought we preferred shorter names?
705. # [17:50] <Ms2ger> Well, that or put everything that's being implemented into the spec
706. # [17:51] <annevk> Ms2ger: they are in on that plan now I think
707. # [17:52] <Domenic_> What other plan would there be O_o
708. # [17:52] <Ms2ger> But maybe also not have the spec in a word document that's only released once in a blue moon
709. # [17:52] <annevk> Ms2ger: so if something is missing we could file a bug... although BE does still value underdefining features
710. # [17:53] <annevk> Domenic_: well they refused to document a bunch of stuff until we made it clear via e.g. http://javascript.spec.whatwg.org/ that it's actually implemented
711. # [17:53] <Domenic_> annevk: ah right that stuff.
712. # [17:53] <annevk> Domenic_: I'm not sure if '<!--'-style comments are now?
713. # [17:53] <Domenic_> annevk: there's a TODO for those in annex B I believe
714. # [17:54] * Joins: svl (~me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl)
715. # [17:54] <annevk> they're gonna patch the core grammar in an annex? maha
716. # [17:54] <Domenic_> ideally Node.js would not need <!-- comments
717. # [17:55] <annevk> I don't really see what's ideal about having an additional code path in your ES engine about something so minor
718. # [17:55] <Ms2ger> annevk, sounds like css21
719. # [17:55] <annevk> especially if it means more transition cost when converting JS files
720. # [17:55] * Quits: cabanier (~cabanier@c-98-237-137-173.hsd1.wa.comcast.net) (Quit: Leaving.)
721. # [17:57] <jgraham> Domenic_: Doesn't node.js get wahtever V8 provides?
722. # [17:57] <jgraham> Which I assume includes <!--
723. # [17:57] <Domenic_> jgraham: yeah. you can do HTML comments in Node at the moment.
724. # [17:58] <Ms2ger> Well
725. # [17:58] <Ms2ger> Ideally node doesn't use JS ;)
726. # [17:58] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@50-0-164-83.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net)
727. # [18:00] * Quits: Kolombiken (~Adium@gateway.creuna.se) (Quit: Leaving.)
728. # [18:06] <gsnedders> jgraham, Ms2ger: I vetted them for release, not so much following the spec. And given I know they never matched the spec…
729. # [18:07] <annevk> hah, matjas ^^
730. # [18:07] <matjas> :)
731. # [18:07] * Quits: jernoble (~jernoble@mobile-166-137-185-007.mycingular.net) (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
732. # [18:08] <matjas> still not as bad as php recognizing <script>
733. # [18:09] * Quits: SteveF_ (~chatzilla@cpc3-nmal20-2-0-cust916.19-2.cable.virginmedia.com) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90.1 [Firefox 23.0.1/20130814063812])
734. # [18:10] * Joins: jernoble (~jernoble@66.109.106.253)
735. # [18:13] * Quits: nonge (~nonge@p5082B3FB.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Quit: Verlassend)
736. # [18:13] * Quits: darobin (~darobin@78.208.93.24) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
737. # [18:14] * Quits: jernoble (~jernoble@66.109.106.253) (Client Quit)
738. # [18:14] * Joins: jsbell (jsbell@nat/google/x-osdssctsmjpszdrq)
739. # [18:15] * Joins: darobin (~darobin@2a01:e34:ed05:d180:c02e:fa6b:1593:7914)
740. # [18:18] * Joins: jreading1 (Adium@nat/novell/x-nwhrznlkggvaueiy)
741. # [18:20] * Parts: jreading1 (Adium@nat/novell/x-nwhrznlkggvaueiy)
742. # [18:20] <annevk> I hope Norbert has rationale for the surrogate thing because it sure seems like Brendan didn't think of it
743. # [18:20] * Quits: Somatt_wrk (~somattwrk@darkstar2.fullsix.com) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
744. # [18:22] <matjas> Allen mentioned use cases like strings containing “binary data” before
745. # [18:22] <matjas> at one point he wanted to allow up to 8 digits for the new `\u{xx}` escapes for that reason
746. # [18:23] <matjas> maybe this surrogates thing is similar?
747. # [18:23] <jgraham> String containing binary data?
748. # [18:23] <matjas> well, you know
749. # [18:23] <jgraham> Those aren't strings…
750. # [18:24] <jgraham> Having a single data type for strings and random binary data is an oft-repeated mistake in language design
751. # [18:24] <matjas> e.g. `foo © bar` becomes `\x66\x6F\x6F\x20\xC2\xA9\x20\x62\x61\x72` if you represent it as UTF-8
752. # [18:24] <matjas> if you dont wanna use an array of bytes for some reason, i guess
753. # [18:24] <annevk> matjas: I'd like to see why
754. # [18:24] <matjas> yeah, i was glad when they decided only to allow 6 digits in \u{xx}
755. # [18:24] <annevk> in any event, climbing time
756. # [18:25] * Quits: annevk (~annevk@207.218.72.65) (Remote host closed the connection)
757. # [18:25] * Joins: annevk (~annevk@207.218.72.65)
758. # [18:26] * Joins: jernoble (~jernoble@17.114.108.122)
759. # [18:26] * Quits: Smylers (~smylers@81.143.60.194) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
760. # [18:26] <matjas> https://mail.mozilla.org/pipermail/es-discuss/2012-March/021919.html: “Exclude 0xD800-0xDFFF? No.”
761. # [18:27] * Quits: darobin (~darobin@2a01:e34:ed05:d180:c02e:fa6b:1593:7914) (Remote host closed the connection)
762. # [18:30] * Quits: annevk (~annevk@207.218.72.65) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
763. # [18:37] * Joins: Maurice (copyman@5ED57922.cm-7-6b.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
764. # [18:41] * Joins: jernoble_ (~jernoble@17.212.152.13)
765. # [18:48] * Joins: Somatt_wrk (~somattwrk@darkstar2.fullsix.com)
766. # [18:50] * Quits: lokling (~quassel@quassel.woboq.de) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
767. # [18:50] * Quits: JakeA (uid3836@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-bsupvwpssrluodat) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
768. # [18:55] * Joins: Lachy (~textual@cm-84.215.104.248.getinternet.no)
769. # [18:56] * Joins: cabanier (~cabanier@192.150.22.55)
770. # [18:57] <TabAtkins> Why would you *possibly* want 8 character in \u?
771. # [18:58] <TabAtkins> Unicode is only 21 bits wide, which is 6 hex chars. utf-8 is 4 bytes wide, or 8 hex chars, but \u doesn't specify utf-8, it specifies unicode code points (or scalars, whatever).
772. # [19:00] <TabAtkins> I mean, maybe plan for the future and make sure the syntax can be expanded up to 8, just in case we ever expand unicode up to 32 bits, but that's it. (And the \u{} syntax is okay with that, so we're good.)
773. # [19:01] <gsnedders> A lot of languages use \U00000000, because they go back to UCS-4 days.
774. # [19:01] <jgraham> TabAtkins: YOu might, if you wanted the string type to be used for both strings and arrays of binary data. Then \u{} notation would provide a convenient way of specifying 32bits of data at a time
775. # [19:02] <jgraham> (you would be wrong to want that, but lots of languages have historically worked like that so you would be in good company)
776. # [19:02] <TabAtkins> jgraham: But... it *doesn't* specify 32 bits at a time. Unless you have some magic switch in your encoder that says that codepoints greater than u+10ffff get encoded as raw 32-bit ints.
777. # [19:03] <jgraham> Well you could have that
778. # [19:03] * Joins: lokling (~quassel@quassel.woboq.de)
779. # [19:03] * Joins: garciawebdev (~garciaweb@11-223-235-201.fibertel.com.ar)
780. # [19:03] <jgraham> Although I guess it still doesn't really work
781. # [19:03] <jgraham> So pass?
782. # [19:04] <TabAtkins> Right.
783. # [19:04] <TabAtkins> It sounds like the sort of thing you'd do only if you were certain that it would get encoded in ucs-4.
784. # [19:15] * Joins: say2joe (~say2joe@209-253-225-97.ip.mcleodusa.net)
785. # [19:15] * Quits: baku (~baku@2-236-39-253.ip231.fastwebnet.it) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
786. # [19:18] * Joins: baku (~baku@2-236-39-253.ip231.fastwebnet.it)
787. # [19:22] * Joins: TheGallery (~TheGaller@ppp-2-85-123-86.home.otenet.gr)
788. # [19:22] * Quits: rubatdub (~khalil@213.188.180.185) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
789. # [19:23] * Quits: baku (~baku@2-236-39-253.ip231.fastwebnet.it) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
790. # [19:25] * Parts: say2joe (~say2joe@209-253-225-97.ip.mcleodusa.net)
791. # [19:27] * Joins: darobin (~darobin@78.208.93.24)
792. # [19:32] * Quits: Guest37224 (~Krinkle@ec2-50-112-50-28.us-west-2.compute.amazonaws.com) (Changing host)
793. # [19:32] * Joins: Guest37224 (~Krinkle@wikimedia/Krinkle)
794. # [19:32] * Guest37224 is now known as Krinkle
795. # [19:36] * Joins: jacobolus (~jacobolus@70-36-196-50.dsl.static.sonic.net)
796. # [19:37] * Joins: Bass10 (~Bass10@c-76-113-194-7.hsd1.mn.comcast.net)
797. # [19:38] * Quits: smaug____ (~chatzilla@a91-154-47-240.elisa-laajakaista.fi) (Quit: Reconnecting…)
798. # [19:39] * Joins: smaug____ (~chatzilla@a91-154-47-240.elisa-laajakaista.fi)
799. # [19:39] * Quits: mitemitreski (~mitemitre@212.120.17.179) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
800. # [19:39] * Quits: TheGallery (~TheGaller@ppp-2-85-123-86.home.otenet.gr) (Quit: Leaving)
801. # [19:40] * Joins: ap (~ap@2620:149:4:304:d010:ff51:6451:e14a)
802. # [19:41] * Joins: yoshu (~josh@67.138.164.194)
803. # [19:43] * Joins: nimbu (~nimbu@192.150.10.209)
804. # [19:51] * Joins: rniwa (~rniwa@17.212.154.114)
805. # [19:54] * Joins: benbarnett (~Adium@46-64-77-112.zone15.bethere.co.uk)
806. # [19:57] * Quits: benbarnett (~Adium@46-64-77-112.zone15.bethere.co.uk) (Client Quit)
807. # [19:58] * Joins: rubatdub (~khalil@213.188.180.185)
808. # [20:01] * Quits: encryptd_fractal (~encryptd_@66-188-99-174.static.ftbg.wi.charter.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
809. # [20:02] * Quits: yoshu (~josh@67.138.164.194) (Quit: yoshu)
810. # [20:03] * Joins: encryptd_fractal (~encryptd_@66-188-99-174.static.ftbg.wi.charter.com)
811. # [20:03] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
812. # [20:03] * Joins: hasather (~hasather@cm-84.210.170.16.getinternet.no)
813. # [20:05] * Joins: benbarnett (~Adium@46-64-77-112.zone15.bethere.co.uk)
814. # [20:06] * Quits: benbarnett (~Adium@46-64-77-112.zone15.bethere.co.uk) (Client Quit)
815. # [20:09] * Quits: encryptd_fractal (~encryptd_@66-188-99-174.static.ftbg.wi.charter.com) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
816. # [20:09] * Joins: encryptd_fractal (~encryptd_@66-188-99-174.static.ftbg.wi.charter.com)
817. # [20:12] * Joins: yorick (~yorick@oftn/member/yorick)
818. # [20:13] <TabAtkins> marcosc: There an agenda posted for the ricg meetup next week?
819. # [20:15] * Joins: benbarnett (~Adium@46-64-77-112.zone15.bethere.co.uk)
820. # [20:18] <Domenic_> So there's no event for <details> opening and closing. My guess is you're supposed to use "click" on the <summary>?
821. # [20:18] * Joins: lmclister (~lmclister@192.150.10.209)
822. # [20:18] * Joins: TheGallery (~TheGaller@ppp-2-85-123-86.home.otenet.gr)
823. # [20:21] * Quits: benbarnett (~Adium@46-64-77-112.zone15.bethere.co.uk) (Quit: Leaving.)
824. # [20:23] <TabAtkins> Hixie_ was just saying a few weeks ago that he was surprised nobody had ever requested a <details> event. Yeah, for now you just use "click" on <summary>.
825. # [20:23] * jonlee is now known as jonlee|afk
826. # [20:24] * Quits: marcosc (~marcosc@bl8-174-239.dsl.telepac.pt) (Remote host closed the connection)
827. # [20:24] * Joins: marcosc (~marcosc@bl8-174-239.dsl.telepac.pt)
828. # [20:25] * Quits: diffalot (~papyroman@c-76-107-128-104.hsd1.ms.comcast.net) (Changing host)
829. # [20:25] * Joins: diffalot (~papyroman@unaffiliated/papyromancer)
830. # [20:25] <Domenic_> thanks! converting my boss to using semantic HTML :P
831. # [20:27] <Hixie_> Domenic_: if you have an opinion on whether we should have onopen/onclose or just one event, comment on https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=22942
832. # [20:28] <Domenic_> Hixie_: hmm. I don't think I have a strong enough opinion. My opinion is more along the lines of "damn browser vendors, hurry up and implement `Object.observe` already."
833. # [20:28] <Hixie_> oh well if you just want that you can use a mutation observer on the open="" attribute
834. # [20:29] * Quits: marcosc (~marcosc@bl8-174-239.dsl.telepac.pt) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
835. # [20:29] * Joins: Smylers (~smylers@host81-132-95-22.range81-132.btcentralplus.com)
836. # [20:29] <Domenic_> i get so confused on these boolean attributes, whether they work or not. i guess it's just [checked] vs. defaultChecked vs. checked that threw me off but the confusion persists.
837. # [20:30] * Quits: dbaron (~dbaron@207.218.72.65) (Quit: 8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.)
838. # [20:32] * Quits: hasather (~hasather@cm-84.210.170.16.getinternet.no) (Remote host closed the connection)
839. # [20:35] * Joins: bholley (~bholley@c-50-148-162-19.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
840. # [20:38] * Joins: marcosc (~marcosc@bl8-174-239.dsl.telepac.pt)
841. # [20:38] * Joins: hasather (~hasather@cm-84.210.170.16.getinternet.no)
842. # [20:39] <marcosc> TabAtkins: only an initial one - still waiting for confirmation from speakers. https://github.com/ResponsiveImagesCG/paris-meetup#proposed-agenda
843. # [20:39] <TabAtkins> marcosc: Good enough for me, I just had my boss request an agenda.
844. # [20:45] * Quits: MrTango (~maik@146-52-135-207-dynip.superkabel.de) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
845. # [20:46] * Joins: arunranga (~otherarun@cpe-98-14-81-69.nyc.res.rr.com)
846. # [20:47] * Joins: ap_ (~ap@17.202.47.229)
847. # [20:48] * Joins: zkis (~zkis@87-93-193-51.bb.dnainternet.fi)
848. # [20:48] * Joins: [[zzzz]] (~q@node-mtq.pool-101-108.dynamic.totbb.net)
849. # [20:48] * Quits: ap_ (~ap@17.202.47.229) (Client Quit)
850. # [20:49] * Quits: ap (~ap@2620:149:4:304:d010:ff51:6451:e14a) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
851. # [20:51] * Joins: JakeA (uid3836@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-bcdhgvgqujxlggxq)
852. # [20:52] * Quits: [[zzz]] (~q@node-3op.pool-125-25.dynamic.totbb.net) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
853. # [20:54] <TabAtkins> Hixie_: How should I hook into the Structured Clone algorithm to define a new type that can be cloned?
854. # [20:55] <TabAtkins> I need to define that FontFace objects can be cloned to Workers (creating a fresh FontFace with the same information on the other end).
855. # [20:56] * Quits: nimbu (~nimbu@192.150.10.209) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
856. # [20:57] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@50-0-164-83.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net) (Quit: tantek)
857. # [21:01] <Ms2ger> See the typed array spec
858. # [21:02] <Hixie_> TabAtkins: e-mail me and i'll add it, probably
859. # [21:04] <Hixie_> looking for bike shed colours in https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=22942 (event name for <details>)
860. # [21:09] * Joins: scor_ (~scor@w0105260.mgh.harvard.edu)
861. # [21:09] * Quits: scor_ (~scor@w0105260.mgh.harvard.edu) (Changing host)
862. # [21:09] * Joins: scor_ (~scor@drupal.org/user/52142/view)
863. # [21:09] * Quits: Smylers (~smylers@host81-132-95-22.range81-132.btcentralplus.com) (Quit: Leaving.)
864. # [21:11] * Quits: scor (~scor@drupal.org/user/52142/view) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
865. # [21:11] * scor_ is now known as scor
866. # [21:20] * Joins: ^esc_ (~esc-ape@178.115.129.19.wireless.dyn.drei.com)
867. # [21:21] * Quits: ^esc (~esc-ape@178.115.133.67.wireless.dyn.drei.com) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
868. # [21:22] * Quits: svl (~me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl) (Quit: And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.)
869. # [21:29] * Quits: hasather (~hasather@cm-84.210.170.16.getinternet.no) (Remote host closed the connection)
870. # [21:29] <Domenic_> What was the point of the wheel event (as opposed to mousewheel)?
871. # [21:29] * Joins: hasather (~hasather@cm-84.210.170.16.getinternet.no)
872. # [21:30] <Ms2ger> D3E not wanting to figure out what legacy browsers did, and instead inventing something else?
873. # [21:30] <Domenic_> yeah ok that's what it seemed like
874. # [21:30] <Domenic_> then FF had to go and implement wheel but not mousewheel :-S
875. # [21:30] <Ms2ger> Disclaimer: I wasn't around at the time
876. # [21:34] * Quits: hasather (~hasather@cm-84.210.170.16.getinternet.no) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
877. # [21:34] * Quits: TheGallery (~TheGaller@ppp-2-85-123-86.home.otenet.gr) (Quit: Leaving)
878. # [21:34] * Quits: danielfilho (~danielfil@208.68.39.233) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
879. # [21:34] * Joins: ap (~ap@17.245.105.234)
880. # [21:37] * Joins: danielfilho (~danielfil@208.68.39.233)
881. # [21:38] * Joins: annevk (~annevk@2.31.25.182)
882. # [21:38] <annevk> TabAtkins: your email doesn't make sense
883. # [21:39] <annevk> TabAtkins: to elaborate, encoder != decoder, and the decoder already does the right thing
884. # [21:44] <smaug____> Domenic_: all the browser which implement mousewheel implement it in very different ways
885. # [21:44] <smaug____> and it didn't have the features I wanted :)
886. # [21:45] <smaug____> hmm, who knows about hgroup?
887. # [21:45] <smaug____> why it is so controversial ?
888. # [21:46] * smaug____ doesn't want to read html wg mailing list
889. # [21:48] <jgraham> Because people like arguning over silly things
890. # [21:49] <jgraham> *arguing
891. # [21:50] <darobin> is hgroup controversial?
892. # [21:50] <darobin> I thought some people thought one thing, others thought another, but they didn't bother talking about it anymore
893. # [21:50] <Ms2ger> HTMLWG forked
894. # [21:50] <jgraham> I can't actually remember what the controversy was about now, but I am pretty sure it was something that will become irrelevant once the feature is used
895. # [21:50] <Ms2ger> Apart from that, no
896. # [21:51] * Joins: hasather (~hasather@cm-84.210.170.16.getinternet.no)
897. # [21:51] <jgraham> (and will clearly be irrelevant if the feature is never used)
898. # [21:51] <Ms2ger> I think the argument was that you were supposed to break the outline
899. # [21:51] <darobin> I reckon either the feature gets used, and the debate becomes irrelevant, or it doesn't get used, and the debate becomes irrelevant
900. # [21:51] <darobin> but then again the outline is broken :)
901. # [21:52] * Quits: jwalden (~waldo@nat/mozilla/x-xzwscenvaftkbtml) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
902. # [21:52] <darobin> pulling wheel out of the 927 trap might be more useful
903. # [21:52] <smaug____> darobin: well, we have a bug which has been reopened and closed many times depending on who is looking at it... the ones who care about W3C HTMLx specs close it, and the ones who care about WhatWG HTML spec reopen it
904. # [21:53] <darobin> smaug____: how can one open and close a bug on this? even the forked HTML WG version has it as a legacy element so browser can safely just support it
905. # [21:54] * Joins: alrra (~alrra@unaffiliated/alrra)
906. # [21:54] <smaug____> can or must?
907. # [21:54] <darobin> I don't recall
908. # [21:54] <darobin> that's how much I care :)
909. # [21:54] <smaug____> :)
910. # [21:55] <smaug____> I should not care either
911. # [21:55] <jgraham> The element doesn't *do* anything in a typical browser
912. # [21:55] <annevk> matjas: thanks for the help!
913. # [21:55] <Ms2ger> Well, the bug is about the mapping to a11y apis
914. # [21:55] <darobin> smaug____: in the parser at least it's clearly must
915. # [21:55] <jgraham> Oh right
916. # [21:55] <darobin> oh that
917. # [21:55] <jgraham> Well that is the one place it does make a difference
918. # [21:56] * Quits: hasather (~hasather@cm-84.210.170.16.getinternet.no) (Remote host closed the connection)
919. # [21:56] <annevk> matjas: ooh, sad email is sad.
920. # [21:56] * Joins: hasather (~hasather@cm-84.210.170.16.getinternet.no)
921. # [21:56] * Quits: encryptd_fractal (~encryptd_@66-188-99-174.static.ftbg.wi.charter.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
922. # [21:56] <darobin> jgraham: it actually makes very minor differences in a few other places
923. # [21:57] <darobin> e.g. it closes a <p>
924. # [21:57] * Joins: encryptd_fractal (~encryptd_@66-188-99-174.static.ftbg.wi.charter.com)
925. # [21:57] <darobin> it's also in the UA style sheet with some non-default rules
926. # [21:57] <darobin> but yeah, no big deal
927. # [21:58] <darobin> interestingly, in the parsing section it's marked as having "special parsing rules", but then it proceeds to only appear under the comment "the normal ones" :)
928. # [21:58] <darobin> anyway
929. # [21:59] * darobin trots off to read stuff made of paper
930. # [21:59] * Quits: darobin (~darobin@78.208.93.24) (Remote host closed the connection)
931. # [22:00] * Quits: hasather (~hasather@cm-84.210.170.16.getinternet.no) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
932. # [22:02] * Krinkle is now known as Krinkle|detached
933. # [22:04] * Quits: alrra (~alrra@unaffiliated/alrra) (Quit: Leaving)
934. # [22:13] * Quits: krawchyk (~krawchyk@65.220.49.251) (Remote host closed the connection)
935. # [22:24] * Joins: nimbu (~nimbu@50-0-136-58.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net)
936. # [22:27] * Joins: svl (~me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl)
937. # [22:39] * Quits: nimbu (~nimbu@50-0-136-58.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
938. # [22:40] * Joins: nimbu (~nimbu@192.150.10.203)
939. # [22:41] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@mac0536d0.tmodns.net)
940. # [22:43] * Joins: nessy (~silviapf@101.164.144.53)
941. # [22:46] * Quits: reyre (~reyre@142.204.133.18) (Remote host closed the connection)
942. # [22:47] * Joins: hasather (~hasather@cm-84.210.170.16.getinternet.no)
943. # [22:50] * Joins: nonge (~nonge@p5082B3FB.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
944. # [22:51] * Quits: hasather (~hasather@cm-84.210.170.16.getinternet.no) (Remote host closed the connection)
945. # [22:51] * Quits: svl (~me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl) (Quit: And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.)
946. # [22:51] * Joins: hasather (~hasather@cm-84.210.170.16.getinternet.no)
947. # [22:51] * Quits: garciawebdev (~garciaweb@11-223-235-201.fibertel.com.ar) (Remote host closed the connection)
948. # [22:55] * Quits: rubatdub (~khalil@213.188.180.185) (Quit: Quitte)
949. # [22:55] * Quits: hasather (~hasather@cm-84.210.170.16.getinternet.no) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
950. # [22:56] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@mac0536d0.tmodns.net) (Quit: tantek)
951. # [22:59] * Quits: TallTed (~Thud@63.119.36.36)
952. # [23:00] * Joins: jwalden (~waldo@2620:101:8003:200:3ea9:f4ff:fe34:6fd4)
953. # [23:02] * Quits: rniwa (~rniwa@17.212.154.114) (Quit: rniwa)
954. # [23:03] * Krinkle|detached is now known as Krinkle
955. # [23:03] * Quits: Maurice (copyman@5ED57922.cm-7-6b.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
956. # [23:04] * Joins: rniwa (~rniwa@17.212.154.114)
957. # [23:05] * Quits: nessy (~silviapf@101.164.144.53) (Quit: Leaving.)
958. # [23:12] * Joins: nessy (~silviapf@101.164.144.53)
959. # [23:12] * Krinkle is now known as Krinkle|detached
960. # [23:13] * Quits: felipeduardo (~felipedua@189.115.44.34) (Quit: aquele abraço..)
961. # [23:13] * Quits: nessy (~silviapf@101.164.144.53) (Client Quit)
962. # [23:16] * Quits: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@13.210-64-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be) (Quit: nn)
963. # [23:19] * Quits: nimbu (~nimbu@192.150.10.203) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
964. # [23:19] * Joins: nimbu (~nimbu@50-0-136-58.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net)
965. # [23:22] * Joins: lilmonkey (~colin@5469E6D4.cm-12-2d.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
966. # [23:22] * Quits: lilmonkey (~colin@5469E6D4.cm-12-2d.dynamic.ziggo.nl) (Changing host)
967. # [23:22] * Joins: lilmonkey (~colin@pdpc/supporter/professional/riven)
968. # [23:22] * Joins: Smylers (~smylers@host81-132-95-22.range81-132.btcentralplus.com)
969. # [23:23] * Joins: nimbu1 (~nimbu@sjfw1.adobe.com)
970. # [23:23] * Krinkle|detached is now known as Krinkle
971. # [23:24] * Quits: nimbu (~nimbu@50-0-136-58.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
972. # [23:26] * Quits: lilmonkey` (~colin@pdpc/supporter/professional/riven) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
973. # [23:32] * Quits: scor (~scor@drupal.org/user/52142/view) (Quit: scor)
974. # [23:32] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@17.114.110.242)
975. # [23:34] * Quits: jdaggett (~jdaggett@y230006.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp) (Quit: jdaggett)
976. # [23:38] * Quits: zkis (~zkis@87-93-193-51.bb.dnainternet.fi) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
977. # [23:39] * Quits: encryptd_fractal (~encryptd_@66-188-99-174.static.ftbg.wi.charter.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
978. # [23:45] * Quits: othermaciej (~mjs@17.114.110.242) (Quit: othermaciej)
979. # [23:45] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@17.114.110.242)
980. # [23:46] * Quits: othermaciej (~mjs@17.114.110.242) (Client Quit)
981. # [23:46] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@17.114.110.242)
982. # [23:47] * Parts: othermaciej (~mjs@17.114.110.242)
983. # [23:51] * Quits: TuRnaD0 (~Thunderbi@x1-6-e0-46-9a-1e-fe-ca.k368.webspeed.dk) (Remote host closed the connection)
984. # [23:51] * Joins: say2joe (~say2joe@209-253-225-97.ip.mcleodusa.net)
985. # [23:54] * Quits: marcosc (~marcosc@bl8-174-239.dsl.telepac.pt) (Remote host closed the connection)
986. # [23:54] * Joins: marcosc (~marcosc@bl8-174-239.dsl.telepac.pt)
987. # [23:56] * Quits: zdobersek (~zdobersek@cpe-77.38.31.63.cable.t-1.si) (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in)
988. # [23:59] * Quits: marcosc (~marcosc@bl8-174-239.dsl.telepac.pt) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
989. # Session Close: Thu Sep 05 00:00:00 2013

The end :)