/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2013-09-05 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Sep 05 00:00:00 2013
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] <annevk> Domenic_: I wondered whether it might be better to give you promises.spec.whatwg.org and note in dom.spec.whatwg.org the spec has moved
  4. # [00:00] <annevk> Domenic_: it seems you're doing a fine job of maintaining it and there's not really any good reason I can see for me to sit in the middle
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  15. # [00:33] <Hixie_> annevk: yt?
  16. # [00:35] <Hixie_> annevk: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-whatwg-archive/2013Jun/thread.html#msg207 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-whatwg-archive/2013Jul/thread.html#msg1 looks like a thread for your spec, but i don't see a response from you -- did it slip your radar or is it something you want me to deal with?
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  20. # [00:40] <annevk> Hixie_: we wontfixed that plan before that thread started, not sure if someone referenced the bug
  21. # [00:41] <Hixie_> could you update the people on the thread and respond to any novel points there or point people to where the points are already answered?
  22. # [00:41] <Hixie_> or i can, if you know what bug it was
  23. # [00:42] <annevk> Hixie_: yeah I guess I can, not now though
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  25. # [00:42] <Hixie_> k
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  52. # [01:21] <TabAtkins> What's an idiomatic way to write a "safe" version of a method for a spec to call (not overridable)? Define some operation abstractly, then for the actual method, just say "do foo"?
  53. # [01:23] <Hixie_> that's a sound way to do it
  54. # [01:23] <Hixie_> but i basically rely on invokations of methods from prose implicitly not going through idl
  55. # [01:23] <Hixie_> so it's always gonna call the "real" one
  56. # [01:23] <Hixie_> imho
  57. # [01:24] <TabAtkins> Yeah, I've depended on that before too. It seems silly to *not* depend on it, but shrug.
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  60. # [01:30] <TabAtkins> heycam: The [MapClass] section says that if you're manually implementing the Map methods, you *must* match the method signatures given there. CSSFontFeatureValuesMap doesn't do this, though: http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-fonts/#om-fontfeaturevalues
  61. # [01:31] <TabAtkins> Its value type is sequence<unsigned long>, but its set() method accepts (unsigned long or sequence<unsigned long>), with prose converting the former into the latter, and I think that's reasonable.
  62. # [01:31] <TabAtkins> heycam: Also, I'm now using SetClass, just by extrapolating from MapClass.
  63. # [01:32] <heycam> yeah, that's probably ok for the type to be a superset there. I'll make a note to allow that.
  64. # [01:32] <heycam> TabAtkins, where are you using SetClass btw?
  65. # [01:33] <TabAtkins> Font Load Events. I'll have a version uploaded in a moment.
  66. # [01:33] <heycam> ok
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  72. # [01:41] <TabAtkins> heycam: Okay, it's still under heavy editing churn at the moment, but the SetClass-relevant parts are in now: http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-font-load-events/#FontFaceSet-interface
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  74. # [01:42] <heycam> TabAtkins, I don't think you'd be able to inherit from EventTarget if you make it a SetClass
  75. # [01:42] <TabAtkins> EventTarget is dumb.
  76. # [01:43] <TabAtkins> It shouldn't be a superclass. :/
  77. # [01:43] <Hixie_> i tried to fight that
  78. # [01:43] <Hixie_> but lost.
  79. # [01:43] <Hixie_> people were like, "oh, you'll always be able to inherit from it"
  80. # [01:44] <Hixie_> TabAtkins: (you can cheat, just say "MyInterface implements EventTarget"... :-) )
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  83. # [01:44] <TabAtkins> Heh, that works.
  84. # [01:44] <TabAtkins> Also: those people were dumb. No. Bad.
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  139. # [04:52] <MikeSmith> is there an online JS linter to which you can just feed the URL for an HTML document and it'll check the contents of the <script> elements in the document ?
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  161. # [06:56] <Domenic_> dun-dun-DONE.... https://github.com/domenic/promises-unwrapping
  162. # [06:58] <TabAtkins> Is it implied that, when defining a foo() operation that calls bar() in one of its substeps, that if bar() throws an exception it'll propagate up and foo() will automatically throw it as well unless it specifically catches it?
  163. # [06:58] <TabAtkins> Like normal JS?
  164. # [06:59] <TabAtkins> Or do we have to explicitly catch and throw exceptions to avoid them being swallowed when doing spec-ese?
  165. # [07:08] <zewt> tab: i'm strongly in favor of always explicitly saying what to do with all exceptions from sub-algorithms; it should always be possible to read an algorithm in isolation and see what *all* of the logic paths are, without having to dig all the way into everything it calls in case something four levels deep might throw an exception
  166. # [07:11] <zewt> which really means specs shouldn't throw exceptions at all (all that makes exceptions exceptions is implicit stack unwinding); "exceptions" should really be return values, and only become actual exceptions when they propagate out of an API call
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  168. # [07:19] <TabAtkins> zewt: Well, I'm using API calls within spec definitions (with the implication that it's the internal operation, not the user-facing function object), so I can't easily do that.
  169. # [07:19] <TabAtkins> But sure, I can explicitly throw the exception.
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  201. # [10:08] <annevk> TabAtkins: I'm in favor of adopting JS semantics for that
  202. # [10:09] <annevk> TabAtkins: i.e. rethrow if an invoked algorithm throws, return terminates, throw terminates, etc.
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  204. # [10:10] <annevk> TabAtkins: haven't really spelled the conventions out yet though
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  228. # [11:20] <annevk> http://tomdale.net/2013/09/maybe-progressive-enhancement-is-the-wrong-term/ "This is a little bit like arguing that we should still be laying out our websites using tables and inline styles in case users disable CSS." I am disappoint
  229. # [11:27] <jgraham> annevk: Who is "everyone else"?
  230. # [11:28] <jgraham> Microsoft don't comment on whatwg
  231. # [11:28] <annevk> They actually did comment on that thread, forgot about that
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  233. # [11:33] <annevk> jgraham: but e.g. Apple, Opera, Intel, Samsung?
  234. # [11:35] <wilhelm> annevk: Why disappoint?
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  238. # [11:42] <annevk> wilhelm: because the argument doesn't make sense?
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  243. # [11:59] <annevk> Hixie_: replied
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  251. # [12:03] <wilhelm> annevk: It'a silly strawman, I agree. But his point still stands. Disabling JS was fine in 2003, but now it's a bit optimistic. (c:
  252. # [12:03] <annevk> wilhelm: I agree with JS being non-optional. I don't really agree with CSS being non-optional, although maybe it's true today.
  253. # [12:04] <annevk> wilhelm: although for many sites JS is optional still
  254. # [12:04] <annevk> hsivonen: are there bugs on Gecko for decoder EOF handling?
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  256. # [12:06] <wilhelm> Then we are in agreement. (c:
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  269. # [12:30] <zcorpan> jgraham: https://critic.hoppipolla.co.uk/r/257 the PR is closed. would it make sense for critic to drop reviews whose PR is closed?
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  274. # [12:52] <hsivonen> annevk: Yes. Gecko decoders don't know about EOF.
  275. # [12:53] <annevk> hsivonen: also see email, per jsbell we do the correct thing for the API
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  282. # [12:59] <annevk> Domenic_: https://github.com/domenic/promises-unwrapping/blob/master/README.md#propagatetoderivedp seems the note should refer to step 3
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  285. # [13:13] <jgraham> zcorpan: It is supposed to do that
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  287. # [13:13] <jgraham> But for some reason it doesn't work
  288. # [13:14] <jgraham> I'm not sure if we never get the message from github, or if the implementation is broken
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  290. # [13:23] <annevk> Domenic_: seems I have commit access, fixed
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  308. # [14:22] <zcorpan> jgraham: ok
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  390. # [16:45] <tobie_> annevk: re your question about test licensing this morning, the idea is to prevent an implementor from picking an choosing just the tests it passes then claiming full W3C conformance. You're still free to do that, but you can't claim the test suite created that way has anything to do with W3C.
  391. # [16:46] <Hixie_> you don't need copyright or a license to do that
  392. # [16:46] <Hixie_> just use trademark law
  393. # [16:47] <jgraham> Right
  394. # [16:47] <tobie_> I'm not suggesting this is the best/only way to do so. just describing the intent behind it.
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  396. # [16:47] <jgraham> For all intents and purposes the tests are BSD licensed
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  398. # [16:48] <tobie_> Would trademark law work outside of the U, though? (not a lawyer)
  399. # [16:48] <tobie_> s/U,/US/
  400. # [16:49] <jgraham> I'm not sure that there's anywhere that would respect copyright more than trademark law, but I might be wrong
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  402. # [16:50] <Hixie_> the real question is, is anyone really going to sue anyone if someone _does_ try to claim that they pass a twisted test suite?
  403. # [16:51] <wilhelm> Public shaming may be much more effective. And cheap.
  404. # [16:51] <tobie_> ^ that
  405. # [16:51] <jgraham> Hixie_: BTW I looked and afaict all the implementations I have access to treat the element-in-scope stuff as an algorithm that takes a tag name and operates on the stack of open elements at the time the information is required, rather than as an ambient property of the environment that is kept up to date
  406. # [16:52] <Hixie_> well yeah
  407. # [16:52] <Hixie_> doing it the other way would be massively inefficient
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  409. # [16:52] <Hixie_> the goals of a spec and the goals of implementations aren't the same
  410. # [16:52] <Hixie_> (obviously)
  411. # [16:52] <jgraham> Well it doesn't really make the spec more understandable if the way that you implement it and the way that you read the spec intentionally diverge
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  413. # [16:53] <Hixie_> there's very few parts of the spec where they _don't_ diverge
  414. # [16:53] <Hixie_> (and since implementations vary in how they implement things, that'll always be true)
  415. # [16:54] <jgraham> In this case the implementations all implement things in roughly the same way, and the spec could easily use that way, but instead uses something different and, apparently, confusing
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  417. # [16:55] <Hixie_> yeah. i don't understand what's confusing about it, but certainly some people are confused by it.
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  421. # [16:59] <annevk> jgraham: is there a pointer on how I contribute to web-platform-tests?
  422. # [17:00] <jgraham> annevk: Ask tobie_
  423. # [17:00] <annevk> jgraham: I might be just awake enough to move the tests from my URL repo
  424. # [17:00] <annevk> tobie_: ^^
  425. # [17:00] <jgraham> I don't understand the documentation situation anymore
  426. # [17:00] <jgraham> There is some replacement for the testtwf site that's supposed to have all this stuff on
  427. # [17:01] <tobie_> Working on getting this out asap
  428. # [17:01] <tobie_> was delayed by personal matters over the last couple of weeks.
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  430. # [17:02] <jgraham> Do you have an expected timeline?
  431. # [17:02] <tobie_> annevk: you probably want to look at https://github.com/w3c/testtwf-website/blob/gh-pages/docs/migration-process.md in the meantime
  432. # [17:02] <tobie_> jgraham: by the end of the week
  433. # [17:03] <jgraham> That sounds good
  434. # [17:03] <tobie_> (or early next)
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  448. # [17:20] <annevk> Hixie_: some people on Twitter got upset with your definition of resource
  449. # [17:21] <annevk> Hixie_: although I think you know and I don't really and none of it was constructive :/
  450. # [17:21] <annevk> care /\
  451. # [17:23] <Hixie_> annevk: my definition of resource?
  452. # [17:23] <annevk> Hixie_: https://twitter.com/mnot/status/375439468343209984 and onwards
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  456. # [17:28] <Hixie_> oh, \/\/hatever. it's a non-normative statement of fact. if they disagree they can learn to send feedback using real mechanisms.
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  458. # [17:29] <jgraham> Your feedback has been ignored because: [x] It was posted in a medium designed for sharing cat pictures
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  460. # [17:30] * renegade_ is now known as renegade8164
  461. # [17:33] <Hixie_> more like, your feedback has been considered and rejected but you have not received a personalised response becouse: [x] it was posted in a medium not designed for useful debate
  462. # [17:34] <zewt> more like "designed to prevent useful debate"
  463. # [17:34] <Hixie_> i doubt it was literally designed to prevent useful debate
  464. # [17:34] <jgraham> Well
  465. # [17:34] <jgraham> it's hard to imagine that they thought people would try and have debates in 140 characters
  466. # [17:35] <Hixie_> right
  467. # [17:35] <Hixie_> hence the way i phrased it
  468. # [17:35] <jgraham> I imagine that they conciously optimised for other use cases (sharing links to cat pictures)
  469. # [17:35] <Hixie_> yeah
  470. # [17:35] <Hixie_> can you dispatchEvent() the event you are currently handling?
  471. # [17:36] <Hixie_> or does that fail
  472. # [17:36] <Hixie_> and if it fails, is there a way to clone an event?
  473. # [17:37] <annevk> no way to clone
  474. # [17:37] <annevk> Hixie_: "If event's dispatch flag is set, or if its initialized flag is not set, throw an "InvalidStateError" exception. "
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  477. # [17:38] <Hixie_> k
  478. # [17:39] * Hixie_ manually creates a new event and copies all the state over
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  485. # [17:46] <annevk> Hixie_: I hope this isn't in a spec
  486. # [17:46] <annevk> Hixie_: also, if you have a use case...
  487. # [17:46] <Hixie_> not in a spec
  488. # [17:47] <Hixie_> my use case is, when i get a resize event, i want to dispatch it to the currently visible "panel"
  489. # [17:47] <annevk> new Event(evObj) could work maybe
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  491. # [17:47] <annevk> although there's some trickery with regards to types and what to clone, etc.
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  493. # [17:47] <annevk> I guess each event object would only clone from the passed event what they know about, although even then you have to be careful about identically named members
  494. # [17:48] <zewt> iirc i've had to manually "clone" events, in cases where i intercept a real event in a capture, do something else, then want to re-fire the original event later
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  503. # [17:59] <annevk> Too bad people don't really report those kind of things as annoyances... Btw zewt, are you gonna update the Zip wiki entry?
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  514. # [18:19] <zewt> haven't had a chance, I want to go through the appinfo again first, see what needs additional specification and how brittle doing it by delta instead of clean slate seems...
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  519. # [18:25] <annevk> zewt: aight
  520. # [18:25] <annevk> zewt: no hurry I suppose, need to figure out a ton of other stuff anyway
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  534. # [18:58] <reyre> zcorpan: ping
  535. # [18:58] <zcorpan> reyre: pong
  536. # [18:59] * zcorpan is on a flaky connection
  537. # [18:59] <reyre> zcorpan: can you point out to me where <track> has 'onload' and 'onerror'? i'm having trouble finding it
  538. # [18:59] <Ms2ger> Probably on HTMLElement or whatever
  539. # [18:59] <Ms2ger> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/webappapis.html#globaleventhandlers
  540. # [18:59] <reyre> Ms2ger: i'm looking at HTMLTrackElement, but don't see it
  541. # [18:59] <Ms2ger> HTMLElement implements GlobalEventHandlers;
  542. # [18:59] <Ms2ger> interface HTMLTrackElement : HTMLElement {
  543. # [19:00] <reyre> Ms2ger: ah okay
  544. # [19:01] <reyre> so we have to specify when HTMLTrackElement should emit these events
  545. # [19:01] <reyre> correct?
  546. # [19:01] <reyre> otherwise it would just be the default from HTMLElement
  547. # [19:02] <zcorpan> reyre: "Queue a task to first change the text track readiness state to failed to load and then fire a simple event named error at the track element." http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/the-video-element.html#start-the-track-processing-model
  548. # [19:03] <zcorpan> reyre: and:
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  550. # [19:03] <zcorpan> If the file was successfully processed, fire a simple event named load at the track element.
  551. # [19:03] <zcorpan> Otherwise, the file was not successfully processed (e.g. the format in question is an XML format and the file contained a well-formedness error that the XML specification requires be detected and reported to the application); fire a simple event named error at the track element.
  552. # [19:05] <reyre> zcorpan: okay cool, thank you for that
  553. # [19:05] <reyre> this should be enough for our needs
  554. # [19:05] <reyre> in regards to that bug
  555. # [19:05] <zcorpan> ok. i think there are tests for the events in https://critic.hoppipolla.co.uk/r/74
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  557. # [19:07] <zcorpan> at least the CORS tests rely on load/error events
  558. # [19:07] <reyre> zcorpan: nice, book marking that now, thanks :)
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  561. # [19:08] <zcorpan> reyre: if you find issues with the tests, please raise in the review
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  563. # [19:09] <reyre> zcorpan: will do
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  569. # [19:10] <zcorpan> reyre: what does gecko do wrt the MIME type for <track>? (see yellow box in the spec linked to above)
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  572. # [19:19] <reyre> zcorpan: we check for 'text/vtt', and i'm not exactly sure *what* happens in the underlying code there as it goes through the networking library which i don't know much about
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  577. # [19:32] <zcorpan> reyre: ok. presto ignores the mime type for <track>. check http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/2509 and change the type or the signature in opera 12.x
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  591. # [20:02] <GPHemsley> Even employees of the Government of Canada don't know how to read directions.
  592. # [20:02] <GPHemsley> And yet somehow I have more empathy for them.
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  654. # [22:25] * heycam|away is now known as heycam
  655. # [22:29] <Ms2ger> ... CSS3Test.com?
  656. # [22:29] <miketaylr> looks legit, has ads
  657. # [22:31] <Ms2ger> I thought Lea had more brains than that
  658. # [22:32] * Krinkle|detached is now known as Krinkle
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  660. # [22:33] <TabAtkins> The numbers are useless as always, but the actual results look useful.
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  663. # [22:36] <jgraham> TabAtkins: Isn't this the opposite? The numbers are "useful" but the results are useless (except in a caniuse sense)
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  665. # [22:37] <jgraham> (of course the numbers aren't actually useful)
  666. # [22:37] <TabAtkins> No, knowing that a browser does/doesn't parse something is pretty useful.
  667. # [22:37] * Hixie_ really is at a loss as to what mnot and company were complaining about
  668. # [22:38] <Hixie_> oh well
  669. # [22:38] * jgraham refers Hixie to the previous conversation about twitter
  670. # [22:38] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@17.114.218.224)
  671. # [22:38] <jgraham> But at a guess, your concept of "resource" doesn't map exactly to the http concept
  672. # [22:39] <Hixie_> what on earth is the http concept of origin, if it doesn't match the change mnot was complaining about?
  673. # [22:40] <jgraham> s/origin/resource/
  674. # [22:41] <jgraham> ?
  675. # [22:41] <Hixie_> uh, yeah, sorry
  676. # [22:41] <Hixie_> too many balls in the air over here
  677. # [22:41] <Hixie_> TabAtkins: what's the place to look for for the definition of "replaced element" these days?
  678. # [22:41] <TabAtkins> css 2.1
  679. # [22:41] <Hixie_> is http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS2/ the latest version of that?
  680. # [22:42] <TabAtkins> Yes.
  681. # [22:42] <Hixie_> thanks
  682. # [22:43] <Domenic_> hmm interesting css 2.1 base spec is still useful for things?
  683. # [22:44] <SimonSapin> yes, many parts of it do not yet have a level 3 equivalent
  684. # [22:44] <TabAtkins> Yeah, we obsolete parts as we write specs to replace them.
  685. # [22:44] <TabAtkins> Until then 2.1 is still authoritative.
  686. # [22:44] <Domenic_> huh, interesting
  687. # [22:44] <Domenic_> Location: http://css3test.com/ Access has been blocked as the threat Mal/HTMLGen-A has been found on this website. O__o
  688. # [22:44] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: are any parts explicitly obsoleted?
  689. # [22:45] <SimonSapin> I mean other by the existence of another document
  690. # [22:45] <TabAtkins> SimonSapin: No, unfortunately. It would be nice to maintain such a list. Perhaps in the snapshot.
  691. # [22:45] <TabAtkins> I expect we'll be publishing another one of those this year, since we have several specs in CR or Rec now.
  692. # [22:46] * Ms2ger would just pull all the parts of css2 that are still relevant into modules and publish those as recs as-is
  693. # [22:46] <SimonSapin> interesting
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  700. # [22:57] <gsnedders> Ms2ger: As CSS 3 modules?
  701. # [22:58] <gsnedders> https://github.com/html5lib/html5lib-python/issues/111 — is that expectation right?
  702. # [22:58] <SimonSapin> I we would still call them "Level 2", but as CSS modules yes
  703. # [22:58] <gsnedders> I'd just push them as CSS 3 FPWDs
  704. # [22:58] <SimonSapin> I think*
  705. # [22:58] <gsnedders> Lot less work to get them as FPWDs than RECs
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  711. # [23:04] <Hixie_> TabAtkins: "technically" in what sense?
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  713. # [23:04] <Hixie_> i don't understand your e-mail
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  715. # [23:04] <TabAtkins> In "it's treated as replaced element by the spec".
  716. # [23:04] <Hixie_> which spec? the html spec doesn't, that's what bz was asking for
  717. # [23:05] <TabAtkins> But browsers treat it as something much closer to a normal element.
  718. # [23:05] <TabAtkins> Hmm, actually not quite sure. Does HTML define other elements as replaced?
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  720. # [23:06] <Hixie_> http://whatwg.org/html#replaced-elements
  721. # [23:07] <TabAtkins> I don't see *any* of the form controls here.
  722. # [23:07] * Joins: cballenar (~Adium@pool-71-179-15-137.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net)
  723. # [23:07] <cballenar> whatup :)
  724. # [23:08] <Hixie_> TabAtkins: correct :-)
  725. # [23:08] <SimonSapin> Domenic_: IMO, the parts of CSS 2.1 that are still relevant are most of chapters 8 to 12, and appendix E. Everything else has a Level 3 spec that I consider "good"
  726. # [23:08] <TabAtkins> Well, that's definitely wrong. Form elements have definitely been *considered to be* replaced elements, at least, for a very long time. Browsers allow an inconsistent set of properties to affect them, though.
  727. # [23:09] <cballenar> @lilmonkey, I apologize for my attitude, I see what you meant, clearly the example I posed was incorrect and went against all good practices for the web.
  728. # [23:11] <gsnedders> SimonSapin: Not App H?
  729. # [23:11] <cballenar> lilmonkey: though u weren't exactly the easiest person to deal with… ok now i'm done… :)
  730. # [23:11] <lilmonkey> cballenar: if you have something to tell me, you can PM me. It is of no concern to this channel.
  731. # [23:11] <cballenar> i never use IRC, this thing still confuses the hell out of me…
  732. # [23:11] <SimonSapin> gsnedders: Appendix H? That doesn’t seem to exist…
  733. # [23:12] <gsnedders> SimonSapin: Go to App G and press next. It exists.
  734. # [23:12] <SimonSapin> oh
  735. # [23:12] <Hixie_> TabAtkins: well, buttons are just inline-block elements. similar things apply to some of the others.
  736. # [23:12] <SimonSapin> well, we probably don’t need to make a new L3 spec for this one :)
  737. # [23:12] <gsnedders> Hixie_: We don't care about parse errors that can only be hit in the scripting enabled case, do we?
  738. # [23:13] <gsnedders> Hixie_: Given they cannot be checked by a conformance checker.
  739. # [23:13] <gsnedders> Hixie_: Unless, of course, it has solved the halting problem. :)
  740. # [23:13] <Hixie_> gsnedders: you can report such errors in a js console
  741. # [23:13] <gsnedders> Hixie_: I am aware.
  742. # [23:13] * Joins: Smylers (~smylers@host81-132-95-22.range81-132.btcentralplus.com)
  743. # [23:14] <Hixie_> so we care
  744. # [23:14] <gsnedders> Hixie_: You don't define "control character" anywhere.
  745. # [23:15] <rniwa> wycats: yt?
  746. # [23:16] <Hixie_> gsnedders: is it used in a normative sense?
  747. # [23:16] <Hixie_> ah, yes
  748. # [23:16] <Hixie_> it's a term from unicode
  749. # [23:16] <gsnedders> "must not contain control characters other than space characters", phrasing content.
  750. # [23:16] <gsnedders> Yes, obviously.
  751. # [23:16] * Joins: nessy (~silviapf@101.164.144.53)
  752. # [23:17] <gsnedders> Just whether you care about defining it explicitly.
  753. # [23:17] <gsnedders> (Presumably to be all characters in Gc C*)
  754. # [23:18] <gsnedders> (Or just Cc?)
  755. # [23:18] <gsnedders> Cc is control.
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  759. # [23:21] <Hixie_> yeah working on it
  760. # [23:23] <Ms2ger> SimonSapin, you knew that people spent time to make sure the first letters of the appendix titles matched up, right? :)
  761. # [23:23] <gsnedders> SimonSapin, Ms2ger: it is rather obvious given how contrived they end up.
  762. # [23:23] <gsnedders> (Sorry Hixie)
  763. # [23:24] <Ms2ger> Yeah... I mean, "Elaborate description"?
  764. # [23:24] <Hixie_> well, it _is_ elaborate
  765. # [23:24] <Hixie_> the most telling sign is the lack of an "H" appendix
  766. # [23:24] <gsnedders> Well, yes. But you'd still not ordinarily call it that.
  767. # [23:24] <Hixie_> IT IS ELABORATE.
  768. # [23:24] * Ms2ger pats Hixie_ on the back
  769. # [23:25] <SimonSapin> Ms2ger: I did not
  770. # [23:25] <gsnedders> Hixie_: So is the HTML parser. Rename that to the Elaborate description of the HTML Parsing algorithm.
  771. # [23:25] * gsnedders awaits the next commit
  772. # [23:26] <SimonSapin> I got involved after 2.1 became REC
  773. # [23:26] <SimonSapin> that probably explains why appendix E is an appendix at all, although it seems like a bad reason
  774. # [23:28] <Hixie_> it was an appendix before the naming joke started
  775. # [23:28] <Hixie_> gsnedders: the html spec has lots and lots of jokes, doesn't need to copy css' :-)
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  777. # [23:28] * Quits: scor (scor@drupal.org/user/52142/view) (Quit: scor)
  778. # [23:30] <gsnedders> Are there any Cc characters outwith latin1?
  779. # [23:31] * Quits: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@13.210-64-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be) (Quit: nn)
  780. # [23:31] <SimonSapin> http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/category/Cc/list.htm says no
  781. # [23:31] <Hixie_> no
  782. # [23:31] <Hixie_> they're C0 and C1 and that's it
  783. # [23:31] <gsnedders> Right, okay.
  784. # [23:35] <wycats> rniwa: what's up?
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  786. # [23:35] <rniwa> wycats: hi
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  798. # Session Close: Fri Sep 06 00:00:00 2013

The end :)