/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2013-09-06 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Sep 06 00:00:00 2013
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  7. # [00:04] <gsnedders> Wait, I should be submitting bugs, not emails, shouldn't I? Not that Hixie cares.
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  12. # [00:07] <gsnedders> jgraham: Does html5lib need to match the current spec for 1.0?
  13. # [00:07] * gsnedders votes no
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  15. # [00:07] <gsnedders> For the sake of shipping.
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  18. # [00:10] <Hixie_> gsnedders: bugs and e-mails are equivalent for html
  19. # [00:10] <Hixie_> just don't do both
  20. # [00:10] <zewt> it's like crossing the streams
  21. # [00:12] <gsnedders> :)
  22. # [00:13] <gsnedders> Also, we should totally make expected behaviour clearer for when the input stream is a sequence of Unicode codepoints.
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  24. # [00:13] <gsnedders> e.g., parsing a unicode string in most modern languages.
  25. # [00:13] <Hixie_> i thought we did that recently
  26. # [00:13] <gsnedders> Did we?
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  28. # [00:13] <gsnedders> It's better, but not entirely clear.
  29. # [00:13] <Hixie_> there's a new section or something
  30. # [00:13] <gsnedders> Will look later.
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  41. # [00:22] <MikeSmith> anybody know what people normally use for parsing json in java? I see there's a javax.json but that seems to be separate jsr
  42. # [00:22] <zewt> Hixie_: are you still going through the "blurry lines" thread? my suggestion was essentially to allow optional pixel snapping (as well as a way to make pixel alignment easier), without making it the default and screwing up animations
  43. # [00:23] <Hixie_> i just replied to that entire thread
  44. # [00:23] <zewt> (i made an attempt at describing how the actual mechanics would work, but I don't know enough about the details of canvas paths, so it's probably not a very good attempt)
  45. # [00:23] <Hixie_> pixel snapping just makes things ugly
  46. # [00:23] <zewt> well, you asked how exactly we want it to work, and I already gave one answer to that
  47. # [00:25] <zewt> depends on what you're rendering; it definitely shouldn't be the default
  48. # [00:25] <Hixie_> i didn't see anything in the thread that was detailed enough to count as an answer :-)
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  52. # [00:28] <zewt> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-whatwg-archive/2013Jul/0342.html i think any more detail than that would be getting ahead of the discussion
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  55. # [00:29] <zewt> (i don't know enough about canvas paths or implementations to know if it's a direction even worth following in any more detail)
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  58. # [00:31] <zewt> afk
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  92. # [01:56] <Hixie_> zewt: "causes coordinates to be snapped to integers" is just a fancy way of saying "pixel snapping".
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  95. # [02:05] <zewt> Hixie_: well yes, since that's the whole point :)
  96. # [02:07] <gsnedders> Oooh! Producivity win! Nabbed one of the (few) desks at SFO.
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  98. # [02:09] <zewt> it's probably true that it's only really useful with rectangles, like borders and backgrounds of boxes (though it also works with rectangles with rounded corners, etc)
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  100. # [02:09] <zewt> (it shouldn't cause problems with things like circles, but it isn't helpful either)
  101. # [02:11] <Hixie_> there's an entire api of stuff. you don't know when drawing a moveTo() command if the next thing is gonna be a line or an arc. you don't know whether it's going to be rotated or scaled or what.
  102. # [02:11] <Hixie_> so
  103. # [02:11] <Hixie_> it would need much more detail
  104. # [02:13] <zewt> well the point of the way I tried to picture it was to avoid having to know or care where the coordinates are going, and the snapping happens after the transform so rotations and scales are applied
  105. # [02:17] <zewt> (but like I said, there's a lot of Canvas I don't know about and that only handles the simple "call moveTo() or rect() and draw immediately" cases--for example, I don't know anything about Path objects--so I acknowledge the chances of that being a practical solution in general are small)
  106. # [02:17] <Hixie_> so it snaps all coordinates? even, like, arcs?
  107. # [02:18] <zewt> sure, because it's only snapping the "initial" coordinates--the ones you pass to the API (after the transform), not the coordinates of the stuff that gets drawn (like the individual pixels or slices or whatever of the circle)
  108. # [02:19] <zewt> (it could be selective as to which commands it's actually applied on; no real sense in preventing fractional circle radiuses, after all)
  109. # [02:20] <zewt> i guess I don't know how it would work with Path objects, glancing over the API a bit; the transform when the path is ultimately drawn may be completely different, so snapping at the time you create the Path doesn't make any sense
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  111. # [02:21] <Hixie_> i don't understand "the ones you pass to the API (after the transform)"
  112. # [02:21] <Hixie_> what api?
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  115. # [02:23] <zewt> canvas path functions, eg. rect()
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  117. # [02:25] <zewt> all values that are transformed (including line widths, or else it wouldn't work)
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  119. # [02:27] <zewt> (i guess coordinates would need to be rounded to the nearest pixel center, not the nearest integer)
  120. # [02:29] <Hixie_> i don't understand what this means in practice in the canvas api.
  121. # [02:32] <zewt> if you have a scale of 0.5, and you call rect(11, 11, 3, 3), the top-left and bottom-right coordinates, after the transform, are (5.5, 5.5) and (7, 7); the rounding would happen at that point, to (5,5),(7,7), which is what would actually be used to render.
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  124. # [02:33] <zewt> (or 5.5/7.5, if it's pixel-centered coordinates that are needed, which is probably the case)
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  127. # [02:35] <zewt> i'm not sure I can explain it any better, and I'm pretty sure if you want to add pixel snapping to Canvas you don't actually need my help, but I'm happy to continue if wanted :)
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  158. # [04:33] <cabanier> Hixie_: as zewt said, the coordinates are snapped so the initial draw fills a device pixel. (This is usually not an integer coordinate)
  159. # [04:35] <cabanier> Hixie_: the flash people told me that they're snapping the control points too but I don't understand why that's needed
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  213. # [09:08] <Ms2ger> Hmm? gsnedders is in SFO?
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  250. # [11:11] <jgraham> Ms2ger: Well probably not any more. If I had stolen a desk there I wouldn't hang around to get caught
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  252. # [11:13] <jgraham> gsnedders: In which respect would we be non-compliant? In general I think shipping is good, and am more worried by the sanitizer thing, which maybe you have fixed, than precise compliance with the spec in recent changes or extreme adge cases
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  279. # [12:58] <Ms2ger> Anyone feel like a bit of WebIDL spec wrangling?
  280. # [12:58] <Ms2ger> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=913417
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  284. # [13:16] <zcorpan> Ms2ger: http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/2510
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  289. # [13:33] <Ms2ger> So now we get a bug about "document.createElement('select').__proto__ = {};" not working
  290. # [13:33] * Ms2ger is baffled
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  292. # [13:35] <zcorpan> i guess http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/WebIDL/#defineownproperty is the right section (for the first thing)
  293. # [13:37] <zcorpan> which should skip to step 4 for 'n' and window, i think
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  307. # [14:42] <zcorpan> wonder why twitter censored this image for me https://twitter.com/BRIAN_____/status/375923038908211200
  308. # [14:44] <tomasf> NSA did it
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  327. # [15:31] <zcorpan> are web-platform-tests PRs on w3c-test.org somewhere?
  328. # [15:31] <zcorpan> found it
  329. # [15:33] <zcorpan> 319 isn't there yet
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  332. # [15:37] <darobin> zcorpan: you want annevk's PR up there?
  333. # [15:37] <darobin> I don't think he's in the maintainers
  334. # [15:37] <zcorpan> darobin: ya
  335. # [15:38] <darobin> zcorpan: I mirrored it
  336. # [15:38] <darobin> I reckon we could trust that annevk guy
  337. # [15:39] <Ms2ger> Probably
  338. # [15:39] <darobin> I've added both annevk and zcorpan
  339. # [15:40] <darobin> zcorpan, annevk: this means that your PRs are automatically mirrored, and that you can always add a "w3c-test:mirror" comment to any PR to cause it to mirror
  340. # [15:41] <Ms2ger> And you can merge things, I assume
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  342. # [15:41] <darobin> please make sure that the PRs you authorise do not contain untrusted executable code, typically PHP
  343. # [15:41] <darobin> yeah, and other adminy stuff
  344. # [15:42] <zcorpan> i thought PHP wasn't synced automatically?
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  346. # [15:43] <zcorpan> darobin: thx
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  348. # [15:46] <darobin> zcorpan: the new system is that PRs by trusted people, or vetted by them with the special magic comment, are synced; others aren't
  349. # [15:47] <zcorpan> darobin: i see
  350. # [15:47] <jgraham> It isn't really easy to not sync PHP automatically
  351. # [15:47] <jgraham> Although I guess we could
  352. # [15:47] <jgraham> Anyway this system works at the moment
  353. # [15:47] <darobin> yeah it works
  354. # [15:47] <zcorpan> yeah i'm not arguing either way
  355. # [15:48] <darobin> well, apart from the bit where I always have to look at old PRs to remember what the magic comment is :)
  356. # [15:54] <jgraham> I just look at the source code :p
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  370. # [16:15] <annevk> Trust me? Muhahaha
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  374. # [16:20] <Ms2ger> Oh dear
  375. # [16:20] <Ms2ger> What have we done...
  376. # [16:21] <annevk> zcorpan: so euh. I think generic utility features that unravel tricky CSS bits, such as CSS escapes, is basically a win
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  378. # [16:22] <annevk> zcorpan: I guess figure out if they're relatively cheap to add first, but if so, I tend to think we should expose more of those primitives
  379. # [16:24] <zcorpan> annevk: sure, but it's still useful to know what the use cases are. for instance, do we also need an API to unescape?
  380. # [16:24] <zcorpan> do we need an API to convert between a quoted and unquoted font-family name?
  381. # [16:26] <annevk> maybe a toCSSString() or some such
  382. # [16:26] <annevk> but yeah, fair enough
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  386. # [16:28] <jgraham> odinho: http://w3c-test.org/web-platform-tests/master/IndexedDB/submissions/Opera/invalid/idbfactory_deleteDatabase.htm huh?
  387. # [16:28] <jgraham> Can these files be deleted?
  388. # [16:29] <Ms2ger> odinho, and can you review all the idb tests? :)
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  398. # [16:45] <annevk> The patience of hsivonen explaining to people why sniffing for utf-8 is a bad idea is something to be greatly admired.
  399. # [16:45] <Ms2ger> hsivonen in general
  400. # [16:47] <zewt> (sniffing has its places, as long as it's strictly defined; for example, it may be hard to avoid for ZIPs)
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  403. # [16:48] <wilhelm> Does Mozilla have any statistics on how often Firefox features are used? (I'm wondering whether anyone uses the 'zoom text only' feature.)
  404. # [16:48] <annevk> zewt: I don't think anyone disagrees there
  405. # [16:48] <annevk> Ms2ger: true
  406. # [16:48] <zewt> i use that a lot (zoom text makes things a lot easier to read, but zooming images makes everything blurry)
  407. # [16:48] <Ms2ger> wilhelm, we can get that set up
  408. # [16:52] <wilhelm> Ms2ger: That would be very interesting. The reason for why I'm wondering is this: Using media queries, I essentially have four different designs for sites I'm building. I have a 4-column, 3-column, 2-column and 1-column design. They sort of map to the screen sizes of a laptop, a landscape tablet, a portrait tablet and a phone. If you zoom in with the normal page zoom, the page magically reformats to fit your screen. A zoomed page on a laptop may ...
  409. # [16:53] <wilhelm> ... give you the 2-column layout, which is readable and nice.
  410. # [16:53] <wilhelm> If you use the "zoom text only" feature, you're screwed with this approach.
  411. # [16:53] <Ms2ger> hsivonen has set up something like that for the encoding override menu, I suppose he can give pointers
  412. # [16:55] <wilhelm> Ooh.
  413. # [16:55] <wilhelm> hsivonen: I'll buy you a case of beverages of your choice in exchange for information here. (c;
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  416. # [17:00] <wilhelm> zewt: Do you try the other zoom first, or do you go straight for text zoom? Do you have any trouble with it?
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  418. # [17:01] <hsivonen> wilhelm: http://telemetry-dash.mozilla.org/
  419. # [17:01] <hsivonen> wilhelm: I don't see a variable for that in the middle menu
  420. # [17:01] <zewt> i don't fiddle much with zoom on a per-site basis, it's not too uncommon for it to do odd things to layouts though
  421. # [17:01] <hsivonen> wilhelm: could be added
  422. # [17:02] <hsivonen> wilhelm: http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/search?string=gatherCharsetMenuTelemetry for example code
  423. # [17:02] <hsivonen> (afk)
  424. # [17:03] <wilhelm> hsivonen: Oh, interesting.
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  454. # [17:54] <annevk> Using Bugzilla for issue tracking in standards is so useful.
  455. # [17:56] <Ms2ger> ^
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  460. # [18:06] <annevk> marcosc: you seem to have your bugmail turned off, I just resolved one of your bugs: https://www.w3.org/bugzilla_public/show_bug.cgi?id=22336
  461. # [18:06] <jgraham> I love tests that play audio
  462. # [18:06] <marcosc> annevk: strange... I get bugmail everyday
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  465. # [18:09] <marcosc> annevk: go to fetch (http://fetch.spec.whatwg.org/), and hit print preview.
  466. # [18:09] <marcosc> Then you might appriciate the problem at bit ;)
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  480. # [18:30] <Ms2ger> RESOLVED MOVED?
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  486. # [18:38] <annevk> Ms2ger: made sense to me
  487. # [18:38] <annevk> Ms2ger: no idea what it's for though
  488. # [18:39] <marcosc> RESOLVED MOVED: "you resolved it by making someone else's problem"
  489. # [18:39] <marcosc> I like that :)
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  494. # [18:44] <jsbell> I want one of Hixie's imaginary displays with rotating pixels.
  495. # [18:49] <annevk> So in http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/FormData if you do fd.append("tralal", blob); and then x = fd.get("tralal"); x != blob depending on whether blob is a Blob or a File
  496. # [18:49] <jgraham> Hmm, it would have been really nice if the whole treeview thing had happened
  497. # [18:50] <annevk> That seems bad for a map-like
  498. # [18:50] <annevk> Although I guess you also get that for URLQuery if you pass in something that's then toString()'d
  499. # [18:50] <annevk> So maybe it's okay...
  500. # [18:50] <annevk> jgraham: whole treeview thing?
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  502. # [18:55] <annevk> So... Surrogates, how do you work with FormData and multipart/form-data?
  503. # [18:57] <jgraham> annevk: There was a plan to have a tree-like datastructure in HTML
  504. # [18:57] <jgraham> It died
  505. # [18:57] <annevk> <datagrid>
  506. # [18:58] <annevk> ?
  507. # [18:58] <jgraham> Yeah, that sounds right
  508. # [18:58] <annevk> http://blog.whatwg.org/this-week-in-html-5-episode-31 "This big news this week is the <datagrid> element. This is a brand spanking new element introduced in r2962."
  509. # [18:59] <annevk> There might be another entry mourning its demise, dunno.
  510. # [18:59] <annevk> Hah, <keygen> is the next bit of news, still there...
  511. # [19:02] <zewt> <keygen>? what next, <tetris>
  512. # [19:03] <zewt> <tetris> would make more sense, heh
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  517. # [19:20] <Domenic_> do data URLs count as cross origin? O_o
  518. # [19:20] <Domenic_> I seem to have tainted my canvas by writing data URLs into it?
  519. # [19:20] <annevk> Domenic_: does that happen in Gecko or WebKit?
  520. # [19:20] <Ms2ger> WebKit, probably
  521. # [19:20] <Domenic_> annevk: webkit yeah
  522. # [19:21] <Domenic_> (blink)
  523. # [19:21] <Domenic_> fuuuu
  524. # [19:21] <annevk> Yeah they have a bug which they think is not a bug and we haven't resolved it one or another and it's annoying...
  525. # [19:21] <Domenic_> oh nooo
  526. # [19:22] <Domenic_> my html -> svg -> data URL -> img -> canvas -> do crazy pixellation effects on the canvas plan is falling apart
  527. # [19:22] <annevk> Recommend everyone to use Firefox -_-
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  530. # [19:26] <Domenic_> ok new plan is html -> svg -> server HTTP handler -> same-origin SVG image -> canvas -> do crazy pixellation
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  538. # [19:40] <annevk> Hmm, it seems like FormData might not need to care about "type" for form data set
  539. # [19:41] <annevk> It's only used by text/plain and application/x-www-form-urlencoded
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  542. # [19:43] <Domenic_> oh damn
  543. # [19:43] <Domenic_> it's because http://www.w3.org/2000/svg is cross-origin
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  549. # [19:50] * GPHemsley also prints things in order to read/study them better
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  561. # [20:22] <Ms2ger> Meaningless statistic of the day: "web-platform-tests took an estimated 84 years of effort"
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  647. # [23:21] * Quits: svl (~me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl) (Quit: And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.)
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  667. # Session Close: Sat Sep 07 00:00:00 2013

The end :)