/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2013-09-11 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Sep 11 00:00:00 2013
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  6. # [00:09] <annevk> smaug____: was getting food and such, gonna watch a series and sleep soon though
  7. # [00:11] <smaug____> annevk: it was just about http://logbot.glob.com.au/?c=content#c128978
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  9. # [00:12] <say2joe> Damn, Hixie_ i didn't know people could be so wrong (sarcastic) lol
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  12. # [00:14] <say2joe> you should reply… "how about them apples" (in reference to Mr. Krubner's work as an apple picker in an orchard as well as his "extensive" experience with Apple products / programming).
  13. # [00:14] <annevk> smaug____: ah yeah, you mentioned that before
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  15. # [00:14] <annevk> I should get better at filing bugs I guess
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  18. # [00:16] <smaug____> well, that is why some automatic tool might be good. In the case the spec change is significant, implementation bugs would be filed when committing the spec change
  19. # [00:17] <smaug____> hopefully wouldn't cause more work for spec authors
  20. # [00:18] <annevk> we could have a commit hook in GitHub I suppose
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  22. # [00:19] <annevk> I guess Bugzilla has an API?
  23. # [00:19] <annevk> I could look into this I suppose, might be interesting for other browser projects too
  24. # [00:20] <smaug____> bugzilla has some API yes
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  26. # [00:22] <annevk> I need an intern to do stuff like this :p
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  32. # [00:31] <jamesr_`> if i'm reading things correctly the <dialog>'s UI always shows up in the top layer of the document the element is in, right?
  33. # [00:31] <jamesr_`> meaning if you have a <dialog> inside an <iframe> the dialog is constrained within the iframe?
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  35. # [00:32] <jamesr_`> is there any way to break out?
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  37. # [00:34] <jamesr_`> Hixie_: ^^ ?
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  39. # [00:35] <zewt> wow, now even amazon has product listing items that are fake javascript links that i can't middle-click
  40. # [00:35] <zewt> ww3
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  48. # [01:07] <Hixie_> jamesr_`: there's no way to break out of an iframe currently, right
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  50. # [01:09] <jamesr_`> Hixie_: that means you can't use <dialog> as a clickjacking mitigation
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  52. # [01:09] <jamesr_`> has there been much discussion about this?
  53. # [01:09] <Hixie_> jamesr_`: there's lots of things you can't use it for, sure
  54. # [01:10] <Hixie_> i don't think you'd ever be able to use it as a click-jacking mitigation -- i mean, there's no way we can allow a cross-origin iframe to break out of itself over a different-origin iframe
  55. # [01:10] <Hixie_> that's a huge spoofing risk
  56. # [01:10] <Hixie_> would just enable reverse clickjacking
  57. # [01:10] <jamesr_`> i get the spoofing concern although i'm not sure what reverse clickjacking is
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  59. # [01:16] <Hixie_> the inner iframe click-jacking the outer frame
  60. # [01:16] <Hixie_> i.e. spoofing
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  97. # [03:43] <jamesr_`> zewt: you consider macbooks to be 'mobile' instead of 'desktop'?
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  117. # [05:05] <Yuhong> Interestingly, Acid3 itself renders differently in real IE7 and IE8 in IE7 standards mode.
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  121. # [05:09] <Yuhong> Interestingly, Acid3 itself renders differently between real IE7 and IE8 in IE7 standards mode.
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  123. # [05:12] <Yuhong> Using IE developer toolbar in IE7 with Acid3 open I was able to easily crash IE7 with a null pointer.
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  150. # [07:35] <slartsa> odinho: thanks, but I don't understand what you mean
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  194. # [09:46] <zcorpan> annevk: ok i reviewed https://critic.hoppipolla.co.uk/r/300
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  201. # [10:25] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: I don't find a definition of "whitespace" in http://dev.w3.org/csswg/mediaqueries4/
  202. # [10:26] <MikeSmith> SimonSapin: ↑
  203. # [10:26] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: look in css-syntax
  204. # [10:26] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: ok
  205. # [10:27] <zcorpan> but media queries should probably define its whitespace since they don't always come from a css file
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  207. # [10:28] <MikeSmith> well it should also normatively reference some definition of whatever it means by it
  208. # [10:28] <MikeSmith> so I find http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-syntax/#whitespace-diagram
  209. # [10:28] <MikeSmith> and http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-syntax/#newline-diagram
  210. # [10:28] <MikeSmith> space, tabl
  211. # [10:28] <MikeSmith> oops
  212. # [10:29] <MikeSmith> space, tab, \n, \r\n, \r, \f
  213. # [10:29] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: which matches the definition in the HTML spec of whitespace, right?
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  215. # [10:30] <MikeSmith> I find that the current media-queries checker in the validator doesn't allow \f
  216. # [10:31] <MikeSmith> oh wait
  217. # [10:31] <MikeSmith> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-syntax/#whitespace
  218. # [10:31] <MikeSmith> ah that's the same
  219. # [10:31] <MikeSmith> A newline, U+0009 CHARACTER TABULATION, or U+0020 SPACE.
  220. # [10:31] <MikeSmith> hmm, sorta
  221. # [10:31] <MikeSmith> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-syntax/#newline
  222. # [10:31] <MikeSmith> "U+000A LINE FEED. Note that U+000D CARRIAGE RETURN and U+000C FORM FEED are not included in this definition, as they are converted to U+000A LINE FEED during preprocessing."
  223. # [10:32] <zcorpan> question is what should happen with \f when the string comes from CSSOM
  224. # [10:32] <zcorpan> i'll file a bug on MQ
  225. # [10:32] <MikeSmith> OK
  226. # [10:33] <zcorpan> MQ currently refers to CSS21 for its grammar
  227. # [10:33] <MikeSmith> oh
  228. # [10:33] <zcorpan> S [ \t\r\n\f]+
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  230. # [10:35] <zcorpan> so i guess that makes it unambiguous
  231. # [10:35] <MikeSmith> yeah I like that a lot better actually
  232. # [10:39] <zcorpan> but this is something to keep in mind when css specs move to being defined in terms of css-syntax
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  234. # [10:40] <SimonSapin> MikeSmith: I suppose it could link to http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/syndata.html#whitespace directly
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  236. # [10:41] <SimonSapin> zcorpan: css-syntax-3’s pre-processing also applies to strings that come from CSSOM
  237. # [10:47] <zcorpan> SimonSapin: cssom refers to MQ for parsing a MQ, which in turn doesn't mention css-syntax, so that's not clear
  238. # [10:47] <zcorpan> we also have the case of HTML's media="" attribute
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  240. # [10:48] <zcorpan> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/common-microsyntaxes.html#matches-the-environment also refers directly to MQ
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  242. # [10:53] <SimonSapin> zcorpan: I mean if you’re using the tokenizer as defined in Level 3, the pre-processing always applies
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  244. # [10:54] <zcorpan> yeah sure
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  248. # [11:18] <tantek> hober, FYI https://wiki.mozilla.org/Standards/license
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  251. # [11:26] <TabAtkins> Lots of things refer to 2.1 for grammar right now, because Syntax is just now hitting WD.
  252. # [11:27] <odinho> slartsa: It works in Opera 12. The presto-based line of Opera :)
  253. # [11:27] <TabAtkins> But you should interpret everything as if it was using Syntax, because that's what we're actually basing it all on.
  254. # [11:28] <MikeSmith> TabAtkins: ok, good to know
  255. # [11:32] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: so I have a minor issue in trying to automate testing of the validator, which is that if I test for U+000c being handled as whitespace, then we emit a warning saying, "This document is not mappable to XML 1.0 without data loss due to U+000c which is not a legal XML 1.0 character."
  256. # [11:33] <MikeSmith> and I can suppress that by telling my test runner to ignore warnings, but then it ignores all warnings
  257. # [11:33] <MikeSmith> and the warnings are something I want to test for too
  258. # [11:35] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: this is checkin-needed right? https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=910588
  259. # [11:37] <MikeSmith> I guess we need to add another class of test case, "has warning", along with "not valid" (has error) and "valid" (has no errors)
  260. # [11:38] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: yes , checkin needed
  261. # [11:39] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: ok
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  264. # [11:51] <annevk> "Some comments I made a long time ago:" points to message between April and June this year :-)
  265. # [11:56] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: I had realized that was going to affect View Source. I guess I should have noted it in the bug report. I wonder if there's anybody actually testing the View Source behavior.
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  275. # [12:43] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: OK to use your hg user line for the generated C++ patch?
  276. # [12:45] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: yep, fine by me
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  278. # [12:46] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: ok
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  284. # [13:16] <annevk> Hmm, should URL.username and URL.password actually be settable?
  285. # [13:16] <annevk> abarth: ^^
  286. # [13:21] <annevk> I guess it's fine
  287. # [13:27] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: maybe the validator could be configured to not whine about XML-mappability?
  288. # [13:33] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: I thought I already had the test runner configured that way, actually. So I'm not sure why I'm seeing them.
  289. # [13:34] <MikeSmith> anyway, I guess I will probably make the change to have the test runner recognize some files as being expected to cause warnings to be emitted intead of errors. Because it's useful to distinguish the diference.
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  309. # [14:33] <annevk> TabAtkins: you should really get some more sleep ;)
  310. # [14:33] <annevk> TabAtkins: oooh wait, you're in Paris
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  314. # [14:41] <annevk> TabAtkins: I'm running into that problem you always seem to run into, how do I use http://dev.w3.org/csswg/selectors/ to do what I need?
  315. # [14:41] <annevk> TabAtkins: :-)
  316. # [14:43] <SimonSapin> annevk: which problem is that?
  317. # [14:43] * Joins: scor (~scor@drupal.org/user/52142/view)
  318. # [14:43] <annevk> SimonSapin: I have a string, what parsing algorithm do I pass it to to get a selector object out? The algorithm needs to return failures for unresolved namespaces and other parsing errors.
  319. # [14:44] <annevk> SimonSapin: The next step is then using that selector object to match against a set of nodes. It's not clear what algorithm to use for that either, although the spec does seem to suggest to use "scope-filtered selectors" in that in some way because of the example I just read...
  320. # [14:44] * Joins: jreading (Adium@nat/novell/x-buirnszaxjiltmuk)
  321. # [14:45] <annevk> SimonSapin: that next step also needs to take the context object into account and discard it if it's not an Element, I guess
  322. # [14:45] <SimonSapin> there is no explicit algorithms
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  324. # [14:46] <annevk> SimonSapin: so I just need to monkey patch my way out of this mess?
  325. # [14:46] <SimonSapin> but the first step is parse per the grammar http://dev.w3.org/csswg/selectors/#grammar and check that the result is not invalid http://dev.w3.org/csswg/selectors/#invalid
  326. # [14:46] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: what OS do you deploy the Nu Validator on?
  327. # [14:46] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: do you deploy on Java 7?
  328. # [14:47] <annevk> SimonSapin: how does that deal with namespaces?
  329. # [14:47] <annevk> SimonSapin: and why is there no algorithm for parsing? that's kinda fundamental, no?
  330. # [14:48] <annevk> SimonSapin: we have lots of contexts that need selector parsing...
  331. # [14:49] <SimonSapin> there is a grammar
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  333. # [14:49] <annevk> orly?
  334. # [14:49] <SimonSapin> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/selectors/#grammar
  335. # [14:49] <annevk> yeah you already gave that link
  336. # [14:49] <SimonSapin> yeah
  337. # [14:50] <annevk> Again, that's not parsing, doesn't return anything, doesn't describe what it means what you get back when you follow it, etc.
  338. # [14:50] <annevk> Doesn't deal with resolving namespaces
  339. # [14:50] <SimonSapin> yes, the "invalid" concept includes undeclared namespace prefixes
  340. # [14:50] <annevk> You can't say "grammar" and expect magic
  341. # [14:51] <SimonSapin> not everything has to be written in imperative style
  342. # [14:51] <annevk> SimonSapin: yes, but it doesn't define if the namespace prefixes need to be declared ahead of parse time or not, etc.
  343. # [14:52] <annevk> SimonSapin: but you need clear hooks between specs, I don't really care how you define what gets implemented as an algorithm
  344. # [14:52] <annevk> SimonSapin: but if you don't define an algorithm, you need to be clear on how things work
  345. # [14:52] <annevk> SimonSapin: you can't just say, "there a grammar" and there's rules for "invalid" and you can derive the parsing algorithm from that
  346. # [14:53] <SimonSapin> yes, this spec should have better-defined hooks for other specs
  347. # [14:53] <SimonSapin> beyond that, I don’t see what’s the problem
  348. # [14:54] <annevk> Well, does parsing a selector fail if namespaces are not (yet) declared?
  349. # [14:55] <annevk> I.e. does parsing need a map of namespace declarations, or is that an after the fact thing on top of the output. That affects the implementation and affects designs around selectors.
  350. # [14:55] <SimonSapin> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/selectors/#namespaces says that you need a (possibly empty) set of namespace prefix declarations
  351. # [14:55] <annevk> Yes, but it doesn't say when.
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  353. # [14:56] <SimonSapin> that depends on what uses selectors. For stylesheets, http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-namespace/ defines that @namespace rules must be before style rules
  354. # [14:56] <SimonSapin> because having to go back and change the meaning of previous rules would suck
  355. # [14:57] <annevk> So you're saying the parse operation itself is independent of namespaces?
  356. # [14:57] <SimonSapin> Selectors APIs defines that the set is always empty, I believe
  357. # [14:57] <SimonSapin> in practice, you get namespace prefix declarations before parsing
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  359. # [14:58] <annevk> Well that depends on what API I design
  360. # [14:58] <annevk> The specification doesn't seem to constrain me either way
  361. # [14:58] <SimonSapin> I mean http://www.w3.org/TR/selectors-api/
  362. # [14:58] <annevk> I don't
  363. # [14:59] <SimonSapin> ok, so if you’re making a new thing that uses selectors, you need to define what ns declarations apply to any given selector
  364. # [14:59] <annevk> Again, I could do that after parse has completed it seems...
  365. # [14:59] <annevk> Because you don't define what parsing means, it's up to me
  366. # [15:00] <annevk> And I think that would be a problem for implementations, which is why I bring this up...
  367. # [15:00] <SimonSapin> well, if you want to separate the parsing into a concrete syntax tree per the grammar and then replace ns prefixes with URLs in a later step, you could do that
  368. # [15:00] <SimonSapin> I believe that’s an implementation detail
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  370. # [15:01] <annevk> :-(
  371. # [15:02] <SimonSapin> there is no model of "what you get" after parsing a selector because they’re basically black boxes. On the platform you can only observe their string serialization
  372. # [15:02] <annevk> That sounds like really bad systems design. I wonder if TabAtkins agrees with this...
  373. # [15:03] <SimonSapin> we’re in the middle in the F2F and he’s talking about gradient interpolation, but I’ll point him to this later
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  376. # [15:04] <annevk> If you define a syntax, whether the result object is a black box you can do things with or not, defining "parse X using namespace map Y" seems like a good thing to do.
  377. # [15:05] <annevk> And then you can ask the opaque object to query /tree/ using /scope/ or some such...
  378. # [15:05] <SimonSapin> ok, we could do that
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  382. # [15:06] <annevk> We might even want to expose a Selector as a thing in script at some point I suppose... Hmm
  383. # [15:07] <SimonSapin> maybe
  384. # [15:07] <SimonSapin> for now all you get is .selectorText
  385. # [15:08] <SimonSapin> In my experience when implementing Selectors, the data structure you want to represent them varies *a lot* based on the matching strategy
  386. # [15:08] <TabAtkins> annevk: I can add algo hooks for converting string to selector, and matching selector against a set of nodes in a tree.
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  388. # [15:08] <annevk> TabAtkins: sweet
  389. # [15:09] <annevk> SimonSapin: interesting
  390. # [15:09] <annevk> SimonSapin: I wasn't thinking of exposing the data structure anymore than an opaque Selector object, perhaps with serialization
  391. # [15:09] <annevk> SimonSapin: but if it depends on matching, that might not be good
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  393. # [15:10] <annevk> TabAtkins: I'll add something to the DOM standard for querySelector / querySelectorAll for now and then you can fill in the boxes I leave open and then we patch 'm up
  394. # [15:11] <TabAtkins> Yeah, all you need is a "selector" thinger, no internal structure. That's perfectly fine to expose.
  395. # [15:11] <hsivonen> If I set up a new VM for running Validator.nu, which Ubuntu version should I use? The latest are the LTS?
  396. # [15:11] <TabAtkins> But there is still an internal structure insofar as it's a complex selector list or whatever.
  397. # [15:11] <SimonSapin> well, exposing a Selector object that does do anything but its serialization is not very useful
  398. # [15:12] <hsivonen> The canonical supported version of OpenJDK in the LTS 6. in the latest, it's 7.
  399. # [15:12] <TabAtkins> SimonSapin: It's used by the "match a selector against some nodes" algo that Anne will be doing
  400. # [15:13] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: do you mean a spec concept, or a JS object?
  401. # [15:13] <TabAtkins> It's just convenient to have a spec concept for "selector" rather than having to cart around a string and constantly say "interpret as a selector...".
  402. # [15:13] <TabAtkins> Spec concept only.
  403. # [15:13] <TabAtkins> I suspect.
  404. # [15:13] <TabAtkins> annevk: ?
  405. # [15:14] <SimonSapin> then yes, +1 on spec concepts
  406. # [15:14] <annevk> TabAtkins: spec concept for sure, I was thinking maybe a JS object at some point
  407. # [15:14] <TabAtkins> Yeah, if you can find a use for it, I'm not against a JS object for it.
  408. # [15:14] <annevk> TabAtkins: we've had requests for that too, but if as SimonSapin says you want different data structures that might not be good to have
  409. # [15:14] <SimonSapin> requests for what exactly?
  410. # [15:15] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: w3c vnu backends I deploy on are all running java7
  411. # [15:15] <annevk> TabAtkins: but yeah, for most specs with a syntax having string -> object and object -> string is nice :)
  412. # [15:15] <annevk> SimonSapin: compile a string into a selector and then use it; similar to regular expressions
  413. # [15:15] <annevk> SimonSapin: selector.test(node) or some such
  414. # [15:16] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: ok. thanks
  415. # [15:16] <annevk> SimonSapin: we're adding the opposite now, which is okay I suppose, but somewhat ugly
  416. # [15:16] <annevk> (node.matches())
  417. # [15:16] <SimonSapin> annevk: if that JS object can be used in Selectors APIs, then yes it’s useful
  418. # [15:16] <annevk> Selectors API is going away
  419. # [15:17] <SimonSapin> uh, ok
  420. # [15:18] <annevk> SimonSapin: but what about your point about wanting to parse it into different structures depending on usage?
  421. # [15:18] <SimonSapin> or whatever its replacement is
  422. # [15:18] <jgraham> (I would totally prefer selector.matches(node) to node.matches(selector) fwiw)
  423. # [15:18] <annevk> jgraham: noted
  424. # [15:18] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: OS on all is Debian stable, 64 bit Intel
  425. # [15:19] <jgraham> Only for aesthetic reasons though
  426. # [15:19] <annevk> jgraham: depending on SimonSapin's answer to that question I might propose that on public-webapps
  427. # [15:19] <SimonSapin> annevk: if you want to expose the parts of a selector such as combinators, pseudo-classes, etc
  428. # [15:20] <SimonSapin> there are many ways to organize these in data structures
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  430. # [15:20] <annevk> SimonSapin: the point is that if you parse it into an object, you lose context of what it might be used for
  431. # [15:21] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: OK.
  432. # [15:21] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: does Debian already have OpenJDK 7 as a system package?
  433. # [15:21] <annevk> SimonSapin: in particular, you remark was "In my experience when implementing Selectors, the data structure you want to represent them varies *a lot* based on the matching strategy"
  434. # [15:21] <SimonSapin> yes
  435. # [15:21] <annevk> SimonSapin: if you have a single object without context, it seems that is still a problem
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  438. # [15:22] <SimonSapin> when adding an optimization to make matching faster, you may want to change the internal representation of selectors to make that easier
  439. # [15:22] <jgraham> But is "strategy" a constant for a given implementation?
  440. # [15:22] <annevk> SimonSapin: that's a different comment
  441. # [15:22] <jgraham> Or is it something that varies between e.g. CSS and qSA
  442. # [15:23] <SimonSapin> that’s a more specific example of what you quoted
  443. # [15:23] <annevk> *sigh*
  444. # [15:23] <jgraham> I think annevk is worried about the latter but not the former
  445. # [15:23] <jgraham> Or, maybe that's not a good example of the latter
  446. # [15:24] <annevk> Changing the data structure overall is indeed fine. That's why you have it as opaque object.
  447. # [15:24] <SimonSapin> ok, so we agree on that much
  448. # [15:24] <annevk> But if the data structure needs to be different between sel.matches(node) and sel.matchAgainst(tree), there's a problem
  449. # [15:24] <annevk> doh
  450. # [15:24] <SimonSapin> but then if that object is opaque, why is it useful?
  451. # [15:24] <annevk> SimonSapin: regular expression objects are opaque too...
  452. # [15:25] <SimonSapin> ok, you have a matching API on it
  453. # [15:25] <SimonSapin> I was missing that part
  454. # [15:25] <jgraham> So I think the idea is that it would be like re.compile in python
  455. # [15:25] * Joins: myakura (~myakura@FL1-125-197-193-40.tky.mesh.ad.jp)
  456. # [15:26] <jgraham> var s = new Selector(".foo > bar")
  457. # [15:26] <annevk> Why else would you have an object...
  458. # [15:26] <jgraham> s.matches(node)
  459. # [15:26] <jgraham> -> bool
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  462. # [15:29] <MikeSmith> I believe Debian does have Java 7 as a package, but not sure. I did not do the Java installs on those hosts. I think Yves did, so I'll ask him.
  463. # [15:29] <SimonSapin> so, yeah, a matching API with "pre-compiled" objects would be good
  464. # [15:29] <SimonSapin> though I don’t know how much it really affects performance in practice
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  467. # [15:35] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: no need. I'll go with the latest non-LTS Ubuntu
  468. # [15:35] <jgraham> SimonSapin: Well it's not just a performance thing
  469. # [15:36] <jgraham> I quite like the idea of inverting the API so that instead of everything hanging off node you have a selector that you can run against various objects
  470. # [15:36] <SimonSapin> jgraham: what’s the difference with using strings, other than perf?
  471. # [15:36] <jgraham> Others probably disagree though
  472. # [15:37] <jgraham> SimonSapin: YOu can't have the API this way around and strings
  473. # [15:37] <annevk> Domenic_: you're now my default-cc for a bunch of things, I'm gonna assume you'll let me know when it gets annoying
  474. # [15:38] <jgraham> ".foo > bar".matches(node) seems like all kind of wrong
  475. # [15:38] <hober> zcorpan: does cssom view define when an element establishes a scrolling box?
  476. # [15:38] <annevk> jgraham: making selectors first-class citizens makes a lot of sense to me
  477. # [15:38] <zcorpan> hober: no. known bug
  478. # [15:38] <hober> ok, thanks
  479. # [15:38] <annevk> jgraham: it's also less work for me :)
  480. # [15:39] <annevk> hober: zcorpan: CSS ought to define that...
  481. # [15:39] <annevk> hober: zcorpan: CSSOM is just there to expose the properties of the box and manipulate it, not to define when it exists
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  483. # [15:40] <hober> yeah, i don't really care where the definition is so long as there's one i can xref
  484. # [15:41] <annevk> hober: dude, you're on the CSS WG, it's your job to care, and I shouldn't have to :)
  485. # [15:42] <SimonSapin> jgraham: Selector("foo").match(node) vs. Selector.match("foo", node), meh.
  486. # [15:42] <hober> i mean, i do care from a "specs should be well organized" perspective, but i care less about that than that it gets written down somewhere. we can always move the definition to somewhere more appropriate
  487. # [15:42] <Lachy> I once had a proposal to be able to construct new slectors like that, though it was being considered for some other reason.
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  491. # [15:47] <hober> zcorpan: looks like you can reference "flow root" in css-box
  492. # [15:47] <zcorpan> hober: ? i don't edit css-box
  493. # [15:47] <zcorpan> oh do you mean for scrolling box?
  494. # [15:47] <hober> zcorpan: i mean the term "scrolling box" in cssom-view can reference that
  495. # [15:47] <zcorpan> ah
  496. # [15:48] <hober> although it looks like the definition could use a lot of love
  497. # [15:49] <zcorpan> it's not clear that it's the same as scrolling box
  498. # [15:49] <zcorpan> float:left causes flow root but not scrolling box
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  500. # [15:50] <zcorpan> you need overflow:auto or something
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  503. # [15:55] <annevk> Lachy: time to chat for a bit?
  504. # [15:56] <Lachy> in a few minutes
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  506. # [15:57] <annevk> Lachy: element.querySelector(): tree is element's node document, subject is element; document.querySelector(); tree is document, subject is document; documentfragment.querySelector(); tree is documentfragment, subject is documentfragment?
  507. # [15:58] <annevk> Lachy: and where I said subject, I meant scoping root
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  512. # [16:00] <zcorpan> hober: http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-box/#scrolling-mechanism looks closer
  513. # [16:03] <annevk> Actually, element's node document is wrong if element's ancestor is not document.
  514. # [16:03] <annevk> Ah yeah, you want element's root
  515. # [16:03] <annevk> And root also works for Document and DocumentFragment
  516. # [16:03] <annevk> brilliant
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  524. # [16:17] <hober> zcorpan: yeah, that doesn't handle overflow:hidden (which can be scrolled by script but has no scrolling mechanism)
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  526. # [16:18] <zcorpan> hober: good point
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  528. # [16:19] <Lachy> annevk, I'm back
  529. # [16:19] <zcorpan> hober: so has overflow and either overflow:hidden or has a scrolling mechanism
  530. # [16:22] <annevk> Lachy: TabAtkins: http://dom.spec.whatwg.org/#evaluate-a-selectors-string
  531. # [16:22] <annevk> ms^^
  532. # [16:22] <annevk> oh, meant that for Ms2ger, who is MIA
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  534. # [16:27] <annevk> Lachy: also question, the idea with find/select is that instead of the tree being the context object's root, it's the context object itself, and the selector is a relative selector, right?
  535. # [16:30] * Joins: marcosc (~marcosc@bl7-118-144.dsl.telepac.pt)
  536. # [16:30] <Lachy> tree is always the root element. It has to be since find can match elements anywhere in the document. Find basically just has an implied :scope that matches the context object.
  537. # [16:31] <annevk> oh okay, so tree is still the same, it's just that parsing is different?
  538. # [16:32] <Lachy> From memory, I think it works like this. element.find("+p") implies :scope+p
  539. # [16:33] <Lachy> yes, parsing is different. I will review what I'd written in here. I can take a look later tonight. I have to leave in about 2 minutes. https://github.com/lachlanhunt/dom/blob/master/dom-core.html
  540. # [16:34] <annevk> Lachy: it's fine I guess, I'll figure it out, seems like a few things are gonna change anyway per public-webapps discussion
  541. # [16:35] <Lachy> ok
  542. # [16:36] <Lachy> I should catch up with that stuff. Feel free to do whatever you think is best.
  543. # [16:36] <annevk> ta
  544. # [16:43] <Lachy> annevk, btw, the name select isn't usable. It clashes with an existing method. I'll check which one it is later.
  545. # [16:43] <Lachy> bye
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  551. # [17:01] <TabAtkins> annevk: Difference between find and querySelector is solely:
  552. # [17:01] * Quits: marcosc (~marcosc@bl7-118-144.dsl.telepac.pt) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  553. # [17:01] <TabAtkins> a) find allows relative selectors (starts with a combinator)
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  555. # [17:02] <annevk> right, that's parsing
  556. # [17:02] <annevk> I'd appreciate review of http://dom.spec.whatwg.org/#evaluate-a-selectors-string btw
  557. # [17:03] <TabAtkins> b) find doesn't do any scoping, while qSA does scope-filtering. (But the effect of relative selectors means that it kinda looks like scoping.)
  558. # [17:03] <annevk> Ah interesting. And c) has a much better return value...
  559. # [17:03] <TabAtkins> Yes.
  560. # [17:04] <TabAtkins> And yeah, i'll review in a bit. I'm still minuting...
  561. # [17:04] <annevk> poor TabAtkins
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  563. # [17:04] <Domenic_> ugh these stream proposals are getting out of hand
  564. # [17:06] <annevk> Domenic_: a decade ago someone would have just shipped something and we'd be stuck with that
  565. # [17:06] <annevk> Domenic_: count your blessings
  566. # [17:07] <jgraham> Now we will spend a year iterating the design, someone will just ship something, it will turn out to be crappy, and we will be stuck with that
  567. # [17:07] <Domenic_> annevk: was more a comment on quality than quantity, but yeah, i know what you mean
  568. # [17:08] <Domenic_> going to have to just take isaacs's proposed minimal API, slap one or two promise-returning sugar methods on top of it, and see how that goes over
  569. # [17:08] <Domenic_> will write up after i finish these damn jsconf eu slides
  570. # [17:08] <annevk> Man, everyone is going to Berlin?
  571. # [17:08] <annevk> Maybe next year...
  572. # [17:09] <annevk> darobin: for some reason your matchesSelector email doesn't show up in my inbox, I guess there's delayed delivery for you too :/
  573. # [17:09] <annevk> darobin: but seems like there'd be transition cost either way
  574. # [17:10] <darobin> annevk: yeah, it seems there's some weirdness
  575. # [17:10] <darobin> oh I'm not against the idea, I think I like it — I was just pointing out that there are implementations
  576. # [17:11] <Domenic_> while it seems cool conceptually, i am not sure I would ever use a Selectors object...
  577. # [17:11] <darobin> Domenic_: hence my "I think I like it"
  578. # [17:11] <darobin> I'm still thinking about which contexts I'd actually use it in
  579. # [17:15] <annevk> If you wouldn't use that, would you use matches()?
  580. # [17:15] <annevk> They're identical, except one has less parsing over time...
  581. # [17:16] <annevk> And puts less cruft on Element
  582. # [17:16] <Domenic_> yeah I use the jQuery equivalent (.is) all the time
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  584. # [17:18] <Domenic_> I meant, in a world where both were available, I can never see myself doing `(new Selectors("x")).matches(el)` over `el.matches("x")`, so I need to think of cases where caching the selector is important, and I can't think of any right now.
  585. # [17:18] <annevk> Yeah understood. Hmm...
  586. # [17:19] <annevk> .matches() takes relative selectors too?
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  593. # [17:30] <annevk> So <input> has select(), but it doesn't take an argument...
  594. # [17:31] <Domenic_> oh boy :P
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  596. # [17:31] <Domenic_> i humbly put forth query/queryAll, which are not as good, but no such issues i would hope
  597. # [17:31] <annevk> That might work
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  604. # [17:40] <Domenic_> Hmm did the ascii-art get dropped from grid layout?
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  614. # [17:54] <TabAtkins> Domenic_: No, of course not. Why would you think so?
  615. # [17:54] <Domenic_> TabAtkins: was reading some links tweeted by @CSSWG and saw a different syntax being used. Probably additive then, not instead of.
  616. # [17:55] <TabAtkins> Yeah, grid-template-areas is the ascii-art property.
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  619. # [18:00] * darobin wishes it were just called "ascii-art"
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  663. # [19:08] <gsnedders> jgraham: Can you rebase r/287?
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  665. # [19:09] <gsnedders> jgraham: Should be in-place to ca4041f2e005748559189af27c92c1db73e76159
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  669. # [19:12] <gsnedders> jgraham: Okay, managed to do the rebase, now can't enable tracking
  670. # [19:12] <gsnedders> jgraham: And now it's working again suddenly. Weird.
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  689. # [19:40] <mounir> Domenic_: in 'promises-unwrapping', the .race() method in inspired by what? A+? previous DOM spec?
  690. # [19:42] <mounir> Domenic_: ... I wonder why it is designed to reject if one of the promises is rejected
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  722. # [20:42] <Hixie_> http://larry.masinter.net/1307multipart-form-data.pdf https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=16909#c8
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  796. # [23:32] <Hixie_> do we really still not have a cross-browser mousewheel story?
  797. # [23:32] <zcorpan> Hixie_: my chrome passes http://www.hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/dom/level0/window/security/001.html
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  799. # [23:33] <Hixie_> zcorpan: yes? are we expecting otherwise?
  800. # [23:34] <zcorpan> Hixie_: you claimed otherwise in https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23218#c1
  801. # [23:35] <zcorpan> oh the pass condition is backwards
  802. # [23:35] <Hixie_> that test is checking something else
  803. # [23:35] <Hixie_> my bad
  804. # [23:35] <Hixie_> i changed it after filign the bug
  805. # [23:35] <Hixie_> forgot i'd mentioned it in the bug
  806. # [23:36] <zcorpan> ok
  807. # [23:37] <jgraham> gsnedders: Yeah, I think the caching gets screwed up or something
  808. # [23:39] <zewt> Hixie_: it's not even interoperable across browser versions, heh
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  813. # [23:43] <zewt> (iirc event.detail is the amount of the scroll, and since mousewheels snap to lines it's some constant N times the number of lines--but that constant isn't very constant)
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  815. # [23:43] <Hixie_> wheelDelta, not detail, but yeah
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  818. # [23:46] <zewt> it's event.detail somewhere, or at least I have code that tries both
  819. # [23:49] <zewt> oh yeah it's .detail on DOMMouseScroll (firefox), .wheelDelta on mousewheel (webkit)
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  821. # [23:49] <zewt> and for added fun, not only are their scales completely different--their signs are opposite
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  823. # [23:51] <jgraham> Just call it "natural scrolling" and sell it as a feature
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  827. # [23:54] <zewt> zing
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  834. # Session Close: Thu Sep 12 00:00:00 2013

The end :)