/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2013-09-14 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sat Sep 14 00:00:00 2013
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  33. # [01:20] <Hixie_> is there a way to make an element with a semi-transparent background blur the stuff it overlaps?
  34. # [01:20] <Hixie_> aero-style? or mac menu style?
  35. # [01:22] <zewt> you can do that with css filters, i think
  36. # [01:23] <zewt> iirc it's catastrophically slow in some implementations (not all are hardware-accelerated)
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  40. # [01:28] <Hixie_> doesn't 'filter' apply to the element itself, rather than its background?
  41. # [01:29] <Hixie_> or i should say, rather than what is behind it
  42. # [01:29] <Hixie_> not its background in a CSS sense
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  46. # [01:32] <Hixie_> cabanier: ping
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  48. # [01:38] <zewt> hmm true
  49. # [01:39] <rillian> Hixie_: you'd have to hack it I think. css filters blur before compositing
  50. # [01:39] <zewt> wonder how that could be done in general ... first thought is a way to create an element whose contents is whatever's composited underneath it, but alpha would break that
  51. # [01:39] <rillian> http://jsfiddle.net/3asZC/539/
  52. # [01:40] <Hixie_> doesn't seem to affect the backdrop...
  53. # [01:41] <zewt> unless it's just a flat, completely precomposited copy of whatever's under it (thus with no transparency)
  54. # [01:42] <zewt> personally there are few things in UIs i hate more than blurring (hurts my eyes), so I'm okay with it being hard to do :)
  55. # [01:44] <Hixie_> mac menus use it to good effect
  56. # [01:45] <zewt> i don't remember it (and don't see it on my mbp), maybe I turned it off somewhere
  57. # [01:45] <Hixie_> look through a context menu
  58. # [01:46] <Hixie_> or a top-level menu from the menu bar
  59. # [01:46] <Hixie_> it's extremely subtle
  60. # [01:46] <Hixie_> bbl
  61. # [01:47] <zewt> nope
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  66. # [02:04] <Domenic_> +1, we have wanted this background-blurring ourselves
  67. # [02:04] <Domenic_> I might try breaking out the old ::before, putting the background in there, and blurring the ::before?
  68. # [02:04] <Domenic_> Bet it doesn't work though, everyone forgets poor pseudo-elements when implementing cool features like filters.
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  91. # [03:26] <zewt> Domenic_: not really fair to expect that, heh (and if there was a way to do it, ::before doesn't seem right anyway)
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  95. # [03:30] <cabanier> Hixie_: pong
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  98. # [03:33] <cabanier> Domenic_: why would a filter not work on a pseudo?
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  111. # [04:14] <MikeSmith> I'm running IE10 in virtualbox on my Mac. Anybody know if there's a way I can copy the generated DOM from IE to the clipboard?
  112. # [04:15] <MikeSmith> like "Copy InnerHTML" in Firefox devtools or "Copy HTML" in Chrome devtools
  113. # [04:15] <MikeSmith> I can't even figure out how to to do "View source"..
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  116. # [04:27] <cabanier> MikeSmith: hit F12, select the node and say copy innterHTML
  117. # [04:27] <cabanier> MikeSmith: "view source" is right-click
  118. # [04:31] <MikeSmith> cabanier: thanks but for some reason I can't even get a context menu with right-click -- nothing happens. And for F12 also, nothing happens
  119. # [04:31] <MikeSmith> but I did manage to to get the Developer Tools UI to display
  120. # [04:32] <MikeSmith> and there's Save HTML button there
  121. # [04:33] <MikeSmith> now I don't don't how to move the file between the VirtualBox environment and my Mac filesystem but I guess it's just easier to send it to myself by Gmail
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  123. # [04:34] <MikeSmith> cabanier: btw what I'm working is canvas-related
  124. # [04:34] <MikeSmith> preparing a report on browser results for the 2dcontext test sute
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  126. # [04:35] <cabanier> MikeSmith: ah.
  127. # [04:36] <cabanier> MikeSmith: is it so we know to go to the next stage and cut the at-risk features?
  128. # [04:36] <MikeSmith> yeah
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  130. # [04:38] <MikeSmith> cabanier: results so far at at http://w3c-test.org/testrunner/2dcontext/results.html
  131. # [04:39] <cabanier> I thought someone already did that a couple of months ago.
  132. # [04:39] <MikeSmith> probably they did
  133. # [04:39] <MikeSmith> but if so I don't recall where or if they produced an actual report of some kind
  134. # [04:40] <MikeSmith> the above results are generated using a test-runner that Ms2ger put together
  135. # [04:40] <cabanier> I remember seeing it. They used the same test suite from philip
  136. # [04:40] <MikeSmith> (general test-runner, not specific to canvas)a
  137. # [04:40] <MikeSmith> OK
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  139. # [04:41] <MikeSmith> you don't remember who it was?
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  142. # [04:51] <cabanier> Let me check my email
  143. # [04:56] <MikeSmith> cabanier: thanks -- I appreciate it
  144. # [04:56] <cabanier> MikeSmith: Jay created a report: https://github.com/w3c/html/commit/e39702df26606c248e4446f4371ca5ce739
  145. # [04:56] <cabanier> MikeSmith: I don't know how extensive it is
  146. # [04:57] * MikeSmith looks
  147. # [04:58] <cabanier> http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/html5/2dcontext/canvas2d-implemtation.html?rev=1.3;content-type=text%2Fhtml
  148. # [04:58] <MikeSmith> cabanier: not so bad for what it is I guess
  149. # [04:58] <MikeSmith> https://rawgithub.com/w3c/html/e39702df26606c248e4446f4371ca5ce73912e61/CR_canvas_Status-6-20-2013.html
  150. # [04:58] <MikeSmith> cabanier: thanks
  151. # [04:58] <MikeSmith> yeah but not so extensive
  152. # [04:58] <cabanier> no. I think he mentioned that
  153. # [04:59] <MikeSmith> we need to granularity
  154. # [04:59] <cabanier> more granularity?
  155. # [04:59] <MikeSmith> I mean, we all already know that that we don't have implementations of Path object and hit testing
  156. # [04:59] <MikeSmith> granularity as in, exactly which tests fail
  157. # [05:00] <MikeSmith> and do they fail in more than one browser
  158. # [05:00] <cabanier> yes
  159. # [05:00] <cabanier> sometimes the spec is wrong but all the browser agree anyway
  160. # [05:00] <cabanier> ie stroking
  161. # [05:00] <MikeSmith> or to put it in other terms, for any given test, do we have a least 2 engines that pass it
  162. # [05:00] <MikeSmith> yeah
  163. # [05:01] <MikeSmith> cabanier: or if you look at the first failure in http://w3c-test.org/testrunner/2dcontext/results.html
  164. # [05:01] <MikeSmith> fill-and-stroke-styles/2d.pattern.image.incomplete.immediate.html
  165. # [05:02] <MikeSmith> fails in all UAs
  166. # [05:03] <MikeSmith> http://w3c-test.org/testrunner/2dcontext/fill-and-stroke-styles/2d.pattern.image.incomplete.immediate.html
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  168. # [05:04] <cabanier> 2d.pattern.image.incomplete.immediate.html is part of the blink/webkit testsuite and passes there
  169. # [05:04] <MikeSmith> really?
  170. # [05:05] <MikeSmith> not passing for me when I run it in Chromium 31
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  172. # [05:05] <cabanier> This is the script:
  173. # [05:05] <cabanier> _addTest(function(canvas, ctx) {
  174. # [05:05] <cabanier> var img = new Image();
  175. # [05:05] <cabanier> img.src = "NotARealFileName.png";
  176. # [05:05] <cabanier> _assertSame(img.complete, false, "img.complete", "false");
  177. # [05:05] <cabanier> _assertSame(ctx.createPattern(img, 'repeat'), null, "ctx.createPattern(img, 'repeat')", "null");
  178. # [05:05] <cabanier> });
  179. # [05:05] <MikeSmith> http://w3c-test.org/testrunner/2dcontext/results-chrome31.html
  180. # [05:06] <MikeSmith> I get "Failed assertion ctx.createPattern(img, 'repeat') === null (got [object CanvasPattern][object], expected [object])"
  181. # [05:06] <MikeSmith> assert_equals: ctx.createPattern(img, 'repeat') === null (got [object CanvasPattern][object], expected [object]) expected null but got object "[object CanvasPattern]"
  182. # [05:07] <cabanier> the code looks the same
  183. # [05:07] <MikeSmith> I get tht same failure in Firefox 26
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  185. # [05:07] <cabanier> ah, in your case it's finding the image
  186. # [05:11] <cabanier> this is testing image fetching from the main HTML spec: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#update-the-image-data
  187. # [05:12] <cabanier> and I'm not sure if it's asserting on something correct
  188. # [05:12] <MikeSmith> so maybe there's something wrong with the test
  189. # [05:13] <MikeSmith> by my count we have about 40 tests from thw 2dcontext test suite that aren't passing in any UA
  190. # [05:14] <cabanier> I'm not 100% sure that the test is wrong, but it's not failing on something that's part of canvas
  191. # [05:14] <MikeSmith> ok
  192. # [05:15] <MikeSmith> so that's the kind of thing we need to isolate, and change the test or drop it or whatever if it's not valid
  193. # [05:16] <cabanier> yes
  194. # [05:17] <MikeSmith> to me the main real utility of the http://w3c-test.org/testrunner/2dcontext/results.html report is, we go through all the fails-in-two-or-more-browsers cases and figure out why they're failing, then either make changes to the tests as needed, or if it's a real conformance failure with the current spec, then we either change the spec or list it as a known issue or whatever
  195. # [05:18] <cabanier> 2d.pattern.repeat.null.html is actually something where the whatwg is diverging from the w3c one
  196. # [05:19] <cabanier> MikeSmith: yes, let's go through them and see if we find spec bugs
  197. # [05:21] <MikeSmith> cabanier: if/when you have time on your own, and you see some low-hanging fruit, please make some notes and send them to the public-html-testsuite list or even to public-html
  198. # [05:21] <MikeSmith> in the meantime, plh is going to be talking about the results with Kris Kruger
  199. # [05:22] <cabanier> ok
  200. # [05:22] <MikeSmith> myself after this weekend I'm going to be away for two weeks at some Web events in Inida
  201. # [05:24] <cabanier> I assume that you will add all results to http://w3c-test.org/testrunner/2dcontext/results.html ?
  202. # [05:26] <MikeSmith> cabanier: which other results are needed?
  203. # [05:26] <MikeSmith> plh and I are only testing the latest versions of each UA
  204. # [05:26] <cabanier> MikeSmith: ah. I thought you were still adding test results
  205. # [05:26] <cabanier> ok
  206. # [05:27] <MikeSmith> no, those are complete results for all the http://w3c-test.org/web-platform-tests/master/2dcontext/ tests at least
  207. # [05:28] <MikeSmith> I know we have other canvas tests in http://w3c-test.org/web-platform-tests/master/html/semantics/embedded-content-0/the-canvas-element/ but I'm not doing any reporting on those yet at this point
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  209. # [05:41] <Hixie_> cabanier: is 2d.pattern.repeat.null.html assuming the whatwg spec or the w3c one? and what do browsers do?
  210. # [05:42] <cabanier> the one mike ran assumes w3c
  211. # [05:42] <Hixie_> cabanier: the reason i pinged you earlier was wondering if you were aware of any css plans to do blurring during composition, of the content you're being composited on
  212. # [05:42] <cabanier> s/w3c/whatwg
  213. # [05:43] <cabanier> the one from webkit/blink assumes w3c
  214. # [05:43] <cabanier> blurring of the element? that's already in
  215. # [05:43] <Hixie_> not of the element
  216. # [05:43] <Hixie_> of the stuff behind the element
  217. # [05:43] <cabanier> ah
  218. # [05:43] <cabanier> like blurring your backdrop?
  219. # [05:44] <cabanier> we've talked about that but it's not in a spec yet
  220. # [05:44] <Hixie_> k
  221. # [05:44] <Hixie_> had a need for it in a personal project recently, so, consider this a +1 :-)
  222. # [05:45] <Hixie_> looks like the whatwg spec is just wrong about the createPattern() call.
  223. # [05:45] <cabanier> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-fx/2012AprJun/0003.html
  224. # [05:45] <Hixie_> w3c spec seems wrong too though
  225. # [05:45] <cabanier> we've had a bug on createPattern
  226. # [05:46] <cabanier> "If the empty string or null is specified, repeat must be assumed"
  227. # [05:46] <Hixie_> that's not the bug
  228. # [05:46] <Hixie_> the bug is the idl is wrong
  229. # [05:46] <Hixie_> it says first argument isn't nullable
  230. # [05:46] <Hixie_> (both specs say that)
  231. # [05:48] <cabanier> yes. the idl is wrong
  232. # [05:50] <Hixie_> man, the w3c one is way out of date
  233. # [05:50] <Hixie_> either that or i'm looking at the wrong spec
  234. # [05:52] <Hixie_> wait
  235. # [05:52] <Hixie_> i'm getting different results here
  236. # [05:52] <Hixie_> oh, i misread the test
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  238. # [05:52] <cabanier> I might have been looking at a different test. several failed
  239. # [05:53] <cabanier> which one are you looking at?
  240. # [05:53] <Hixie_> http://w3c-test.org/testrunner/2dcontext/fill-and-stroke-styles/2d.pattern.repeat.null.html, but i was misreading it
  241. # [05:53] <Hixie_> testing again now.
  242. # [05:55] <cabanier> ok. the test you run assumes that 'null' will throw, but the same test in blink assumes that it will work
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  244. # [06:01] <Hixie_> i wonder (a) why the browsers do this, given that it's so inconsistent with everything else, and (b) why the specs forked on this
  245. # [06:01] <cabanier> it was an accidental change by Cameron when he updated everything to webidl
  246. # [06:02] <Hixie_> what was?
  247. # [06:02] <cabanier> no longer allowing null
  248. # [06:02] <cabanier> for createPattern
  249. # [06:02] <Hixie_> ah
  250. # [06:02] <Hixie_> that doesn't explain the forking though
  251. # [06:04] <cabanier> I'm trying to find the bug
  252. # [06:04] <Hixie_> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=17891
  253. # [06:04] <Hixie_> that's where we decided to make the whatwg version make more sense
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  255. # [06:04] <Hixie_> but the w3c one forking apparently sowed confusion and led to implementations staying with the old behaviour
  256. # [06:04] <Hixie_> ffs
  257. # [06:04] <Hixie_> this forking crap keeps causing stuff like this
  258. # [06:04] <Hixie_> i wish the htmlwg would stop doing this
  259. # [06:05] <cabanier> the browsers all agreed that null was ok
  260. # [06:05] <Hixie_> because of the fork
  261. # [06:05] <Hixie_> they wouldn't have otherwise
  262. # [06:05] <Hixie_> see e.g. https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=784809
  263. # [06:05] <cabanier> no, the old canvas spec said it was ok
  264. # [06:05] <Hixie_> yeah, and we tried to fix it
  265. # [06:06] <Hixie_> but the w3c spec didn't
  266. # [06:06] <cabanier> why?
  267. # [06:06] <cabanier> what needed fixing?
  268. # [06:06] <Hixie_> why the w3c didn't? beats the heck out of me
  269. # [06:06] <Hixie_> what needs fixing is "null" being treated as empty string is not normal behaviour
  270. # [06:06] <cabanier> this is when the test was changed to disallow null: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=17141
  271. # [06:09] <cabanier> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=784809 was to undo the change that ms2ger made shortly after he changed the test
  272. # [06:12] <cabanier> so, as far as I can tell:
  273. # [06:12] <cabanier> 1. everyone allowed null (and the tests verified this)
  274. # [06:13] <cabanier> 2. you integrated cameron's change
  275. # [06:13] <cabanier> 3. ms2ger changed mozilla and the test
  276. # [06:14] <cabanier> 4. Boris did not agree with the change, someone filed a bug against the w3c spec and the whatwg
  277. # [06:15] <cabanier> 5. the w3c version was changed back and mozilla reverted its change
  278. # [06:16] <cabanier> I don't remember why I changed the IDL back...
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  280. # [06:17] <cabanier> I had a domstring? there at one point
  281. # [06:17] <Hixie_> re 1, pretty sure opera didn't.
  282. # [06:17] <Hixie_> re 4, the mozilla bug makes it clear that it was because the specs forked that bz felt he should pick something
  283. # [06:17] <cabanier> yes, they were the odd one out
  284. # [06:18] <Hixie_> the net result is, the web gets one more crazy quirk. yay us.
  285. # [06:19] <cabanier> I don't think so. I remember that bz wanted the old behavior. see also https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=17891#c8
  286. # [06:21] <cabanier> fwiw, I think the canvas api's should be more lax.
  287. # [06:21] <Hixie_> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=784809 was filed by bz specifically with the reason "the spec changed" which he later clarified to mean your fork
  288. # [06:22] <Hixie_> so step 4 happened after the w3c spec changed, and because of it
  289. # [06:22] <Hixie_> anyway, the specifics are water under the bridge. i just find it irritating that we once again have inconsistency in the platform, especially since this time it's specifically because the w3c is forking specs that we have it.
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  291. # [06:23] <cabanier> I'm not sure if you can blame forking here. I agree forking is bad!
  292. # [06:24] <cabanier> boris would have objected to this even if there was no w3c spec
  293. # [06:25] <cabanier> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=784809#c2: "The user impact is that createPattern calls that used to work and should work per the updated spec throw on m-c and aurora right now."
  294. # [06:25] <cabanier> some websites broke with this change
  295. # [06:25] <Hixie_> which?
  296. # [06:27] <cabanier> I don't remember but there was a popular library that stopped working
  297. # [06:27] <Hixie_> i don't see that documented anywhere
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  299. # [06:28] <cabanier> yes, I can only find that aurora is throwing
  300. # [06:29] <cabanier> I think that was really the divergence :-P
  301. # [06:29] <cabanier> the only divergence
  302. # [06:30] <Hixie_> there's like half a dozen different versions of the canvas spec on the w3c site, but the ones i found were all very divergent when it comes to createPattern. For example, they don't have ImageBitmap.
  303. # [06:30] <Hixie_> or CanvasImageSource or whatever it's called.
  304. # [06:31] <Hixie_> (i really don't understand why the w3c insists on forking when they keep talking, as you just did, about how forking is bad)
  305. # [06:31] <Hixie_> anyway, i gotta go. bbl.
  306. # [06:32] <cabanier> ok!
  307. # [06:35] <cabanier> canvasimagesource should be there
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  309. # [06:35] <cabanier> and imageBitmap is imageData. weird
  310. # [06:35] <cabanier> some integration must have gone bad
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  313. # [07:05] <MikeSmith> cabanier: do you know offhand which test cases correspond to the changes Hixie just made to the canvas spec?
  314. # [07:05] <MikeSmith> if not, no worries, I'll go in and try to match them up so I can annotate the report
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  318. # [07:46] <cabanier> MikeSmith: I think it's the one with 'pattern.repeat.null'
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  320. # [07:47] <cabanier> It does seem like the latest canvas spec is out of sync with the whatwg one. I will find out why that happend
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  324. # [07:57] <MikeSmith> cabanier: ok
  325. # [08:00] <MikeSmith> btw I don't think there's any tests in the canvas test suite that have ever intentionally been changed to assume the W3C spec and to not conform to the upstream spec
  326. # [08:01] <MikeSmith> if there are cases where they match the w3c spec but not the whatwg spec, I would thikn that's due to the whatwg spec having made a change and that change not getting ported to the w3c spec
  327. # [08:02] <MikeSmith> that is, the test is matching outdated behavior and needs to be updated
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  340. # [09:05] <cabanier> MikeSmith: we should test what the browsers implemented. If all (or most) of them converge on a certain behavior, then that is what should be in the spec and what we should test
  341. # [09:05] <cabanier> MikeSmith: the createPattern issue is a good example of that
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  343. # [09:06] <MikeSmith> yeah
  344. # [09:06] <MikeSmith> well, in that specific case, the test did originally match what was implemented
  345. # [09:07] <cabanier> yes. so most of them converged (except opera) and then it became impossible to change it to something more sane
  346. # [09:07] <MikeSmith> but then Mozilla changed to implement what the spec says, and at that time Ms2ger also changed the test, to match the spec and to match what Mozilla (and Opera) had implemented
  347. # [09:07] <MikeSmith> yeah
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  444. # [14:57] <Domenic_> annevk: `class Elements extends Array` got spontaneous applause about an hour ago at JSConf EU :D
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  487. # [16:57] <xvzf> hi there, I started to read Mark Pilgrim's book and he had written that WhatWG wanted to describe how popular browsers had provided fallback modes for erroneous html. Which documents should I read if I'm interested in this?
  488. # [17:01] <Philip`> xvzf: Probably http://whatwg.org/html
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  492. # [17:11] <xvzf> Philip`, : especially http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/#auto-toc-14 I guess
  493. # [17:15] <Philip`> xvzf: The "Writing HTML documents" vs "Parsing HTML documents" sections might be the most obvious example - the first section defines what is correct/erroneous syntax, and the second section defines how to parse HTML regardless of its correctness (with the handling of erroneous content being compatible with what browsers have done historically, because there is content that relies on that)
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  577. # [22:40] <annevk> bkardell__: I don't follow your question on Twitter
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  620. # [23:58] <Hixie_> is there a way to make opacity:0 elements transparent for event targetting purposes also?
  621. # [23:59] <Hixie_> i'm using opacity to fade them out in a transition instead of marking them display:none, but they're still there so clicks still go to them...
  622. # Session Close: Sun Sep 15 00:00:00 2013

The end :)