/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2013-09-25 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Sep 25 00:00:01 2013
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  5. # [00:01] <Hixie_> tantek: microformats just honours dir="" transparently, right? there's no special magic?
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  9. # [00:06] <tantek> Hixie - that's right
  10. # [00:06] <tantek> did someone raise an issue about dir?
  11. # [00:07] <Hixie_> only tangentially. not an issue on microformats.
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  31. # [00:43] <annevk> I could also change *|*:fullscreen::backdrop to ::backdrop...
  32. # [00:44] <annevk> I don't think you'd be able to observe the difference
  33. # [00:44] <Hixie_> too late :-)
  34. # [00:44] <Hixie_> well, not too late i guess
  35. # [00:44] <Hixie_> but i've taken care of it
  36. # [00:44] <Hixie_> for <dialog>
  37. # [00:44] <Hixie_> i originally thought it was just defined to cover the background
  38. # [00:45] <Hixie_> that's why i hadn't positioned it
  39. # [00:45] <Hixie_> but it's fine
  40. # [00:46] <annevk> fair enough, no need to touch both specs at this point indeed
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  392. # [04:10] <bholley> Hixie_: maybe we should IRC for a bit?
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  394. # [04:10] <bholley> Hixie_: (though I understand if now isn't a good time)
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  406. # [05:15] <Hixie_> hopefully i'll catch him tomorrow
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  411. # [05:34] <TabAtkins> annevk: Why have *|* at all in there? It doesn't add anything.
  412. # [05:34] <TabAtkins> zewt: Yeah, the lack of good templating is the sole reason I still use PHP for most of my personal projects, which are usually just dead-simple CRUD applications.
  413. # [05:35] <annevk> TabAtkins: yes it does
  414. # [05:35] <zewt> i wrote a thing that pulled off inverted-templates with python once; it worked, but it was pretty unintuivie
  415. # [05:35] <zewt> ... unintuitive
  416. # [05:35] <zewt> (much like the qwerty keyboard layout)
  417. # [05:35] <TabAtkins> annevk: What does it do?
  418. # [05:35] <annevk> TabAtkins: it selects elements outside the default namespace
  419. # [05:36] <TabAtkins> Hm, I thought that an unspecified namespace would do that too.
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  421. # [05:36] <TabAtkins> Does that mean that "rect" in an HTML document won't find my SVG <rect> elements?
  422. # [05:36] <annevk> TabAtkins: the CSS declares a default namespace and therefore I use *|* to get out of that
  423. # [05:37] <annevk> TabAtkins: CSS namespaces are not related to the document
  424. # [05:37] <TabAtkins> Oh, the UA sheet does. I see.
  425. # [05:37] <TabAtkins> Yeah, nm then.
  426. # [05:37] <TabAtkins> Anyway, that means you still need it in the just-a-::backdrop case, too.
  427. # [05:39] <annevk> I'm not sure what you mean
  428. # [05:40] <TabAtkins> You said: "I could also change *|*:fullscreen::backdrop to ::backdrop..."
  429. # [05:40] <TabAtkins> You'd have to change it to *|*::backdrop to maintain that "every namespace" feature.
  430. # [05:40] <annevk> Ah right
  431. # [05:41] <TabAtkins> anyway, home now. nn
  432. # [05:41] <annevk> Since it's only :fullscreen and :dialog that need, it won't be changed for now... Maybe once CSS defines its box model and stacking context better and moves this there...
  433. # [05:41] <annevk> TabAtkins: have a good one
  434. # [05:41] * heycam is now known as heycam|away
  435. # [05:44] <Hixie_> do we have a blog.whatwg.org admin (that is, someone who can update the actual software, not just someone who has admin rights on the blog itself) around?
  436. # [05:45] <Hixie_> do we even know who that is?
  437. # [05:45] <annevk> Hixie_: I think that's Lachy, not sure
  438. # [05:45] <Hixie_> yeah, you might be right
  439. # [05:45] <Hixie_> anyone know what's up with him?
  440. # [05:46] <annevk> Hixie_: and maybe Ben Millard? I remember him doing some work on the markup
  441. # [05:46] <annevk> Hixie_: I think he's doing less standards these days and more coding, somewhere in Oslo
  442. # [05:47] <Hixie_> well if anyone wants to volunteer to take over blog admin work from lachy, let me know
  443. # [05:48] <Hixie_> probably need someone to do the wiki too, since aryeh has been gone for a while
  444. # [05:48] <Hixie_> it's not much ongoing work, just the occasional software upgrade so we don't get owned
  445. # [05:49] <Hixie_> oh wait, GPHemsley took over the wiki, didn't he
  446. # [05:49] <Hixie_> zcorpan: are you doing the forums?
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  474. # [07:27] <TabAtkins> Oh man, caught the "but preventing people from *choosing* to use DRM is anti-Open Web" in one.
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  516. # [09:12] <zcorpan> Hixie_: Xdega updated the forums last time. it's not up to date now it seems. i'll ask if he can update it again
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  541. # [10:20] <ondras> Domenic_: hi, you around?
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  567. # [11:45] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: yt? csswg hg is timing out
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  578. # [12:09] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: working on it
  579. # [12:09] <MikeSmith> but it seems the systems team may have cut me off from root on that hosta
  580. # [12:10] <MikeSmith> the fix for the hg problem is just for the apache server on that host to be restarted
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  582. # [12:11] <MikeSmith> actually the fix for it is really for the CSS WG to pull its head out of its ass and move everything to github instead
  583. # [12:12] <Ms2ger> Ehehehehe
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  613. # [13:46] <GPHemsley> Hixie_: Yes. Yes, I did. :P
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  616. # [13:49] * GPHemsley seconds hallvors1's praise for PHP's docs
  617. # [13:49] * GPHemsley wishes Python's docs were as good
  618. # [13:50] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: csswg hg should be working again
  619. # [13:52] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: thanks!
  620. # [13:52] <MikeSmith> thanks for the heads-up
  621. # [13:55] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: new problem: hg push gives abort: HTTP Error 500: Internal Server Error
  622. # [13:55] <zcorpan> should i just try again?
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  624. # [13:56] <zcorpan> hmm, but my changes seem to have gone through. https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/csswg
  625. # [13:57] <zcorpan> so i guess it's fine
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  630. # [14:02] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: I just now re-restarted apache there. Not sure if it had actually be restarted when the previous problem was fixed. But it should be 100% back to normal now.
  631. # [14:03] <zcorpan> ok
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  639. # [14:14] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: btw about the 00N.isvalid.html and 00N.novalid.html naming conventions, I've figured it was worth trying out as a way to use the filename to easily store the metadata about the core way the test document are distinguished from each other
  640. # [14:14] <MikeSmith> and to tell a test runner what to expect when checking the document
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  642. # [14:15] <MikeSmith> I've also added some documents with 00N.haswarn.html names to indicate they should only generate warnings
  643. # [14:16] <MikeSmith> which is another case that's useful to distinguish separately for errors -- at least as far as testing validator.nu goes
  644. # [14:16] <MikeSmith> I don't expect that the names are going to change very often
  645. # [14:17] <MikeSmith> oh and of course it means the cases can be distinguished without needing to have a manifest
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  647. # [14:18] <MikeSmith> but anyway I have since implemented support in the validator.nu test runner for checking what specific message the validator is expected to report when it checks the document
  648. # [14:18] <MikeSmith> if any
  649. # [14:18] <MikeSmith> and that kind of obviates the need for the naming convention a bit
  650. # [14:19] <MikeSmith> but I'd still like to keep that naming convention for now, because I think it could be useful to anybody else who might be making another conformance checker and wanting to test it
  651. # [14:19] <zcorpan> ok
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  667. # [14:55] <ondras> Domenic_: you around?
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  673. # [15:07] <jgraham> annevk: So, there are unclear things in URL
  674. # [15:07] <annevk> jgraham: no doubt
  675. # [15:08] <jgraham> When you are parsing a URL, in several places it says "terminate this algorithm". But it's not really clear if that means the overall algorithm and, if so, whether anything is returned
  676. # [15:08] <jgraham> And if not, what you are supposed to do next
  677. # [15:09] <jgraham> Also, it talks about a pointer into input that can't go past the end of input, but then also talks about a nominal EOF character
  678. # [15:09] <jgraham> It's not really clear if the EOF concept is needed
  679. # [15:11] <annevk> jgraham: the parser doesn't have to return anything when state override is given
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  682. # [15:11] <jgraham> So it can return Nothing | Error | ParsedURL ?
  683. # [15:13] <annevk> jgraham: yeah, it either attempts to modify a URL or attempts to construct a new one
  684. # [15:13] <jgraham> So I think it would be easier to follow if that was explicit
  685. # [15:14] <annevk> The EOF-handling might be buggy...
  686. # [15:15] <jgraham> So I think at the moment, if the pointer reaches the end of the input you break out of the loop.
  687. # [15:16] <jgraham> So the EOF case can only happen if the pointer is incremented somewhere other than at the end of the loop
  688. # [15:17] <annevk> Yeah that seems wrong...
  689. # [15:17] <annevk> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23351 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23352
  690. # [15:18] <jgraham> Thanks
  691. # [15:21] * jgraham ended up in a testharness.js-in-servo rabbithole that bottomed out with implementing URL
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  699. # [15:40] <MikeSmith> jgraham: should I use the "Prepare Rebase" button in Critic, or should I just manually rebase onto master from my fork
  700. # [15:41] <MikeSmith> or how do I rebase onto master in Critic?
  701. # [15:41] <jgraham> MikeSmith: "Prepare Rebase" doesn't really work for tracked branches and should probably be hidden
  702. # [15:41] <jgraham> MikeSmith: You want to do the rebase and then use "Rebase Review"
  703. # [15:42] <jgraham> (near the top)
  704. # [15:42] <jgraham> MikeSmith: Which review, so I can help you out if there's a problem?
  705. # [15:42] <MikeSmith> jgraham: https://critic.hoppipolla.co.uk/r/310
  706. # [15:43] <jgraham> OK, so rebase onto master locally
  707. # [15:43] <jgraham> Push the rebase to github
  708. # [15:43] <jgraham> and click "rebase review" in critic
  709. # [15:44] <jgraham> One day I will get around to automating this
  710. # [15:44] <jgraham> Since I *think* GH sends enough information to work out that a rebase occurred
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  715. # [16:00] <annevk> jgraham: yay for implementing URL
  716. # [16:00] <Domenic_> ondras: what's up
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  724. # [16:05] <jgraham> annevk: Well let's see hoe far I get
  725. # [16:06] <jgraham> I need to read the borrowed pointer tutorial so that I don't always end up with the compiler saying "error: cannot move out of dereference of & pointer"
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  729. # [16:09] <Ms2ger> jgraham, heh, that's a nice rabbithole
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  735. # [16:13] <MikeSmith> jgraham: so does https://critic.hoppipolla.co.uk/r/310 look OK now for me to do Rebase Review?
  736. # [16:14] <MikeSmith> what does Update Now do?
  737. # [16:17] <jgraham> Update Now just tries to pull the latest code
  738. # [16:17] <jgraham> So yeah, just try Rebase Review
  739. # [16:20] <MikeSmith> ok done
  740. # [16:20] <MikeSmith> So I can do Close Review? and will that actually push the change?
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  743. # [16:21] <Ms2ger> MikeSmith, no
  744. # [16:21] <Ms2ger> MikeSmith, you manually merge, then close
  745. # [16:21] <MikeSmith> ah OK
  746. # [16:22] <jgraham> Closing should happen automatically if you merge
  747. # [16:22] <jgraham> But I agree we need a "Merge PR" button on critic
  748. # [16:22] <Ms2ger> jgraham, should as in "is expected to" or as in "feature request"?
  749. # [16:23] <MikeSmith> hmm I got an e-mail message saying "The automatic update of the branch... failed and has been disabled. Manual intervention is required to resume the automatic updating."
  750. # [16:23] <MikeSmith> so I musta muffed up something
  751. # [16:23] <MikeSmith> "Rejecting non-fast-forward update of review branch."
  752. # [16:24] <jgraham> MikeSmith: In this case I wouldn't worry much about it
  753. # [16:24] <jgraham> Since you are about to merge anyway
  754. # [16:24] <MikeSmith> ok
  755. # [16:25] <jgraham> Ms2ger: "should" as in "is expected to" in this case
  756. # [16:25] <jgraham> I fixed it yesterday, I think
  757. # [16:25] <Ms2ger> Ah
  758. # [16:25] <Ms2ger> Review one of my patches so I can test? :)
  759. # [16:26] <jgraham> Heh
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  762. # [16:26] <jgraham> Well MikeSmith's review got closed
  763. # [16:26] <jgraham> (also the rebase worked for me)
  764. # [16:27] <MikeSmith> I just closed it manually
  765. # [16:27] <jgraham> Oh
  766. # [16:27] <jgraham> Well that's no fun
  767. # [16:27] <MikeSmith> heh
  768. # [16:27] <MikeSmith> should I have kept it open for some reason?
  769. # [16:28] <jgraham> MikeSmith: No, but it should close itself
  770. # [16:28] <jgraham> Ms2ger: From the logs
  771. # [16:28] <jgraham> [Tue Sep 24 16:17:59 2013] [error] Review <dbutils.review.Review object at 0xa8a565ec>, user User(2, 'Ms2ger', 'Ms2ger@gmail.com', 'Ms2ger')
  772. # [16:28] <jgraham> [Tue Sep 24 16:17:59 2013] [error] Review accepted, closing
  773. # [16:28] <jgraham> [Tue Sep 24 16:17:59 2013] [error] Disabling tracking
  774. # [16:28] <jgraham> (ignore the [error] part)
  775. # [16:29] <Ms2ger> [err... Ah
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  777. # [16:29] <jgraham> So it looks like it worked for one of your reviews at least
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  782. # [16:35] * Ms2ger wonders if anyone is fixing comments on https://critic.hoppipolla.co.uk/r/74
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  790. # [16:47] <gsnedders> Ms2ger: Did you see what I said in logs to you?
  791. # [16:48] <Ms2ger> Yeah, I'll look at that docs thing
  792. # [16:49] <gsnedders> It is like literally the same as the wiki page. :P
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  836. # [18:14] <ondras> Domenic_: so, I am here now. You too? :-)
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  850. # [18:34] * Ms2ger finds "SUCCESS: did not release a single REC or PR between '98 and '08"
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  855. # [18:39] <jgraham> CSS?
  856. # [18:39] <Ms2ger> Yep
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  865. # [18:45] <Domenic_> ondras: well, now i am
  866. # [18:46] <ondras> Domenic_: cool. first of all, thanks for your nice talk at jsconf.eu!
  867. # [18:46] <Domenic_> :)
  868. # [18:47] <ondras> Domenic_: second, I wanted to ask another question about Promises - specifically, about the value Promise is resolved with
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  870. # [18:47] <ondras> Domenic_: is there some reason Promises are designed with only *one* fulfillment/rejection value? When compared to a callback function that can typically accept multiple arguments...
  871. # [18:47] <ondras> (which is, of course, domain-specific)
  872. # [18:47] <Domenic_> ondras: because they parallel synchronous functions, which can only return one return value or throw one exception.
  873. # [18:48] <ondras> yeah, I thought so.
  874. # [18:48] <Domenic_> this allows powerful things like task.js http://taskjs.org/
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  876. # [18:49] <ondras> well, I am in a process of rewriting a callback-based code into a promise-based impl of XHR
  877. # [18:49] <ondras> not sure what the fullfillment value shall be
  878. # [18:49] <ondras> originally, the signature was callback(data, status, headers) or so
  879. # [18:49] <ondras> I guess the common approach is to wrap it into an object, right?
  880. # [18:49] <ondras> because non-200 http status shall not imply promise rejection?
  881. # [18:50] <ondras> *fulfillment, probably. please excuse my poor english.
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  883. # [18:51] <Domenic_> yeah, object seems reasonable. it depends on the API IMO whether non-2xx/3xx status implies rejection
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  885. # [18:52] <Domenic_> just think how you would write the function if you were in a language where I/O was normally synchronous :)
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  889. # [18:57] <ondras> Domenic_: okay, thanks
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  937. # [20:08] <joelcox> I wrote a use case for allowing HTML documents to bind to multimedia buttons a week ago. Annevk recommended me to send to www-dom@w3.org, but I've yet to see any response.
  938. # [20:09] <joelcox> Are there other ways I should pursue to get more eyeballs on this, or assume people are not interested?
  939. # [20:09] <Ms2ger> Patience :)
  940. # [20:10] <Domenic_> the problem is getting implementers interested...
  941. # [20:11] <joelcox> Ms2ger: thanks, I'm just curious about the w3 way of doing things, WHATWG has a nice set by step process
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  943. # [20:12] <Domenic_> Oh, I don't think the w3.org means W3C... it's just where the mailing list is hosted.
  944. # [20:12] <Ms2ger> Well, multimedia buttons sounds like D3E
  945. # [20:12] <joelcox> Domenic_: oh, my bad..
  946. # [20:13] <joelcox> Ms2ger: that's how I tagged it in the subject :)
  947. # [20:13] <joelcox> Ms2ger: if that's an abbreviation for Dom Level 3 events
  948. # [20:13] <Ms2ger> yep
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  950. # [20:14] <Domenic_> most of the people doing actual work are in whatwg, but they just use the w3c mailing lists because they don't want to host their own mail servers...
  951. # [20:15] <joelcox> thanks for the clarification Domenic_
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  954. # [20:19] <Domenic_> fwiw i think your email lays out a great missing feature of the web and agree it should be addressed... the problem is now finding more people with real power, i.e. implementers or maybe certain spec writers, that also care.
  955. # [20:21] <joelcox> Domenic_: Cool, I guess I'll start knocking on some doors
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  960. # [20:28] <joelcox> Hmm, maybe I should look into how FirefoxOS handles this
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  963. # [20:30] <Hixie_> Domenic_: if we need mailing lists, we can add some easily enough, but generally i'd recommend we stick to just whatwg@whatwg.org
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  966. # [20:30] <Hixie_> the way the w3c has a zillion lists causes nothing but troubles
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  968. # [20:30] <Hixie_> bholley: here now
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  978. # [20:48] <joelcox> Hixie_: I scrolled through their list of mailing lists the other day, trying to find www-dom. Never doing that again :)
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  990. # [21:20] <Hixie_> joelcox: you are aware of "find in page", right? :-)
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  992. # [21:22] <joelcox> Hixie_: of course, I was just curious about the lists they had and how long the list of lists was
  993. # [21:22] <Hixie_> hehe
  994. # [21:22] <joelcox> spoiler alert: long
  995. # [21:22] <Hixie_> most of those lists are dead
  996. # [21:22] <Hixie_> but there's no real way to know
  997. # [21:22] <Hixie_> also, there's three lists
  998. # [21:22] <Hixie_> that's just one of them
  999. # [21:23] <joelcox> yeah, and some are prefixed with public-, some are not
  1000. # [21:23] <Hixie_> at some point, for reasons i don't understand, they changed from "www-" and "w3c-" and "w3t-" prefixes to "public-", "member-", and "team-" prefixes.
  1001. # [21:23] <joelcox> (btw, thanks for your work on the web!)
  1002. # [21:24] <joelcox> Didn't they write a spec for that?
  1003. # [21:24] <joelcox> Sorry, couldn't resist :)
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  1005. # [21:27] <Hixie_> oh, bummer.
  1006. # [21:27] <Hixie_> the following statement is now a lie: "Since all these browsing contexts by definition share an event loop, there is always a well-defined sequential order in which their session histories had their entries added."
  1007. # [21:28] <Ms2ger> Eh, well-defined
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  1009. # [21:29] <Hixie_> they don't share an event loop.
  1010. # [21:31] <Hixie_> i wonder how we fix this
  1011. # [21:31] <Hixie_> i guess we post a message to a master event loop
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  1013. # [21:33] <Hixie_> abarth: help
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  1015. # [21:35] <Hixie_> abarth: window.history.length in a multi-process world
  1016. # [21:35] <Hixie_> abarth: do we just return our best guess?
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  1064. # [22:50] <bholley> Hixie_: I've got an hour before my flight boards if you want to talk
  1065. # [22:50] <Hixie_> sure
  1066. # [22:50] <bholley> \o/
  1067. # [22:50] <bholley> Hixie_: so, let's start with prototypes
  1068. # [22:51] <bholley> Hixie_: everyone agrees that each origin should get its own view of xowin.location
  1069. # [22:51] <bholley> Hixie_: so that part's settled
  1070. # [22:51] <Hixie_> "view"?
  1071. # [22:52] <bholley> Hixie_: I'm just trying to be general
  1072. # [22:52] <Hixie_> k
  1073. # [22:52] <bholley> Hixie_: in webkit, you get a separate object
  1074. # [22:52] <bholley> Hixie_: in Gecko, you get an Xray wrapper
  1075. # [22:52] <bholley> Hixie_: but it's indistinguishable from script
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  1077. # [22:52] <bholley> Hixie_: you and I both agree that a single origin should see a consistent value for Object.getPrototype(xowin.location), even if scripts from two same-origin globals are inspecting the same location
  1078. # [22:53] <bholley> Hixie_: the above rules out (2)
  1079. # [22:53] <bholley> Hixie_: and IIUC neither of us wants it to depend on whichever script touches the object first
  1080. # [22:53] <bholley> Hixie_: which rules out (1)
  1081. # [22:53] <Hixie_> yeah that wouldn't make sense at all
  1082. # [22:53] <bholley> Hixie_: right. So we're left with (3) and (4)
  1083. # [22:54] <bholley> Hixie_: (3) being a unique prototype to go along with the unique location object
  1084. # [22:54] <bholley> Hixie_: (4) being null or undefined or throw or somesuch
  1085. # [22:55] <bholley> Hixie_: (3) is roughly what Gecko does, (4) is what everyone else does
  1086. # [22:55] <Hixie_> 4 would be fine by me
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  1088. # [22:55] <Hixie_> i think if we don't do 4 then we want something like:
  1089. # [22:55] <Hixie_> (5) each origin-Location pair gets a unique prototype object for that Location object
  1090. # [22:56] <Hixie_> just like each origin-Location pair gets a unique Location object for that Location object, essentially
  1091. # [22:56] <bholley> Hixie_: isn't that (3)?
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  1093. # [22:56] <Hixie_> if it is, then that sounds fine to me too. your description of (3) confused me a bit.
  1094. # [22:57] <Hixie_> (5) is what i think the spec says today, though apparently not clearly enough
  1095. # [22:57] <bholley> Hixie_: ok, that's fine with me. The only issue is whether the prototype does security checks, and what that all looks like
  1096. # [22:57] <Hixie_> what security checks would it do?
  1097. # [22:58] <bholley> Hixie_: any range of things. In Gecko today, for example, the prototype is an opaque object that throws if you try to do anything to it
  1098. # [22:58] <bholley> Hixie_: though I consider that a bug
  1099. # [22:58] <Hixie_> seems to me like it should just be a regular prototype object as defined in WebIDL?
  1100. # [22:59] <bholley> Hixie_: that's the direction I'd like to move (or rather, making our Xray Wrappers behave that way)
  1101. # [22:59] <bholley> Hixie_: what about polyfill methods on the prototype?
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  1103. # [22:59] <bholley> Hixie_: should those have any effect?
  1104. # [22:59] <bholley> Hixie_: I'm assuming so, just checking
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  1106. # [23:00] <Hixie_> cross-origin? you can't add any, and you don't see the original origin's.
  1107. # [23:01] <bholley> Hixie_: so the Location object isn't a totally normal WebIDL prototype then
  1108. # [23:01] <bholley> Hixie_: er, the prototype of xo location objects
  1109. # [23:01] <bholley> Hixie_: because you're suggesting that we perform some sort of security check when I try to monkeypatch Object.getPrototypeOf(xowin.location)
  1110. # [23:01] <Hixie_> true. that's what the part of the spec says currently says "the user agent must act as if any changes to that Location object's properties, getters, setters, etc, were not present, and as if all the properties of that Location object had their [[Enumerable]] attribute set to false" is trying to say
  1111. # [23:02] <Hixie_> i think that was added for bz
  1112. # [23:02] <Hixie_> personally i like being able to monkey-patch them, if it's only visible same-origin
  1113. # [23:02] <Hixie_> (then again, personally i think we shouldn't expose this cross-origin at all, but that ship has sailed.)
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  1115. # [23:03] <bholley> Hixie_: monkey-patching them introduces a fair amount of implementation complexity. I'm open to it because it's a feature I want in our platform anyway, but we should tread carefully here
  1116. # [23:03] <Hixie_> at the point where you have origin-unique prototypes, isn't it easier to do monkey-patching than not?
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  1118. # [23:04] <Hixie_> (the other thing to consider is what happens when your effective origin changes but you already have a reference to the cross-origin Location object.)
  1119. # [23:04] <bholley> Hixie_: not in Gecko, no. Because the our origin-unique prototypes are actually XrayWrappers. Currently those XrayWrappers forward directly to the underlying DOM object, so we'd need some sort of mechanism to say "check the Xray prototype chain"
  1120. # [23:05] <Hixie_> right, but that's because they're not "real" prototypes
  1121. # [23:06] <bholley> Hixie_: sure. And they never will be
  1122. # [23:06] <Hixie_> oh
  1123. # [23:06] <Hixie_> why?
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  1125. # [23:06] <Hixie_> if that's what we're trying to fake, why not just do it?
  1126. # [23:06] <bholley> Hixie_: because it would require re-designing our engine to do what webkit does
  1127. # [23:06] <Hixie_> you'd rather they redesigned their engine to do what you do? :-)
  1128. # [23:07] <bholley> Hixie_: no. I'm saying that we should spec something that we can both implement easily
  1129. # [23:07] <bholley> Hixie_: which is why I want the spec to be implementable with either XrayWrappers or Webkit-style separate worlds
  1130. # [23:08] <bholley> Hixie_: I'm just saying that's why we're not going to "just do it"
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  1132. # [23:08] <Hixie_> ah, ok, if the additional constraint is "implementable with either XrayWrappers or Webkit-style separate worlds", then what would be best for authors kinda goes out of the window
  1133. # [23:08] <Hixie_> what is implementable by both?
  1134. # [23:10] <bholley> Hixie_: I mean, authors are a consideration too. But it doesn't serve authors to spec something Gecko-like that webkit won't implement and vice-versa
  1135. # [23:10] <bholley> Hixie_: especially when it comes to edge cases like this that nobody (currently) relies on anyway
  1136. # [23:10] <Hixie_> sure
  1137. # [23:11] <Hixie_> i just wasn't considering that constraint before
  1138. # [23:11] <Hixie_> i don't know what options we have, with that constraint (i don't mean i don't think we have any, i mean literally, i don't know what they are)
  1139. # [23:12] <bholley> Hixie_: so, in terms of prototypes, we could implement either (3) or (4)
  1140. # [23:12] <bholley> Hixie_: so the first step is to check with abarth and see if he's willing to do something other than (4)
  1141. # [23:12] <bholley> Hixie_: if we decide to do something along the lines of (3)
  1142. # [23:12] <Hixie_> where (3) is (5) with teh additional restriction that you can't touch it, right?
  1143. # [23:12] <Hixie_> as in, can't mutate it. unless you're the "original" owner
  1144. # [23:12] <bholley> Hixie_: no. I'm considering (3) and (5) the same at this point
  1145. # [23:13] <Hixie_> the one whose origin matches the document for which Location was created
  1146. # [23:13] <bholley> Hixie_: _if_ we go that option, then we need to figure out the details
  1147. # [23:13] <bholley> Hixie_: the details including "whether you can monkeypatch"
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  1149. # [23:13] <bholley> Hixie_: what works best for that depends largely on how each implementation implements its security checks on |location|
  1150. # [23:14] <Hixie_> let's assume we pick 3, for the sake of this conversation: you'd rather we didn't allow the object or its prototype(s) to be mutatable at all by origins that aren't the origin of the Document for which the Location exists, right?
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  1153. # [23:15] <bholley> Hixie_: correct
  1154. # [23:15] <bholley> Hixie_: but I'm open to doing it differently
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  1156. # [23:15] <bholley> Hixie_: just note that it adds complexity, and there might be snakes in the grass that make it harder than I'm predicting
  1157. # [23:16] <Hixie_> the less complexity we add, the happier i am
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  1160. # [23:16] <Hixie_> so, as far as i can tell, the spec right now describes exactly what we're saying here. just not very well.
  1161. # [23:16] <bholley> Hixie_: ok, great
  1162. # [23:17] <bholley> Hixie_: so if that's settled, we can get back to the original issue of security checks on location. Are you ready to discuss that?
  1163. # [23:17] <Hixie_> as ready as i'll ever be
  1164. # [23:18] <bholley> Hixie_: ok, so
  1165. # [23:19] <bholley> Hixie_: my reasoning was in comment 34 and comment 36, until comment 37 took us on the prototype chain digression
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  1168. # [23:20] <bholley> Hixie_: I can resummarize here if you want - not sure if you prefer depth or brevity
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  1171. # [23:21] <Hixie_> bholley: i'm agnostic on depth vs brevity, it's just an area i find incredibly hard to wrap my head around.
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  1173. # [23:21] <Hixie_> bholley: (so, sorry if i'm being so slow in general with this)
  1174. # [23:21] <bholley> Hixie_: don't worry about it - I spend all day on this, and you have to deal with the whole web :-)
  1175. # [23:22] <Hixie_> ok, just reread 34 and 36
  1176. # [23:22] <bholley> Hixie_: so, we've got 2 origins of interest (bc origin and doc origin), and 2 places security checks can be performed (ES-level property access, and method invocation)
  1177. # [23:22] <Hixie_> my response now, as then, was 35 and 37. ;-)
  1178. # [23:23] <bholley> Hixie_: lol
  1179. # [23:23] <Hixie_> we have at least 2 origins of interest, maybe more
  1180. # [23:23] <Hixie_> we have several places security checks can be performed, i agree those are two of them
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  1182. # [23:26] <Hixie_> (on a side note, if anyone has a recent IE, can you tell me what it does with http://www.hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/dom/level0/history/cross-origin/001.html ? thanks)
  1183. # [23:27] <Hixie_> bholley: (i have to bail in about 15 minutes)
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  1185. # [23:27] <bholley> Hixie_: great, me too
  1186. # [23:27] <bholley> Hixie_: so, do we agree about the method-call checks against bc origin?
  1187. # [23:27] <bholley> (that they are necessary)
  1188. # [23:29] <Hixie_> hmm
  1189. # [23:30] <Hixie_> yes, because we don't want to be able to use our location object's methods on thir location object and thus bypass the property get check
  1190. # [23:30] <Hixie_> (that's bug 22346)
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  1192. # [23:31] <Hixie_> (except for location.replace(), which we always want to allow)
  1193. # [23:31] <bholley> Hixie_: right
  1194. # [23:31] <Hixie_> (well, except in the additional case we want to disallow, bullet 4 in comment 32)
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  1197. # [23:32] <bholley> Hixie_: ok, great
  1198. # [23:32] * Joins: annevk (~annevk@cpe-67-243-22-65.nyc.res.rr.com)
  1199. # [23:32] <Hixie_> (the fact that this discussion involves terms like "the Location object's associated Document's browsing context's active document's effective script origin" is not helping my sanity score)
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  1201. # [23:32] <bholley> Hixie_: hey, you designed this stuff :-)
  1202. # [23:32] <Hixie_> "designed"
  1203. # [23:33] <bholley> Hixie_: so. I argue that we need an additional mechanism to prevent multiple third-party origins from seeing each others expandos on a given location object
  1204. # [23:33] <Hixie_> (this job has far more in common with my physics background than it has any right to have)
  1205. # [23:33] <Hixie_> bholley: right, but if we just disallow "expandos", that is, setting properties, that's a non-issue, right?
  1206. # [23:33] <Hixie_> setting properties cross-origin
  1207. # [23:33] <bholley> Hixie_: but we can't disallow expandos. The web depends on it
  1208. # [23:33] <ebollens> (but physics teaches entropy only increases)
  1209. # [23:34] <bholley> Hixie_: the web depends on script being able to set expandos on the Location object associated with its Document
  1210. # [23:34] <Hixie_> bholley: it doesn't depend on it for cross-origin Location object access, does it?
  1211. # [23:34] <Hixie_> sure, on your own is fine
  1212. # [23:34] <bholley> Hixie_: it depends how we define "cross-origin"
  1213. # [23:34] <bholley> Hixie_: that's the whole issue here
  1214. # [23:34] <Hixie_> (by "expando" you just mean a non-IDL-defined property, right?)
  1215. # [23:34] <bholley> Hixie_: yes
  1216. # [23:34] <bholley> Hixie_: sorry for the Geckoism
  1217. # [23:35] <Hixie_> i think it's actually an IEism originally :-)
  1218. # [23:35] <Hixie_> just making sure
  1219. # [23:35] <bholley> Hixie_: so, I totally agree with what you're saying, assuming "cross-origin" in this case is defined in terms of the Document origin, not the BC origin
  1220. # [23:35] <bholley> Hixie_: which is what I'm advocating for in this bug
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  1222. # [23:35] <Hixie_> browsing contexts don't have origins
  1223. # [23:36] <bholley> Hixie_: I know. But I'm using the shorthand I proposed
  1224. # [23:36] <bholley> Hixie_: BC origin = "the origin associated with the document whose window is the active window in the browsing context"
  1225. # [23:36] <Hixie_> by "cross-origin" i mean that a script whose effective origin is different than the Location object's associated Document's effective script origin
  1226. # [23:36] <bholley> Hixie_: great
  1227. # [23:36] <bholley> Hixie_: that's how I think of it too
  1228. # [23:37] <bholley> Hixie_: which is what I'm pushing for here
  1229. # [23:37] <Hixie_> wait. i don't think the origin of the active document of the browsing context of the Document of the Location object is relevant here.
  1230. # [23:37] <Hixie_> what i said was different than what you said.
  1231. # [23:37] <bholley> :-)
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  1233. # [23:38] <bholley> Hixie_: so, 10 minutes ago, we agreed that we need to do a security check against bc origin at method call time
  1234. # [23:38] <bholley> Hixie_: right?
  1235. # [23:38] <bholley> Hixie_: that's how I'm defining bc origin
  1236. # [23:38] <Ms2ger> r? https://critic.hoppipolla.co.uk/r/208
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  1238. # [23:38] <Hixie_> oh i assumed you mean the origin of the calling script
  1239. # [23:39] <Hixie_> the Location object's "native origin" is the origin of the Document with which it's associated, right?
  1240. # [23:39] <Hixie_> that's the one that should be allowed to extend the Location object
  1241. # [23:39] <bholley> Hixie_: sure. "native origin" is a good term
  1242. # [23:39] <bholley> Hixie_: yes
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  1244. # [23:40] <Hixie_> if that document's browsing context's active document happens to get hold of the Location object of an earlier document, it shouldn't see those extensions, and shouldn't be able to add any itself.
  1245. # [23:40] <Hixie_> it has its own Location object to mess with.
  1246. # [23:40] <bholley> Hixie_: righto
  1247. # [23:40] <Hixie_> (it has its own family of Location objects)
  1248. # [23:41] <Hixie_> (one for each origin)
  1249. # [23:41] <Hixie_> (but we'll pretend they're one for now)
  1250. # [23:41] <Hixie_> (or i guess, it has one Location object with a family of prototypes)
  1251. # [23:41] <Hixie_> (or some crazy thing. what we discussed before.)
  1252. # [23:41] <bholley> (I think there was only one prototype in what we discussed before. but whatever. let's finish this thing here)
  1253. # [23:42] <bholley> Hixie_: hence, my proposal is that property-access checks use the "native origin"
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  1255. # [23:42] <Hixie_> ok, i agree with that. it's not the "bc origin", though.
  1256. # [23:43] <bholley> Hixie_: agreed. I didn't mean to imply otherwise
  1257. # [23:43] <Hixie_> (that is, it might not be the origin of any of the active documents)
  1258. # [23:43] <bholley> Hixie_: sure
  1259. # [23:43] <Hixie_> ok so i'm confusd by "we need to do a security check against bc origin" then
  1260. # [23:43] <Hixie_> during method calls
  1261. # [23:43] <Hixie_> why would method call checks use something different than the property checks?
  1262. # [23:44] <bholley> Hixie_: because of what you said: "Hixie_: yes, because we don't want to be able to use our location object's methods on thir location object and thus bypass the property get check"
  1263. # [23:44] <bholley> Hixie_: or maybe I didn't fully understand you
  1264. # [23:44] <bholley> Hixie_: but let's step back
  1265. # [23:44] <bholley> Hixie_: the reason for the bc method-call checks
  1266. # [23:45] <Hixie_> we don't want a script in origin B to call a method on a Location object whose native origin is A using the method from one of B's Location objects
  1267. # [23:45] <bholley> Hixie_: ok, that's a different issue. Sorry
  1268. # [23:45] <bholley> Hixie_: the reason for the bc method-calls checks
  1269. # [23:46] <bholley> Hixie_: is that, per-spec, the Location object describes the URL of the active document in the BC
  1270. # [23:46] * Joins: rektide (~rektide@eldergods.com)
  1271. # [23:46] * Joins: jonathanmarvens (~jonathanm@c-50-157-151-94.hsd1.ma.comcast.net)
  1272. # [23:47] <bholley> Hixie_: which means that, if evil.com navigates itself to bank.com, evil.com's window.location describes the URL of bank.com's document
  1273. # [23:47] <Hixie_> sure, so the _properties_ need to do a check against the active document
  1274. # [23:47] <Hixie_> but you said the methods
  1275. # [23:48] <bholley> Hixie_: are you making a distinction between .toString() and .href?
  1276. # [23:48] <bholley> Hixie_: I'm using 'method' to refer to 'methods, getters, and setters'
  1277. # [23:49] <Hixie_> oh, well, that's confusing :-)
  1278. # [23:49] <Hixie_> i'd actually forgotten about toString()
  1279. # [23:49] <Hixie_> but in any case, looks like comment 32 agrees with you
  1280. # [23:49] <bholley> Hixie_: I'm trying to distinguish between ES-level property access - Object.getOwnPropertyDescriptor()
  1281. # [23:49] * Quits: marcosc_ (~marcosc@bl8-174-185.dsl.telepac.pt) (Remote host closed the connection)
  1282. # [23:49] <bholley> Hixie_: and DOM-level code, which is what happens when you invoke methods or getters or setters
  1283. # [23:50] * Joins: marcosc (~marcosc@bl8-174-185.dsl.telepac.pt)
  1284. # [23:50] * Quits: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@177.237-64-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be) (Quit: nn)
  1285. # [23:50] <Hixie_> oh, ok. that wasn't clear.
  1286. # [23:51] <bholley> Hixie_: my apologies
  1287. # [23:51] <Hixie_> why do we need to do any checks at the property descriptor level?
  1288. # [23:51] <bholley> Hixie_: because of the expando thing
  1289. # [23:51] <Hixie_> if all Location objects pretend to be virgin objects cross-origin, you can't get anthing interesting that way
  1290. # [23:51] * Quits: nimbu (~nimbu@sjfw1-b.adobe.com) (Quit: Leaving.)
  1291. # [23:52] <Hixie_> i have to bail again, sorry. let me know when you're back on the ground and we can continue this?
  1292. # [23:52] <bholley> Hixie_: yeah, sounds good. Note that I'll be in France
  1293. # [23:52] <Hixie_> k
  1294. # [23:52] <bholley> Hixie_: but some evening-for-me-morning-for-you we can get back to this
  1295. # [23:52] <bholley> Hixie_: and thanks for taking the time here
  1296. # [23:52] <Hixie_> keep pinging me, my schedule is all out of wack these days
  1297. # [23:52] <Hixie_> thank _you_ for putting up with my difficultis :-)
  1298. # [23:52] <Hixie_> we'll figure it out
  1299. # [23:52] <Hixie_> bbl
  1300. # [23:53] <Hixie_> have a good flight
  1301. # [23:53] <bholley> Hixie_: thanks
  1302. # [23:54] * Quits: marcosc (~marcosc@bl8-174-185.dsl.telepac.pt) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
  1303. # [23:55] * Quits: bholley (~bholley@216.9.110.1) (Quit: bholley)
  1304. # [23:56] * Joins: sicking (~sicking@v-1045.fw1.sfo1.mozilla.net)
  1305. # [23:58] * Joins: baku (~baku@2-236-39-253.ip231.fastwebnet.it)
  1306. # Session Close: Thu Sep 26 00:00:00 2013

The end :)