/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2013-09-27 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Sep 27 00:00:00 2013
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] <Hixie_> no kidding :-)
  4. # [00:00] <Hixie_> any JS libraries have dialog APIs?
  5. # [00:00] <Jasper> ext.js has one I believe.
  6. # [00:00] <Jasper> Google Closure Toolkit has another.
  7. # [00:01] <Hixie_> jquery seems to have one
  8. # [00:01] <Jasper> http://docs.closure-library.googlecode.com/git/class_goog_ui_Dialog.html
  9. # [00:01] <Hixie_> woot, jquery has open(). finally found one that uses open().
  10. # [00:01] <Jasper> though I'm not sure if Google still uses Closure Toolkit
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  12. # [00:05] <Hixie_> closure seems to use setVisible(), ew
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  14. # [00:05] <gsnedders> Hixie_: And a lot of really weird UA sniffing.
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  19. # [00:11] <Hixie_> Android uses show() and dismiss()
  20. # [00:11] <Hixie_> Closure uses setVisible()
  21. # [00:11] <Hixie_> Cocoa uses makeKeyAndOrderFront:, orderOut:, close, and performClose:.
  22. # [00:11] <Hixie_> Delphi uses Show(), ShowModal(), Hide(), and Close().
  23. # [00:11] <Hixie_> Ext JS uses show(), hide(), and close().
  24. # [00:11] <Hixie_> jQuery uses "open" and "close".
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  26. # [00:11] <Hixie_> Gtk uses gtk_widget_show(), gtk_dialog_run(), gtk_window_close().
  27. # [00:12] <Hixie_> .NET uses Show(), ShowDialog(), Hide(), and Close().
  28. # [00:12] <Hixie_> Win32 uses ShowWindow() and CloseWindow().
  29. # [00:12] <Hixie_> X11 uses XMapWindow() and XUnmapWindow()
  30. # [00:12] <Hixie_> any others i should look at?
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  33. # [00:15] <Hixie_> ok, sending e-mail.
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  46. # [00:33] <crocket> Is there a channel for W3C?
  47. # [00:34] <crocket> #w3c is not the one.
  48. # [00:34] <jsbell> crocket: any specific part?
  49. # [00:34] <crocket> just w3c
  50. # [00:34] <crocket> W3C consortium
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  52. # [00:36] <TabAtkins> You want irc.w3.org
  53. # [00:36] <jsbell> crocket: http://www.w3.org/Project/IRC/ may be useful
  54. # [00:37] <crocket> They left freenode.
  55. # [00:38] <crocket> Does HTML5 define browser object model?
  56. # [00:39] <Hixie_> kind of
  57. # [00:39] <Hixie_> depends on what you mean by that
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  59. # [00:39] <Hixie_> http://dom.spec.whatwg.org/ may be what you mean, or http://whatwg.org/html#document maybe
  60. # [00:40] <crocket> Hixie_: BOM isn't DOM.
  61. # [00:41] <Hixie_> not sure what you mean then
  62. # [00:41] <Hixie_> can you elaborate?
  63. # [00:41] <Hixie_> GPHemsley: you still working on mimesniff?
  64. # [00:42] <Hixie_> GPHemsley: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-whatwg-archive/2013Aug/0276.html
  65. # [00:42] <crocket> Hixie_: DOM == document
  66. # [00:42] <crocket> BOM == a subset of window
  67. # [00:43] <Hixie_> http://whatwg.org/html#window ?
  68. # [00:43] <gsnedders> crocket: The Window interface is in HTML
  69. # [00:43] <crocket> Does HTML5 define the entirety of BOM?
  70. # [00:43] <Hixie_> i don't know what BOM is exactly, so i can't say
  71. # [00:44] <Hixie_> describe the entirety of it, and I'll tell you whether any of it is missing :-)
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  73. # [00:45] <crocket> Hixie_: "Object oriented javascript", a book, defines BOM as "The Browser Object Model (BOM) is a collection of objects that give you access to the browser and the computer screen. These objects are accessible through the global object window."
  74. # [00:45] <Hixie_> ah, then no, that's not all in HTML. There's also a bunch of it in CSSOM, CSSOM Views, and various other specs.
  75. # [00:46] <crocket> CSSOM?
  76. # [00:46] <Hixie_> CSS Object Model
  77. # [00:46] <Hixie_> CSS is Cascading Stylesheets
  78. # [00:46] <crocket> How does CSS define it?
  79. # [00:47] <Hixie_> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/cssom/
  80. # [00:47] <Hixie_> and http://dev.w3.org/csswg/cssom-view/
  81. # [00:47] <crocket> Does CSS have any API accessible from javascript?
  82. # [00:47] <Hixie_> those two specs define that api
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  85. # [00:57] <Domenic_> Hixie_: I think the most important thing is consistency between the attribute/property and the method name. (Assume the attribute and property are the same; anything else is insanity) If the method changes the attribute, it should be connected.
  86. # [00:58] <Domenic_> Hixie_: thus I feel like show() + open is not so good. show() + shown is good. Maybe open() + isOpen/opened or similar
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  91. # [01:00] <Hixie_> "isopen" reads like "iso pen". "opened" is past tense, which is inconsistent with basically everything.
  92. # [01:00] <Domenic_> yeah not sure there's any good answers
  93. # [01:00] <Domenic_> for a counterpart to open() at least
  94. # [01:00] <Hixie_> i don't think it's a problem to have .show() set .open to true. it's not that confusing.
  95. # [01:01] <Domenic_> isindex reads let isin dex? :P
  96. # [01:01] <Domenic_> i think that's pretty confusing
  97. # [01:01] <Domenic_> is it open or is it shown?
  98. # [01:01] <Domenic_> what's the difference?
  99. # [01:01] <Hixie_> "isin" and "dex" aren't words
  100. # [01:01] <Hixie_> when you open the dialog, it is shown
  101. # [01:01] <Hixie_> when you show the dialog, it opens
  102. # [01:01] <Domenic_> but it's not open?
  103. # [01:01] <Hixie_> it's fine
  104. # [01:02] <Domenic_> meh. i disagree it's fine. but that's my 2cents, not much more to say.
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  107. # [01:02] <Hixie_> i think in practice people won't use open="" much anyway
  108. # [01:02] <Hixie_> so it won't be an issue even if people are confused by it
  109. # [01:02] <Hixie_> bbiab
  110. # [01:03] <Domenic_> People will use it in CSS a lot I think
  111. # [01:03] <Domenic_> transitions/animations between dialog:not([open]) and dialog[open]
  112. # [01:05] <crocket> Hixie_: Do you think BOM is split between HTML and CSS?
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  114. # [01:06] <Domenic_> crocket: BOM is just something the author of that book made up; it is not a real concept
  115. # [01:07] <Domenic_> it has no meaning in terms of implementations or specs
  116. # [01:07] <crocket> Domenic_: What the hell
  117. # [01:07] <Domenic_> I know, bad book, right?
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  119. # [01:09] <crocket> Domenic_: not sure it's a bad book
  120. # [01:12] <Domenic_> i dunno, maybe just the number of recruiters using the term "object oriented javascript" has given it bad associations in my mind.
  121. # [01:13] <crocket> Domenic_: you mean employers?
  122. # [01:13] <crocket> Domenic_: object orientation in smalltalk is a good thing.
  123. # [01:14] <jarek> are you talking about "Object Oriented JavaScript" by Zakas?
  124. # [01:14] <jarek> it's terrible book by todays standards
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  127. # [01:14] <jarek> I would rather stick with the terms in the spec, even if they are confusing
  128. # [01:16] <crocket> jarek: I mean http://www.amazon.com/Object-Oriented-JavaScript-Edition-Stoyan-Stefanov/dp/1849693129/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1380237353&sr=8-1&keywords=object+oriented+javascript
  129. # [01:16] <crocket> Authors sent an early draft of the book, and it was published without correction.
  130. # [01:16] <crocket> So code examples aren't indented at all!!!
  131. # [01:16] <jarek> crocket: ahh, that's the best JS book for beginners I have read
  132. # [01:16] <crocket> But overall, its content is fine.
  133. # [01:16] <crocket> jarek: How many JS books have you read?
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  135. # [01:17] <jarek> crocket: I read Crockford, Zakas and few others
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  137. # [01:18] <crocket> How about "JavaScript: The Good Parts"?
  138. # [01:18] <jarek> crocket: it feels more like an academic paper than a book :P
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  140. # [01:19] <crocket> jarek: Does it teach how to avoid bad parts?
  141. # [01:19] <jarek> crocket: yes, I guess it was the first book to teach JS the right way
  142. # [01:20] <crocket> So far, I've read elequent javascript, and I'm reading object oriented javascript.
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  144. # [01:21] <jarek> crocket: if I were to learn JS now, I wouldn't bother reading more than one book
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  146. # [01:21] <jarek> crocket: the most valuable information is on the web now
  147. # [01:21] <crocket> What is the one book?
  148. # [01:21] <jarek> crocket: e.g. check http://killdream.github.io/2011/10/09/understanding-javascript-oop.html
  149. # [01:22] <jarek> there is no book that would discuss JS object system in such detail ^
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  151. # [01:22] <jarek> crocket: I would pick Stefanov
  152. # [01:22] <jarek> crocket: Eloquent JS seems to be biased towards functional programming
  153. # [01:23] <crocket> jarek: functional programming was good.
  154. # [01:23] <crocket> Stefanov?
  155. # [01:23] <jarek> crocket: yeah, the one you have linked earlier
  156. # [01:23] <crocket> object oriented javascript?
  157. # [01:24] <jarek> crocket: yes, though if you are already experienced programmer (in other language) then I would jump right into Crockford
  158. # [01:24] <crocket> jarek: I'm confused.
  159. # [01:25] <crocket> Referring to books by authors is confusing.
  160. # [01:25] <crocket> I don't remember author names.
  161. # [01:25] <jarek> crocket: I don't remember book names :P
  162. # [01:25] <jarek> crocket: Crockford == JS Good parts (or something like this)
  163. # [01:26] <jarek> I mean ===
  164. # [01:26] <crocket> jarek: One author could have written various books.
  165. # [01:26] <jarek> crocket: several authors could have written books with the same title
  166. # [01:27] <Philip`> All you need to remember is the ISBN
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  204. # [03:07] <Domenic_> crocket: no I mean recruiters. "HTML5/CSS3, Object oriented JavaScript, and jQuery experience preferred."
  205. # [03:08] <zewt> heh, well, being able to use JS in an OO-fashion is actually probably a pretty decent metric of someone who can actually write sensible JS
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  237. # [05:47] <crocket> zewt, not very
  238. # [05:48] <crocket> A recruiter has to actually read codes.
  239. # [05:48] <crocket> A recruiter has to actually read codes written by applicants.
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  251. # [06:24] <zewt> (that doesn't seem to have anything to do with what I said)
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  356. # [12:21] <jgraham> anyone know anything about http://w3c-test.org/web-platform-tests/master/eventsource/eventsource-cross-origin.htm ?
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  358. # [12:24] <Ms2ger> Mmm
  359. # [12:24] <Ms2ger> Blame says you
  360. # [12:24] <Ms2ger> The <--/*--> hack says zcorpan
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  362. # [12:27] <jgraham> It wasn't me!
  363. # [12:28] <zcorpan> i don't see <!--/*--> there
  364. # [12:28] <zcorpan> but i think odinho wrote the eventsource+cors tests
  365. # [12:28] <Ms2ger> Oh
  366. # [12:28] <zcorpan> and annevk wrote the initial set of eventsource tests
  367. # [12:28] <Ms2ger> That was in another file
  368. # [12:29] <zcorpan> ondinho might have copied my hack for all i know :-)
  369. # [12:30] <zcorpan> i have probably reviewed the eventsource tests so i might know something about them. what's the question?
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  372. # [12:32] <jgraham> The second test always times out afaict
  373. # [12:33] <jgraham> Any idea why?
  374. # [12:33] <jgraham> I mean, is it a broken test or a correct test that doesn't match implementations
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  388. # [13:14] <zcorpan> jgraham: the test seems correct from what i can tell. "HTTP 301 Moved Permanently, 302 Found, 303 See Other, and 307 Temporary Redirect responses are handled by the fetching and CORS algorithms." http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/comms.html#processing-model-7
  389. # [13:15] <zcorpan> but i don't have the cors stuff paged in
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  392. # [13:17] <jgraham> So
  393. # [13:18] <jgraham> Chrome and Firefox fail "EventSource: cross-origin redirect use"
  394. # [13:18] <zcorpan> hmm, i think the redirect script needs CORS headers for the redirect to succeed
  395. # [13:19] <jgraham> Opera 12 and Firefox fail "EventSource: cross-origin redirect use recon" on localhost, but not on w3c-test.org
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  397. # [13:19] <jgraham> Chrome passes
  398. # [13:20] <jgraham> I can't tell if this is because I have broken things in my conversion, but they utterly refuse to send cookies with the cross-origin event source request
  399. # [13:20] <jgraham> (on localhost)
  400. # [13:20] <Ms2ger> r? https://critic.hoppipolla.co.uk/r/208
  401. # [13:20] <zcorpan> but message.php also doesn't use CORS headers, which it should have i think
  402. # [13:20] <zcorpan> i'll ask odin
  403. # [13:21] <jgraham> cors.php adds CORS headers to everything
  404. # [13:21] <jgraham> So maybe it should redirect to cors.php with message as the handler?
  405. # [13:21] <zcorpan> aha
  406. # [13:21] <zcorpan> that's the thing
  407. # [13:22] <jgraham> Oh and Opera doesn't show Event Source in the network tab
  408. # [13:22] <zcorpan> the redirect works, but message.php fails the cors check
  409. # [13:22] <zcorpan> so the test is broken
  410. # [13:22] <jgraham> and Firefox won't let me copy the response
  411. # [13:24] <jgraham> zcorpan: OK, fixed that test
  412. # [13:24] <jgraham> One left
  413. # [13:26] <zcorpan> Ms2ger: btw it seems i wrote the eventsource+worker tests
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  416. # [13:28] <jgraham> Is there anything special I should know wrt CORS and cookies on localhost or non-default ports? I don't see anything, but I am not a CORS expert
  417. # [13:29] <jgraham> Oh awesome, the test works on reload in Opera
  418. # [13:29] <jgraham> So there is obviously something stateful there
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  420. # [13:29] <Oliver_> Hi
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  422. # [13:32] <MikeSmith> I don't think /win 21
  423. # [13:32] <MikeSmith> oofs
  424. # [13:33] <jgraham> Was that "oofs" the "Descartes pop" as MikeSmith vanished?
  425. # [13:36] <MikeSmith> heheh
  426. # [13:50] * Krinkle|detached is now known as Krinkle
  427. # [13:50] <darobin> Descartes pop?
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  431. # [13:52] <MikeSmith> those were actually my Kirby krackle
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  436. # [14:02] <MikeSmith> in the "why o god why" department, on a chance visit to #developers to offer my condolences to bz on becoming a W3C editor, I discover that virtualbox is using xpcom
  437. # [14:02] <MikeSmith> proof that mental illness is contagious?
  438. # [14:11] <MikeSmith> oh god a "srcN attribute"
  439. # [14:11] <MikeSmith> (speaking of mental illness)
  440. # [14:12] <MikeSmith> sorry I meant to write, What a great idea!!
  441. # [14:13] <MikeSmith> I want whatever hippy crack all the responsive images folks are smoking
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  443. # [14:23] <Ms2ger> Ask TabAtkins :)
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  445. # [14:26] <jgraham> Yeah, numbered attributes are kind of ugly
  446. # [14:27] <jgraham> Makes you wish HTML had more than just string types really
  447. # [14:27] <Ms2ger> I should deal with those File API tests
  448. # [14:29] <zcorpan> TabAtkins: is www-style the right list for the respimg proposal?
  449. # [14:30] <Ms2ger> Didn't they hide in a CG with its own ML?
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  453. # [14:36] <zcorpan> there's a separate mailing list, but tab's draft says to send feedback to www-style
  454. # [14:37] <jgraham> Yeah, but it also seems rather likely to just be because all his other drafts say that
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  457. # [14:44] <MikeSmith> I don't think we'd be able to implement microsyntax checking of srcN values without some ugly hack
  458. # [14:45] <darobin> yeah, I don't reckon that www-style is the right place, I reckon TabAtkins just pasted his usual Bikeshed empty draft or whatever
  459. # [14:47] <MikeSmith> I think what we'd need to do is to add a filter that changes all the srcN attributes in memory to some other arbitrary single attribute name to which we could actually bind some syntax-checking. I think I'd go with "TabAtkins" is that attribute name. Either that or "xpcom".
  460. # [14:49] * darobin wonders why MikeSmith would have to do that...
  461. # [14:49] * zcorpan too
  462. # [14:50] <jgraham> Presumably because the code assumes that each microsyntax is bound to a finite set of attributes
  463. # [14:52] <MikeSmith> because the validator backend by default considers any attribute invalid unless it's explicitly told that it's valid
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  465. # [14:52] <darobin> ah
  466. # [14:53] <MikeSmith> and there is no way to tell that core part of the validator that a pattern or wildcard for an attribute name is valid
  467. # [14:53] <darobin> but since you're going to have to add support for matching on patterns for the hyphen-attributes anyway, you can also do src\d+ at the same time
  468. # [14:53] * darobin giggles and hides
  469. # [14:53] <MikeSmith> so if as src1000 attribute is exposed to that part of the validator as-is, it will emit an error
  470. # [14:53] <MikeSmith> hah
  471. # [14:54] <darobin> how do you handle data-*?
  472. # [14:54] <MikeSmith> well in the case of hyphen-attributes there are many more reasons what that's plainly a bad idea that have nothing to do with the validator
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  474. # [14:56] <darobin> yeah yeah, but how do you have data-*? does the same trick not work with srcN?
  475. # [14:56] <MikeSmith> darobin: I'll send a reply on the list but as far as validation, consider what happens when an author misttypes aria-described-by as aria-descibes-by
  476. # [14:57] <darobin> MikeSmith: I was thinking it would be more of a problem if the author mistyped aira-described-by
  477. # [14:57] <MikeSmith> I'm pretty sure we just completely drop the data-* attributes and don't do any checking on their values
  478. # [14:57] <MikeSmith> expect that the parser checks the values for parse errors
  479. # [14:57] <darobin> since I'd expect the validator to look at the prefix of attributes it knows about
  480. # [14:57] <darobin> ah, so you drop them before, makes sense
  481. # [14:58] * darobin looks forward to the TabAtkins attribute then
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  484. # [14:58] <MikeSmith> darobin: the validator does not have any concept of what a prefix is
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  487. # [14:59] <darobin> MikeSmith: I'd guess, but that's a SMOP :)
  488. # [14:59] <MikeSmith> it only understands explicit names
  489. # [14:59] <MikeSmith> darobin: sure
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  491. # [15:01] <MikeSmith> but like most SMOP it would simple only to the people who don't have to SMOP it and maintain it
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  516. # [15:35] <GPHemsley> Hixie_: I was discussing the issue with bz off-list at the time. (Mozila IRC, IIRC.)
  517. # [15:36] <GPHemsley> Hixie_: As I told him then, I was waiting for others to respond before I said/did anything. The main problem with mimesniff is that no one pays any attention to it.
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  519. # [15:37] <GPHemsley> Hixie_: I never get any feedback from anybody unless I specifically go and request it (or else do something that offends someone's sensibilities wrt spec writing).
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  523. # [15:39] <hallvors> Hixie_: if you've got a moment, comments on https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=881072#c44 would be welcome.. (Sorry to interrupt, GPHemsley)
  524. # [15:39] <GPHemsley> hallvors: No worries. I imagine Hixie_ is sleeping anyway.
  525. # [15:41] <hallvors> You mean you're trying to interfere with his dreams, asking questions on IRC? Do spec writers dream in chat channels? ;-)
  526. # [15:41] <GPHemsley> I think Hixie_ dreams in cat channels
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  530. # [15:45] <jgraham> hallvors: !
  531. # [15:45] <jgraham> Did the cors tests ever work properly? Do you in fact know about those or only the XHR ones?
  532. # [15:46] <hallvors> jgraham: haven't looked much at the CORS tests (but there are a handful of CORS tests in the XHR suite now)
  533. # [15:47] <jgraham> hallvors: I remember you poking at getting cors headers working on w3c-test.org
  534. # [15:48] <hallvors> yes, but that was probably to get the XHR suite working :-p
  535. # [15:48] <jgraham> Oh, OK
  536. # [15:48] <hallvors> who worked on the CORS suite? Odin?
  537. # [15:49] * jgraham wonders what PHP does if you send it mutliple request headers with the same name
  538. # [15:49] <jgraham> hallvors: Yeah
  539. # [15:49] <jgraham> He is MIA though
  540. # [15:49] <jgraham> Or at least not in the channel, which is more or less the same thing
  541. # [15:51] <jgraham> (the documentation doesn't say. It doesn't even say that all headers end up in $_SERVER)
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  556. # [16:15] <annevk> hallvors: I recommend getting zcorpan to look at https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=881072#c44
  557. # [16:18] <annevk> hallvors: in any event, stable states are provided all the time
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  560. # [16:19] <hallvors> I would expect a "stable state" after parsing and before DOMContentLoaded
  561. # [16:19] <hallvors> (and I would expect the "synchronous parts" of the resource selection to run when the implementation reaches the *first* stable state)
  562. # [16:20] <hallvors> - so why doesn't that seem to happen in the Webkit - based browsers?
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  565. # [16:26] <jgraham> You get a stable state after each event on the event loop afaict
  566. # [16:29] <annevk> hallvors: you get "stable state" before </script> too, and during each task in the event loop it seems
  567. # [16:30] <annevk> hallvors: and a number of other places, load the full page spec and click "provide a stable state" to find the various places
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  569. # [16:31] <hallvors> right - makes those other browsers' behaviour seem even weirder.. :-/
  570. # [16:31] <jgraham> Oh, so sending a HTTPS request to a non-https server doesn't work so well
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  572. # [16:32] <annevk> jgraham: Firefox blocks "intranet" stuff with CORS as well
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  574. # [16:33] <jgraham> annevk: So localhost doesn't work?
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  579. # [16:35] <annevk> jgraham: might not I suppose, sicking gave some details once long ago
  580. # [16:35] <jgraham> OK
  581. # [16:35] <jgraham> Well it would be consistent with my observations I guess
  582. # [16:36] <jgraham> On the other hand, so would "there is a vindictive God who is out to ruin my day"
  583. # [16:36] <jgraham> So I don't think that my observations in isolation can prove much
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  585. # [16:38] * Ms2ger denies being that vindictive God
  586. # [16:39] <annevk> jgraham: if there's nothing logged in console that might be worth complaining about
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  622. # [17:38] <Domenic_> annevk: http://w3cmemes.tumblr.com/post/49409867666/and-if-you-dont-have-an-api-you-might-as-well-set
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  624. # [17:43] <annevk> Domenic_: given the super long reply I think this argument is over
  625. # [17:44] <Domenic_> annevk: as in, he's made up his mind and not going to change it?
  626. # [17:44] <annevk> Domenic_: combined with the fact that he's not gonna decide what lands in browsers, yes
  627. # [17:45] <Domenic_> he seems open to adding both
  628. # [17:45] <Domenic_> maybe get both in and then later, feedback comes in that the events are redundant and error-prone.
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  630. # [17:46] <annevk> I'd rather not waste precious engineering and specification writing time on an exercise in futility
  631. # [17:46] <Domenic_> sounds good
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  645. # [18:15] <jgraham> annevk: Looks like you were right
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  690. # [19:37] <TabAtkins> zcorpan: If possible, send feedback to the respimg cg.
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  692. # [19:37] <TabAtkins> It is indeed a failure of bikeshed at the moment that it always says to send feedback to www-style.
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  695. # [19:39] <TabAtkins> MikeSmith: Hey, it's either separate attrs (numbered for uniqueness+ordering), separate elements (implementors hate them), or a big mashed together syntax with 5 levels of separator characters.
  696. # [19:40] <astearns> that last one sounds intriguing :)
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  713. # [20:15] <Hixie_> hallvors: re https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=881072#c44 - which test case are we talking about?
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  718. # [20:20] <Ms2ger> Hixie_, https://bug881072.bugzilla.mozilla.org/attachment.cgi?id=803768 ?
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  722. # [20:30] <Hixie_> oh duh
  723. # [20:30] <Hixie_> my brain totally ignored the grayed out stuff
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  732. # [20:43] <Ms2ger> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-test-infra/2013JulSep/0272.html
  733. # [20:43] <Ms2ger> Wut
  734. # [20:44] <miketaylr> E N E R G I Z E
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  743. # [21:01] <annevk> Hixie_: thanks for adding a comment there
  744. # [21:01] <Hixie_> np
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  757. # [21:25] <hallvors> Hixie_: +1 thanks - now, I guess the harder part is to get WebKit devs to fix the bug and break vine.co and video.js like Mozilla does :-p
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  767. # [21:44] <TabAtkins> annevk, Domenic_: What's the super-long argument about?
  768. # [21:44] <annevk> TabAtkins: public-webapps thread on whether or not to use promises for something
  769. # [21:44] <annevk> TabAtkins: it wasn't super long
  770. # [21:45] <Domenic_> thread wasn't, but the message saying "no events are better" was pretty long.
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  773. # [21:50] <dglazkov> fwiw, there aren't any events in Web Components specs defined so far.
  774. # [21:50] <dglazkov> I should respond to this thread, I guess
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  782. # [22:08] <annevk> Domenic_: if something is enumerable and visible to for-in, does that mean you can also test for it using "in"?
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  784. # [22:08] <Domenic_> annevk: "in" always works, enumerable doesn't matter for that
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  787. # [22:09] <annevk> Domenic_: aight
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  790. # [22:11] <annevk> It seems symbols are better for e.g. HTMLCollection:
  791. # [22:11] <annevk> <div id=@iterator></div>
  792. # [22:11] <annevk> <script>alert(document.getElementsByTagName("div")["@iterator"])</script>
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  794. # [22:12] <Domenic_> good one, use that
  795. # [22:12] <Domenic_> except, functions
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  797. # [22:12] <Domenic_> counterexamples work better when you can manage to create a spurious @iterator function
  798. # [22:13] <annevk> how would that work better?
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  800. # [22:15] <Domenic_> because then it's a real hazard, concretely demonstrating that "@iterator" the string will screw things up
  801. # [22:15] <Domenic_> if it's not a function, he can just argue that the test for iterability (or any similar protocol) should be "@iterator" in obj && typeof obj["@iterator"] === "function"
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  803. # [22:17] <annevk> oh my point is that we want to make HTMLCollection iterable
  804. # [22:19] <Domenic_> ah right that makes sense, pages could break iterability with such an element.
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  809. # [22:38] <annevk> Hixie_: why is transferring not inlined with structured cloning?
  810. # [22:39] <Hixie_> it used to be separate
  811. # [22:39] <Hixie_> like, unrelated
  812. # [22:39] <annevk> Hixie_: structured cloning is abstracted at the top of the spec, but then postMessage() details transferring around it
  813. # [22:39] <annevk> Hixie_: k
  814. # [22:39] <Hixie_> i should probably clean it up but i have much bigger fish to fry right now
  815. # [22:40] <Hixie_> same reason i haven't deferred to fetch yet
  816. # [22:40] <annevk> Hixie_: I'm trying to get TC39 to take over structured cloning
  817. # [22:40] <annevk> Hixie_: so don't worry too much about it
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  819. # [22:44] * hober is looking forward to structured clone handling Map & Set
  820. # [22:45] <annevk> Hixie_: also don't worry too much about Fetch
  821. # [22:46] <Hixie_> k
  822. # [22:46] <annevk> Hixie_: I'm going to land it for XMLHttpRequest first as a guinea pig, and there's a couple of things I need to change for that
  823. # [22:46] <Hixie_> lgtm
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  835. # [23:30] <annevk> Hixie_: you can neuter a Blob via Blob.close(), but then it can still be cloned, is that useful?
  836. # [23:30] <Hixie_> you can't clone neutered things, by definiton
  837. # [23:30] <Hixie_> definition
  838. # [23:30] <Hixie_> no?
  839. # [23:32] <Hixie_> hm, i guess the check of whether a neutered thing can be cloned is done each time by the cloning steps for that thing
  840. # [23:33] <Hixie_> maybe the blob cloning steps are missing that?
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  842. # [23:35] <annevk> yeah, prolly because a Blob is not neutered as side-effect of being transfered, it's a distinct operation
  843. # [23:35] <annevk> (Blob always clone and don't transfer, as they're readonly)
  844. # [23:35] <Hixie_> oh then the neutering is something else entirely
  845. # [23:36] <Hixie_> i thought you meant "neuter" in the trasfer sense
  846. # [23:37] <Hixie_> createImageBitmap() throws InvalidStateError if a Blob "has been neutered through the close method"
  847. # [23:37] <Hixie_> i would be happy to add the same clause to the structured clone stuff
  848. # [23:37] <Hixie_> if you think we should
  849. # [23:37] <Hixie_> file a bug
  850. # [23:37] <annevk> File API uses the same definition of neutering so I guess
  851. # [23:39] <annevk> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23385
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  853. # [23:40] <Hixie_> same definition as what?
  854. # [23:40] <Hixie_> i don't understand the second part of that bug
  855. # [23:41] <annevk> I.e. as step 2 of the internal structured cloning algorithm have "if input is neutered, throw ..."
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  857. # [23:45] <Hixie_> annevk: you can't get that far if an input is neutered in the transfer sense.
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  859. # [23:46] <Hixie_> annevk: and blob shouldn't be using the transfer sense if it's no transferable.
  860. # [23:46] <annevk> Hixie_: why does ArrayBuffer do the check there?
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  862. # [23:47] <Hixie_> interesting question
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  864. # [23:47] <Hixie_> that entire entry shouldn't be there
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  866. # [23:48] <Hixie_> it'll never get invoked
  867. # [23:48] <annevk> Hixie_: I think it's because it's recursive
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  869. # [23:48] <annevk> Hixie_: and ArrayBuffer can be cloned as well as transfered
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  871. # [23:48] <Hixie_> oh, oh, right.
  872. # [23:48] <Hixie_> that's why.
  873. # [23:48] <Hixie_> it's because you can clone as well as transfer.
  874. # [23:49] <Hixie_> anyway. you can't transfer a blob. so it shouldn't use the transfer notion of 'neuter'.
  875. # [23:49] <Hixie_> it can have its own notion of neutering
  876. # [23:49] <annevk> and although Blob cannot be in the transferMap, it can be neutered so just checking for neutering there makes sense
  877. # [23:49] <annevk> mah
  878. # [23:49] <Hixie_> but it's unrelated to transfering.
  879. # [23:49] <annevk> I suppose
  880. # [23:50] <Hixie_> just like if it had a computed value, it wouldn't be the CSS sense of "computed value"
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  899. # Session Close: Sat Sep 28 00:00:00 2013

The end :)