/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2013-10-01 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue Oct 01 00:00:00 2013
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  10. # [00:05] <zewt> ... yes
  11. # [00:05] <zewt> (sorry, work)
  12. # [00:06] <TabAtkins> Oh. In that case, I don't understand, because resolution discrimination is a good thing. ^_^
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  14. # [00:06] <zewt> oh. sorry, I read it as "bandwidth discrimination" (work or irc: pick one)
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  16. # [00:07] <zewt> okay, that does make more sense :P
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  70. # [01:31] <Hixie_> anyone got IE? need to test http://www.hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/dom/level0/window/showModalDialog/005.html
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  104. # [02:19] <rniwa> Hixie_: I have IE10
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  106. # [02:21] <rniwa> Hixie_: it errors saying "unable to get property 'document' of undefined or null reference" at line 4
  107. # [02:21] <rniwa> Hixie_: the test ends with "FAIL: DOM did not change"
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  119. # [02:44] <rafaelw> Hixie: can you remind me what this was about: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=22482
  120. # [02:44] <rafaelw> Hixie_: ^
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  143. # [03:32] <annevk> thanks TabAtkins, will take a look in the morning
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  171. # [04:40] <GPHemsley> Can we just rename CSS to TabAtkins and get it over with?
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  200. # [06:12] <MikeSmith> Hixie_: cabanier: did you guys have a chance to chat about DrawCustomFocusRing?
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  203. # [06:18] <cabanier> MikeSmith: yes
  204. # [06:18] <cabanier> MikeSmith: on irc and the mailing list
  205. # [06:18] <MikeSmith> cabanier: ah good
  206. # [06:18] <cabanier> MikeSmith: I think the APIs can stand
  207. # [06:19] <MikeSmith> I'm catching up on e-mail now
  208. # [06:19] <MikeSmith> cabanier: why?
  209. # [06:19] <cabanier> MikeSmith: but Dominic is still on the fence
  210. # [06:19] <MikeSmith> can you summarize?
  211. # [06:19] <cabanier> MikeSmith: it's the same as in the emails.
  212. # [06:20] <MikeSmith> I'll read then
  213. # [06:20] <cabanier> MikeSmith: he wanted something new but drawCustomFocusRing actually already does it
  214. # [06:20] <MikeSmith> OK
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  216. # [06:22] <MikeSmith> you do realize that Dominic's implementation can't be considered conformant if it doesn't ship?
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  224. # [06:37] <cabanier1> MikeSmith: experimental implementations count
  225. # [06:37] <cabanier1> MikeSmith: I can also ping Apple or the webkit community to land it
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  228. # [06:49] <Hixie_> rniwa: wacked. thanks.
  229. # [06:51] <Hixie_> rafaelw: nested <button>s, probably? i dunno. i'm sure it's fixed on the whatwg side. ;-)
  230. # [06:51] <Hixie_> bbiab
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  295. # [10:12] <zcorpan> heycam|away: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Oct/0003.html
  296. # [10:12] <MikeSmith> I like Roy's template proposal for the responsive images stuff
  297. # [10:13] <MikeSmith> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2013Sep/0302.html
  298. # [10:14] <MikeSmith> if the goals are to make the syntax more readable and to use attributes instead of elements
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  305. # [10:34] <zcorpan> Hixie_: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23002 (bumping this, seems like high priority)
  306. # [10:34] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: iirc a template was the first design of srcset but there was some problem with it
  307. # [10:35] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: ok
  308. # [10:35] <zcorpan> i don't recall exactly what the problem was
  309. # [10:35] <MikeSmith> well clearly there are problems with all of these proposals
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  311. # [10:38] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: so btw is a window object not a representation of a browsing context?
  312. # [10:39] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: no
  313. # [10:39] <MikeSmith> oh
  314. # [10:39] <MikeSmith> so what is?
  315. # [10:39] <zcorpan> there's no JS-exposed object
  316. # [10:39] <MikeSmith> ah
  317. # [10:42] <zcorpan> window is the closest thing, but it's complicated. :-) see http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/browsers.html#windows
  318. # [10:42] <MikeSmith> so a window just "contains" a browsing context
  319. # [10:42] <MikeSmith> yeah, reading that now
  320. # [10:43] <zcorpan> so iirc the WindowProxy is always the same for a given browing context, but the underlying Window can be swapped out in navigation
  321. # [10:43] <zcorpan> but i might be making that up
  322. # [10:44] <MikeSmith> yeah from reading the spec just now it seems like that's what would be the case
  323. # [10:44] <MikeSmith> that it's one-to-one with its WindowProxy
  324. # [10:44] <zcorpan> yep
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  326. # [10:46] <zcorpan> anyway, a window doesn't have an origin either
  327. # [10:46] <zcorpan> document does
  328. # [10:47] <zcorpan> so if you want "origin of a given browsing context", you'd probably say "origin of a given browsing context's active document"
  329. # [10:48] <MikeSmith> is that the origin that window.location provides?
  330. # [10:49] <zcorpan> no, i think location.origin gives the origin of the location.href URL
  331. # [10:50] <MikeSmith> ok
  332. # [10:53] * [[zzz]] is now known as [[zz]]
  333. # [10:54] <zcorpan> but maybe it should give the document's origin instead
  334. # [10:54] * zcorpan files a bug
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  337. # [11:04] <zcorpan> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23406
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  339. # [11:10] <MikeSmith> I would Cc myself on that one..
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  342. # [11:30] * zcorpan finds http://cssdeck.com/ which uses cont.style.setProperty('display', 'block', '!important'); - the bang should be omitted
  343. # [11:34] <jgraham> MikeSmith: I think "you have to generate 128 images" is not going to fly with authors, even if photoshop does it automatically
  344. # [11:34] <MikeSmith> jgraham: yeah, agreed about that
  345. # [11:34] <MikeSmith> for sure
  346. # [11:35] <MikeSmith> and maybe that was the same problem with the template idea that came up back when it was first proposed
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  364. # [12:41] <gsnedders> hsivonen: I sent you an email. A response would be nice this week. :)
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  369. # [13:05] <hsivonen> gsnedders: ack
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  443. # [15:51] <zcorpan> i don't know where to start with filling in the blanks in this section... http://dev.w3.org/csswg/cssom-view/#the-geometryutils-interface
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  445. # [15:56] <Ms2ger`> zcorpan, leave it to the GeometryOM spec :)
  446. # [15:57] <zcorpan> Ms2ger`: that doesn't help because (a) that section isn't moving there and (b) i'll be editing that too
  447. # [16:01] <zcorpan> but i guess i can procrastinate by shuffling things between specs, switching to bikeshed, work on critic backlog, play flash games, eat beer sausages, etc
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  450. # [16:02] <jgraham> "beer sasuages"
  451. # [16:02] <jgraham> That's a German thing, right?
  452. # [16:03] <zcorpan> yeah i think so
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  454. # [16:03] <zcorpan> bought 10 of those at a market the other day
  455. # [16:04] <MikeSmith> I vote for critic backlog
  456. # [16:04] <MikeSmith> jgraham: btw please add a priority flag in critic
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  458. # [16:06] <jgraham> MikeSmith: For what purpose?
  459. # [16:06] <odinho> what's your use case?
  460. # [16:06] <MikeSmith> for me to up-prioritize all things I submit for review
  461. # [16:07] <MikeSmith> jump the queue
  462. # [16:07] <jgraham> (the intention is that you don't have a 6 month+ review backlog, so we are clearly already doing it wrong. But if you need something urgently looked at, out of band communication/guilt tripping seems more likely to be effective)
  463. # [16:07] <jgraham> Sigh
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  468. # [16:07] <MikeSmith> bubble up
  469. # [16:08] <jgraham> I have now got all my changes to wpt serve so intermingled that it will be more effort than I am willing to spend to reconstruct a reasonable history
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  473. # [16:09] * jgraham gives up
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  477. # [16:10] <MikeSmith> jgraham: you mean the commits you already made?
  478. # [16:11] <MikeSmith> or otherwise, you can't do the git add -p thing?
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  481. # [16:13] <jgraham> MikeSmith: Yeah, add -p sort of works, except I have "conflicts" i.e. multiple logically seperate changes touching the same line of code
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  489. # [16:15] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: any reason to not use html5lib test format for the NCR tests?
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  508. # [16:16] <wilhelm_> Boom?
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  521. # [16:18] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: there's a button to ping a review, but in my case i'm as unlikely to read the ping email as the original new review email
  522. # [16:18] <jgraham> Is it some Google policy to use irccloud?
  523. # [16:18] <jgraham> That took out most of their employees
  524. # [16:18] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: "[cc]" is useful for me to find your reviews, though
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  526. # [16:23] <SimonSapin> jgraham: maybe because chromebooks can not use local IRC clients?
  527. # [16:23] <odinho> Yea. But there's an irc extension tho, isn't there?
  528. # [16:24] <SimonSapin> dunno
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  530. # [16:24] <jgraham> Surely they aren't all actually using ChromePooks
  531. # [16:24] <jgraham> *ChromeBooks
  532. # [16:25] <SimonSapin> not all, but enough to seem most of your biased sample? :)
  533. # [16:26] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: the NCR tests are meant to be used directly with the validator
  534. # [16:27] <zcorpan> https://critic.hoppipolla.co.uk/r/339 vs https://critic.hoppipolla.co.uk/r/340 confuses me a bit
  535. # [16:28] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: last time I looked at the html5lib tests, it seemed like there was some pre-processing step I needed to run to get actual HTML from them. Or that that HTML is just generated in memory or whatever and fed to the test runner
  536. # [16:29] <MikeSmith> I'm happy to use the html5lib format if it can be used directly with the validator
  537. # [16:30] <MikeSmith> like, as a static file that I can put a URL to point the validator to
  538. # [16:31] <MikeSmith> (though what the validator test runner actually does is to read the files locally)
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  540. # [16:32] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: yeah, i guess you would need to generate HTML from them. are the existing html5lib tests not interesting for the validator to make it worthwhile to write that script and fix the #errors data?
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  542. # [16:33] <jgraham> zcorpan: I think the PR you just merged is wrong
  543. # [16:33] <jgraham> It isn't *more* wrong than the existing code, so no real harm done
  544. # [16:33] <jgraham> But still
  545. # [16:34] * zcorpan goes to play flash games
  546. # [16:34] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: no, I think they are actually intereesting for the validator. I was just being lazy in not wanting to bother to figure out how to generate static HTML from them
  547. # [16:34] <jgraham> /resources/WebIDLParser.js doesn't exist. Except in some places like w3c-test.org
  548. # [16:34] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: ok. fair enough, and i guess that doesn't need to block the PR
  549. # [16:34] <zcorpan> jgraham: so what's correct?
  550. # [16:35] <jgraham> zcorpan: Good question
  551. # [16:35] <jgraham> /resources/webidl2/lib/webidl2.js really exists
  552. # [16:35] <jgraham> And is the new code
  553. # [16:36] <jgraham> But a) the URL is horrible and b) it's not really clear to me if the tests need to be updated
  554. # [16:36] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: yeah I guess I could land those in the PR for now and deal with porting the html5lib ones later
  555. # [16:37] <zcorpan> jgraham: can you file a bug on web-platform-tests or something about this so it's less likely we forget about this?
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  558. # [16:39] <jgraham> zcorpan: There is https://critic.hoppipolla.co.uk/7289dbaa?review=340 as well
  559. # [16:39] <jgraham> Uh, the review not that commit in particular
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  562. # [16:39] <jgraham> Basically we should just decide if that URL is OK
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  565. # [16:40] <jgraham> Or if we want to introduce some kind of static URL map to wptserve
  566. # [16:40] <jgraham> (which would block fixing this issue on me, although w3c-test.org could use a symlink in the meantime)
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  603. # [17:20] <MikeSmith> I can make w3c-test.org symlinks as easily as making silver-dollar pancakes
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  608. # [17:26] * jgraham wonders how easily that is
  609. # [17:26] <jgraham> Anyway w3c-test.org-specific solutions are not OK
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  689. # [19:32] <annevk> Hixie_: https://github.com/dslomov-chromium/ecmascript-structured-clone
  690. # [19:32] <annevk> zcorpan: ^^
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  700. # [19:52] <smaug____> why is there PortCollection object?
  701. # [19:52] <smaug____> what exposes gc behavior to scripts
  702. # [19:52] <Hixie_> actually it's carefully designed not to expose gc behaviour
  703. # [19:52] <Hixie_> that's the whole point :-)
  704. # [19:52] <jgraham> Hixie_: Pretty sure you could argue that crashing might be allowed under the hardware limitations clause :) e.g. if the OS automatically kills processes that use too much memory
  705. # [19:52] <Hixie_> heh
  706. # [19:52] <Hixie_> i guess
  707. # [19:52] <smaug____> Hixie_: it does
  708. # [19:52] <Hixie_> jgraham: that's not the case bz is talking about, though, i'd guess :-)
  709. # [19:52] <Hixie_> smaug____: how?
  710. # [19:52] <Hixie_> smaug____: if it does, that's a bug
  711. # [19:52] * Krinkle|detached is now known as Krinkle
  712. # [19:53] <smaug____> Hixie_: you run it using a timer occasionally to detect when certain port has been collected
  713. # [19:54] <jgraham> Hixie_: It's hard to know what the actual use case is since no one has said yet
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  716. # [19:55] <smaug____> s/run/iterate/
  717. # [19:55] <Hixie_> smaug____: the port won't be collected so long as the other port exists
  718. # [19:55] <smaug____> what other port
  719. # [19:56] <Hixie_> smaug____: a message port is entangled with another message port. so long as the other isn't GC'ed, the former won't be ethir.
  720. # [19:56] <Hixie_> either.
  721. # [19:56] <Hixie_> message ports keep each other alive.
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  724. # [19:56] <smaug____> that doesn't matter
  725. # [19:57] <Hixie_> smaug____: hm, i guess you're right. you could send a message out and just wait for the message to no longer come out.
  726. # [19:57] <Hixie_> *shrug*
  727. # [19:57] <smaug____> var p = PortCollection(); var c = new MessageChannel(); p.add(c.port0); p.add(c.port);
  728. # [19:57] <smaug____> er, port1
  729. # [19:58] <smaug____> then iterate the ports in p
  730. # [19:58] <smaug____> using a timer
  731. # [19:58] <smaug____> at some point the ports disappear
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  733. # [19:58] <Hixie_> sure
  734. # [19:59] <Hixie_> i'm happy to consider other ways to address this use case if you can think of one
  735. # [19:59] <Hixie_> this doesn't let you detect the exact moment GC happens, but it's true that it does let you tell a range between which GC happened.
  736. # [19:59] <smaug____> well, remove PortCollection
  737. # [20:00] <Hixie_> that doesn't exactly handle the use case well
  738. # [20:00] <jgraham> I thought the problem with GC was not "I can tell the exact moment", but more "pages might rely on the specifies of GC in one implemetation"
  739. # [20:00] <smaug____> exactly
  740. # [20:00] <Hixie_> specifics = exact, no?
  741. # [20:00] <Hixie_> again, i'm happy to consider alternatives.
  742. # [20:00] <jgraham> Not really
  743. # [20:01] <jgraham> It only has to be exact enough that the difference is observed some noticable fraction of the time
  744. # [20:01] * smaug____ doesn't understand the use cases for PortCollection
  745. # [20:01] * dfreedm_ is now known as dfreedm
  746. # [20:02] <Hixie_> smaug____: you want to broadcast a message to many ports, but you don't want to prevent them from being GC'ed. For example, you're a shared worker and you want to keep all your clients up to date with what the server is telling you.
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  748. # [20:03] <jgraham> It feels like there are two mutually exclusive goals there
  749. # [20:03] <Hixie_> yes, hence the current design being a compromise between them
  750. # [20:03] <jgraham> (hopefully not though, but I don't have a good idea)
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  753. # [20:05] <jgraham> Anyway, I have to go, but the ability to improve GC behaviour transparently has been a big win in recent times. We should be super-careful about giving up that freedom
  754. # [20:05] <smaug____> shouldn't we have a PortCollection which doesn't expose iterate()
  755. # [20:05] <smaug____> basically PortCollection which just has postMessage or some such
  756. # [20:06] <Hixie_> smaug____: you can still detect the time range of GC that way
  757. # [20:06] <Hixie_> smaug____: just see if you receive the message
  758. # [20:07] <smaug____> indeed
  759. # [20:07] <annevk> Can people take a look at the HTML imports stuff please? And in particular https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=21976
  760. # [20:08] <annevk> It seems like some of the Chrome guys are proposing some kind of hackish design.
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  765. # [20:20] <zcorpan> what should i do about the identical members of these interfaces? http://dev.w3.org/csswg/cssom-view/#the-domrect-and-domrectreadonly-interfaces - move to a new interface like DOMRectBase and let them inherit from that? or [NoInterfaceObject] + implements?
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  768. # [20:21] <annevk> the latter is what DOM uses
  769. # [20:22] <zcorpan> why?
  770. # [20:22] <annevk> seems close to what JavaScript does
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  772. # [20:30] <zcorpan> like toString()?
  773. # [20:31] <annevk> zcorpan: having generic methods that operate on multiple objects
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  775. # [20:31] <annevk> zcorpan: e.g. the way some ArrayBuffer stuff is copied from Array
  776. # [20:34] <zcorpan> any opinion on what to call the interface to hold the top/right/bottom/left members?
  777. # [20:35] <annevk> zcorpan: it's nointerface so... AbstractRect ?
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  779. # [20:36] <annevk> zcorpan: having a distinct term for origin might be nice
  780. # [20:36] <annevk> zcorpan: nothing comes to mind :/
  781. # [20:37] <zcorpan> origin coordinates?
  782. # [20:37] <zcorpan> that seems not quite right
  783. # [20:38] <annevk> grounding? hmm
  784. # [20:38] <annevk> SVG uses origin for this too?
  785. # [20:39] <annevk> it does
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  792. # [21:00] <zcorpan> [NoInterfaceObject] + implements is equivalent to repeating the members in both interfaces, at least in the JS binding, right?
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  794. # [21:04] <Ms2ger`> Yes
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  839. # [21:29] <zcorpan> there, now i've said on www-style that i don't know what i'm doing, i guess i can call it a day
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  844. # [21:36] <miketaylr> zcorpan: careful, they might make you chair
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  864. # [22:07] <rektide> CSSStyleDeclaration.hasProperty what in the haystack why are you NOT a thing
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  867. # [22:08] <rektide> ok i guess the value i'm expecting it to return i'm expecting to be some kind of class list thing
  868. # [22:11] <rektide> wow the matrix transform between .transition and .transition-property is a living hell
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  870. # [22:12] <rektide> got help anyone brave enough to meddle with individual tokens in the transition-{property,delay,duration} rowization, brave crazy soul
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  874. # [22:19] <Domenic_> zcorpan: annevk: I tried to implement roc's suggestion in JS and it was not great: https://gist.github.com/domenic/6736258 I guess you could insert more branding checks in the setters.
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  882. # [22:30] <annevk> Domenic_: doesn't look too bad?
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  885. # [22:36] <Domenic_> annevk: yeah, except for the branding checks I guess. I suppose I should add those so it's clearer.
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  888. # [22:40] <Domenic_> annevk: https://gist.github.com/domenic/6736258
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  892. # [22:42] <annevk> zcorpan: could you check "!/" as sub-path separator?
  893. # [22:42] <annevk> wycats: ^^ zcorpan did checking
  894. # [22:44] <annevk> Domenic_: can't you define an anonymous function in DOMRectMutable2 that does a lot of the boilerplate?
  895. # [22:44] <Domenic_> annevk: what do you mean?
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  898. # [22:47] <annevk> something you pass prop and value and that does function blah (prop, value) { assertBranded(this); privates.get(this)[prop] = +value }
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  904. # [22:55] <Domenic_> sure, although i'd also make it pass `this` so that you avoid having an observable member function
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  906. # [22:59] <Hixie_> bholley: you around to resume our talk about https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20701 ?
  907. # [23:00] <bholley> Hixie_: do you mind waiting a week? We've got a mozilla summit in brussels starting on thursday and I need to finish prepping my talk
  908. # [23:00] <Hixie_> sure, i'm in no rush
  909. # [23:00] <bholley> Hixie_: cool. I'll ping you next week :-)
  910. # [23:00] <Hixie_> unfortunately i forgot where we got to in our last discussion :-(
  911. # [23:00] <Hixie_> (i was going to update the bug accordingly)
  912. # [23:01] <bholley> Hixie_: it's ok. I think it'll be helpful to review it all next week anyway
  913. # [23:01] <Hixie_> k
  914. # [23:01] <Hixie_> (see also mail i just sent you)
  915. # [23:01] <Hixie_> (also no rush)
  916. # [23:04] <Hixie_> i wish there was a way to archive bug comments, or close them or something, so you could view the bug with only the "latest thinking"
  917. # [23:04] <Hixie_> some of these bugs are out of hand
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  945. # Session Close: Wed Oct 02 00:00:00 2013

The end :)