/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2013-10-08 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue Oct 08 00:00:00 2013
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  35. # [00:32] <TabAtkins> What sort of verbage would be appropriate to refer to a trusted event which is appropriate for "activating"? Things like clicks and keyboard presses, but not mousemove events.
  36. # [00:33] <TabAtkins> Is there already a term for that?
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  39. # [00:35] <Hixie_> TabAtkins: 'click'? :-)
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  41. # [00:35] <Hixie_> TabAtkins: keyboard presses fire a click event before they trigger activation behaviours
  42. # [00:36] <zewt> keyboard events can trigger only-during-click stuff, even if there's no associated click, right?
  43. # [00:36] <zewt> (seems like they should, at least)
  44. # [00:36] <TabAtkins> Hm, maybe. Context is fullscreen and stuff - asking for Vincent. He's currently referring to something wk specific called "user gesture" which means "the subset of events that represent the user actually doing something".
  45. # [00:36] <TabAtkins> It might just be "click".
  46. # [00:37] <zewt> eg. you should be able to listen for key events to fullscreen if the user presses alt-enter, even if there's nothing to activate (or if you cancel the keypress event so you don't activate something unintentionally)
  47. # [00:38] <TabAtkins> zewt: Exactly.
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  49. # [00:38] <scheib> Thanks for asking TabAtkins, I'm back at desk.
  50. # [00:38] <rektide> q: is there a specification where i can ask a webserver for a non-minified version of a page, a human readable please version?
  51. # [00:39] <scheib> Yes, and for pointer lock. Other events could be voice actions, or taps on touch screens. So.... these are all 'click'?
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  53. # [00:41] <zewt> right: click is not what you want, and I'm not sure if there's any spec for this stuff
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  55. # [00:44] <rektide> for some reason i thought there was some incipent view-source movement that had proposed a hook asking for "human friendly" assets, but i haven't found any links to anything except the view-source:// uri, http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-yevstifeyev-view-source-uri-01#page-2
  56. # [00:44] <rektide> which will open up the unspeakable compiled horrors no human will be able to read
  57. # [00:45] <TabAtkins> rektide: To the best of my knowledge, no. You may be thinking of humans.txt, which is unrelated.
  58. # [00:45] <Hixie_> rektide: http, but you have to know the URL of the non-minified version :-)
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  60. # [00:45] <Hixie_> TabAtkins: sounds like you want something consistent with what is considered a gesture for the purposes of popup blocking
  61. # [00:45] <TabAtkins> Hixie_: Yes, exactly that.
  62. # [00:46] <rektide> righto, yeah. perhaps a misuse of Nottingham's alternative service might be permissible here
  63. # [00:46] <rektide> spdy-human
  64. # [00:46] <rektide> quick-human
  65. # [00:46] <barnabywalters> rektide: http://daneden.me/max-css/ comes to mind
  66. # [00:46] <rektide> quik-human even. alterantive transports, i need you
  67. # [00:46] <rektide> yes, your asset compiler is part of your transport
  68. # [00:47] <rektide> don't dare disagree with me, you mangling serializing toolchain
  69. # [00:47] <rektide> barnabywalters: yup, that's perfect.
  70. # [00:48] <rektide> i'm alas not well versed on source maps, what role they might play.
  71. # [00:51] <Hixie_> TabAtkins: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#allowed-to-show-a-popup may be helpful
  72. # [00:53] <TabAtkins> Hixie_: I'd have to chase definitions, so I'll just ask you instead - would that work to, say, allow fullscreening when the user presses alt+Enter?
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  75. # [01:03] <Hixie_> TabAtkins: probably not, i don't see key events in that list
  76. # [01:04] <Hixie_> TabAtkins: (maybe it's not exactly the same as popup blocking)
  77. # [01:04] <Hixie_> TabAtkins: but it may give you a starting point for a list of events
  78. # [01:04] <TabAtkins> Hixie_: Okay, I was wondering if those were subsumed under that "click" entry.
  79. # [01:04] <Hixie_> i don't think so
  80. # [01:04] <Hixie_> that only happens when you e.g. click space on a button
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  82. # [01:04] <TabAtkins> That's what I thought.
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  84. # [01:04] <TabAtkins> scheib: ^^^ You can just copy that list and add the additional events you need.
  85. # [01:05] <scheib> Hixie_ Tab is asking on my behalf. I'm particularly asking about pointer lock -- but it should match fullscreen. My reading of allowed-to-show-a-popup shows it to be mostly right. I can see adding to a white list of events. I do notice that http://fullscreen.spec.whatwg.org/ seems to only refer to allow a popup.
  86. # [01:05] <scheib> Thanks, for looking, by the way.
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  88. # [01:07] <scheib> A whitelist is unfortunate, it precludes future unknown but equivalently intended events. I'll try to capture that somehow.
  89. # [01:11] <zewt> doesn't prevent it, you just add to the list
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  163. # [03:06] <Hixie_> scheib: adding to the list later is cheap, in this brave new world of living standards
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  196. # [04:59] <Hixie_> http://www.nngroup.com/articles/stagnating-expertise/
  197. # [04:59] <Hixie_> (i assume this applies to programming languages too, in which case, it's an argument against us adding features)
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  213. # [06:17] <pdr> Hixie_, TabAtkins, I'd like to double-check my understanding of srcset wrt pixel densities. If I have a 100x100 png, what is the width and height of <img srcset="100x100.png 2x">? My reading is it would be 100x100 in css pixels, but it's being implemented in Blink differently.
  214. # [06:17] <TabAtkins> 50x50. (I forgot to specify that in my spec, but it's specified thusly in whatwg.)
  215. # [06:20] <pdr> TabAtkins, got it. Would the intrinsic size be (100 x 100) and the natural size (50 x 50)?
  216. # [06:20] <TabAtkins> dunno what the difference is, but the intrinsic size (per CSS) would be 50x50
  217. # [06:22] <pdr> TabAtkins, http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-images/#intrinsic-dimensions says intrinsic dimensions are not a factor of the context the image is used in
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  219. # [06:22] <TabAtkins> Correct. But this isn't quite the same thing.
  220. # [06:27] <pdr> Can you expand a bit? I'm trying to nail down how srcset interacts with svg and the intrinsic size wording is tricky
  221. # [06:27] <TabAtkins> The intrinsic size is just the input for the CSS algorithms. srcset/srcN happen at a level before that, and set the intrinsic size.
  222. # [06:28] <TabAtkins> This should be pretty natural if you don't run yourself in circles - an image with 100 pixels, at 2x density, naturally covers 50 CSS pixels. That's its intrinsic size, given that density.
  223. # [06:31] <pdr> TabAtkins, what happens if this image is drawn into a canvas with drawImage(...), without specifying a width and height? Would it be drawn with size 50x50 or 100x100?
  224. # [06:32] <pdr> It sounds like 50x50, just want to verify
  225. # [06:34] <TabAtkins> yes
  226. # [06:34] <pdr> thanks for the clarification, off to make this real :)
  227. # [06:34] <TabAtkins> Dude, it's 9:30. Stop coding. ^_^
  228. # [06:35] <pdr> but.. cats.. the people demand images of cats
  229. # [06:36] <TabAtkins> Oh, I suppose your'e right.
  230. # [06:39] <cabanier1> pdr: does canvas know about any of this?
  231. # [06:42] <cabanier1> pdr: it seems that the canvasImageSource should always use the default
  232. # [06:43] <pdr> cabanier1, yeah the spec is pretty clear about using the intrinsic size
  233. # [06:43] <pdr> for drawImage
  234. # [06:45] <cabanier1> pdr: since the image doesn't need to be in the dom, you can't do the selection except maybe by pixel density
  235. # [06:45] <cabanier1> pdr: but that would be weird if it happens
  236. # [06:46] <pdr> cabanier1, do we even load the image if it isn't in the dom? /me checks
  237. # [06:47] <TabAtkins> For <img>s, we do (I think).
  238. # [06:47] <pdr> yeah, we do
  239. # [06:47] <cabanier1> http://www.html5canvastutorials.com/tutorials/html5-canvas-images/
  240. # [06:48] <cabanier1> that's not html image though
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  243. # [06:49] <pdr> I guess you're right, we should only use the resolution for selection in that case. srcset already has to deal with dynamic srcset changes so it's not too difficult. I guess image.onload would fire twice?
  244. # [06:50] <cabanier1> pdr: but that would be weird
  245. # [06:50] <cabanier1> pdr: If you zoom in (not pinch zoom), the image might switch to having more pixels
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  248. # [06:54] <pdr> cabanier1, actually, the width comes from the viewport. I think that's known w/o putting the image in the document
  249. # [06:55] <pdr> cabanier1, does the viewport change during pinch zoom? I don't think so (or, not the one srcset uses)
  250. # [06:56] <cabanier1> pdr: but dpr changes
  251. # [06:56] <cabanier1> pdr: no, not pinch zoom.
  252. # [06:56] <cabanier1> pdr: regular zoom (command + )
  253. # [06:58] <pdr> Does browser zoom change the viewport? I don't think it does
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  255. # [07:01] <TabAtkins> Ctrl-+ style zoom does indeed change the viewport.
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  257. # [07:05] <pdr> Hopefully nobody promises onload
  258. # [07:05] <cabanier> :-)
  259. # [07:05] <cabanier> does that mean "hopefully nobody turns onload into a promise?"
  260. # [07:06] <pdr> nm, I think promises can return twice
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  263. # [07:07] <TabAtkins> wait, what?
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  265. # [07:14] <pdr> I misread http://www.html5rocks.com/en/tutorials/async/deferred. I don't know how promises and onload would work
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  267. # [07:17] <cabanier> what would be the problem?
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  274. # [07:31] <MikeSmith> I'm looking for a word to describe benefits of Web Components
  275. # [07:31] <MikeSmith> what't the opposite of "bolt on"?
  276. # [07:32] <MikeSmith> in the sense that Web Components give you a way to create custom UI controls that aren't just bolted on
  277. # [07:32] <MikeSmith> but instead are.. whatever the opposite of bolted on is
  278. # [07:33] <MikeSmith> "baked in"?
  279. # [07:38] <Hixie_> intergrated
  280. # [07:38] <Hixie_> but i don't know if i'd agree that web components aren't bolt-on :-)
  281. # [07:38] <Hixie_> i thought that was the whole point, a way to give you bolt-on components :-)
  282. # [07:40] <MikeSmith> Hixie_: except that "bolt on" often has a pejorative connotations
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  285. # [07:42] <MikeSmith> and you can already do "bolt on" components today without needing Web Components
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  287. # [07:43] <MikeSmith> so it seems not unreasonable to say that compared to the current mechanisms we have, Web Components gives you a way to bake in components rather than just bolting them on
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  289. # [07:44] <MikeSmith> (I'm trying to figure out how to word it for a reporter with a short attention span.)
  290. # [07:45] <Hixie_> well, they are bolt-on. i mean, as opposed to the built-in/baked-in ones like <select>.
  291. # [07:46] <Hixie_> the advantage of web components is more that they are self-contained
  292. # [07:46] <Hixie_> modular
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  294. # [07:49] <TabAtkins> pdr: the page's onload event fires once. It's appropriate for promises - you just have one promise for the page load, which fulfills when the page loads.
  295. # [07:50] <TabAtkins> pdr: Images can load multiple times, which suggests a different strategy - instead, return a new promise each time, which is either already fulfilled (if the image is currently loaded) or will be fulfilled when the image finishes loading (if it's currently loading something, or hasn't yet started loading).
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  297. # [07:51] <TabAtkins> pdr: Both of these approaches are exemplified in the FontFace and FontFaceSet ready() promises: <http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-font-load-events/>
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  344. # [09:19] <MikeSmith> I wonder how it is that Web Notifications work as expected in shipping versions of Chrome even though they don't support Notification.permission
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  346. # [09:21] <MikeSmith> as far as I understand it, the spec requires that calling Notification.requestPermission causes the value of Notification.permission to be checked, to see whether the user has already granted or denied notifications permission for the current origin
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  348. # [09:22] <MikeSmith> but shipping versions of Chrome behave as expected even though they don't actually support Notification.permission
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  351. # [09:23] <MikeSmith> so I assume Chrome must be storing the permissions state in some other way
  352. # [09:23] <MikeSmith> some way that's not exposed to Web content, expcept indirectly through the behavior of Notification.requestPermission
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  402. # [11:19] <zcorpan> JS doesn't have a WeakArray thing yet, right?
  403. # [11:20] <zcorpan> maybe that wouldn't make sense
  404. # [11:28] <zcorpan> doesn't WeakMap expose GC if you hold the keys in an array and check the values in an interval?
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  407. # [11:33] <jgraham> It seems that way to me as well
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  410. # [11:34] <rtc> how can I subscribe to whatwg mailing list?
  411. # [11:34] <foolip> rtc, http://lists.whatwg.org/listinfo.cgi/whatwg-whatwg.org
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  413. # [11:36] <Ms2ger> zcorpan, wasn't WeakMap weak in the keys?
  414. # [11:37] <zcorpan> Ms2ger: yes, but you can't enumerate the keys so if you want to check all the values you've set you need to maintain the keys out of band, afaict
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  416. # [11:38] <annevk> zcorpan: if you hold the keys in an array they won't be GC'd
  417. # [11:38] <Ms2ger> Right
  418. # [11:38] <zcorpan> but the values can be GC'ed
  419. # [11:39] <annevk> zcorpan: no
  420. # [11:39] <zcorpan> no? how does that make sense?
  421. # [11:39] <annevk> zcorpan: they have a strong whatever that was called to the key
  422. # [11:40] <zcorpan> var keys = [0]; var wm = new WeakMap(); wm.set[0, {}];
  423. # [11:40] <annevk> zcorpan: e.g. you could associate some information about nodes in a WeakMap and you don't have to worry about removing that extra data when the node is removed
  424. # [11:40] <Ms2ger> Keys need to be objects, no?
  425. # [11:41] <jgraham> If the key is a node, then the weakmap will change when GC occurs
  426. # [11:41] <jgraham> If that node was deleted
  427. # [11:42] <jgraham> So you can tell whether GC occurred
  428. # [11:42] <jgraham> What am I missing?
  429. # [11:42] <annevk> Ms2ger: correct http://people.mozilla.org/~jorendorff/es6-draft.html#sec-weakmap.prototype.set
  430. # [11:42] <Ms2ger> How can you tell if the weakmap changed?
  431. # [11:42] <annevk> jgraham: how would you tell?
  432. # [11:42] <annevk> jgraham: you no longer have the node, so you no longer can look up its value
  433. # [11:42] <zcorpan> oh, ok. i thought they key could be anything
  434. # [11:44] <Ms2ger> It's basically improved expandos
  435. # [11:45] <jgraham> If there isn't any way to tell how big the set is
  436. # [11:45] <jgraham> I guess that is probably OK
  437. # [11:45] <zcorpan> what i'm pondering is if WeakMap + some API that sends a message to all ports in a WeakMap would be a plausible replacement for PortCollection
  438. # [11:45] <jgraham> zcorpan: I think I suggested the smae thing a few days ago
  439. # [11:45] <jgraham> It does seem better
  440. # [11:46] <jgraham> (of course you could try a timing attack ;)
  441. # [11:46] <zcorpan> would you use the port as the key and a dummy value as value?
  442. # [11:46] * Ms2ger would need to think if that makes gc observable somehow
  443. # [11:46] <annevk> zcorpan: no that doesn't work
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  445. # [11:47] <jgraham> Surely it's a WeakSet
  446. # [11:47] <annevk> zcorpan: e.g. you create this portcollection, set up listeners for the ports, keep sending to the portcollection, you can observe via timing when the ports get collected as the messages are no longer delivered
  447. # [11:48] <jgraham> Yeah, I think messaging + weak refs fundamentally make GC observable
  448. # [11:49] <annevk> smaug____ and I went through this exercise last weekend
  449. # [11:52] <zcorpan> jgraham: i didn't know WeakSet was a thing :-)
  450. # [11:53] <Ms2ger> Doesn't seem to be implemented in SM
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  452. # [11:55] <zcorpan> i thought the use case was for sending messages, not for listening
  453. # [11:56] <zcorpan> you can't tell if a message was sent or not, unless that's communicated back in some way
  454. # [11:58] <annevk> zcorpan: you can do the whole setup in one global
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  457. # [11:59] <smaug____> zcorpan: var c = new MessageChannel(); portCollection.add(c.port1); port2.addEventListener("message", function() {alert("boo")}); Then start iterating portCollection send messages
  458. # [12:00] <smaug____> at some point port1 won't be there
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  461. # [12:01] <zcorpan> smaug____: yes, i know
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  463. # [12:03] <zcorpan> smaug____: i was talking about WeakSet + API to send a message to all ports in the WeakSet
  464. # [12:04] <smaug____> and since PortCollection exposes GC this way, it could be used to implement "close" event in hacky way
  465. # [12:04] <smaug____> ah
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  468. # [12:04] <zcorpan> but that can still expose GC, but requires the other end to cooperate, at least for the only-sending case
  469. # [12:05] <zcorpan> afaict
  470. # [12:05] * zcorpan -> lunch
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  483. # [12:50] <rtc> why when I place h1 h2 h3 tags one after another the h1 has smaller font size than h2?
  484. # [12:51] * Joins: jonathanmarvens (~jonathanm@c-50-157-151-94.hsd1.ma.comcast.net)
  485. # [12:53] <rtc> http://jsfiddle.net/HARj2/ this happens only when they are in section why?
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  490. # [13:03] <zcorpan> rtc: the default styling shrinks h1 in sections, but doesn't affect h2-h6 (except in hgroup, per spec anyway)
  491. # [13:03] <rtc> wwhy?
  492. # [13:03] <zcorpan> rtc: if you only use h1 you get the right styling
  493. # [13:03] <rtc> but why this happens?
  494. # [13:04] * Quits: Smylers (~smylers@81.143.60.194) (Remote host closed the connection)
  495. # [13:04] <rtc> no h1 alone is with same font size as if there are h2 h3
  496. # [13:04] <zcorpan> because it should be possible to only use h1 + sections and get smaller headings for subheadings
  497. # [13:04] <rtc> http://jsfiddle.net/HARj2/1/
  498. # [13:04] <rtc> http://jsfiddle.net/HARj2/
  499. # [13:04] <rtc> compare, they are same
  500. # [13:05] * Joins: Smylers (~smylers@81.143.60.194)
  501. # [13:05] <zcorpan> yes? that's the point. did you understand what i wrote?
  502. # [13:05] * Joins: jahman (~woops@129.175.204.73)
  503. # [13:06] <zcorpan> <h1>foo</h1> <section><h1>bar</h1></section> should have the same rendering as <h1>foo</h1> <h2>bar</h2>
  504. # [13:06] * Joins: cheron (~cheron@unaffiliated/cheron)
  505. # [13:07] <rtc> no
  506. # [13:07] <rtc> :S
  507. # [13:07] <rtc> but why
  508. # [13:07] <rtc> h1 has smaller font size than h2?
  509. # [13:08] <zcorpan> <h1>foo</h1> <section><h1>bar</h1></section> means the same thing as <h1>foo</h1> <h2>bar</h2>, and similarly a nested section makes h1 be a third-level heading
  510. # [13:08] <rtc> zcorpan,
  511. # [13:14] <rtc> zcorpan, I am confused man :S
  512. # [13:15] * Quits: baku (~baku@2-236-39-253.ip231.fastwebnet.it) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  513. # [13:16] <rtc> please explain thanks
  514. # [13:16] <zcorpan> rtc: ok. so let's back up. the purpose of headings is to give some structure to the document, which can be represented in a "table of contents"
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  516. # [13:16] <zcorpan> rtc: the table of contents will have nested sections so that e.g. "bar" is a child of "foo"
  517. # [13:17] <zcorpan> rtc: in html, this can be marked up in two ways: the old way with only <h1>foo</h1> <h2>bar</h2> and the new way with <h1>foo</h1> <section><h1>bar</h1></section>
  518. # [13:17] <zcorpan> does that help?
  519. # [13:18] <rtc> sec
  520. # [13:18] <rtc> sorry some server problems :D
  521. # [13:18] <rtc> let me read thanks man!
  522. # [13:19] <rtc> hmmmmmmm
  523. # [13:19] <rtc> yess
  524. # [13:19] <rtc> so basically in section I should not use h1 and h2 ?
  525. # [13:19] <rtc> together?
  526. # [13:19] <rtc> headings h1 h2 h3 are not intended for titles - headings in separate parts of a document?
  527. # [13:19] <rtc> and subsections?
  528. # [13:19] <rtc> only for table of contents?
  529. # [13:22] <zcorpan> if you want correct default styling, only use h1 together with sections
  530. # [13:22] <rtc> ok
  531. # [13:23] <rtc> so withing one seciton I should avoid h1 together with h2 h3 right? :)
  532. # [13:23] <zcorpan> can you give an example? i don't follow
  533. # [13:27] <zcorpan> do one of these: http://jsfiddle.net/HARj2/
  534. # [13:27] <zcorpan> doing something else is allowed but gets more confusing and the default style will probably be wrong
  535. # [13:30] <zcorpan> note that the top-level heading should not be in a <section>
  536. # [13:30] <zcorpan> the <body> is the top-level section
  537. # [13:37] <rtc> zcorpan, sorry one server got problems
  538. # [13:37] <rtc> ok
  539. # [13:38] <rtc> h1 h2 h3 are intended for tables of contents or for headings too?
  540. # [13:41] <jgraham> rtc: They are only intended for headings
  541. # [13:41] <jgraham> Headings are loosely defined as "things that would appear in a table of contents"
  542. # [13:42] <jgraham> But aren't the actual text of the TOC itself (that would probably be a set of nested <ol>s and <li>s)
  543. # [13:43] * Quits: nessy (~silviapf@101.164.144.53) (Quit: Leaving.)
  544. # [13:45] <zcorpan> right, you would *generate* the table of contents by looking at the headings in the document
  545. # [13:45] <zcorpan> not mark up the ToC itself using headings
  546. # [13:46] * Joins: baku (~baku@2-236-39-253.ip231.fastwebnet.it)
  547. # [13:52] <rtc> so how to make table of contents
  548. # [13:52] <rtc> using which elements?
  549. # [13:53] <rtc> ok so I guess ol li
  550. # [13:53] <rtc> ok
  551. # [13:53] <rtc> but stil I am confused
  552. # [13:53] <rtc> :S
  553. # [13:53] <rtc> why h1 is bigger than h2 in a section
  554. # [13:53] <rtc> ok
  555. # [13:53] <rtc> so I guess I should not use h1 together with h2 in same section right?
  556. # [13:53] <rtc> because I need to use h1 lonely or h2 h3 h4 withouth 1?
  557. # [13:53] <rtc> h1*
  558. # [13:55] * Joins: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@vpnp150.ugent.be)
  559. # [13:55] <smaug____> hmm, which spec defines XML fragment serialization algorithm
  560. # [13:55] <smaug____> maybe Ms2ger's
  561. # [13:55] <smaug____> oh, silly me
  562. # [13:55] <Ms2ger> HTML?
  563. # [13:56] <smaug____> yes
  564. # [13:56] <zcorpan> rtc: no, you either use only h1+section or h1+h2+h3+h4+h5+h6 without section
  565. # [13:57] <rtc> hm ok

The end :)