/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2013-10-11 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Oct 11 00:00:01 2013
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] * Quits: weinig (~weinig@17.114.217.25) (Quit: weinig)
  4. # [00:00] <cabanier> Justin and I are saying the same thing
  5. # [00:02] <Hixie_> that's not how i interpreted his statements but ok, s/justin's proposal/the annotation proposal/
  6. # [00:02] <cabanier> annotation proposal?
  7. # [00:03] <Hixie_> to not stop the dashes, unless there's an annotation that says to reset the dash offset
  8. # [00:03] <cabanier> that's my proposal. right?
  9. # [00:03] * Joins: madPleasure (~encryptd_@66-188-99-174.static.ftbg.wi.charter.com)
  10. # [00:04] <cabanier> dashes are reset when you do a moveTo or when you start a new path
  11. # [00:04] <cabanier> (new path does a moveTo as well)
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  14. # [00:06] <Hixie_> in this proposal, moveTo()s would not necessarily be so annotated
  15. # [00:06] <bholley> Hixie_, abarth - shall we talk?
  16. # [00:06] <Hixie_> cabanier: there'd be an API whereby you can change the moveTo() to reset or not reset.
  17. # [00:06] <Hixie_> bholley: sure
  18. # [00:06] * Quits: madPleas_ (~encryptd_@66-188-99-174.static.ftbg.wi.charter.com) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  19. # [00:06] * bholley looks for abarth
  20. # [00:07] <Hixie_> cabanier: (the default ideally being not to reset)
  21. # [00:07] <Hixie_> cabanier: same for anything else that creates a new subpath.
  22. # [00:07] <bholley> Hixie_: bz pointed out that freezing won't work spec-wise on Window, given that named properties are dynamic and visible cross-origin
  23. # [00:07] <Hixie_> cabanier: you'd presumably also be able to reset anywhere else
  24. # [00:07] <bholley> Hixie_: so we could either approximate it, or say that the objects themselves are governed by security exceptions, and (optionally) freeze the methods pulled off of them
  25. # [00:07] <Hixie_> bholley: that's one reason i was asking what "freezing" meant
  26. # [00:07] <cabanier> I don't think anyone is asking for this behavior.
  27. # [00:07] <cabanier> it's super confusing
  28. # [00:08] <Hixie_> cabanier: ...
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  31. # [00:08] <Hixie_> cabanier: i'm asking for the ability to not reset the offset. I'm trying to find a way to make you happy while still preserving the ability to do this. work with me here.
  32. # [00:08] <cabanier> ok :-)
  33. # [00:09] <Hixie_> bholley: i don't mind how we freeze it, though.
  34. # [00:09] <cabanier> I'm pretty sure that apple will object
  35. # [00:09] <bholley> Hixie_: what do you think about the Functions?
  36. # [00:09] <bholley> Hixie_: null prototypes? Frozen?
  37. # [00:09] <Hixie_> bholley: or even if it's different for Window/Location and Functions
  38. # [00:09] <Hixie_> bholley: both?
  39. # [00:09] <cabanier> they can't implement this since it would rely on measuring the length of the paths which is expensive
  40. # [00:09] <bholley> Hixie_: I'm ok with that. The null prototype is necessary to solve the general problem we've been having with prototypes
  41. # [00:09] <Hixie_> cabanier: you said that about everyone and then justin disagreed with you, so i'd much rather take their word for it than guess.
  42. # [00:10] <bholley> Hixie_: the freezing would just be for consistency
  43. # [00:10] <Hixie_> bholley: the freezing would be to allow UAs to not actually have unique objects per origin
  44. # [00:10] <bholley> Hixie_: right, that's a very fair point
  45. # [00:11] * Quits: felipeduardo (~felipedua@189.115.44.34) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
  46. # [00:11] <cabanier> Justin was not disagreeing with me. He wants something in addition to align the dashes
  47. # [00:11] <bholley> Hixie_: thanks for thinking of it :-)
  48. # [00:11] <Hixie_> cabanier: in the e-mail he just sent, he said he "could easily be convinced otherwise"
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  51. # [00:12] <cabanier> Hixie_: he sent another one
  52. # [00:12] <bholley> Hixie_: in Gecko, we've gotten away with just creating different function objects for each global, but that's not tenable spec-wise
  53. # [00:12] <Hixie_> afterwards?
  54. # [00:12] <bholley> Hixie_: so yeah, I'm for it :-)
  55. # [00:13] <Hixie_> bholley: ok. i think you and i are on the same page (finally! heh, sorry it took so long). but sounds like abarth isn't...
  56. # [00:13] <bholley> Hixie_: did you talk to him?
  57. # [00:13] <Hixie_> not since you did
  58. # [00:13] * Joins: dbaron (~dbaron@v-1045.fw1.sfo1.mozilla.net)
  59. # [00:13] <Hixie_> i asked him to comment on the bug
  60. # [00:14] <bholley> ok. I don't _think_ it should require magic on their end
  61. # [00:14] <Hixie_> bholley: i'll rewrite the proposal we came up with in one place so it's easier to comment on
  62. # [00:14] <bholley> given what I understand about their engine
  63. # [00:14] <bholley> it may be that abarth misunderstood the proposal
  64. # [00:14] <bholley> or that I misunderstand the intricacies of their engine
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  66. # [00:16] <TabAtkins> Regarding "Not covered by traditional media".
  67. # [00:16] <TabAtkins> Wut
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  69. # [00:16] <cabanier> Hixie_: I think the default should be that every moveTo restarts the dash pattern. It's not unreasonable to have a flag that doesn't do so, but I have to think about that
  70. # [00:17] <Hixie_> cabanier: again... why? why do you think that should be the default? just because it's the default in other systems?
  71. # [00:17] <TabAtkins> Since that matches <path> behavior (I think), that sounds reasonable to me.
  72. # [00:17] <cabanier> Hixie_: I've talked to a couple of people here and they think it wouldn't be stable
  73. # [00:17] <Hixie_> cabanier: because...?
  74. # [00:17] <Hixie_> TabAtkins: that would be a reasonable argument, yeah
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  76. # [00:18] <Hixie_> TabAtkins: (if there's no other argument and it can be overridden)
  77. # [00:18] <TabAtkins> Pretty sure <path> resets the stroke only on new subpaths, which are generated by movetos.
  78. # [00:18] <cabanier> Hixie_: I see stephan replied
  79. # [00:18] * Quits: sicking (~sicking@v-1045.fw1.sfo1.mozilla.net) (Quit: sicking)
  80. # [00:18] <TabAtkins> But yeah, having some flag for it doesn't sound unreasonable.
  81. # [00:18] <Hixie_> cabanier: is he not on the list? i don't see his e-mail
  82. # [00:19] <Hixie_> bholley: so we're saying on Window and Location objects cross-origin, and any attempt to set or configure a property should throw?
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  85. # [00:22] <Hixie_> bholley: probably simpler if we're doing that to just have all the objects behave like that, rather than have Function objects behave differently than Location, no?
  86. # [00:25] <cabanier> Hixie_: I got Stephan's mail. did it not go through for you?
  87. # [00:25] <Hixie_> i don't see it on http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-whatwg-archive/2013Oct/
  88. # [00:29] <cabanier> Hixie_: he's going to subscribe
  89. # [00:29] <cabanier> Hixie_: let me go ask some more people to see what they think.
  90. # [00:29] <cabanier> (internally)
  91. # [00:29] * Joins: danjesus (~danjesus@189-039-047-098.static.spo.ctbc.com.br)
  92. # [00:30] <Hixie_> cabanier: what would be useful is why they think what they think, not just what they think
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  95. # [00:38] <cabanier> Hixie_: talked to someone else who gave me a reason why your approach doesn't work.
  96. # [00:39] <cabanier> Hixie_: end caps contribute to the length of the path
  97. # [00:39] * Krinkle|detached is now known as Krinkle
  98. # [00:39] <cabanier> Hixie_: so, if you cut the path, you add 2 caps which are also dashed
  99. # [00:40] <cabanier> Hixie_: so the dashes will no longer line up in your approach
  100. # [00:40] <cabanier> Hixie_: I will send an email to make this clearer
  101. # [00:41] <Hixie_> the caps aren't dashed, per the spec
  102. # [00:41] <Hixie_> they're just caps
  103. # [00:41] <Hixie_> TabAtkins: (he's on a week break now)
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  106. # [00:43] <Hixie_> bholley: you still there? does this look ok? http://junkyard.damowmow.com/523
  107. # [00:45] * heycam|away is now known as heycam
  108. # [00:45] <Hixie_> heycam: your input on http://junkyard.damowmow.com/523 would be good too
  109. # [00:45] <cabanier> Hixie_: sorry. talk to Stephan. He said it doesn't matter
  110. # [00:45] <cabanier> s/talk/talked
  111. # [00:46] <bholley> Hixie_: reading
  112. # [00:46] <Hixie_> pretty sure i screwed up Window, specifically the supported property names stuff
  113. # [00:47] <bholley> Hixie_: - All the members, including supported property indices and supported property
  114. # [00:47] <bholley> names, must be "own" properties, not on the prototype.
  115. # [00:47] <bholley> Hixie_: is that because of other parts of the spec? Or because of this discussion?
  116. # [00:47] <Hixie_> because of this discussion.
  117. # [00:48] <bholley> Hixie_: oh
  118. # [00:48] <Hixie_> specifically, us making prototype=null
  119. # [00:48] <TabAtkins> Hixie_: Huh?
  120. # [00:48] <Hixie_> bholley: but i'm not tied to it
  121. # [00:48] <bholley> Hixie_: but only in the cross-origin case, right?
  122. # [00:48] <Hixie_> TabAtkins: the traditional media thing
  123. # [00:48] <TabAtkins> Oh, now I can parse your sentence. A week-long ban.
  124. # [00:48] <bholley> Hixie_: I can't tell if this proposal is general or implicitly referring to the cross-origin caser
  125. # [00:49] <Hixie_> bholley: oh you want the properties to only be own properties in the Alien Object case?
  126. # [00:49] <Hixie_> bholley: general.
  127. # [00:49] <Hixie_> bholley: the cross-origin stuff is mentioned explicitly lower.
  128. # [00:49] <bholley> Hixie_: oh yeah, I was definitely thinking that this only applied to the cross-origin case
  129. # [00:49] <Hixie_> k
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  131. # [00:50] <Hixie_> bholley: ok, i removed the first item in Location and Window and added the following to the Alien Object definition:
  132. # [00:50] <Hixie_> * promote all the members found on its prototypes, including supported
  133. # [00:50] <Hixie_> property indices and supported property names if any, to "own" properties
  134. # [00:50] <Hixie_> on the object itself.
  135. # [00:51] <bholley> Hixie_: link me to a refreshed version?
  136. # [00:51] <Hixie_> one sec
  137. # [00:51] <Hixie_> reload
  138. # [00:51] <Hixie_> (i am actually editing this in a bugzilla textarea, heh)
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  140. # [00:52] <heycam> what is the reason for making these changes for cross origin objects? I think I overheard bholley mentioning this at the summit but don't remember hearing the reason
  141. # [00:53] <bholley> heycam: define "these changes"
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  144. # [00:53] <Hixie_> bholley: the reason is "the spec is in looney town right now"
  145. # [00:53] <bholley> heycam: we're trying to write a spec for cross-origin access that is both secure and implementable
  146. # [00:53] <heycam> bholley, the removal of the prototype, making properties not enumerable, moving indexed/named properties to the instance
  147. # [00:53] <Hixie_> er, s/bholley/heycam/
  148. # [00:53] <bholley> heycam: it's a long story
  149. # [00:53] <Hixie_> bholley: (reload again)
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  151. # [00:53] <gsnedders> How much of the basic DOM stuff comes from NN? Most of it?
  152. # [00:53] <bholley> heycam: but for the prototype
  153. # [00:54] <bholley> heycam: consider - what do the prototypes look like, cross-origin?
  154. # [00:54] <Hixie_> gsnedders: NN and its contemporaneous IE
  155. # [00:54] <bholley> heycam: it's a tricky question
  156. # [00:54] <bholley> heycam: and in particular, every UA but Gecko currently cops out on that question and either throws or returns null
  157. # [00:54] <bholley> heycam: and it's probably easier to make gecko return null than the get the other UAs to implement whatever we cook up
  158. # [00:54] <heycam> bholley, can you normally access say window.Object from a cross origin window?
  159. # [00:54] <Hixie_> bholley: ok, i think it now also handles the supported property names
  160. # [00:54] <bholley> heycam: no
  161. # [00:54] <heycam> bholley, ok
  162. # [00:55] <gsnedders> Hixie_: Surely a fair bit is NN purely from it shipping with scripting first?
  163. # [00:55] <heycam> bholley, makes sense to do something then
  164. # [00:55] <Hixie_> gsnedders: "first" back then didn't mean much. it was probably only a matter of months.
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  166. # [00:56] <heycam> bholley, still, it might be odd to describe the cross origin Window object to have a null [[Prototype]] when the same object, from its own window, does have a prototype
  167. # [00:56] <Hixie_> gsnedders: (less than 12 months)
  168. # [00:56] <bholley> heycam: trust me, it's going to be odd no matter what we do
  169. # [00:56] <Hixie_> gsnedders: (sept 1995 to aug 1996)
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  171. # [00:56] <heycam> maybe they aren't "the same" object for some definition of same?
  172. # [00:56] <bholley> heycam: exactly
  173. # [00:56] <bholley> heycam: each origin gets its own view on the object
  174. # [00:56] <bholley> heycam: exactly how distinguishable those views are depends on how we spec it and how you implement it
  175. # [00:56] <heycam> bholley, aha, so some sort of forwarding proxy object?
  176. # [00:56] <Hixie_> "trust me, it's going to be odd no matter what we do" <-- preach it, brother.
  177. # [00:57] <bholley> heycam: in Gecko, yes. in Webkit/Blink, it's a separate reflector per origin
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  179. # [00:57] <heycam> bholley, ok. as long as the spec describes it that way. otherwise describing how [[Prototype]] looks different on the same object is going to be hard to understand. :)
  180. # [00:58] <gsnedders> Hixie_: Any idea where I might find any documentation of what's in NN2.03?
  181. # [00:58] <Hixie_> gsnedders: not off-hand. try wikipedia's references?
  182. # [00:58] <Hixie_> bholley: unless you see anything you think should change, i'm gonna post this to the bug. i need to bail momentarily.
  183. # [00:58] <gsnedders> Mostly dead-trees, sadly
  184. # [00:58] <bholley> Hixie_: this looks good
  185. # [00:58] <bholley> Hixie_: two small nits
  186. # [00:59] <Hixie_> gsnedders: yeah
  187. # [00:59] <bholley> Hixie_: (1) Given that we'll probably handle functions by freezing them, it will be hard to throw a SecurityError proper
  188. # [00:59] <gsnedders> Hixie_: And the university library doesn't happen to have them. Somewhat unsurprisingly. :)
  189. # [00:59] <Hixie_> bholley: yeah i was asking about that earlier. you prefer to have two kinds of frozen than just one type of Alien Object?
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  191. # [01:00] <bholley> Hixie_: I don't know. We could mimic the frozen-ness exceptions on Window and Location, modulo the named property thing
  192. # [01:00] <Hixie_> so change the last bullet point to from "were themselves Alien Objects" to "were themselves frozen"? but I don't know what that means w.r.t. their prototype, etc.
  193. # [01:00] <bholley> Hixie_: yeah
  194. # [01:00] <bholley> Hixie_: it's a tricky detail
  195. # [01:01] <bholley> Hixie_: I don't know how best to spec it
  196. # [01:01] <bholley> Hixie_: it's just a question of the SecurityError
  197. # [01:01] <bholley> Hixie_: like, we could have Window throw the same error that frozen objects throw
  198. # [01:02] <bholley> Hixie_: and just swallow the fact that it won't totally behave like a frozen object due to the named properties thing
  199. # [01:02] <Hixie_> i know nothing about frozen objects, so i don't know the implications of this
  200. # [01:02] <bholley> Hixie_: we can't have Object.isFrozen(xoWin) == true
  201. # [01:02] <bholley> because that would imply it never changes properties
  202. # [01:02] <Hixie_> my concern is that you not be able to do "otherWindow.postMessage.prototype.toString = ..."
  203. # [01:02] <Hixie_> or whatever hte syntax for that is
  204. # [01:03] <Hixie_> beyond that, i don't really care either way
  205. # [01:03] <bholley> Hixie_: .prototype? or .__proto__?
  206. # [01:03] <Hixie_> whichever is the scary one :-)
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  208. # [01:03] <Hixie_> i can never remember how all this works
  209. # [01:03] <bholley> Hixie_: you need to go and I need to sleep - let's leave this as a (?) now in the spec, and see what abarth thinks about the big picture
  210. # [01:03] <Hixie_> k
  211. # [01:04] <bholley> Hixie_: we can sort out this detail afterwards
  212. # [01:04] <bholley> Hixie_: just wrote "Some sort of error (?)" instead of SecurityError
  213. # [01:04] <bholley> Hixie_: feedback+ modulo that
  214. # [01:04] * bholley sleeps
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  216. # [01:07] <gsnedders> Oh dear god. Netscape 2.0 opens up a modal window *for every single JS syntax error*.
  217. # [01:08] <Hixie_> abarth: when you have a chance, https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=13154
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  220. # [01:18] <Domenic_> gsnedders: I remember that! Back in the days when browsers didn't let you get away with crappy code...
  221. # [01:19] <gsnedders> Domenic_: I just tried loading Google.com. I may have invoked kill to get out of Modal Hell.
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  248. # [02:11] <abarth> Hixie_: that's a long bug!
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  250. # [02:11] <abarth> Hixie_: you're asking about what URL pattern to use?
  251. # [02:11] <abarth> I think ismap does the comma thing
  252. # [02:11] <abarth> or usemap
  253. # [02:11] <abarth> whichever it is
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  266. # [02:23] <raj> the empty value option of a select should have color:#999 just as placeholders do in inputs
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  294. # [03:13] <Hixie_> abarth: oops, sorry man. i meant the security bug from earlier.
  295. # [03:14] <Hixie_> abarth: i meant https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20701
  296. # [03:14] <Hixie_> abarth: last comment is all you need to look at, really
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  306. # [03:35] <Sympa> Anyone remember someone called 'aspireonescs'?
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  314. # [03:49] <abarth> Hixie_: the "Alien Object" thing is problematic
  315. # [03:49] <abarth> at least the definition I read earlier
  316. # [03:50] <abarth> it seems to require magic on the JS side
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  319. # [03:53] <abarth> "We're not sure if the last bullet point in particular is enough" <--- it's not
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  325. # [04:04] <abarth> Hixie_: I left a more extensive comment on the bug
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  332. # [04:10] <Hixie_> abarth: thanks

The end :)