/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2013-10-15 / end

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  77. # [03:07] <zewt> apparently "SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER" overlay popups 10 seconds after you start reading a site is making a resurgence
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  115. # [05:29] <kochi1> MikeSmith: ping?
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  121. # [05:48] <MikeSmith> kochi1: away from my PC but will be back in 40 minutes or so
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  123. # [05:55] <kochi1> MikeSmith: ok, talk to you then.
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  136. # [06:41] <Domenic_> annevk-cloud: or anyone else at Mozilla: I need implementer feedback on an aspect of the ES6 promises spec, along the lines of "is it OK to require your engine to do this kind of optimization?". Who to ask?
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  139. # [06:51] <kochi1> MikeSmithZ: ping?
  140. # [06:51] <kochi1> MikeSmith: ^
  141. # [06:52] <MikeSmith> hey kochi1
  142. # [06:52] <MikeSmith> back now
  143. # [06:52] <kochi1> hi
  144. # [06:52] <kochi1> I finalized TPAC plan
  145. # [06:52] <kochi1> Will attend Mon and Tue.
  146. # [06:52] <MikeSmith> great
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  148. # [06:53] <MikeSmith> I still need to get my visa
  149. # [06:53] <kochi1> As far as I heard from people who attended last year, Mon and Tue will be good enough,
  150. # [06:53] <kochi1> What do you think?
  151. # [06:54] <MikeSmith> yeah that should be fine
  152. # [06:54] <kochi1> As a Japanese, I don't need visa as the trip is short (less than 15 days)
  153. # [06:54] <kochi1> okay, and I secured the Wenzhou hotel for that period.
  154. # [06:55] <MikeSmith> that's where I'm staying too
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  157. # [06:55] <MikeSmith> kochi1: do you know who else from your team is going?
  158. # [06:56] <kochi1> Kinuko will, definitely
  159. # [06:56] <kochi1> and Gary Kacmarcik will.
  160. # [06:57] <MikeSmith> ok cool
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  162. # [06:58] <kochi1> Probably others in Mountain View who I don't know will...
  163. # [06:58] <MikeSmith> Kinuko is going to talk about the Quota API mostly? or file-systems stuff too? or something else?
  164. # [06:58] <kochi1> I need to ask her :) to be honest, I don't know...
  165. # [06:58] <MikeSmith> ok
  166. # [07:00] <kochi1> She replied to ArtB's mail about Quota API, so at least Quota API, I guess.
  167. # [07:00] <MikeSmith> OK. about you, I know we want to have you there to talk about the IME API, but you're also involved with some of the DOM events work or something?
  168. # [07:01] <kochi1> Definitely for IME API, but optional for DOM L3 events.
  169. # [07:01] <MikeSmith> ok
  170. # [07:02] <kochi1> I'm attending DOM L3 calls for events like composition events and before input, as it relates to IME API, so I will be there for the DOM events session.
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  172. # [07:03] <rniwa> is there a place where we can see the list of use cases for web components?
  173. # [07:03] <rniwa> I can't find any wiki, etc... that lists all the use cases being discussed
  174. # [07:03] <kochi1> but I don't have much to pro-actively present there.
  175. # [07:03] <rniwa> maybe http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/wiki/Component_Model_Use_Cases ?
  176. # [07:05] <MikeSmith> rniwa: yeah, that
  177. # [07:06] <MikeSmith> I think also whatever the use cases are, they're the same as whatever the use cases are for AngularJS or Backbone or Ember
  178. # [07:11] <MikeSmith> what I still have yet to see any description of is, How will web components make user experience any better
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  180. # [07:11] <MikeSmith> rniwa: anyway I thought you guys were removing all traces of the web components stuff
  181. # [07:12] <zewt> not really the point of a lot of the web, other than as a side-effect of making authoring easier
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  185. # [07:20] <MikeSmith> a lot of the features that've been added to the platform over the last several years do make user experience better and and it's not hard at all to explain how they make user experience better
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  187. # [07:22] <MikeSmith> lack of being able to explain how something can make user experience better is the hallmark of stuff like XHTML modularization
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  189. # [07:23] <MikeSmith> and making authoring easier is no more of a guarantee of better user experience than making programming easier is
  190. # [07:23] <zewt> lots of stuff is completely irrelevant to users, except as a side effect (of course, the side-effect of better websites is the ultimate point, but not being directly user-facing is pretty irrelevant)
  191. # [07:24] <MikeSmith> I didn't say user-facing
  192. # [07:25] <zewt> (that isn't an argument for web components, which I don't know much about, just against the idea that "how does this make UX better" is such a critical factor)
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  194. # [07:25] <zewt> you said UX, that means user-facing to me :)
  195. # [07:26] <MikeSmith> OK, how about the question "hows does this not make UX worse"?
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  197. # [07:27] <MikeSmith> what I mean is, everything we add can potentially make performance worse
  198. # [07:28] <MikeSmith> and it can add implementation complexity that makes it a vector for bugs that users are going to run into
  199. # [07:28] <zewt> sure
  200. # [07:28] <zewt> "how is this worth the implementation cost" is definitely a fair question for any feature
  201. # [07:29] <MikeSmith> for the sake of comparison, consider the implementor argument against <picture><source>
  202. # [07:29] <MikeSmith> which is a valid argument
  203. # [07:29] <MikeSmith> in terms of the implementation expense, and potential for bugs
  204. # [07:30] <MikeSmith> but Web Components is a couple order of magnitude more complex than that
  205. # [07:31] <MikeSmith> yet there's not a lot of debate about, Hey, this is going to add a lot of implementation complexity and bug risks, but it's worth it all because it's getting us the really giant win of ... what?
  206. # [07:32] <MikeSmith> anyway
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  210. # [07:34] <MikeSmith> there are other cases where I see a ton of work going into something but don't seem to understanding by what path it all eventually lead to anything being better for users
  211. # [07:34] <MikeSmith> like, the whole idea of browser-engine-based OSes
  212. # [07:35] <zewt> well, no disagreement there; those are toys
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  214. # [07:35] <zewt> (which I have no objection to people playing around with, but it's annoying when we have to fend off the occasional "you should add this to the web so we can have it in our not-web thing" from people who don't understand the ground rules)
  215. # [07:39] <MikeSmith> yeah
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  278. # [11:00] <zcorpan> do we need tests to have unique <title>s?
  279. # [11:01] <zcorpan> i guess the answer should be "no"
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  285. # [11:22] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: I'd say I'd we wanted to require then to be unique, we'd want to provide some mechanism for test writers to check if their test files have unique ones
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  287. # [11:23] <MikeSmith> *if we wanted
  288. # [11:24] <zcorpan> yeah but why would we want to?
  289. # [11:26] <zcorpan> i can understand that we want unique titles of test() within a file, so that it's clear what result belongs to which test and so that it doesn't get confusing if one test happens to finish before another, etc
  290. # [11:27] <zcorpan> but for different files there's no ambiguity and it's not useful to spend time beating test writers over their <title>s if the test runner can figure it out anyway
  291. # [11:27] <jgraham> For different files there is no requirement of global uniqueness
  292. # [11:28] <zcorpan> ok, good :-)
  293. # [11:28] <jgraham> (test_url, title) needs to be unique for th.js tests and (test_url, ref_url) for reftests
  294. # [11:28] <jgraham> Did anyone suggest otherwise?
  295. # [11:29] <zcorpan> no i was just looking at a review with dup <title>s and wondered whether to raise an issue
  296. # [11:29] <jgraham> OK
  297. # [11:29] <jgraham> Just wondering if someone was wrong on the internet :)
  298. # [11:30] <zcorpan> i've already spent my 386 time of the day on other stuff
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  311. # [11:43] <annevk> smaug____: "But the spec should be more clear." I'm not sure what you want me to do
  312. # [11:43] <annevk> re: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=926208
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  315. # [11:46] <smaug____> annevk: let me find the right place in the spec...
  316. # [11:47] <annevk> So that part of the specification will likely change... Once I integrate XMLHttpRequest with Fetch which I've been saying I'll get to since forever...
  317. # [11:47] <smaug____> "When the time has passed, if the synchronous flag is unset, a timeout event will then be dispatched"
  318. # [11:47] <smaug____> that is non-normative
  319. # [11:47] <smaug____> but still hints that the event will be there
  320. # [11:47] <jgraham> MikeSmith: FWIW one of the points of FirefoxOS is that it forces us to work out what extra web APIs are needed so that web-based apps an have all the same features as android or iOS specific apps. And having cross-platform apps (possibly just "installed" by navigating to a url) is a win for users in much the same way that having websites rather than native apps has been
  321. # [11:47] <smaug____> even if the request has succeeded
  322. # [11:48] <smaug____> hmm, when was TimeoutError added
  323. # [11:49] <smaug____> ah, it is for workers only. that is ok
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  325. # [11:51] <smaug____> annevk: so I guess that non-normative text should indicate that timeout event or exception will be there only if the fetch hasn't ended or something
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  328. # [11:56] <annevk> So the specification is clear, it's just non-normative descriptions biting us...
  329. # [11:56] <annevk> I'm getting ever closer to just doing away with them
  330. # [11:57] <smaug____> yeah, I think the bug reporter just read the non-normative part and expected timeout to work the way non-normative text defines it to work
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  332. # [11:58] <smaug____> ah, is blink improving their webidl support too
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  334. # [11:59] <annevk> Yeah they've been doing that for a while
  335. # [12:00] <annevk> It's one of the things pilgrim was working on when Blink was still called WebKit
  336. # [12:00] <annevk> Not sure if he is still
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  338. # [12:01] <smaug____> I guess they've seen the awesomeness of Gecko's webidl stuff :)
  339. # [12:03] <annevk> That must've been it
  340. # [12:03] <annevk> smaug____: added a sentence to that unclear XHR sentence
  341. # [12:04] <annevk> smaug____: I note you didn't close the bug as INVALID though
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  343. # [12:04] <smaug____> annevk: well, there isn't a testcase
  344. # [12:04] <annevk> fair
  345. # [12:04] <smaug____> so I was hoping to see that before closing
  346. # [12:05] <smaug____> I guess I should close it and ask reopening if needed
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  351. # [12:15] <annevk> Man, multiple globals are a bitch
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  353. # [12:22] <jgraham> Just as well they were invented in the past, really
  354. # [12:22] <jgraham> Otherwise we wouldn't be allowed nice things for theoretical reasons
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  387. # [14:13] <annevk> Hixie_: I decided to reply to Jeff: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-i18n-core/2013OctDec/0013.html
  388. # [14:13] <annevk> Hixie_: I added you in the cc, if you want to add something
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  390. # [14:16] <annevk> Domenic_: try Jason Orendorff maybe?
  391. # [14:16] <annevk> Domenic_: Andrea Marchesini implemented promises atm, but not in SM
  392. # [14:17] <annevk> mvujovic: pong
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  399. # [14:43] <Domenic_> annevk: ok cool. and is http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Who_to_ask_about_stuff correct that travis leithead is the appropriate MS contact?
  400. # [14:44] <annevk> Domenic_: yeah, he'll know who to ask internally anyway
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  403. # [14:51] <annevk> Domenic_: instead of http://url.spec.whatwg.org/#dom-url "SyntaxError", a JS TypeError would be appropriate, right?
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  411. # [15:07] <zcorpan> people sure like to bikeshed about naming
  412. # [15:09] <darobin> I don't think that bikeshed is the right name for it
  413. # [15:09] <Ms2ger> darobin++
  414. # [15:09] <gsnedders> To quote someone, "Does Opera support the `bikeshed` CSS property?"
  415. # [15:09] <gsnedders> From when there was a bikeshed CSS property defined.
  416. # [15:10] <Ms2ger> Opera had it first
  417. # [15:10] <zcorpan> that's right
  418. # [15:13] <zcorpan> matjas: https://github.com/mathiasbynens/cssesc maybe the default for isIdentifier should be true, given http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-whatwg-archive/2013Oct/0075.html ?
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  424. # [15:24] <zcorpan> matjas: also, i think ascii-only usually isn't necessary
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  426. # [15:32] <matjas> zcorpan: cssesc mirrors https://github.com/mathiasbynens/jsesc in that it has options to enable more aggressive escaping. making this change would change that
  427. # [15:33] <zcorpan> matjas: ah
  428. # [15:33] <matjas> that said, thanks for the info — I’ll happily create a `CSS.escape` polyfill
  429. # [15:33] * Joins: jwalden (~waldo@cha74-2-88-160-190-192.fbx.proxad.net)
  430. # [15:33] <zcorpan> cool
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  441. # [16:04] <zewt> zcorpan: my favorite is the "i don't want to bikeshed, but how about [list of names]"
  442. # [16:04] <zcorpan> zewt: heh
  443. # [16:09] <jgraham> In the future I plan to say "I love nothing more than a good bikeshed! I brought 17 different suggestions for paint^Wnames!". That should convince everyone else to agree on one sensible one very quickly
  444. # [16:10] <annevk> That's how we ended up with querySelector()
  445. # [16:10] <annevk> Don't do that again
  446. # [16:12] * Joins: plutoniix (~plutoniix@node-aib.pool-125-25.dynamic.totbb.net)
  447. # [16:14] <m4nu> annevk: What spec should we reference for Promises? We have JSON-LD going to PR soon, we need to non-normatively reference something.
  448. # [16:14] <darobin> there's always the Voting Off the Island process, it takes time but at least it makes bikeshedding names fun
  449. # [16:14] <annevk> m4nu: https://github.com/domenic/promises-unwrapping/blob/master/README.md
  450. # [16:14] * Quits: ronaldmansveld (~ronaldman@smtp.pixelindustries.com) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  451. # [16:14] <m4nu> ok thanks
  452. # [16:14] <darobin> we need a way of running that as a service
  453. # [16:15] <zcorpan> annevk: it's not in es6 yet?
  454. # [16:16] <annevk> zcorpan: no, subclassing woes
  455. # [16:17] * Quits: skylamer` (~cgskylame@78.90.215.70) (Remote host closed the connection)
  456. # [16:21] <m4nu> annevk: Is there any copyright concern over that document? Can we make a static copy of it at W3C? Sandro is saying that ECMA had an issue w/ the public domain assertion on the document (Dom's employer has a copyright assertion on it?)
  457. # [16:21] <m4nu> annevk: we're trying to figure out if we can archive the document at W3C to refer to it non-normatively.
  458. # [16:24] * Joins: ronaldmansveld (~ronaldman@smtp.pixelindustries.com)
  459. # [16:24] <annevk> m4nu: why can't you just refer to the repo?
  460. # [16:25] <annevk> m4nu: ECMA's concern is not about copyright, but about non-Member contributions
  461. # [16:25] <annevk> m4nu: euhm, Ecma's*
  462. # [16:28] <Domenic_> m4nu: it's CC0
  463. # [16:28] <Domenic_> m4nu: I got employer approval for that on Sunday, legal document signed and all.
  464. # [16:29] <Domenic_> annevk: SyntaxError seems OK to me, it's used for e.g. bad JSON, but I think Allen doesn't like using SyntaxError for non-JS-syntax errors, so in that case TypeError is probably best.
  465. # [16:29] <annevk> Domenic_: right
  466. # [16:30] <annevk> Domenic_: it wasn't using SyntaxError, it was using DOMException whose name is SyntaxError
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  471. # [16:34] <Domenic_> what about URIError?
  472. # [16:36] <annevk> heh
  473. # [16:36] <annevk> that whole API is kinda flawed
  474. # [16:36] <annevk> I rather not build on top of it
  475. # [16:36] * Quits: richt (~richt@180.94.118.5) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  476. # [16:39] <zcorpan> annevk: <http://www.w3.org/mid/52570E9C.2040606@nostrum.com>
  477. # [16:40] <annevk> zcorpan: he seems confused
  478. # [16:40] <zcorpan> i'll let you deal with it :-)
  479. # [16:41] <annevk> zcorpan: doesn't seem like something I want to step into
  480. # [16:42] <annevk> oh look
  481. # [16:42] <annevk> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webrtc/2013Oct/0019.html W3C bullshit strikes again
  482. # [16:42] * Quits: jdaggett (~jdaggett@y230006.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp) (Quit: jdaggett)
  483. # [16:42] <annevk> I don't even...
  484. # [16:42] <annevk> zcorpan: I'm having this problem: https://twitter.com/gsnedders/status/390101791389413376
  485. # [16:43] <matjas> zcorpan: what should `CSS.escape()` do when called without any parameters?
  486. # [16:43] <annevk> I addressed one issue that needed fixing today, the rest was all email explaining stuff :/
  487. # [16:44] <zcorpan> matjas: what do you think it should do, from a webdev perspective?
  488. # [16:44] * Quits: tomasf (~tomasf@77.72.97.10.c.fiberdirekt.net) (Quit: tomasf)
  489. # [16:45] <matjas> zcorpan: return the empty string
  490. # [16:45] <zcorpan> currently it throws TypeError per webidl i think. also if you pass `undefined`
  491. # [16:45] <zcorpan> but i can make it empty string instead
  492. # [16:46] <zcorpan> matjas: any rationale for empty string?
  493. # [16:49] <matjas> just seemed more useful than throwing
  494. # [16:49] <matjas> but either way it should probably match passing `undefined`, so maybe letting it throw is better
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  496. # [16:50] <annevk> you can make omitting the same as passing ""
  497. # [16:51] <annevk> which means undefined is the same as passing ""
  498. # [16:51] <matjas> in that case the return value would have to be the empty string
  499. # [16:52] <annevk> escape(optional DOMString foo = "") seems reasonable
  500. # [16:53] * Joins: brion (~brion@wikipedia/pdpc.professional.brion)
  501. # [16:53] <Domenic_> agree, that matches doing a ToString on the argument. `String(undefined) === ""`.
  502. # [16:53] <Domenic_> Note that `String(null) === "null"`
  503. # [16:54] * Joins: richt (~richt@180.94.118.5)
  504. # [16:54] <annevk> Domenic_: no...
  505. # [16:55] <annevk> Domenic_: String(undefined) === "undefined"
  506. # [16:55] <Ms2ger`> ^
  507. # [16:55] <Domenic_> Oh drr
  508. # [16:56] <Domenic_> Well then I think CSS.escape(undefined) === "undefined" is best, but CSS.escape(undefined) === "" is OK, you would do `CSS.escape = (s = "") => { do escaping... }
  509. # [16:56] * Quits: richt (~richt@180.94.118.5) (Remote host closed the connection)
  510. # [16:56] <Domenic_> But CSS.escape(null) definitely should be "null"
  511. # [16:56] <matjas> Domenic_: so you’re saying ES ToString() should be applied to the argument values?
  512. # [16:57] * matjas reads up
  513. # [16:57] <matjas> uhm, yeah, you literally did just that, ignore me
  514. # [16:57] <annevk> well that's already the case for DOMString
  515. # [16:57] <annevk> Domenic_: I think treating undefined as omitted is better; otherwise you get different results for CSS.escape()
  516. # [16:58] <Domenic_> CSS.escape(undefined) === CSS.escape() === "undefined" is my proposal
  517. # [16:58] <annevk> ew
  518. # [16:58] <matjas> that doesn’t seem very useful
  519. # [16:58] <matjas> (although it does align with ES ToString)
  520. # [16:58] <Domenic_> it's most idiomatic I think
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  522. # [16:59] <Domenic_> It's what happens to most ES spec functions when you pass them undefined/omit the value and they expect a string
  523. # [17:00] <matjas> that is true, but given how CSS.escape is supposed to be used empty seems more useful
  524. # [17:00] <Domenic_> "undefinedX".startsWith() === true
  525. # [17:00] <matjas> CSS.escape(element.somePropertyThatIsUndefinedByAccident)
  526. # [17:01] <Domenic_> Wouldn't you want to see the "undefined" so that the accident becomes apparent?
  527. # [17:01] <jgraham> You would want it to throw :p
  528. # [17:01] <matjas> hmm, maybe
  529. # [17:01] <Domenic_> "undefinedX".replace(undefined, "foo") === "fooX"
  530. # [17:01] <zcorpan> TabAtkins: what's the webidl support in bikeshed like?
  531. # [17:02] <Domenic_> "xundefined".indexOf() === 1
  532. # [17:03] <jgraham> Domenic_: I don't think it's controversial that it's what the builtins typically do
  533. # [17:03] <jgraham> I think the only controversy is whether those mistakes therefore have to be propogated to all APIs
  534. # [17:03] <zcorpan> please file a bug when you've figured out what should happen (if it's different from what the spec has now) :-)
  535. # [17:04] <matjas> I’ll just write the tests based on the current behavior (i.e. throwing as per WebIDL) and we’ll go from there
  536. # [17:04] <Domenic_> Don't throw :(
  537. # [17:05] * Quits: mven_ (~mven@ip68-224-15-53.lv.lv.cox.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  538. # [17:05] <jgraham> Is there a reason not to throw except the (in this case rather weak, I think) consistency argument?
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  541. # [17:07] <Domenic_> throwing is unexpected... very unlike the rest of the platform or any user-space libraries. nobody does argument validation, they just use the values they're given.
  542. # [17:07] <matjas> i argued for "" not because of consistency with ES built-ins that use ToString but rather because it seemed more useful
  543. # [17:08] * Quits: mven_ (~mven@ip68-224-15-53.lv.lv.cox.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  544. # [17:08] <matjas> handles the edge case of `undefined` / no params more gracefully
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  546. # [17:09] <jgraham> Since passing invalid values is by definition an edge case and typically a mistake that kind of consistency seems rather misguided. Instead you should focus on how to make the best API possible given the constraints and the infrastructure
  547. # [17:09] <matjas> but as Domenic_ said, “Wouldn't you want to see the "undefined" so that the accident becomes apparent?” → the way to really make that apparent is to throw an error
  548. # [17:09] <Domenic_> jgraham: I think the definition of best API as defined by ES programmers is to not throw and to coerce instead. This is standard practice and I am unsure why it is getting pushback.
  549. # [17:10] <jgraham> Saying "well typical js authors are too lazy / don't have a convenient way to validate arguments so no one else should either" seems like a race to the bottom
  550. # [17:10] <jgraham> Domenic_: You haven't made the argument for that being the "best" API
  551. # [17:11] <jgraham> It is closest to the stdlib (which is rather tiny), but that has unfortunate compat constraints
  552. # [17:11] * Quits: mven (~mven@ip68-224-15-53.lv.lv.cox.net) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
  553. # [17:11] <Domenic_> I guess I don't really see the need to, this is just common JS API design knowledge. See e.g. Effective JavaScript.
  554. # [17:11] <jgraham> It might be what js authors do, but that reflects the lack of effective tools for doing other things
  555. # [17:11] <Domenic_> right, if we were using another language, we would do something differently. but JS is our tool so we do things the JS way.
  556. # [17:12] <jgraham> Even if, per your own criteria, it is not actually best for authors?
  557. # [17:12] <Ms2ger`> Badly?
  558. # [17:12] <Domenic_> maybe talk to the dart folks to make sure they establish your preferred throwing idiom as the darty way
  559. # [17:12] <jgraham> I have exactly no interest in dart
  560. # [17:12] <Domenic_> you clearly have an interest in doing JS "better" (according to you...)
  561. # [17:13] <jgraham> I have an interest in making the APIs as good as possible for authors
  562. # [17:13] <jgraham> Consistency is only one facet of goodness
  563. # [17:13] <jgraham> If this were a common case I would agree that consistency on its own would obviously be a winning argument
  564. # [17:13] * Quits: Ms2ger` (~Ms2ger@tstb011b.ugent.be) (Quit: bbl)
  565. # [17:13] <jgraham> But it is, by definition an edge case
  566. # [17:14] <jgraham> Also, I think it is more consistent with other DOM functions
  567. # [17:21] * Quits: Kolombiken (~Adium@gateway.creuna.se) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
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  573. # [17:27] <TabAtkins> zcorpan: Bikeshed parses the webidl (it throws errors for invalid stuff, but should gracefully handle unknown stuff that doesn't otherwise invalidate the basic structure of the grammar.
  574. # [17:27] <TabAtkins> zcorpan: Then it spits out marked-up text with either <a> or <dfn> around all the relevant things, based on whether it can find a definition for each term somewhere else or not.
  575. # [17:28] <TabAtkins> zcorpan: And that's it. It does this for everything with <pre class=idl>.
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  585. # [17:51] <zewt> Domenic_: it has nothing to do with what I'm doing; web pages use it, and I use web pages
  586. # [17:51] * Quits: cabanier1 (~cabanier@c-98-237-137-173.hsd1.wa.comcast.net) (Quit: Leaving.)
  587. # [17:51] <zewt> (re: window-modal alerts)
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  593. # [18:05] <annevk> jamesr__: that guy on blink-dev...
  594. # [18:09] <jgraham> marcosc_: I don't see why it matters if some other files you are not committing are marked as modified?
  595. # [18:09] <jgraham> What's the actual problem?
  596. # [18:09] * Quits: darobin (~darobin@78.109.80.74) (Remote host closed the connection)
  597. # [18:10] <marcosc_> jgraham: the problem is that when I clone the repo, git rewrites all the files that have a LFCR
  598. # [18:11] <jgraham> You mean a CRLF?
  599. # [18:11] <matjas> Domenic_, jgraham, zcorpan, annevk: `CSS.escape(number)` might be a good reason to coerce the arguments to strings after all
  600. # [18:11] <marcosc_> jgraham: yeah, sorry
  601. # [18:11] <annevk> matjas: coercing to string is not really contested I think
  602. # [18:11] * marcosc_ having too many conversations at the same time
  603. # [18:12] <jgraham> marcosc_: Pretty sure you should be able to disable that, but what, concretely, is the problem? You can't build?
  604. # [18:12] <marcosc_> jgraham: I can't commit
  605. # [18:12] <matjas> annevk: but coercing to string implies that `CSS.escape(undefined) === CSS.escape("undefined")` which is what the entire discussion was about
  606. # [18:12] <Domenic_> annevk: matjas: agreed, coercion to string is not contested. The question is whether to add `= ""` so that CSS.escape() or CSS.escape(undefined) give "" instead of "undefined". I think it's unnecessary but it's a pretty minor part.
  607. # [18:12] <annevk> matjas: no, the discussion was about whether an omitted argument should be special-cased
  608. # [18:13] <Domenic_> s/omitted argument/omitted or undefined argument/
  609. # [18:13] <matjas> alright
  610. # [18:13] <marcosc_> jgraham: see https://github.com/mozilla/servo/pull/1015#issuecomment-26127647
  611. # [18:13] <matjas> thanks for clarifying
  612. # [18:13] <marcosc_> that's what I get
  613. # [18:13] <marcosc_> jgraham: all the files look like they've changed
  614. # [18:13] * Joins: Maurice (copyman@5ED57922.cm-7-6b.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
  615. # [18:13] <marcosc_> jgraham: even though I didn't change them :(
  616. # [18:14] <jgraham> marcosc_: That is messy, but I don't know why it's a problem
  617. # [18:14] <jgraham> Does it stop you building?
  618. # [18:14] <annevk> jgraham: I think throwing for undefined but not e.g. [] is rather weird fwiw
  619. # [18:14] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@cpe-172-254-56-122.nyc.res.rr.com) (Quit: tantek)
  620. # [18:14] <marcosc_> jgraham: no, builds fine
  621. # [18:14] <Domenic_> annevk: jason's tweet is interesting, it's fun to think of es6 as built from lots of cc0 specs.
  622. # [18:14] <jgraham> You can just not commit the things that you don't want to
  623. # [18:14] * Joins: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@91.180.155.192)
  624. # [18:14] <annevk> Domenic_: yeah, he should totally license it like that, although once integrated it might get lost
  625. # [18:15] <annevk> until we get Ecma to fix things
  626. # [18:15] * Joins: cabanier (~cabanier@192.150.22.55)
  627. # [18:15] <marcosc_> jgraham: true, but it makes management very annoying ... as I need to distinguish between stuff I changed and stuff that Git changed
  628. # [18:15] <jgraham> But did you try git config --global core.autocrlf=false
  629. # [18:15] <marcosc_> jgraham: will try that
  630. # [18:16] <jgraham> That's the "old" mechanism aiui, but if it's set to true then it could cause problems
  631. # [18:16] <marcosc_> jgraham: it's currently set to nothing
  632. # [18:16] <marcosc_> when I try to set it, I get "error: invalid key: core.autocrlf=false"
  633. # [18:16] <jgraham> s/=/ /
  634. # [18:17] <marcosc_> ah
  635. # [18:18] <marcosc_> might have done the trick
  636. # [18:18] <marcosc_> jgraham: at least it's not complaining anymore
  637. # [18:18] <jgraham> Sounds like an improvement
  638. # [18:18] <marcosc_> jgraham: argh..
  639. # [18:19] * Joins: baku (~baku@2-236-39-253.ip231.fastwebnet.it)
  640. # [18:19] <marcosc_> jgraham: now I get - "fatal: bad config value for 'core.autocrlf' in /Users/marcosc/.gitconfig"
  641. # [18:19] <marcosc_> heh
  642. # [18:19] <jgraham> Huh?
  643. # [18:20] * Quits: stalled (~stalled@unaffiliated/stalled) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  644. # [18:20] * Quits: shwetank (~shwetank@122.173.109.28) (Quit: Linkinus - http://linkinus.com)
  645. # [18:20] <jgraham> Which version of git is this? And what's in that file?
  646. # [18:20] <Ms2ger> The next best solution is throwing your computer out of the window, I think
  647. # [18:20] <marcosc_> heh
  648. # [18:20] <marcosc_> ok, fixed
  649. # [18:21] <marcosc_> fatal: bad object HEAD
  650. # [18:22] * Quits: kbrosnan (~kbrosnan@firefox/community/qa/kbrosnan) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  651. # [18:22] <marcosc_> fatal: 'git status --porcelain' failed in submodule src/support/skia/skia
  652. # [18:22] <marcosc_> yay:)
  653. # [18:22] <marcosc_> Ms2ger is probably right
  654. # [18:22] * Joins: kbrosnan (~kbrosnan@firefox/community/qa/kbrosnan)
  655. # [18:22] <marcosc_> will try a hard reset ... cause that's how we fix things
  656. # [18:22] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@c-50-136-134-16.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  657. # [18:24] * Joins: jorgepedret (~jorgepedr@64-46-23-103.dyn.novuscom.net)
  658. # [18:24] <marcosc_> trashing and cloning again...
  659. # [18:24] * marcosc_ still blames the Windows users
  660. # [18:25] * Quits: tomasf (~tomasf@static-88.131.62.43.addr.tdcsong.se) (Quit: tomasf)
  661. # [18:27] * marcosc_ is now known as marcosc
  662. # [18:27] <marcosc> wait... I should be blaming Ms2ger
  663. # [18:27] <Ms2ger> Blame git
  664. # [18:30] * Quits: Smylers (~smylers@81.143.60.194) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
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  666. # [18:33] <marcosc> Ms2ger, shut up Mr Mercurial :)
  667. # [18:34] <Ms2ger> marcosc, it never messes with your line endings...
  668. # [18:34] <marcosc> jgraham: I think what you suggested may have worked... don't seem to be having the problems anymore
  669. # [18:35] <jgraham> marcosc: Good, good
  670. # [18:35] <jgraham> Ms2ger: It can, but doesn't by default
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  672. # [18:35] <jgraham> I tend to think the git default behaviour is broken here, but then I'm not a windows user
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  676. # [18:38] <marcosc> jgraham: still borked :( "fatal: Not a git repository: src/support/skia/skia/../../../../.git/modules/src/support/skia/skia"
  677. # [18:39] <jgraham> That sounds like a different problem
  678. # [18:39] <marcosc> yeah
  679. # [18:39] <Ms2ger> Reclone
  680. # [18:39] <Ms2ger> That's what I always do
  681. # [18:39] <marcosc> Ms2ger: I literally just recloned it
  682. # [18:39] <Ms2ger> Heh
  683. # [18:39] <Ms2ger> Build?
  684. # [18:39] <jgraham> marcosc: Did you try to submodule update?
  685. # [18:40] <marcosc> jgraham: no, will try that
  686. # [18:40] <jgraham> I have never done that with servo, only used the build script
  687. # [18:40] <jgraham> Oh, well I was going to say it might not be a good idea)
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  692. # [18:42] <marcosc> jgraham: yeah, that might cause more stuff to fall out of sync
  693. # [18:43] <marcosc> going to try to re-fork
  694. # [18:43] <annevk> Domenic_: hah, in https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hneN6aW-d9w it's still "WHAT-WUG"
  695. # [18:43] <marcosc> yeah... been meaning to talk to Domenic_ about that
  696. # [18:43] <marcosc> :)
  697. # [18:43] <annevk> WHAT-WII-GEE
  698. # [18:44] <Domenic_> Hey I'm just glad I managed to say "opera" instead of "oprah" like I do inside my head all the time... baby steps.
  699. # [18:44] <annevk> hahaha
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  701. # [18:45] <jgraham> But ironically when Swedes (and therefore quite possibly also Norwegians) say it, it sounds more like Oprah.
  702. # [18:46] <annevk> Domenic_: it's very good though; nice summary of all the lessons learned along the way
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  704. # [18:47] <Domenic_> jgraham: vindicated at last!! kind of.
  705. # [18:47] <Domenic_> annevk: thanks! :D
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  707. # [18:47] <jgraham> odinho: (is that actually true?)
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  715. # [19:01] <TabAtkins> Domenic_: Oh man, the way you pronounced that grated on my ears so hard. ^_^
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  723. # [19:19] <MikeSmith> TabAtkins: about srcN have you considered simply having a discrete number of attribute names? e.g., just src1-src9?
  724. # [19:20] <TabAtkins> MikeSmith: Other than making validators slightly easier to write, I don't see what benefit that has.
  725. # [19:21] <MikeSmith> the benefit of optimizing for the sane case instead of the pathological ones
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  727. # [19:22] <MikeSmith> in practice how many image alternatives do people actually normally want to use these kinds of mechanisms to specify?
  728. # [19:22] <MikeSmith> 5? 6?
  729. # [19:22] <TabAtkins> I don't see how this particularly optimizes for a sane case. The difference between 9 and N attributes is pretty irrelevant implementation-wise.
  730. # [19:22] <MikeSmith> it's not markup-wise
  731. # [19:23] <MikeSmith> or authoring-wise
  732. # [19:23] <MikeSmith> or documentation-wise
  733. # [19:23] <jgraham> To be fair documentation wise it's easier to have an unbouded set and a pattern
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  735. # [19:24] <TabAtkins> Yes it is, for all of those.
  736. # [19:25] <TabAtkins> I don't see how saying "src10 is illegal" makes anything easier markup-wise or authoring-wise.
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  739. # [19:26] <annevk> srcN, so ugly :/
  740. # [19:26] <annevk> I was kinda hoping <h1-6> was the last of that
  741. # [19:26] <TabAtkins> annevk: Come up with something better. :/
  742. # [19:26] <TabAtkins> It's identical to having multiple elements for sources, but with better implementation shape apparently.
  743. # [19:27] <aho> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/embedded-content-1.html#the-img-element states: "The src attribute must be present [...]". however, the steps below are written in a way which implies that src is optional. also, if width and height are set, browsers will happily render the element.
  744. # [19:28] <Hixie_> aho: the steps are written in a way that acknowledges that pages might be invalid.
  745. # [19:28] <annevk> TabAtkins: I think my current stance on this while thing is that we should try to figure out how to outsource this whole problem to custom elements
  746. # [19:28] <annevk> whole thing*
  747. # [19:28] <aho> ah, right
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  749. # [19:28] <Hixie_> aho: see http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/introduction.html#how-to-read-this-specification
  750. # [19:28] <TabAtkins> annevk: I see no way in which that is remotely possible.
  751. # [19:28] <Hixie_> second paragraph in particular
  752. # [19:28] <TabAtkins> Like, it's not a path toward a solution in any way.
  753. # [19:29] <TabAtkins> annevk: Because interaction with the preload scanner is a base requirement.
  754. # [19:29] <TabAtkins> And virtually by definition, that means it has to be a native language feature.
  755. # [19:29] <annevk> TabAtkins: the preload scanner will need to be standardized and exposed, of course
  756. # [19:29] <aho> i currently use "data:," as no-op image src for generated documentation, but that looks and feels kinda awkward
  757. # [19:29] <TabAtkins> Ugh, that doesn't sound fun.
  758. # [19:30] <annevk> TabAtkins: it will have to interact with service workers' fetch feature too
  759. # [19:30] <annevk> TabAtkins: (architecture) standards are no fun
  760. # [19:30] <annevk> (unless you're into that kind of thing)
  761. # [19:31] <Hixie_> aho: it's what i do :-)
  762. # [19:31] <Hixie_> aho: that, or not have the image at all...
  763. # [19:31] <jgraham> architecture standards can quickly turn into architecture astronautics
  764. # [19:31] <annevk> jgraham: example?
  765. # [19:32] <aho> Hixie_, it's documentation for CSS "bricks" which sometimes do include an image (like, say, a thumbnail for some product)
  766. # [19:32] <jgraham> Well you seem to be proposing a feature with stated no use case just because that's what the architecture you envision requires
  767. # [19:32] <aho> so, i kinda need some no-op image there
  768. # [19:32] <jgraham> *no stated
  769. # [19:32] <annevk> jgraham: you lost me
  770. # [19:33] <jgraham> You are proposing spending engineering effort exposing the preload scanner, but it isn't at all clear if that has a real use case
  771. # [19:34] <jgraham> Other than "maybe implement responsive images on top of other primitives that don't exist yet"
  772. # [19:34] <jgraham> Which might all turn out to be fine and sensible and a good idea
  773. # [19:34] <annevk> jgraham: oh the preload scanner needs to be exposed for offline
  774. # [19:35] <annevk> jgraham: that's part of exposing most of network so apps can decide whether to do network rather than the browser
  775. # [19:35] <jgraham> But right now it feels like the atmosphere's getting thin
  776. # [19:35] <jgraham> Why does that require the preload scanner?
  777. # [19:35] <annevk> jgraham: well the preload scanner will have to be exposed
  778. # [19:35] <annevk> jgraham: because network roundtrips through JavaScript
  779. # [19:36] <TabAtkins> Yeah, that part's true - if you're trying to intercept network loads with a service worker, and the preload scanner fires off network loads, then obviously there's an observable interaction there.
  780. # [19:37] <jgraham> Sure. But that doesn't mean that you can customise the behaviour
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  782. # [19:38] <TabAtkins> Yeah it does - at minimum, it means you can block a preload.
  783. # [19:38] <TabAtkins> But given that you can actually intercept every other network request and provide custom data, it would be very weird if you couldn't do that for preload requests.
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  785. # [19:39] <jgraham> Well in particular it doesn't mean that you can make the scanner scan for different elements
  786. # [19:39] <jgraham> Or attributes
  787. # [19:39] <jgraham> So you can change the effects of the scanner
  788. # [19:39] <jgraham> But not the scanner itself
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  790. # [19:45] <annevk> jgraham: that's a good point
  791. # [19:46] <annevk> jgraham: I guess if we want custom elements to be successful we might need that at some point, although there's some pretty daunting dependency problems there :/
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  794. # [19:48] <TabAtkins> Ah, yeah, indeed.
  795. # [19:48] <TabAtkins> (That was to jgraham.)
  796. # [19:49] <TabAtkins> annevk: Yeah, dealing with the dependency problems is almost impossible, without something like a declarative DSL that specifies which element/attrs are looked at and provides a grammar for extracting the urls.
  797. # [19:50] <TabAtkins> Which sounds terrible.
  798. # [19:51] <annevk> Well, you also need to have the semantics of the custom element known at runtime. That's the harder part...
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  800. # [19:51] <annevk> Well, the encompassing part I suppose.
  801. # [19:52] <annevk> There's a lot of ways in which custom elements will still be second-class citizens.
  802. # [19:52] <annevk> Which is rather sad...
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  808. # [20:00] <Ms2ger> Hrm
  809. # [20:00] <Ms2ger> Didn't I see a change to fix http://w3c-test.org/web-platform-tests/master/XMLHttpRequest/formdata.htm?
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  811. # [20:07] <annevk> smaug____: you around? The way timeout is defined now means that you might be able to access responseText for a bit and then once the timeout happens responseText is cleared because the error flag is set.
  812. # [20:07] <annevk> smaug____: which is similar to what we do for end-user abort
  813. # [20:08] <annevk> smaug____: and abort(), so maybe that's all fine
  814. # [20:08] <annevk> smaug____: I'm trying to figure out what the async interface is that Fetch should expose
  815. # [20:09] <smaug____> hmm
  816. # [20:09] <annevk> In the simple case you either have a network error, or a response which is subdivided into getting the headers, getting data, getting data EOF
  817. # [20:10] <annevk> In this more complicated case where we also have end-user abort and timeout the response you're already receiving is replaced somehow...
  818. # [20:11] <annevk> Maybe as far as Fetch is concerned is that you simply killed the network and you get an erroneous "getting data EOF". And then at the API level it does the thing where it doesn't care about the response and such anymore.
  819. # [20:11] <smaug____> well, timeout and abort are kind of error cases, so clearing responseText sounds reasonable
  820. # [20:12] <annevk> Sure, for XMLHttpRequest, but is it sensible for <img>?
  821. # [20:13] <annevk> Or should <img> keep showing the part of the image it was already displaying? I'm thinking the latter is what I typically see happen (and what I'd like as a user if my connection suddenly dropped)
  822. # [20:13] <smaug____> right
  823. # [20:13] <annevk> Oh sorry, connection dropping is different. Aah. What I see happen if I hit the cancel button.
  824. # [20:14] <Hixie_> Domenic_: that's a great talk. (just watched it)
  825. # [20:16] <smaug____> annevk: well, that is about the consumer of the data read from the request, isn't it. in case of XHR one could have copied the data to elsewhere and use it even after timeout or abort
  826. # [20:16] <smaug____> isn't img similar
  827. # [20:16] <smaug____> the data is copied to some img library
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  829. # [20:17] <annevk> smaug____: I think the one thing we don't detect however is the connection dropping halfway through
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  832. # [20:18] <annevk> smaug____: "network error" can only happen before you receive a byte of the entity body
  833. # [20:19] <annevk> smaug____: so "network error" and "response" are orthogonal, but I suppose "response" could have an additional "error" hook for end-user abort and timeout and such which would be up to the consumer to do something useful with
  834. # [20:19] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
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  836. # [20:21] <annevk> That's still wrong. Hah. If you haven't gotten a response yet and you do have an end-user abort. It's not an upgrade of a response in that case.
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  838. # [20:27] <annevk> smaug____: wrote down description in https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=22387#c3
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  842. # [20:31] <annevk> Also filed https://github.com/slightlyoff/ServiceWorker/issues/101 to ensure models stay in sync.
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  844. # [20:34] <madcorp> hello
  845. # [20:36] <madcorp> I've a question about one meta extension. :)
  846. # [20:36] <madcorp> Who can help me?
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  854. # [20:52] <TabAtkins> Don't ask if you can ask, just ask.
  855. # [20:56] <ronaldmansveld> TabAtkins: is the current status of color-correction indeed ED? Cause that´s all I can find. It´s mentioned in both the css-color-correction module and the css-color module level 4.
  856. # [20:56] <ronaldmansveld> (Just so we can assign it the correct priority for documenting it on webplatform)
  857. # [20:56] <TabAtkins> Yes.
  858. # [20:56] <ronaldmansveld> OK, thanks!
  859. # [20:58] <Domenic_> Hixie_: thank you, that means a lot!
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  867. # [21:14] <zcorpan> TabAtkins: does it correctly mark up partial interfaces?
  868. # [21:14] <TabAtkins> Maybe! I dunno.
  869. # [21:15] <TabAtkins> By that I mean: it probably just does the simple thing that I just described, which'll link to the primary definition if it exists in Shepherd's db, and otherwise <dfn> it.
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  873. # [21:31] <odinho> < jgraham> But ironically when Swedes (and therefore quite possibly also Norwegians) say it, it sounds more like Oprah.
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  875. # [21:33] <odinho> Yeah. We normally drop the extra "e". But if you're very correct you say opEra. But most often it's jjust "opra".
  876. # [21:34] <odinho> And our "o" is very different.
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  928. # [23:17] <zcorpan> was there a conclusion about CSS.supports(undefined) ?
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  932. # [23:26] <TabAtkins> Don't think so, no.
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  936. # [23:33] <zcorpan> i have a feeling this has been discussed before and resulted in webidl defaulting to throwing...
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  941. # [23:36] <Domenic_> I think the semi-conclusion was that it should either be "undefined" or "", depending on whether you give it a default value of "" or not.
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  950. # Session Close: Wed Oct 16 00:00:00 2013

The end :)