/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2013-10-21 / end

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  71. # [05:25] <TabAtkins> Hixie_: Re: Map and Set and structured clone, spec plz
  72. # [05:26] <TabAtkins> GPHemsley: Regarding your pseudo-element question, no. There's been proposals, but implementors in general don't seem keen to do heavy box-tree rewriting like that.
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  99. # [08:19] <zcorpan> hmmm, i have no idea how to spec http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Oct/0508.html
  100. # [08:19] <zcorpan> presumably the same applies to 'scroll'
  101. # [08:21] <zcorpan> several documents can resize or scroll at the same time, too. what should scripts see when you resize a page with a 50% width iframe, and the 'resize' event has fired in the iframe but not on the outer page yet?
  102. # [08:22] <zcorpan> i guess the updated state in the iframe and the old state in the outer page?
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  131. # [09:52] <zcorpan> respec inception? http://darobin.github.io/html-ruby/snapshots/FPWD.html
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  136. # [10:15] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: that's the special "emphasis" feature that Robin added
  137. # [10:15] <MikeSmith> it causes everything to be repeated twice for extra emphasis
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  141. # [10:26] <zcorpan> nice
  142. # [10:26] <zcorpan> nice
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  144. # [10:36] <jgraham> heh
  145. # [10:36] <jgraham> heh
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  149. # [10:55] <zcorpan> matjas: "the second string uses two separate code points (U+00F1 LATIN SMALL LETTER N WITH TILDE and U+0303 COMBINING TILDE)" you mean U+006E
  150. # [10:55] <zcorpan> http://mathiasbynens.be/notes/javascript-unicode
  151. # [10:56] <zcorpan> doesn't NFC still have some stuff decomposed?
  152. # [10:57] <matjas> zcorpan: ah, copy-paste fail, thanks for the heads up
  153. # [10:57] <matjas> zcorpan: it leaves some stuff decomposed (see next example) but afaik never if there is a single-code point alternative
  154. # [10:58] <JakeA> Anyone know a url to a large resource/page that has an open CORS header?
  155. # [10:58] <zcorpan> right. *continues reading*
  156. # [10:59] <zcorpan> JakeA: how large?
  157. # [10:59] <JakeA> oh and also gzipped
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  159. # [10:59] <JakeA> urm, upwards of 1mb?
  160. # [10:59] <JakeA> I should just upload one, but I'm being lazy
  161. # [11:00] <JakeA> looking for something large enough to trigger multiple xhr progress events on most connections
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  163. # [11:01] <JakeA> actually, I'll just upload one
  164. # [11:01] <zcorpan> JakeA: validate the html spec with http://validator.nu and check 'show source'
  165. # [11:01] <zcorpan> dunno if it gzips though
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  167. # [11:04] <JakeA> zcorpan: It does! Excellent, thanks!
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  169. # [11:04] <JakeA> The html spec was the first thing I tried but no cors. validator.nu works fine, excellent.
  170. # [11:05] <zcorpan> i guess if you validate the html spec very often, hsivonen will be grumpy and block your IP or something :-P
  171. # [11:06] <JakeA> it's for a crbug ticket, so hopefully low traffic
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  175. # [11:20] <MikeSmith> I think http://html5.validator.nu/ handles load better and is more reliable than http://validator.nu
  176. # [11:20] <MikeSmith> fwiw
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  178. # [11:22] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: at this point the stance in your response to porneL about <picture> doesn't seem like a specific stance against <picture> but more of general argument against adding new elements if the same problem could be solved by adding an attribute instead
  179. # [11:23] <JakeA> MikeSmith: Cheers. Already closed the ticket so it's ok now.
  180. # [11:23] <MikeSmith> JakeA: k
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  182. # [11:24] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: yeah
  183. # [11:24] <michou> hello :)
  184. # [11:24] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: so far noboby except you has responded in substance to porneL's proposed revision to the <source>-selection algorithm
  185. # [11:24] <michou> any full-screen guru's around? :)
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  188. # [11:25] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: i noticed that <input list=""> where we introduced elements for an existing feature without losing the reuse
  189. # [11:26] <zcorpan> although having to maintain IDs is a drawback
  190. # [11:27] <yoav> zcorpan: So you see a possibility where adding <picture> won't involve adding a massive amount of tests?
  191. # [11:28] <zcorpan> yoav: see http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-respimg/2013Oct/0045.html
  192. # [11:29] <yoav> zcorpan: So the answer is no :)
  193. # [11:30] <yoav> zcorpan: That's what I thought, just wanted to make sure
  194. # [11:30] <zcorpan> right. porneL's proposal is a big improvement because it makes testing the selection algorithm itself on par with srcset, but that doesn't change the lack of reuse for all other things
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  196. # [11:32] <zcorpan> consider if we had done <inputwithdatalist> <option> </inputwithdatalist> instead of <input list=x> <datalist id=x> <option> </datalist> and what the consequence would be for <inputwithdatalist>'s RTL support, for instance
  197. # [11:32] * Joins: jpn (~jpn@pickles.tp.telepac.pt)
  198. # [11:33] <zcorpan> that doesn't mean that reusing an element is always the right answer. it needs to be considered on a case-by-case basis, i think
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  200. # [11:34] <zcorpan> maybe the existing element is so horrible that it's a good idea to have a clean break
  201. # [11:35] <yoav> zcorpan: A crazy thought - Would it be possible to alias picture to img, with the only difference is that picture is not a self closing element?
  202. # [11:35] <MikeSmith> I can understand the massive-amount-of-tests argument against <picture> but I have a hard time seeing that as something that should take priority over trying to come up with the least error-prone solution for authors if possible
  203. # [11:36] <yoav> That way we get all of img's functionality for free, than add source children
  204. # [11:36] <MikeSmith> I would argue that src-N and srcset too just move the massiveness of the problem off onto authors, in terms of the costs it places on how ever many hundreds of thousands of authors making more mistakes with it over how ever many years
  205. # [11:37] <MikeSmith> yoav: that aliasing doesn't sound so doable to me but who knows
  206. # [11:37] <yoav> MikeSmith: Probably not. As I said - crazy thought
  207. # [11:38] <Ms2ger> Eww
  208. # [11:38] <zcorpan> yoav: i think there can be code reuse, but most likely it would involve refactoring and refactoring most likely means new regressions
  209. # [11:38] <zcorpan> yoav: also, it wouldn't enable rich fallback
  210. # [11:38] <zcorpan> yoav: if you want rich fallback, you have to redesign the fallback mechanism
  211. # [11:41] <zcorpan> anyway, i don't really mean to shoot <picture> in the head, i just want to point out the costs so we can do a reasonable cost/benefit analysis
  212. # [11:41] <yoav> zcorpan: I'm mainly thinking of test reuse, rather than code reuse. Picture's implementation is not that scary. Rewriting half the platform's tests is.
  213. # [11:42] <yoav> zcorpan: I don't understand why aliasing won't enable rich fallback.
  214. # [11:42] <zcorpan> yoav: i assumed that if you did a real alias, then the fallback mechanism would use the alt="" attribute
  215. # [11:42] <yoav> zcorpan: I 100% agree with the need for a cost/benefit analysis
  216. # [11:43] <yoav> zcorpan: At first yes, but maybe it can be extended when the element is not self closing.
  217. # [11:43] <zcorpan> yoav: i don't understand what you have in mind for test reuse
  218. # [11:45] <yoav> zcorpan: I don't have a clear vision yet (a crazy though, as I said), but if picture is an alias of img, there may not be a need to test non-picture-specific functionality for it
  219. # [11:46] <yoav> zcorpan: Not sure that's true, just throwing it out there
  220. # [11:47] <yoav> the fact that it's not a real alias, but an extended one, may make it impossible
  221. # [11:48] <zcorpan> yoav: ok. i wouldn't trust that the aliasing doesn't have bugs, so my knee-jerk reaction is that we would need to test it anyway. but such testing doesn't need to block shipping the thing
  222. # [11:49] * jgraham doesn't quite understand what "alias" means in this discussion
  223. # [11:49] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: about https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23568 (<ul><script>) I implemented support for that at a long time ago. If it7s getting reported to somebody as an error I think it's probably because it hasn't been pulled to html5.validator.nu and validator.nu yet
  224. # [11:49] <jgraham> Is it "alias" in the sense that <image> is an alias of <img>?
  225. # [11:49] <zcorpan> jgraham: no
  226. # [11:49] <yoav> jgraham: Exactly
  227. # [11:49] <jgraham> heh
  228. # [11:49] <zcorpan> LOL
  229. # [11:49] <yoav> zcorpan: :)
  230. # [11:50] <yoav> That's what I was thinking when I said "aliasing"
  231. # [11:50] <zcorpan> the html parser creates an "img" element out of an <image> tag
  232. # [11:50] <zcorpan> surely you don't want <picture> to *become* img in the DOM?
  233. # [11:50] <Ms2ger> Now, how do you serialize an img element with children?
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  235. # [11:51] <zcorpan> (also, <image> doesn't have children)
  236. # [11:52] <jgraham> Even if you just meant that picture implements HTMLImageElement, it seems very messy
  237. # [11:52] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: if it's implemented, feel free to close the bug
  238. # [11:53] <MikeSmith> ok just did. I'll remind hsivonen to pull
  239. # [11:53] <yoav> zcorpan, Ms2ger: Yeah, probably a bad idea
  240. # [11:54] <yoav> I was just thinking that if <img> wasn't self-closing, it could have been extended by its children, without the need to add a new element for it
  241. # [11:55] <zcorpan> it is, and we can't change it. well, i guess technically we could change it by switching on an attribute, but that's messed up :-)
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  244. # [12:08] <zcorpan> another thing to keep in mind is that what we're after now is probably a stop-gap measure, the real long-term solution might be something like http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-respimg/2013Oct/0072.html
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  246. # [12:11] <jgraham> Pretty sure the long term solution is http://twistedspeedo.com/?p=1012
  247. # [12:14] <yoav> zcorpan: I agree file format is the long term solution (not sure about JP2K though), but the gap would be pretty long
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  249. # [12:22] <zcorpan> btw is anyone working on improving jpeg encoders these days?
  250. # [12:22] <Ms2ger> Don't think so
  251. # [12:25] <annevk> Kornel seems to be
  252. # [12:26] <zcorpan> https://github.com/pornel/jpeg-compressor ?
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  255. # [12:34] <yoav> zcorpan: Yeah
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  257. # [12:35] <zcorpan> nice. pornel++
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  260. # [12:45] <MikeSmith> haha 'Codename "Nether Poppleton"'
  261. # [12:45] <MikeSmith> pornel rocks mightily
  262. # [12:46] <MikeSmith> the Web needs more pornel
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  268. # [13:02] <annevk> matjas: I recommend reading up on grapheme clusters if you haven't already
  269. # [13:03] <annevk> matjas: http://www.unicode.org/reports/tr29/
  270. # [13:03] <annevk> matjas: if you want proper Unicode support in JavaScript, that's probably where we should be looking for inspiration
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  278. # [13:20] <jgraham> odinho: Holy fast review batman :)
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  286. # [13:37] <SimonSapin> matjas: http://mathiasbynens.be/notes/javascript-unicode "U+00F1 LATIN SMALL LETTER N WITH TILDE and U+0303 COMBINING TILDE" seems wrong
  287. # [13:38] <SimonSapin> matjas: the first should be U+004E
  288. # [13:39] <Ms2ger> SimonSapin, not 6E?
  289. # [13:39] <Ms2ger> http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20131021#l-149
  290. # [13:40] <SimonSapin> Ms2ger: right
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  324. # [15:02] <zcorpan> hmm, fixing https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23566 means i have to talk about what the `options` should be when there are no arguments
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  327. # [15:10] <zcorpan> would be nicer with webidl having [TreatUndefinedAs=false]
  328. # [15:10] <zcorpan> heycam: ^
  329. # [15:11] <heycam> zcorpan, can you not do that with an optional argument default value?
  330. # [15:11] <heycam> or is it not optional
  331. # [15:11] <zcorpan> default value is true
  332. # [15:11] <heycam> but explicit undefined needs to be false?
  333. # [15:11] <zcorpan> yeah
  334. # [15:12] <heycam> tbh I'd say "use any and define it in prose" :)
  335. # [15:12] <heycam> like anne [TreatUndefinedAs] is kind of ugly
  336. # [15:12] <heycam> I wonder if any current uses of it can be replaced by optional arguments with default values
  337. # [15:13] <heycam> s/anne/anne I think/
  338. # [15:13] <zcorpan> i agree it's ugly
  339. # [15:13] <zcorpan> but what i have now is also ugly
  340. # [15:13] <zcorpan> <li><p>If invoked with no arguments, let <var>top</var> be true and let <var>options</var> be a <code>ScrollOptions</code> dictionary with its members not
  341. # [15:13] <zcorpan> present or present with the default value, as appropriate.
  342. # [15:14] <zcorpan> how does any+prose help?
  343. # [15:14] * heycam looks at the spec to see the actual signature
  344. # [15:14] <zcorpan> i haven't committed yet
  345. # [15:15] <heycam> the current signature
  346. # [15:15] <zcorpan> void scrollIntoView();
  347. # [15:15] <zcorpan> void scrollIntoView(boolean top, optional ScrollOptions options);
  348. # [15:16] <heycam> so you add the no-arg version, so that it can have a different value for 'top'
  349. # [15:16] <heycam> effectively
  350. # [15:16] <zcorpan> right
  351. # [15:16] <heycam> but then when you describe in prose how to handle a no-arg invocation, you need to talk about a ScrollOptions that you make up
  352. # [15:16] <heycam> ok
  353. # [15:17] <heycam> what about just having:
  354. # [15:17] <heycam> void scrollIntoView(optional boolean top, optional ScrollOptions options);
  355. # [15:17] <heycam> and describe what to do when top is missing?
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  357. # [15:17] <heycam> probably results in overall less prose
  358. # [15:18] <zcorpan> that means explicit undefined is the same as missing
  359. # [15:18] <heycam> ah
  360. # [15:18] <heycam> then you use any
  361. # [15:18] <heycam> I guess :)
  362. # [15:18] <heycam> otherwise, no good suggestions atm
  363. # [15:19] <zcorpan> i don't understand the any suggestion
  364. # [15:21] <heycam> you make top 'any', then write in prose how to handle undefined, and in all other cases invoke ToBoolean
  365. # [15:21] <heycam> still, it's probably nicer to keep it as boolean
  366. # [15:22] <heycam> makes the IDL more informative, even if you do need to mess around with the ScrollOptions thing in prose
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  368. # [15:25] <zcorpan> any and optional?
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  370. # [15:26] <heycam> ah yeah
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  372. # [15:27] <zcorpan> anyway yeah i'll keep it as boolean
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  381. # [15:52] <annevk> whoa, heycam is in Europe again
  382. # [15:53] <annevk> zcorpan: can't you make omitted also false?
  383. # [15:54] <annevk> zcorpan: seems better if undefined and omitted keep the same semantics unless it's a really special situation
  384. # [15:57] <heycam> annevk, enjoying the paris office this week
  385. # [15:57] <annevk> was thinking you would
  386. # [15:57] <annevk> what has IDL to do with rendering again? ;p
  387. # [15:58] <zcorpan> annevk: changing how scrollIntoView() works seems to have a much bigger impact than changing how scrollIntoView(undefined) works
  388. # [15:59] <annevk> zcorpan: doesn't scrollIntoView() default to false in WebKit atm?
  389. # [15:59] * Quits: jwalden (~waldo@217.41.231.163) (Quit: back shortly)
  390. # [15:59] * heycam hides
  391. # [15:59] <darobin> that's all a lie annevk
  392. # [16:00] <darobin> if heycam were in Paris, he'd wave or something, you know
  393. # [16:00] <zcorpan> annevk: no
  394. # [16:00] <zcorpan> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/2572
  395. # [16:01] <zcorpan> undefined: http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/2573
  396. # [16:01] * heycam waves, and assumes darobin must have hacked into all the CC cameras in the city to be able to see it
  397. # [16:02] * darobin waves at the computer, assumes some form of transmission
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  399. # [16:03] <annevk> fucking merge conflicts
  400. # [16:03] * annevk blames Ms2ger
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  418. # [16:45] <SimonSapin> darobin: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/spec-prod/2013OctDec/0029.html +1
  419. # [16:45] <SimonSapin> darobin: how do we start moving towards this?
  420. # [16:45] <darobin> SimonSapin: a small first step is to say +1 on the list too so that it is seen to be supported
  421. # [16:46] <darobin> beyond that, I want to confer with people who work on publication inside the Team to see if we can get this off the ground relatively quickly
  422. # [16:46] <SimonSapin> cool
  423. # [16:46] <darobin> it in fact does not really require any change to the Process as far as I can tell
  424. # [16:46] <darobin> most importantly, it matches the needs of the patent policy, which is a nightmare to change
  425. # [16:47] <darobin> glad you like it :)
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  430. # [16:55] <jgraham> Romantic interests? Since we don't have any good way to tell who any given person might be *interested* in romantically, that suggests we have to spam the entire planet. Maybe it would just be easier to get non-conformance to pubrules brought up at the UN?
  431. # [16:55] <darobin> no, we just place editors under a requirement to disclose romantic interests
  432. # [16:56] <jgraham> Hmm, suddenly I thik we won't have any editors under your plan :)
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  434. # [16:56] <darobin> then anyone they sleep with not previously registered gets informed that, clearly, they were just a one-night-fling due to excess alcohol consumption
  435. # [16:56] <darobin> I don't mind disclosing my romantic interest :)
  436. # [16:57] <jgraham> Oh, if "interest" just means "have slept with", that makes things easier
  437. # [16:57] <darobin> we're going to need a standard for that
  438. # [16:58] <jgraham> If "interest" means "are interested in", it could cause all sorts of strife
  439. # [16:58] <darobin> precisely
  440. # [16:58] <darobin> wait
  441. # [16:58] <darobin> standards aren't about creating strife?
  442. # [16:58] <jgraham> I think that's just a secondary effect
  443. # [16:59] <darobin> I have a lot of a empirical evidence showing that it's the primary effect :)
  444. # [16:59] <jgraham> AIUI standards are mostly about propping up Hollywood
  445. # [16:59] <darobin> and that is different from deliberately creating strife in which ways exactly?
  446. # [17:01] <jgraham> Well I guess the point of propping up business models is to make money for people in those businesses. This leads to societial inequality between those who have money and those who don't. Which causes strife and, if left unchecked, eventual revolution
  447. # [17:01] <jgraham> So standards are all about revolution and that's why there's so many French people involved
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  452. # [17:07] <darobin> heh
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  474. # [17:48] <annevk> kinda wonderful how much text from XMLHttpRequest is now obsolete
  475. # [17:48] <annevk> kinda scary how much will regress here
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  483. # [18:00] <Hixie_> annevk: Map and Set structured clone -- should I do it, or is JS gonna have a definition soon?
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  485. # [18:01] <annevk> Hixie_: since it isn't much effort, might as well do it in HTML for now
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  488. # [18:01] <Hixie_> k
  489. # [18:01] <annevk> Hixie_: structured clones are not going to make it into ES6 I think, multiple globals aren't either by the looks of it :/
  490. # [18:02] <Hixie_> what does "ES6" mean? 2013?
  491. # [18:02] <annevk> "stable draft" end-of-2013, "standard" end-of-2014
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  494. # [18:03] <Hixie_> wow, no new JS features between end of 2013 and end of 2014?
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  497. # [18:03] <annevk> Hixie_: well since we have ES6 features now, we'll have ES7 features such as Object.observe() sooner than ES7
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  499. # [18:04] <Hixie_> wait, Object.observe() isn't "stable"?
  500. # [18:04] <Hixie_> i thought people were implementing that already
  501. # [18:04] <annevk> Hixie_: in addition, TC39 decided to move to a more iterative process for individual features so they can be considered done before the overall spec is "done"
  502. # [18:04] <annevk> Hixie_: yeah, but not shipping
  503. # [18:04] <Hixie_> why not shipping?
  504. # [18:04] <Hixie_> only one more step to a living standard...
  505. # [18:05] <annevk> Hixie_: so yeah, the new iterative thing will allow shipping by declaring consensus sooner than "standard"
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  507. # [18:05] <annevk> Hixie_: and indeed, it's more or less the same, with some kind of committee approval steps in between, which seem awkward, but given the way JavaScript is developed I don't immediately see a better way
  508. # [18:05] <Hixie_> the difference between "consensus" and "standard" is what again? :-)
  509. # [18:06] <Hixie_> on another note, what's that CSS property that defines how replaced content gets sized
  510. # [18:06] <annevk> Hixie_: "standard" is what's Ecma-approved
  511. # [18:06] <Hixie_> i thought it was image-fit, but seems not
  512. # [18:06] <annevk> Hixie_: "consensus" is TC39-approved
  513. # [18:06] <Hixie_> annevk: what's the word they use for "browser shipped interoperably"?
  514. # [18:06] <annevk> Hixie_: "legacy" :p
  515. # [18:06] <Hixie_> (ah, object-fit)
  516. # [18:07] <annevk> (I'm not sure. They consider it de facto and something they need to define without breaking things.)
  517. # [18:07] <Hixie_> annevk: ok so when will structured clone in JS be "legacy"? :-)
  518. # [18:08] <annevk> Ah, so the other thing is that they like the platform <-> language separation a bit too much. So saying workers and such are part of their world can be a hard sell depending on who you talk to. Though most implementers people are on board.
  519. # [18:08] <jgraham> Hixie_: Once browsers ship it interoperably :)
  520. # [18:08] <annevk> implementer people*
  521. # [18:09] <Hixie_> jgraham: well, i meant when will they have a spec that describes reality that i can defer to
  522. # [18:09] <Hixie_> but it sounds like "not soon", so, nevermind
  523. # [18:09] <jgraham> There are two states a) future things that don't ship yet and b) distasteful legacy
  524. # [18:09] * Hixie_ realises he still hasn't made HTML properly integrate with css-images and the "CSS⇋Object Negotiation" protocol
  525. # [18:09] <Hixie_> jgraham: sounds right
  526. # [18:11] <Hixie_> hm, there's no default default object size, huh
  527. # [18:12] <Hixie_> ok, browsers are off in lala land again.
  528. # [18:12] <Hixie_> default size for svg seems to be "100% of container"
  529. # [18:14] <Hixie_> TabAtkins: ping (how do i integrate with css-images for <img> containing svg without intrinsic dimensions but with an intrinsic ratio? it looks like i need to give you some sort of "fit the containing block width" information as the default object size for <img>, or something)
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  531. # [18:15] <gsnedders> So what's the best way to deal with a bug that makes Fennac unusable for me on my tablet, but I can't quite reproducably hit it?
  532. # [18:16] <Hixie_> gsnedders: keep trying to reproduce it? :-)
  533. # [18:17] <Hixie_> this on android?
  534. # [18:17] <gsnedders> Yeah.
  535. # [18:17] <Hixie_> take a debug log when it happens, maybe that might help
  536. # [18:17] <gsnedders> Often doesn't respond to input for several seconds.
  537. # [18:17] <Hixie_> TabAtkins: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23581
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  546. # [18:26] <Domenic_> Hixie_: annevk: one thing to keep in mind is that there's a difference between "consensus on a strawman" and "we nailed down all the details in spec language." Part of the proposed ES7 process is to get formal spec text earlier to get all the interoperability edge cases nailed out.
  547. # [18:27] <Hixie_> you can't nail down all the details until after at least one, probably several, implementations have shipped.
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  549. # [18:27] <Hixie_> but certainly formal text should be early in the process
  550. # [18:28] <Hixie_> because trying to describe something formally is step one in trying to figure out if the proposal makes any sense
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  552. # [18:30] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
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  554. # [18:34] <Domenic_> Does anyone know why Chrome now returns HTMLElement for document.createElement('image')? Seems weird to intentionally diverge JS API and the HTML parser? http://src.chromium.org/viewvc/blink?view=revision&revision=159920
  555. # [18:34] <Domenic_> I guess there are already divergences (e.g. createElement throwing for certain element names), but, what motivated this?
  556. # [18:35] <Hixie_> "now"? didn't it always/
  557. # [18:35] <Hixie_> ?
  558. # [18:35] <Hixie_> it should be HTMLUnknownElement, I _think_
  559. # [18:35] <Hixie_> for 'image' in createElement
  560. # [18:35] <Hixie_> per the spec
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  563. # [18:36] <annevk> Domenic_: the parser creates an element for a namespace, name, and a set of attributes
  564. # [18:37] <annevk> Domenic_: having the special case in "creates an element" seems weird
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  566. # [18:37] <Domenic_> annevk: not sure I understand... I am trying to see why the parser doesn't just do document.createElementNS(parsedName, parsedNS)
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  569. # [18:39] <annevk> Domenic_: well for one, those are distinct
  570. # [18:39] <annevk> Domenic_: but e.g. otherwise the pre-scanner would miss out on this alias
  571. # [18:40] <Domenic_> hmm this seems to involve more things than i understand. i think i will attempt to retreat from this line of questioning and come back later when I learn more.
  572. # [18:41] <Hixie_> Domenic_: it does, except for <image> and <isindex> and a few other weird cases
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  574. # [18:41] <Domenic_> Hixie_: <isindex> is weird, I can understand weird stuff being necessary. What's the deal with <image>?
  575. # [18:42] <Hixie_> <image> has to be treated like <img> because 5 years ago, 0.2% of pages used <image> and expected it to work like <img>.
  576. # [18:42] <Domenic_> right, but, why is the parser different from createElement?
  577. # [18:42] <Domenic_> Hmm maybe createElement is trying to be sane but the parser can't afford to?
  578. # [18:43] <Hixie_> right
  579. # [18:43] <Domenic_> Got it, thanks
  580. # [18:43] <Hixie_> we try to limit the scope of quirks
  581. # [18:44] <annevk> createElement("x*") -> throws
  582. # [18:44] <annevk> <x*> -> works
  583. # [18:45] <Domenic_> right, is that the same principle, that createElement can afford to enforce rules, but the parser cannot?
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  586. # [18:47] <annevk> Hah, I don't really know who designed these APIs, but I doubt much of principles were involved we would use today.
  587. # [18:47] <Domenic_> fair :P
  588. # [18:47] <Domenic_> my interest is that in jsdom we weren't able to use the actual DOM elements to build the DOM tree because of situations like this
  589. # [18:47] <Domenic_> we needed to provide a "privileged" createElement that the parser could use
  590. # [18:47] <Domenic_> which was kind of sad
  591. # [18:48] <annevk> Restrictions in createElement() are influenced by XML. And in a weird way. createElement() follows Name whereas createElementNS() follows NCName. Although both create namespaced elements today...
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  593. # [18:49] <Domenic_> Yeah, I remember following those links... fun times.
  594. # [18:49] <jgraham> Actually the parser can never create an element named "image" in the HTML namespace, so that isn't an example of "createElement can't, parser can"
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  598. # [18:51] <annevk> Even in <template>!
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  600. # [18:52] <Domenic_> jgraham: good point. I confused myself, and was trying to think of createElement('tagname') as parseHTML('<tagname>'). But it's better to think of parseHTML as using createElement, modulo XML-influenced restrictions.
  601. # [18:54] <annevk> The parser cannot really use createElement() directly anyway. It wants something else for saner mutation records.
  602. # [18:54] * gaba_ is now known as gaba
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  604. # [18:54] <Domenic_> ah interesting
  605. # [18:54] <annevk> Not entirely sure what, prolly something close to what browsers have internally, although that might not be ideal either.
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  607. # [18:55] <annevk> And I believe currently some stuff in the HTML specification depends on elements being created having their relevant attributes set straight away.
  608. # [18:55] <annevk> So createElement() does not work for that either.
  609. # [18:59] <Hixie_> yup
  610. # [18:59] <Hixie_> Domenic_: all these features were designed by different people with different priorities and philosophies
  611. # [19:00] <Hixie_> some of which were things like "my boss is breathing down my neck about this other property needing this feature before friday so he can go golfing"
  612. # [19:00] <Hixie_> (property as in, web site owned by the vendor's company)
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  627. # [19:22] <TabAtkins> Hixie_: Just pass the ratio as the intrinsic dimensions. (The dimensions are width/height/ratio.) And then, yes, set up the default image size as the size of the <img>.
  628. # [19:22] <Hixie_> "set up the default image size as the size of the <img>"?
  629. # [19:22] <Hixie_> how do you mean?
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  631. # [19:25] <TabAtkins> When you're invoking the sizing algorithm, say that the default image size is the dimensions of the <img>.
  632. # [19:30] <Hixie_> the img's dimensions are what i'm trying to figure out
  633. # [19:30] <Hixie_> i don't follow
  634. # [19:30] <Hixie_> also i don't think i call the algorithm, i think that's css layout that does that
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  643. # [19:41] <annevk> TabAtkins: it seems all HTML can give here is the height and width attributes, which already map to CSS
  644. # [19:42] <annevk> And I guess if HTML does the image decoder negotiation it could give information from that too...
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  649. # [19:50] <TabAtkins> annevk: Ah, right, yeah.
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  652. # [19:54] <miketaylr> back
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  661. # [20:13] <TabAtkins> Hixie_: Ah, if you're trying to size the <img> itself, then CSS2.1 describes how to do it. Alan just invoked that algorithm yesterday, let me go look up the incantation.
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  668. # [20:22] <zcorpan_> hmm, the trackpad on my mac just went crazy. it's super sensitive and inverted in both directions
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  674. # [20:27] <gsnedders> Hmm, so warranty replacement for my rucksack will only ship to US. Is there going to be any sane way to get that here without it costing more than the bag is worth…
  675. # [20:28] <gsnedders> Probably best bet is just to take a slightly large suitcase when I next go and take it that way…
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  690. # [20:42] <zcorpan_> ah, trackpad back to normal. phew.
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  701. # [21:04] <zcorpan_> MikeSmith: does http://critic.hoppipolla.co.uk/r/351 support `static interface ...` ?
  702. # [21:05] <jgraham> zcorpan_: OK, the jgraham/python_review_2 branch now has all the track tests up to 010.html pass in opera
  703. # [21:05] <zcorpan_> jgraham: great
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  710. # [21:17] <zcorpan_> MikeSmith: hmm, nevermind, seems like there's no static interface thing. confused it with something else
  711. # [21:18] <zcorpan_> [Unforgeable]
  712. # [21:19] <Ms2ger> jgraham, I'll try to look at the review a bit tomorrow
  713. # [21:19] * Krinkle|detached is now known as Krinkle
  714. # [21:22] <jgraham> Ms2ger: Awesome, thanks
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  717. # [21:25] <astearns> TabAtkins: is this the incantation you're looking for? http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/visudet.html#inline-replaced-width
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  721. # [21:32] <Ms2ger> 2.1? Probably not
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  723. # [21:35] <zcorpan_> jgraham: when i submit changes in critic, is there a way to make it go back to the review instead of going to the default page?
  724. # [21:36] <zcorpan_> 0.02 % done, that's encouraging :-)
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  734. # [22:02] <TabAtkins> astearns: Yeah, that's it.
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  741. # [22:12] <zcorpan> jgraham: was there some change other than https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/commit/b1486aa82b4174df577bb00f1796fe4a5bc5bffc ?
  742. # [22:12] <zcorpan> (and the comma fixup)
  743. # [22:13] <jgraham> zcorpan: I thpught it did go back to the review, but I might have imagined that
  744. # [22:13] <jgraham> In any case the answer is generically "ask jl"
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  746. # [22:14] <jgraham> zcorpan: Those and replaicing cors-tester.php with cors-tester.py (and all the substitutions that implies)
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  748. # [22:16] <zcorpan> jgraham: yeah i meant between the state of cors-tester.py last i looked at it and the latest fixup commit
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  751. # [22:19] <jgraham> Right, those are the only changes in that case
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  754. # [22:21] <zcorpan> ok
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  765. # [22:44] <Hixie_> TabAtkins: that ends with "then the used value of 'width' is undefined in CSS 2.1." for the case i care about :-P
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  767. # [22:46] <Hixie_> TabAtkins: isn't this what css-images is defining?
  768. # [22:47] <zcorpan> jgraham: looks like i get the same results as on t now. excellent!
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  770. # [22:53] <Hixie_> bugzilla needs a severity field value that's like "enhancement" but means "removal of feature"
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  772. # [22:54] <TabAtkins> Hixie_: Yaaaayyy
  773. # [22:55] <jgraham> zcorpan: Oh!
  774. # [22:55] <TabAtkins> Hixie_: Man, I dunno. fantasai convinced me that the 2.1 handling of replaced elements wasn't actually quite compatible with the Image Sizing Algorithm, and making them compatible wouldn't be worth it.
  775. # [22:55] <TabAtkins> But I've paged that argument out of my head for a while.
  776. # [22:56] <Hixie_> TabAtkins: someone filed a bug on me saying this case wasn't well-defined... should I reasssign it to you for now? (I'm happy to have it assigned to me, I just don't know what I should say to fix it.)
  777. # [22:57] <jgraham> Hixie_: BTW, how paged in do you have the session history stuff? It is being designed for servo at the moment and bholley was threatening to grill you on it
  778. # [22:58] <jgraham> So take this as advance warning ;)
  779. # [22:58] <Hixie_> hehe
  780. # [22:58] <Hixie_> not particularly paged in, but it's not as hard to page in as the parser :-)
  781. # [22:59] <jgraham> I find it much harder :)
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  783. # [23:03] <TabAtkins> Yeah, assign it to me
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  785. # [23:03] <Hixie_> k
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  794. # [23:11] <Hixie_> TabAtkins: done - https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23581
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  801. # [23:18] <zcorpan> jgraham: no support for wss: ?
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  812. # [23:39] <zcorpan> wow https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23587
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  814. # [23:40] <zcorpan> it took a few years, but the planets did line up
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  816. # [23:42] <jgraham> zcorpan: *s is hard because certificates
  817. # [23:42] <zcorpan> jgraham: but https works?
  818. # [23:42] <jgraham> no
  819. # [23:42] <zcorpan> oh
  820. # [23:42] <zcorpan> ok
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  825. # [23:43] <jgraham> For Mozilla infrastructure we will probably install a CA fir the duration of the tests (that's how Mochitest works)
  826. # [23:44] <jgraham> Opera/Google/Microsoft/Apple could do something similar on their test infrastructure
  827. # [23:44] <jgraham> For people running the tests at home I'm not sure what we will do
  828. # [23:45] <Hixie_> abarth: ping https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20701
  829. # [23:45] <zcorpan> jgraham: we can put in job openings
  830. # [23:47] <Hixie_> zcorpan: got any suggestions for that <script> bug?
  831. # [23:47] <jgraham> Well "at home" in this case really includes any situation where you don't run a browser-specific script to launch the tests
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  833. # [23:49] <zcorpan> Hixie_: i think the recommendation should be to escape the < in <!-- and <script
  834. # [23:50] <Hixie_> yeah that was my conclusion too
  835. # [23:50] <Hixie_> or the ! and the s
  836. # [23:50] <Hixie_> as in <\!-- and <\script
  837. # [23:50] <zcorpan> right
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  839. # [23:50] <zcorpan> and </script of course
  840. # [23:50] <Hixie_> yeah, always <\/script
  841. # [23:51] <Hixie_> oh course the _real_ answer is "don't do string substitution into your script"
  842. # [23:51] <Hixie_> when will people learn
  843. # [23:54] <zcorpan> Hixie_: also say that authors can ignore the script content model restrictions and instead avoid wrapping <!-- --> and properly escaping
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  846. # [23:56] <zcorpan> since the restrictions are impossible to understand
  847. # [23:56] <Hixie_> oh that's an idea. Just have in that section some text that says that the easiest way to avoid this is to just escape all <!-- and <script> bits?
  848. # [23:58] <zcorpan> yeah
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  850. # [23:58] <zcorpan> wonder if it's a good idea to make validators complain about <!-- always
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  853. # [23:59] <zcorpan> it's pretty common, but OTOH it's a very legacy practice, and it's not without issues
  854. # [23:59] <Hixie_> i'd be fine with doing so, but hsivonen and MikeSmith are reluctant to warn on "harmless" stuff
  855. # Session Close: Tue Oct 22 00:00:00 2013

The end :)