/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2013-10-22 / end

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1. # Session Start: Tue Oct 22 00:00:00 2013
2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
3. # [00:00] <Hixie_> which i can understand
4. # [00:00] <Hixie_> since it makes the validator less likely to be used, arguably
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6. # [00:01] <zcorpan> yeah
7. # [00:02] <zcorpan> i guess it's harmless until you enter double escaped state
8. # [00:03] <zcorpan> hsivonen: MikeSmith: WDYT?
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24. # [00:22] <Hixie_> sweet kittens, i got a bunch of parse errors trying to write the parser section on avoiding parser errors.
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30. # [00:33] <annevk-cloud> oh man that security bug
31. # [00:33] <annevk-cloud> one day
32. # [00:34] <Hixie_> you think that's bad
33. # [00:34] <Hixie_> try this one: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23366
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117. # [05:11] <AndroUser> Hi
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170. # [07:38] <MikeSmith> Hixie_: offhand it doesn't seem to me like most validator users would be happier if we always emitted messages about <!--
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207. # [09:12] <MikeSmith> Hixie_: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23587 is one of those bugs that really should have been filed against the WHATWG spec
208. # [09:13] <MikeSmith> but I'm sure I'll get complaints if I move it. or plh will get a complaint about me moving it
209. # [09:14] <MikeSmith> I hope we can get back to having one place for people to file HTML spec bugs, and then we can triage them however from there
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228. # [10:31] <zcorpan> hmm, multipage version is behind? i don't see the note in #restrictions-for-contents-of-script-elements
229. # [10:34] <zcorpan> Hixie_: so actually the example given doesn't violate the restrictions
230. # [10:35] <zcorpan> Hixie_: v.nu implements the restrictions and gives no error for the <!-- despite appearances, this is actually part of the script still! --> example
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232. # [10:43] <zcorpan> parse error when entering double escaped seems like the missing piece
233. # [10:46] <zcorpan> Hixie_: looks like steve cloned the bug https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23590
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238. # [11:17] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: are you proposing that the validator emit a warning any time it sees <!-- in script?
239. # [11:17] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: no
240. # [11:17] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: an error when seeing <!-- <script
241. # [11:18] <MikeSmith> ok
242. # [11:19] <zcorpan> the validator already emits an error for <script><!--</script>, but <script><!--<script></script>... is more problematic in a world with only html5 parsers
243. # [11:19] <zcorpan> whereas the former is problematic in legacy parsers
244. # [11:19] <MikeSmith> I see
245. # [11:21] <zcorpan> and people who do <script><!-- document.write('<script><'+'/script>') --></script> deserve an error
246. # [11:21] <Ms2ger> People who do document.write deserve one ;)
247. # [11:21] <zcorpan> does any browser whine about document.write in devtools?
248. # [11:22] * Joins: annevk (~annevk@207.218.72.65)
249. # [11:23] <SimonSapin> annevk-cloud: http://url.spec.whatwg.org/#writing what does "Writing" mean? Is it different from Serializing?
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252. # [11:25] <zcorpan> heh, PDF tojan horse <http://www.w3.org/mid/FADAB8BA-B90A-49F0-85B1-535BC13D2E44@free.fr>
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254. # [11:28] <SimonSapin> I suppose this is the concern? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jpeg2000#Legal_issues
255. # [11:28] <annevk> SimonSapin: yes
256. # [11:30] <SimonSapin> annevk: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20131022#l-249
257. # [11:31] <annevk> SimonSapin: recursion?
258. # [11:32] <SimonSapin> annevk: was "yes" about URL or JPEG2000?
259. # [11:32] <annevk> SimonSapin: URL
260. # [11:33] <SimonSapin> so, yes it is different. What does it mean?
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262. # [11:34] <annevk> Serializing is often much more constrained. E.g. you can write CSS in many ways, but a CSS serializer is required to follow certain algorithms because otherwise browsers have differences that developers will trip over.
263. # [11:35] <SimonSapin> so writing is what authors write, what the parser supports?
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265. # [11:41] <annevk> SimonSapin: yes
266. # [11:44] <MikeSmith> heh "If you said something incorrect and I failed to correct you, I apologize and promise to be more vigilant in the future." http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-audio/2013OctDec/0145.html from roc
267. # [11:46] <jgraham> SimonSapin: In general there are three different sets each with a subset relation to the preceeding one; the set of things that the parser supports, the set of things authors are permitted to write and the set of things that the serializer can emit.
268. # [11:47] <SimonSapin> http://url.spec.whatwg.org/#concept-parsed-url Just like scheme data is not used in relative schemes, should username, password, host, port and path not be be used in non-relative schemes? I’m trying to come up with a model/data structure for parsed URLs
269. # [11:47] <SimonSapin> jgraham: ok, makes sense
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271. # [11:49] <jgraham> SimonSapin: A better type structure for URLs sounds good
272. # [11:50] <SimonSapin> I have this so far based on #writing, but #concept-parsed-url seems to disagree: https://pastebin.mozilla.org/3310970
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274. # [11:54] <Ms2ger> MikeSmith, that's a misquote, should end "in the future [...]."
275. # [11:54] <annevk> SimonSapin: don't base the model on #writing
276. # [11:55] <annevk> SimonSapin: a parsed URL is always absolute
277. # [11:55] <annevk> SimonSapin: so either "scheme" and "scheme data" or "scheme", "username", etc.
278. # [11:55] <annevk> SimonSapin: oh, both also have "query" and "fragment"
279. # [11:56] <SimonSapin> yes, that’s what I’m trying to encode in the type system
280. # [11:56] <jgraham> annevk: Look at the pastebin
281. # [11:56] <annevk> jgraham: I did
282. # [11:56] <jgraham> YOu should like this stuff because it forces you to define the model very carefully :)
283. # [11:56] <SimonSapin> all parsed URLs have a scheme but some have a "relative scheme", ie. can be used as a base for relative URLs
284. # [11:56] <annevk> Yes, the model is not yet defined
285. # [11:57] <annevk> Because it's still a bit unclear to me how fragments work, because they're different all over :/
286. # [11:57] <SimonSapin> Isn’t fragment just an optional string?
287. # [11:57] <SimonSapin> in the model
288. # [11:57] <jgraham> Does that matter here?
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290. # [11:58] <annevk> jgraham: kinda, are the individual bits bytes or code points
291. # [11:58] <jgraham> Well, OK in that case it's not clear if it should be ~str or ~[u8]
292. # [11:59] <jgraham> Or however one represents bytes
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295. # [11:59] <jgraham> (pretending that ~str was code points)
296. # [11:59] <jgraham> But that doesn't seem very important for the rest of SimonSapin's work
297. # [11:59] <annevk> SimonSapin: userinfo should prolly not be a distinct struct
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299. # [12:00] <jgraham> annevk: Can you have a password with no username?
300. # [12:00] <SimonSapin> annevk: the struct is just a detail to encode the Option structure, ie. password can only exist with an username
301. # [12:00] <jgraham> I think that's what the seperateness there encodes
302. # [12:01] <jgraham> Right
303. # [12:01] <SimonSapin> every other type here is an implementation detail of ParsedURL
304. # [12:01] <annevk> So userinfo is not actually exposed?
305. # [12:02] <annevk> I'm not sure I understand how this works
306. # [12:02] <jgraham> annevk: It's part of the data structure, but you wouldn't have a .userinfo visible to script or anything
307. # [12:03] <annevk> Is that the same for scheme_and_data?
308. # [12:04] <jgraham> Yeah, so presumably SimonSapin will implement some accessors that will return the script-visible parts
309. # [12:04] <jgraham> But this setup forces other internal code to follow the rules
310. # [12:07] <SimonSapin> annevk: exposed, you mean to JS?
311. # [12:07] <SimonSapin> Rust data structures do not have to map exactly to JS bindings
312. # [12:08] <SimonSapin> here I tried to encode some constraints in the type system (such as password can only be set with a username)
313. # [12:08] <SimonSapin> but maybe it’s fine not to do that and just have the parser never return such objects
314. # [12:08] <SimonSapin> and have a "flatter" data structure
315. # [12:08] <annevk> SimonSapin: I just mean in Rust
316. # [12:08] <annevk> SimonSapin: I understand you can expose whatever in JS
317. # [12:09] <SimonSapin> with this API yes, users of the Rust lib have to go through UserInfo to get the username/password
318. # [12:10] <SimonSapin> annevk: would you rather have a simpler data structure with some constraints not enforced?
319. # [12:10] <annevk> SimonSapin: I'm not sure what's best for Rust
320. # [12:12] <annevk> I expected something flatter. I'll note that only the parser can directly operate on the data structure. Any API for manipulating the data structure will need to do so indirectly as conversions and such have to be made.
321. # [12:16] <jgraham> FWIW I had a flatter data structure and I think this is better :)
322. # [12:18] <SimonSapin> annevk: do you mean the fields should not be accessed directly but through getters and setters?
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324. # [12:19] <annevk> SimonSapin: for reading it might be okay, for manipulating only if you know what you're doing
325. # [12:20] <annevk> SimonSapin: basically the parser guarantees certain things, being able to put in ".." as one of the entries of URL's path would be bad
326. # [12:22] <jgraham> Can't encode that in Rust's type system really :)
327. # [12:22] <gsnedders> Bah, just need a better type system!
328. # [12:22] <jgraham> (so I imagine that yes you would have getters and setters in the external API)
329. # [12:23] <jgraham> gsnedders: Is it nice up there in the ivory tower? :)
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331. # [12:30] <gsnedders> jgraham: Well, compilation is undecidable, but it's fine!
332. # [12:30] <SimonSapin> does any browser still support gopher?
333. # [12:31] <jgraham> SimonSapin: Pretty sure that they don't since Gecko removed support
334. # [12:31] <gsnedders> Opera/Linux?
335. # [12:32] <gsnedders> Oh, no.
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337. # [12:32] <gsnedders> SimonSapin: I guess lynx doesn't count? :P
338. # [12:32] <SimonSapin> it’s probably harmless to have it in the URL parser
339. # [12:34] <jgraham> gsnedders: As much as I wanted to say "Opera had it last", no :)
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341. # [12:35] <annevk> SimonSapin: yeah, dunno, it was in WebKit
342. # [12:35] <annevk> SimonSapin: support for the scheme
343. # [12:36] * Quits: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@vpna250.ugent.be) (Quit: bbl)
344. # [12:36] <jgraham> According to Wikipedia, of the WebKit browsers, only OmniWeb supports it by default
345. # [12:36] <jgraham> Fx has an addon
346. # [12:36] * Quits: plutoniix (~plutoniix@210.213.57.70) (Quit: จรลี จรลา)
347. # [12:36] <jgraham> Everything else seems to be small browsers that were using old version of gecko
348. # [12:36] <jgraham> and non-graphical browsers
349. # [12:41] <annevk> In terms of parsing
350. # [12:45] <foolip> annevk, any particular reason you think arv is interested in my UseCounter?
351. # [12:45] <annevk> foolip, he likes killing stuff :-)
352. # [12:46] <foolip> it is a joy to send red diffs to review
353. # [12:46] <foolip> BTW, I've canceled my TPAC trip, so don't expect to see me there
354. # [12:46] <jgraham> :(
355. # [12:47] <foolip> too much time away from home in November otherwise, with two other conferences (FOMS and Opera-internal)
356. # [12:47] <foolip> jgraham, where do you live now?
357. # [12:48] <foolip> GPS coordinates for my killdrones, plz
358. # [12:48] <jgraham> foolip: London, approximately.
359. # [12:48] <foolip> OK, will make a big sweep then :)
360. # [12:48] * jgraham points the killdrones to annevk's house
361. # [12:48] <annevk> hah, joke's on you, my house is not in London
362. # [12:49] <foolip> jgraham, what kind of stuff are you doing at Mozilla?
363. # [12:49] <annevk> mainly pestering me
364. # [12:49] <foolip> annevk, but you still work from the Netherlands, right?
365. # [12:49] <annevk> foolip: no I'm in London
366. # [12:49] <foolip> annevk, oh, I had no idea
367. # [12:49] <jgraham> Ah, good I was worried that you had a hologram or something
368. # [12:50] <foolip> then I should force both of you to buy me English cider if I visit London
369. # [12:50] <annevk> together we might have enough money
370. # [12:50] <gsnedders> But you're Swedish, you'll complain it's not sweet.
371. # [12:50] <foolip> gsnedders, I really won't, I enjoy it very much :)
372. # [12:50] <annevk> I don't think I ever had cider here
373. # [12:51] <jgraham> foolip: I am mostly working on the W3C web-platform-tests stuff, with the gols of getting Mozill running the tests on each push and writing tests instead of proprietary tests
374. # [12:51] <wilhelm> \o/
375. # [12:52] <foolip> jgraham, that would be nice for Chromium as well, I've been writing tests using testharness.js but don't have a way to keep them in sync if I should submit them to the W3C :(
376. # [12:52] <foolip> (I think, I haven't actually asked anyone.)
377. # [12:52] <gsnedders> Wasn't someone working on that?
378. # [12:52] <jgraham> foolip: Yeah, that side of it is a huge problem
379. # [12:52] <jgraham> gsnedders: Dirk Pranke
380. # [12:52] <gsnedders> jgraham: Right, that's the name.
381. # [12:52] <foolip> is he in this channel?
382. # [12:52] <jgraham> I don't think so
383. # [12:52] <gsnedders> jgraham: I was trying to find something like Derk or Deirk :P
384. # [12:53] <jgraham> I think bratell spoke to him or heard a talk from him at BlinkOn so he (bratell) might know more
385. # [12:53] <annevk> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aAZR7OUhFDU o_O
386. # [12:53] <foolip> I met him at BlinkOn as well, but didn't ask about testing
387. # [12:53] <gsnedders> He's in #blink at times, too
388. # [12:54] <foolip> well, isn't this a nice little Opera chat room :)
389. # [12:55] <jgraham> annevk: That was satire, right?
390. # [12:55] <annevk> jgraham: I'm not sure, JakeA?
391. # [12:55] <jgraham> I got as far as the intro and the slightly creepy host
392. # [12:56] <JakeA> no
393. # [12:56] <JakeA> I don't think so
394. # [13:00] <JakeA> Poor Brian
395. # [13:06] <darobin> I think a Standards Suck parody is in order
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397. # [13:08] <matjas> do any browsers support autofill fields for `autocomplete` attribute? http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/association-of-controls-and-forms.html#autofill-field
398. # [13:08] <matjas> doesn’t really seem to work in Chrome — any value seems to map to `autocomplete="off"`
399. # [13:09] <JakeA> matjas: really? I don't think that's the case
400. # [13:09] <JakeA> I've seen it work before
401. # [13:09] <JakeA> also http://www.html5rocks.com/en/tutorials/forms/requestautocomplete/
402. # [13:10] <foolip> jgraham, do you have a pointer to the latest and bestest way to submit new testharness.js tests?
403. # [13:10] <foolip> if it's easy enough, I want to do it...
404. # [13:10] <foolip> (feel the pressure)
405. # [13:11] <jgraham> foolip: http://testthewebforward.org/docs/
406. # [13:12] <JakeA> matjas: I get this autocompleting https://googledrive.com/host/0B28BnxIvH5DueUxvWVNsQXd5dU0/checkout.html?
407. # [13:12] <jgraham> http://testthewebforward.org/docs/github-101.html#test-repositories might be all you need to know
408. # [13:12] <foolip> ok, so pull request on https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests is the super-short answer?
409. # [13:13] <annevk> foolip: yeah
410. # [13:14] <foolip> nice
411. # [13:14] <matjas> JakeA: thanks. trying to pin down what i’m doing wrong
412. # [13:14] <foolip> jgraham, is old-tests/submission/Opera/media/ going to stay there forever, or is there a plan?
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415. # [13:16] <jgraham> foolip: There is a plan
416. # [13:16] <jgraham> So if possible don't submit new tests there
417. # [13:16] <foolip> jgraham, ok, thanks!
418. # [13:17] <foolip> zcorpan, do you know if all of our media tests are somewhere in https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests ?
419. # [13:17] <foolip> would be super nice :)
420. # [13:17] <zcorpan> foolip: they are not
421. # [13:17] <zcorpan> foolip: a few of them are, though
422. # [13:18] <foolip> zcorpan, because they need to be converted to testharness.js?
423. # [13:18] <zcorpan> in particular the track tests are all submitted i think
424. # [13:19] <zcorpan> i had a few attempts at submitting most media tests (without converting), but for some reason it hasn't actually happened yet
425. # [13:19] <foolip> zcorpan, I will cheer when it happens :)
426. # [13:19] <zcorpan> iirc the track tests are still to be reviewed
427. # [13:20] <zcorpan> past experience suggests that it's better to convert to testharness first and then submit
428. # [13:20] <foolip> I want to do a spec-implementation sync for video and track in Blink, so having our tests public would be helpful in that endeavor
429. # [13:21] <foolip> zcorpan, do you have some half-finished conversion work sitting around in case I'm curious?
430. # [13:21] <zcorpan> because some people get grumpy about there being tests in the wrong format and expect a deadline for when i will have them converted. and nobody else helps converting. Ms2ger is exception to the rule who helped convert some worker tests
431. # [13:22] <foolip> zcorpan, oh, some of the stuff in old-tests/submission/Opera/ is not converted?
432. # [13:22] * jgraham converted some websockets tests
433. # [13:22] <jgraham> But I think I was being paid by Opera at the time
434. # [13:22] <wilhelm> If that helps, there's always http://testsuites.opera.com/ . You can sync things directly from the t server to there. That gets the tests out in the open, at least, even if they are the wrong format.
435. # [13:22] <jgraham> So maybe that doesn't count
436. # [13:23] <foolip> wilhelm, hmm, I see that there are none of the media tests, so maybe dumping them directly into https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests would be just as easy
437. # [13:23] <zcorpan> jgraham: yeah, maybe i was unfair with the no help statement
438. # [13:23] <wilhelm> Leaving mostly-good tests to rot on an internal server is the worst option anyway. (c:
439. # [13:24] <jgraham> Putting things unconverted in web-platform-tests is much much better than testsuites.opera.com
440. # [13:24] <wilhelm> Then I withdraw my above comment. (c:
441. # [13:24] <jgraham> At least in the latter case it might eventually be my job to do the conversions
442. # [13:25] <zcorpan> anyway i'll have another look at dumping the tests
443. # [13:25] <jgraham> The problem we have at the moment is that there are relatively lots of people that want a testsuite and relatively few who are apid to work on it
444. # [13:25] <wilhelm> That sounds vaguely familiar.
445. # [13:25] <jgraham> Also W3C seem to have assigned denis to do some work on the testsuite for the purposes of HTML->Rec
446. # [13:26] <jgraham> So now is probably a good time to dump HTML tests
447. # [13:26] <jgraham> (now lunch)
448. # [13:51] <MikeSmith> apid?
449. # [13:51] <jgraham> paid
450. # [13:52] <jgraham> My fingers aren't race-free
451. # [13:54] * Joins: karlcow (~karl@nerval.la-grange.net)
452. # [13:54] <MikeSmith> heh
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458. # [14:01] <Ms2ger> Oh hey, hadn't seen http://testsuites.opera.com/ before
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460. # [14:02] <Ms2ger> FWIW, I'm happy to help converting tests to th.js, given infinite free time :)
461. # [14:02] <wilhelm> Ms2ger: It predates the W3C servers by a small margin, I think. It wasn't really used much.
462. # [14:03] * Parts: HugoDaniel (~hugo@193.136.113.58)
463. # [14:08] <jgraham> Started work on https://github.com/jgraham/html-testsuite/blob/documentation/docs/critic.md
464. # [14:08] <jgraham> I think I really need to walk through an actual review to make it work though. Which is quite a lot of work :|
465. # [14:12] <Ms2ger> I've got https://critic.hoppipolla.co.uk/r/208 to offer ;)
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468. # [14:13] <jgraham> Yeah, but to tick all the boxes, I need a review with multiple commits, possibly touching multiple files, and some deliberate errors
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471. # [14:14] <jgraham> I think I will have to construct something artificial
472. # [14:14] * jgraham does something else for a bit
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479. # [14:26] <Ms2ger> jgraham, done
480. # [14:28] <Ms2ger> Ta
481. # [14:29] <jgraham> Thanks for the tests :)
482. # [14:30] <zcorpan> jgraham: for the timeout_multiplyer change, what's the story for existing tests that set timeout?
483. # [14:30] * Quits: kborchers (~kborchers@unaffiliated/kborchers) (Excess Flood)
484. # [14:30] * Ms2ger is down to two branches in his wpt clone
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486. # [14:32] <Ms2ger> Now I could focus on reviewing!
487. # [14:32] <Ms2ger> Could
488. # [14:32] * smaug____ wonders what is happening with Web Audio API
489. # [14:32] <smaug____> Ms2ger: want to take some patches from my queue ;)
490. # [14:32] <Ms2ger> Ugh
491. # [14:32] <smaug____> WAAPI doesn't have an active editor anymore, I think
492. # [14:32] <Ms2ger> Thanks for reminding me off my code review queue :/
493. # [14:32] <smaug____> and that spec certainly could use some heavy editing
494. # [14:33] <Ms2ger> smaug____, volunteering? :)
495. # [14:33] * Joins: kborchers (~kborchers@unaffiliated/kborchers)
496. # [14:34] <smaug____> nouu
497. # [14:35] <smaug____> well, I could kill all the nonsense first and focus on the stuff people actually need
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504. # [14:47] <zcorpan> what i remember from looking at web audio is sad panda
505. # [14:52] <zcorpan> jgraham: hmm, the per-test timeout setting is still supported?
506. # [14:52] <zcorpan> seems so
507. # [14:55] <smaug____> oh, the trash version has different editors
508. # [14:55] <smaug____> odd, is TR/ of web audio the real version
509. # [14:55] <annevk> maybe they moved to GitHub?
510. # [14:56] <smaug____> aha, my mistake. The editor's draft is in unusual place
511. # [14:56] <annevk> smaug____: https://github.com/WebAudio/
512. # [14:56] <smaug____> yes
513. # [14:56] <smaug____> unsual
514. # [14:56] <smaug____> ok, silly me. my mistake
515. # [14:57] <annevk> par for the course in the WHATWG
516. # [14:57] <smaug____> how so?
517. # [14:57] <smaug____> I see whatwg specs under whatwg.org
518. # [14:57] * Joins: jwalden (~waldo@207.218.72.65)
519. # [14:57] <smaug____> not some random .com
520. # [14:57] * DaveMethvin|away is now known as DaveMethvin
521. # [14:57] <annevk> ah, yeah, checked out versions are, but they are copied from https://github.com/whatwg/
522. # [14:58] <smaug____> but whatwg.org versions are generated immediately when github version changes, right?
523. # [14:59] <annevk> yes
524. # [14:59] <smaug____> but anyway, total failure from my side :)
525. # [14:59] <annevk> sorry for the confusion
526. # [14:59] <jgraham> zcorpan: Yeah, still supported although you are encouraged to leave it alone unless you know what you are doing
527. # [14:59] * smaug____ wants consistency also in spec document management :)
528. # [15:00] <annevk> we're still in the competition phase, not ready to standardize quite yet
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536. # [15:18] <darobin> yeah, it's hardcore competition phase there
537. # [15:18] <darobin> which is why W3C has decided to adopt a vastly improved spec location system based on subdomains
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539. # [15:19] <darobin> for instance, we'll now have http://web-audio.wd.2013.10.05.specs.rectrack.w3.org/
540. # [15:19] <darobin> much simpler that way!
541. # [15:19] <Ms2ger> Wrong order in your date
542. # [15:20] <darobin> Ms2ger: only if you're trying to make it useful :)
543. # [15:20] <Ms2ger> Should have known better
544. # [15:21] <foolip> TabAtkins, ping
545. # [15:22] <TabAtkins> foolip: pong
546. # [15:24] <foolip> TabAtkins, I started following some weird Blink code around video sizing, and found myself in your spec: http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-images/
547. # [15:25] <foolip> TabAtkins, in particular, Blink uses default intrinsic size 300x150, instead of default object size 300x150
548. # [15:26] <foolip> and there's a comment in RenderReplaced::computeReplacedLogicalWidth that says that it isn't what the spec says, but could be risky to change
549. # [15:26] <foolip> my concrete question is which spec should specify that the default object size of images should be 0x0
550. # [15:27] <TabAtkins> Why would that be what you wanted?
551. # [15:28] <foolip> I was under the impression that 300x150 is the default for replaced content, but that could just be what Blink does
552. # [15:28] <foolip> now that I checked I couldn't find a default at all
553. # [15:28] <foolip> (in the specs)
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555. # [15:29] <TabAtkins> This keeps coming up. ^_^
556. # [15:29] <darobin> TabAtkins: have you thought about using https://github.com/tobie/specref for Bikeshed?
557. # [15:29] <Ms2ger> So spec it ;)
558. # [15:29] <TabAtkins> Replaced elements are sized in a slightly weird way which is *almost* the sizing algorithm in Images, but not quite. Just follow 2.1.
559. # [15:29] * Joins: richt (~richt@180.94.118.5)
560. # [15:29] <TabAtkins> Specifically, the "inline replaced elements" stuff.
561. # [15:29] <Ms2ger> So does 2.1 say "whatever"? :)
562. # [15:30] <TabAtkins> Ms2ger: Only in one case.
563. # [15:30] * Ms2ger hears "yes"
564. # [15:30] <TabAtkins> darobin: I do plan on adding that in as a source, but it's hard to integrate as the links are untyped. :/
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566. # [15:32] <foolip> TabAtkins, http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS2/visudet.html#inline-replaced-width ends up with 300px, that isn't what any browser does for images
567. # [15:33] * Quits: richt (~richt@180.94.118.5) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
568. # [15:34] <TabAtkins> Interesting. What's the precise conditions that land you there?
569. # [15:35] <foolip> TabAtkins, try http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/2579 in a few different browsers
570. # [15:35] <foolip> the conditions are very simple, as you will see :)
571. # [15:35] <darobin> TabAtkins: can you file a bug on the repo indicating what your needs are? it would be good to have a single point there, and we're happy to improve things
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573. # [15:37] <TabAtkins> foolip: Ah, this is an interesting case, as there's no image at all.
574. # [15:38] <foolip> TabAtkins, I'm guessing this will also be the size while the image is loading, although I haven't tried
575. # [15:38] <TabAtkins> Not too surprised that browsers handle this differently than the has-image case.
576. # [15:38] <TabAtkins> Using delayed-image, yeah, it is.
577. # [15:39] <TabAtkins> Okay, looks like this is a case the spec doesn't touch. I'll put it on my list of things to explore and spec.
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579. # [15:39] <foolip> my guess is that making images 300x150 for either the no-src or the still-loading case is not Web compatible
580. # [15:39] <TabAtkins> Yeah.
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583. # [15:40] <foolip> right now, I'm trying to decide how to fix <video> sizing, without also breaking all other replaced content
584. # [15:40] <foolip> but it sounds like the "default object size" concept in your spec isn't ready for implementation?
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587. # [15:41] <TabAtkins> https://github.com/tabatkins/specs/issues/17
588. # [15:41] <TabAtkins> It doesn't cover replaced elements, but is otherwise fine and should be web-compatible.
589. # [15:43] <foolip> TabAtkins, ok, maybe I'll try to clean up the other things that are wrong about this first, and leave splitting of intrinsic size from default object size until later
590. # [15:43] <foolip> (about <video> that is)
591. # [15:43] <tobie> TabAtkins: don't understand what you mean by "typed links".
592. # [15:45] <TabAtkins> tobie: Bikeshed (and Shepherd) gives a type to all definitions, to reduce the chance of clashing. Links are thus also typed. (The typing information also has other benefits, like making it easier to auto-gen some kinds of documentation.)
593. # [15:48] * tobie confused.
594. # [15:48] <tobie> In practice, what does that mean?
595. # [15:48] <TabAtkins> It means that you can write 'foo' and be assured that it'll link to the foo *property*, not anything else, and that you won't have to disambiguate the link unless there are multiple definitions of the property.
596. # [15:48] <TabAtkins> (Because 'foo' is a markup shortcut in Bikeshed that expands to <a data-dfn-type=property>foo</a>.)
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598. # [15:48] <TabAtkins> Sorry, data-link-type
599. # [15:48] <tobie> oh, are you referring to the fact that some of the references in specref are still html strings?
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601. # [15:49] <tobie> because mostly it's just structured data, now.
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603. # [15:50] <TabAtkins> tobie: No, not that.
604. # [15:51] <TabAtkins> Look at the difference between https://github.com/tobie/specref/blob/master/xrefs.json and https://raw.github.com/tabatkins/bikeshed/master/bikeshed/spec-data/anchors.json
605. # [15:51] <tobie> oh---that.
606. # [15:51] <TabAtkins> The xrefs are just a mapping from arbitrary string to anchor.
607. # [15:51] <TabAtkins> While bikeshed's data is much richer and makes it easier to autolink.
608. # [15:51] <tobie> I have no idea how that works or what it does. Afaik, no one uses it. Ask darobin.
609. # [15:51] <TabAtkins> Oh, you were just wanting to talk about the biblio data?
610. # [15:52] * Quits: smaug____ (~chatzilla@cs164155.pp.htv.fi) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
611. # [15:52] <TabAtkins> Yeah, as far as I can tell biblio is fine. I can integrate that. I'll file an issue on myself for it.
612. # [15:53] <mabj> Hi
613. # [15:53] <TabAtkins> tobie: Do you know what the relation is between specref's biblio data and Bert's biblio.ref stuff?
614. # [15:53] <Ms2ger> tobie, are these just gh/whatwg/xref merged into one file?
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616. # [15:54] <tobie> Ms2ger: think so. darobin would know more about this .
617. # [15:55] <darobin> right, so the xrefs data is specref is just a rather old whatwg import; it would certainly be good to update it and make it more useful, as per TabAtkins's usage notably
618. # [15:55] <tobie> TabAtkins: afaik relationship is historical: Bert's biblio ref stuff was used by darobin's respec.biblio which I ripped out turn into a service earlier this year.
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620. # [15:55] <darobin> re the bibrefs, they were initially imported from Bert's stuff, then massively edited, then the whatwg refs were merged in, then more editing, then the automatic W3C refs were imported too
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622. # [15:56] <TabAtkins> Okay, so using the bibref data should be approximately a superset. Cool.
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624. # [15:57] <tobie> TabAtkins: hopefully.
625. # [15:57] <TabAtkins> So long as it's kept reasonably up-to-date, I'm happy.
626. # [15:58] <darobin> it is
627. # [15:58] <TabAtkins> kk
628. # [15:58] <darobin> I think we could make it more manageable by splitting the source into lots of small files
629. # [15:58] <darobin> but that's a backend detail
630. # [15:59] <TabAtkins> All right, I'll handle this later: https://github.com/tabatkins/bikeshed/issues/86
631. # [16:00] <darobin> sweet
632. # [16:00] <TabAtkins> darobin: It's okay if I don't use your API, right? Bikesheed needs to be able to run without network.
633. # [16:00] <TabAtkins> So I'd just download the file locally.
634. # [16:01] <darobin> having a bunch of preprocessors flourish is good, but the stupid work-intensive stuff should be shared if possible
635. # [16:01] <darobin> TabAtkins: yeah, you can just grab a snapshot
636. # [16:01] <TabAtkins> kk
637. # [16:01] <TabAtkins> And yeah, I agree.
638. # [16:01] <darobin> TabAtkins: GETting the endpoint without parameters gives you a dump
639. # [16:01] <TabAtkins> Cool.
640. # [16:01] <darobin> I recommend that over getting the GH content because we reserve the right to change how that's organised
641. # [16:02] <TabAtkins> Okay.
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643. # [16:02] <tobie> + the data is already transformed quite a bit.
644. # [16:02] <TabAtkins> We should work on merging the xref stuff too, though. Shepherd's data is much richer and more useful.
645. # [16:02] <darobin> definitely
646. # [16:02] <tobie> agreed.
647. # [16:02] <darobin> maybe this should be moved out of tobie-space somewhere where we can more easily collaborate on it
648. # [16:02] <Ms2ger> Does it insist on linking to outdated specs?
649. # [16:02] <darobin> Ms2ger: specref is not opinionated there, it gives you a choice
650. # [16:03] <darobin> I'm not sure if it gives enough of a choice yet, but if not it will
651. # [16:03] <TabAtkins> No. Within W3C space, Shepherd maintains both an ED and TR link.
652. # [16:03] <darobin> it basically knows about multiple version for a document
653. # [16:03] <darobin> oh, you were talking about Shepherd, sorry
654. # [16:03] <Ms2ger> How about w3c forks?
655. # [16:04] <TabAtkins> Those are separate specs. If Shepherd is parsing them, then they'll just be more definition sources.
656. # [16:04] <darobin> Ms2ger: forks of the ED? I reckon otherwise it might be TR?
657. # [16:04] <TabAtkins> (Possibly requiring disambiguation.)
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659. # [16:04] <TabAtkins> There's no preference for anything, though, beyond some special-casing of CSS2.1/SVG1.1 things.
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661. # [16:05] <tobie> darobin: moving specref to gh.com/w3c is on my todo list, but far from the top, unfortunately.
662. # [16:05] <darobin> tobie: I could easily move the repo, but I guess that won't help with the nodejitsu bit
663. # [16:05] <tobie> Exactly.
664. # [16:06] <darobin> just give me your nodejitsu admin password and all will be fine
665. # [16:06] <darobin> I *promise*
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667. # [16:07] <tobie> TabAtkins: where's the shepherd api endpoint got this x-ref stuff and what exactly is included in it?
668. # [16:08] <tobie> (or more to the point: where can I read more about this?)
669. # [16:08] <zcorpan> heycam: please help https://critic.hoppipolla.co.uk/showcomment?chain=615
670. # [16:08] <TabAtkins> Dunno how much docs plinss maintains on shepherd.
671. # [16:09] <TabAtkins> But it just downloads and parses all the specs it knows about regularly (in the case of dvcs.w3.org specs, it has commit hooks for some repos that lets it parse within a few minutes).
672. # [16:09] <TabAtkins> It shares definition extraction logic with Bikeshed, so you can read Bikeshed's docs to learn about that.
673. # [16:10] <Ms2ger> zcorpan, so what's the question?
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675. # [16:12] <zcorpan> Ms2ger: i think, what does webidl require to happen for InterfaceObject.staticOperation.apply(null, args)
676. # [16:12] <Ms2ger> zcorpan, the this value doesn't matter at all for static operations
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678. # [16:13] <heycam> Ms2ger, zcorpan, correct
679. # [16:13] <Ms2ger> So you basically can't test anything
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681. # [16:14] <heycam> well you can test passing funny values and checking that the method is still run
682. # [16:14] <heycam> (as the first argument to .call)
683. # [16:14] <darobin> but that requires knowing some good jokes
684. # [16:14] <Ms2ger> heycam, the static operation can throw TypeErrors if it likes
685. # [16:15] <Ms2ger> heycam, so you can't assert that it doesn't
686. # [16:15] <heycam> Ms2ger, sure. oh is this the generic idl tests, not knowing what the exact function is?
687. # [16:15] <Ms2ger> Right
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689. # [16:15] <heycam> ok then yes
690. # [16:15] <heycam> maybe you could bake in a function you know will never throw TypeError?
691. # [16:16] <Ms2ger> As part of your test suite, sure
692. # [16:16] <heycam> (maybe I do already)
693. # [16:17] <zcorpan> ok thx
694. # [16:17] <annevk> merging XMLHttpRequest and Fetch...
695. # [16:17] <annevk> this is why people get upset when you change the invariants
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698. # [16:22] <tobie> TabAtkins: thanks.
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704. # [16:40] <annevk> I think the end might be in sight...
705. # [16:40] <annevk> I mean, the point where everyone will start complaining about how it's all different and has bugs
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707. # [16:47] <jgraham> Is that "the end" as in "the point where you die and then are eaten by the bugs you created"?
708. # [16:51] <annevk> jgraham: hard to predict the future
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720. # [17:04] <zcorpan> TabAtkins: is it intended to invoke bikeshed as "bikeshed" or "bikeshed.py" in Makefile? i installed it using sudo python setup.py install and the former only works, but for dirk only the latter works
721. # [17:05] <TabAtkins> If the thing has been installed, "bikeshed" works. If it hasn't, bikeshed.py exists as a launcher.
722. # [17:05] <TabAtkins> I don't use and don't understand Makefiles, so I can't help you with that.
723. # [17:07] <zcorpan> ok, thx
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741. # [17:52] <annevk> When there's more example than normative text, you gotta wonder... http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-snappoints/
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743. # [17:55] <annevk> Are there any browser vendor blogs out there that don't read like press releases?
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753. # [18:19] <annevk> Whoa, I got rid of the XMLHttpRequest task source
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757. # [18:29] <annevk> Aight, landed.
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760. # [18:34] <annevk> Initial breakage fixes landed.
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763. # [18:40] <sangwhan__> annevk: why is there a w3c clone of the url spec?
764. # [18:41] <Ms2ger> sangwhan__, uh-oh...
765. # [18:41] <annevk> sangwhan__: is there?
766. # [18:41] * sangwhan__ notes a off record answer is fine, just want to know which one to follow as I might have to make some changes to GURL
767. # [18:41] <Ms2ger> sangwhan__, follow the whatwg one :)
768. # [18:41] <Ms2ger> What channel did you think you were in? ;)
769. # [18:41] <annevk> sangwhan__: http://url.spec.whatwg.org/ is the only one with maintenance to my knowledge
770. # [18:42] <sangwhan__> annevk: the w3c one i bumped into, which has your name on it in big bold text :)
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772. # [18:43] * sangwhan__ wonders if i plucked the tiger's whisker
773. # [18:44] <sangwhan__> So we have a problem that needs solving, namely pointer events (thank you IPR) not acknowledging touch events exist, but implementations that have to deal with pointer/mouse/touch all in one merry basket
774. # [18:45] <sangwhan__> And then there are the even less fortunate ones who have to deal with spatnav only browsing, which have no clue on what kind of compat events we need to fire
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776. # [18:48] <annevk> sangwhan__: hmm, pointer?
777. # [18:48] <annevk> sangwhan__: https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/url/raw-file/tip/Overview.html maybe?
778. # [18:48] <sangwhan__> annevk: yeah, that thing
779. # [18:49] <sangwhan__> annevk: "the editor" is where i thought something is strange
780. # [18:49] <annevk> sangwhan__: the date is a clue
781. # [18:51] <sangwhan__> annevk: ah, a clue
782. # [18:51] <annevk> sangwhan__: so yeah, you want the URL Standard, the rest is the W3C doing things without my permission (but with permission from the URL Standard's copyright)
783. # [18:53] <sangwhan__> annevk: i'm not gonna ask why nor who, i figured something was funny
784. # [18:53] <annevk> sangwhan__: it's all quite public
785. # [18:53] <annevk> sangwhan__: see e.g. http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-i18n-core/2013OctDec/
786. # [18:53] <annevk> sangwhan__: and there's some posts on the web about copyright and such
787. # [18:54] <sangwhan__> annevk: i don't follow i18n, so had no idea - i just happened to bump into it and got a bit curious. guess i'm late to the party.
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792. # [19:01] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: so about that function in idlharness that's attempting to test the "if this is null, throw a TypeError" requirement in the WebIDL spec for the non-static case
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794. # [19:01] <MikeSmith> it throws a TypeError for the static case too
795. # [19:02] <MikeSmith> the window[this.name].prototype[member.name].apply(null, args) part
796. # [19:02] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: isn't that because window[this.name].prototype[member.name] is undefined in the static case?
797. # [19:02] <MikeSmith> for the static case, it throws "window[this.name].prototype[member.name] is undefined"
798. # [19:02] <MikeSmith> yeah
799. # [19:02] <zcorpan> right, that's expected
800. # [19:02] <MikeSmith> yeah
801. # [19:03] <MikeSmith> but for the non-static case, it throws a TypeError with the message, "close' called on an object that does not implement interface Notification"
802. # [19:04] <MikeSmith> which, that doesn't seem like what I'd expect the message to be
803. # [19:04] <zcorpan> yeah, that's also expected. normal operations require this to be the right kind of object
804. # [19:04] <MikeSmith> ok
805. # [19:05] <MikeSmith> well, I'm just wondering if there's any way I can make that test more specific
806. # [19:05] <MikeSmith> so that it doesn't pass for the static case
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808. # [19:06] <zcorpan> there are more things that can be tested in the normal case, but i think nothing that can safely be tested in the static case
809. # [19:06] <MikeSmith> (since all that current test is doing is checking for any kind of TypeError at all)
810. # [19:06] <MikeSmith> ok
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812. # [19:07] <MikeSmith> so I guess then I should just put if (!member["static"]) around it and leave it that
813. # [19:07] <zcorpan> yeah
814. # [19:07] <MikeSmith> ok
815. # [19:07] <MikeSmith> thanks
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817. # [19:09] <zcorpan> annevk: i looked through the xhr+fetch diff but didn't get much wiser :-) maybe you can check if cssom is using fetch correctly?
818. # [19:10] <TabAtkins> I'm confused and betrayed by the Snap Points spec, because I was literally in the process of writing that very thing this week. ^_^
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820. # [19:10] <TabAtkins> Damn Rossi, all putting me off with "oh no, I need to check with Legal before you write the spec" WHEN HE WAS WRITING IT BEHIND ME BACK THE WHOLE TIME
821. # [19:10] <TabAtkins> *MY
822. # [19:10] <TabAtkins> (I'm not a leprechaun.)
823. # [19:11] <hober> no no, it's so much better with you doing an awful fake irish accent
824. # [19:11] <TabAtkins> (Typing all caps on a Pixel is hard, as there's no Caps Lock.)
825. # [19:11] <Ms2ger> [citation needed]
826. # [19:11] <TabAtkins> Ms2ger: You've seen me. I'd be the tallest leprechaun ever.
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838. # [19:27] <Hixie_> annevk: multipage thingy seems broken
839. # [19:27] <annevk> le sigh
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841. # [19:30] <annevk> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/do-multipage-complete-update
842. # [19:30] <annevk> Resolving www.whatwg.org... 2607:f298:1:105::340:cd86, 69.163.222.251
843. # [19:30] <annevk> Connecting to www.whatwg.org|2607:f298:1:105::340:cd86|:80... connected.
844. # [19:30] <annevk> HTTP request sent, awaiting response... 416 Requested Range Not Satisfiable
845. # [19:30] <annevk> The file is already fully retrieved; nothing to do.
846. # [19:30] <annevk> oh fuck sorry
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848. # [19:32] * vcarbune is now known as vcarbune|away
849. # [19:34] <annevk> MikeSmith: is http://code.google.com/p/html5/source/browse/trunk/spec-splitter/spec-splitter.py still the latest copy of spec-splitter.py?
850. # [19:34] <Hixie_> wow, don't see 416 very often
851. # [19:35] <Hixie_> looks like something worked, fwiw
852. # [19:39] * Joins: barnabywalters (~barnabywa@89.17.128.127)
853. # [19:40] <TabAtkins> annevk: I'm interested in adding splitting functionality to Bikeshed. Is there good documentation on the existing tools?
854. # [19:40] <annevk> TabAtkins: no
855. # [19:40] <TabAtkins> Also: how do I respond to a mailing list thread that I'm not already subscribed to, with the least chance of accidentally splitting it?
856. # [19:40] <TabAtkins> annevk: Awesome.
857. # [19:40] <TabAtkins> webkit-dev, if it matters.
858. # [19:41] <annevk> TabAtkins: everything non-vital is a hack and receives no active maintenance, because people want to work on other things
859. # [19:41] <TabAtkins> annevk: All right. In that case, I guess I'll just need to figure out what people want out of a spec splitter.
860. # [19:42] <annevk> TabAtkins: subscribe to the list
861. # [19:42] <annevk> TabAtkins: spec-splitter.py above is what HTML uses
862. # [19:42] <Hixie_> TabAtkins: have someone forward you the thread in multipart digest form, then reply to the e-mail from that
863. # [19:42] <annevk> TabAtkins: it was written by Philip` back in the day
864. # [19:42] <TabAtkins> Hixie_: That's a decent idea. I wonder if Gmail supports that?
865. # [19:42] <Hixie_> haha no.
866. # [19:42] <Hixie_> :-)
867. # [19:42] <Hixie_> pine does though :-)
868. # [19:42] <MikeSmith> annevk: that is the latest, yeah
869. # [19:43] <TabAtkins> Man, why you gotta get my hopes up like that.
870. # [19:43] <Hixie_> :-(
871. # [19:43] <annevk> MikeSmith: I a dded a comment
872. # [19:43] <Hixie_> i don't know if gmail does threading right at all
873. # [19:43] <annevk> MikeSmith: http://code.google.com/p/html5/source/detail?r=202
874. # [19:43] <Hixie_> there's a bunch of headers you have to get right for threading to work properly
875. # [19:43] <annevk> MikeSmith: I don't really know how to commit to that repo...
876. # [19:44] <Hixie_> is |e => { }| modern shorthand for |function (e) { }| ?
877. # [19:44] <Hixie_> or is it something more?
878. # [19:44] <Ms2ger> Hixie_, roughly
879. # [19:44] <annevk> we should maybe put spec-splitter on github.com/whatwg too
880. # [19:44] <MikeSmith> annevk: svn commit?
881. # [19:44] <Ms2ger> Hixie_, it also doesn't get its own |this|
882. # [19:44] <annevk> just like web-apps-tracker
883. # [19:44] <MikeSmith> annevk: yeah
884. # [19:44] <Hixie_> Ms2ger: |function (e) { }.bind(this)| ?
885. # [19:44] <MikeSmith> Google Code is the new Sourceforge
886. # [19:44] <Ms2ger> Hixie_, and it returns its expression like in |x => x*x|
887. # [19:45] <Ms2ger> TabAtkins, you get the right headers from the archive, write it out in a text editor and send it with telnet? :)
888. # [19:45] <Hixie_> Ms2ger: so |e => { statements; expr }| is |function (e) { statements; return expr; }.bind(this)| ?
889. # [19:45] <TabAtkins> Ms2ger: Seems reasonable.
890. # [19:46] <Ms2ger> Hixie_, I think that's about it; I haven't followed that closely
891. # [19:46] <TabAtkins> Hixie_: It's a little bit more, but basically yeah. Important difference is that it doesn't shadow `this`.
892. # [19:46] <TabAtkins> It just lexically binds `this` like a normal variable.
893. # [19:46] <Hixie_> TabAtkins: it captures |this| instead of binding it?
894. # [19:47] <Hixie_> is the {...} necessary? Ms2ger's example didn't have it, but i don't understand what that means
895. # [19:47] <TabAtkins> Yeah. Also, you can omit the braces if the body is just a single expression, and in that case, omit the "return" too.
896. # [19:47] <TabAtkins> [1,2,3].map(x=>x*2)
897. # [19:47] <jgraham> And you can't use it as a generator aiui
898. # [19:48] <Ms2ger> Well, you can't use function() {} as a generator either
899. # [19:48] <Ms2ger> Needs function*... aiui
900. # [19:48] <Hixie_> oh ok, so |e => { ... }| is |function (e) { ... }.bind(this)| but |e => f| is |function (e) { return f }.bind(this)| ?
901. # [19:48] <TabAtkins> Yup.
902. # [19:48] <Hixie_> wtf is function*
903. # [19:48] <Ms2ger> Generators
904. # [19:48] <TabAtkins> Generator function. From Python.
905. # [19:48] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: ok all issues for https://critic.hoppipolla.co.uk/r/351 now addressed I think
906. # [19:48] <Hixie_> oh "yield" no longer makes a generator magically?
907. # [19:48] <TabAtkins> Nah.
908. # [19:48] <Ms2ger> Right
909. # [19:48] <jgraham> Wait, what? There's a special form for declaring that a function will be a generator
910. # [19:49] <Hixie_> well that's an improvement. Not sure why you'd use "function*" instead of "generator" but ok
911. # [19:49] <TabAtkins> Hixie_: Reserved words (or lack of them).
912. # [19:49] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: and reviewed
913. # [19:49] <jgraham> Not sure that's really better
914. # [19:49] <Ms2ger> Hixie_, doesn't distinguish based on the {}s, but on the number of expressions, I think
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916. # [19:49] <Hixie_> Ms2ger: of {expr} is the same as expr? interesting
917. # [19:49] <TabAtkins> Ms2ger: Ah, so [1,2,3].map(x=>{x*2}) is okay too?
918. # [19:49] <Domenic_> no
919. # [19:50] <Hixie_> is there, like, a spec for this? :-)
920. # [19:50] <TabAtkins> Yes, ES6.
921. # [19:50] <Hixie_> url?
922. # [19:50] <Ms2ger> Apparently not
923. # [19:50] <TabAtkins> But I haven't read it.
924. # [19:50] <Domenic_> http://people.mozilla.org/~jorendorff/es6-draft.html#sec-arrow-function-definitions
925. # [19:50] <Hixie_> thanks Domenic_
926. # [19:50] <Ms2ger> Hixie_, looks like it does look at {}s, nvm that last bit
927. # [19:51] <Hixie_> Domenic_: is there somewhere to file bugs on that text? i found a typo
928. # [19:51] <Domenic_> Hixie_: https://bugs.ecmascript.org/
929. # [19:51] <Hixie_> thanks
930. # [19:52] <Ms2ger> We should get jorendorff to add a widget like html has
931. # [19:53] <Domenic_> There are lots of typos/little inconsistencies, as he's focusing on getting all the semantics in by end of year. But yeah filing them is good if you have the time.
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934. # [19:58] <zcorpan> https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/135 looks epic. i wonder if the tests are still valid since <template> was integrated in html
935. # [20:01] <jgraham> zcorpan: Seems to be closed (it might still be wrong now ofc)
936. # [20:01] <zcorpan> right
937. # [20:01] <Hixie_> this is quite dense spec text. i don't think i'll be able to file anything but typos :-)
938. # [20:02] <Hixie_> (can't file anything until bugzilla mails me a password, of course)
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940. # [20:03] <Domenic_> Hixie_: check spam folder, I am pretty sure my password went there. And yes, pretty dense :-/
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942. # [20:05] <Hixie_> nope
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945. # [20:08] <Domenic_> What's the most semantic way to mark up tabs again? Kinda surprised this wasn't in "common idioms without dedicated elements"...
946. # [20:10] <hober> Domenic_: <div><section><h1>tab name</h1>...</section><section><h1>tab name</h1>...</section>...</div> ?
947. # [20:10] <Domenic_> hober: seems right, although tricky to style. thanks.
948. # [20:10] <Hixie_> most semantic way is to not mark them up at all, or maybe use <fieldset> or some such, and then do overflow:tabs (but that doesn't exist yet) or bind to it with a custom Web Component (but that doesn't really exist yet either)
949. # [20:11] <Hixie_> failing that... hober's markup is probably reasonable
950. # [20:11] <Hixie_> fundamentally the key is to realise that tabs are a device-specific rendering of an overflow mechanism (consider what it'd be like in an aural context)
951. # [20:13] <Hixie_> stylistic question for people who know the JS spec. Is "[[DefineOwnProperty]]" considered just a word of the english language, or is it considered code, or a special term (<i>), or something else?
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955. # [20:17] <Domenic_> Hixie_: from what I can tell internal methods and properties (i.e. [[things]]) are not marked up specially.
956. # [20:17] <Hixie_> yeah, that was my conclusion too
957. # [20:17] <Hixie_> weirdly, even property descriptors seem to just be prose
958. # [20:17] <Hixie_> ugly ugly prose :-P
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963. # [20:24] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: ? https://github.com/w3c/testharness.js/pull/45 no merge?
964. # [20:26] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: I rebase -i'ed/squashed the commits and pushed that
965. # [20:26] <MikeSmith> I guess there's probably some other way I should do it..
966. # [20:27] <zcorpan> dunno, i usually click the green button :-)
967. # [20:27] <MikeSmith> did "git push upstream HEAD:master" where upstream is git@github.com:w3c/testharness.js.git
968. # [20:27] <MikeSmith> yeah I don't like those buttons
969. # [20:27] <MikeSmith> or GUIs
970. # [20:27] * Quits: jernoble|laptop (~jernoble@17.114.104.89) (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
971. # [20:28] <MikeSmith> I like consoles and curses
972. # [20:28] * Joins: cheron (~cheron@unaffiliated/cheron)
973. # [20:28] <MikeSmith> like Hixie, I like pine. Except I spell it "mutt"
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975. # [20:30] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: I'm not looking forward so much to Hixie updating the ABNF for the <!-- stuff in <script>
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977. # [20:31] <zcorpan> bright side, now is an opportunity to make the rules simpler
978. # [20:32] <MikeSmith> guess so
979. # [20:33] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: anyway thanks for the review
980. # [20:34] <MikeSmith> I plan to spend all my time at TPAC writing tests
981. # [20:34] <zcorpan> nice
982. # [20:34] <Ms2ger> At least that time will be spent usefully
983. # [20:35] <MikeSmith> yeah plus I'm not counting on having usable internet access
984. # [20:36] <MikeSmith> so it's either talk to people or write tests
985. # [20:36] <Ms2ger> Eh, talking to people
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988. # [20:46] <annevk> Hixie_: you might have to email Allen directly for a Bugzilla account there
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1004. # [21:41] <jgraham> I plan to spend all my time at TPAC whining about TPAC
1005. # [21:41] <jgraham> Not really
1006. # [21:41] <jgraham> Or do I?
1007. # [21:42] <Ms2ger> You will find out in the next episode of Standards Suck!
1008. # [21:42] <annevk> Best to just relax and hang out with MikeSmith
1009. # [21:42] <annevk> I guess we could take that time to record at least one episode, although if marcosc doesn't make it that'd be tricky
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1011. # [21:43] <marcosc> I'm about to cancel everything
1012. # [21:43] <annevk> Oh you can? My stuff is non-refundable...
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1014. # [21:43] <marcosc> I think I can get the hotel back
1015. # [21:44] <marcosc> And should be able to get the registration fee back from w3c
1016. # [21:44] <Ms2ger> With so few people going, maybe the wifi will work
1017. # [21:44] <marcosc> heh
1018. # [21:44] <annevk> I'm gonna give it a few more days.
1019. # [21:44] <marcosc> the flight was not very expensive (relatively speaking)
1020. # [21:46] <marcosc> heh, there are at least 6 ways to access bookmarks in browsers.
1021. # [21:47] <annevk> I'd actually really like a web platform unconference in the bay area someday. I should probably do some reaching out to other companies to how hard that'd be to organize. Something like Edgeconf but more about standards and more parallel (small) sessions.
1022. # [21:48] <marcosc> that would be nice
1023. # [21:48] <annevk> Oh, and alongside we'd visit the zoo or a museum or some such for fun / team building. Best not do heated discussion all the time if you're only with each other for limited time.
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1025. # [21:49] <marcosc> I like zoos
1026. # [21:50] * Quits: annevk (~annevk@207.218.72.65) (Remote host closed the connection)
1027. # [21:50] * Ms2ger puts marcosc into a zoo :)
1028. # [21:51] <marcosc> I thought that's where I was already
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1030. # [21:53] <Ms2ger> http://dev.w3.org/CSS/biblio/biblio.ref
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1062. # [22:25] <annevk> zcorpan: I guess the question is whether you want incremental loading of style sheets or not
1063. # [22:25] <annevk> zcorpan: or more relevant, whether that's observable
1064. # [22:26] <annevk> zcorpan: seems kinda observable with a timing attack in HTML using offsetWidth or some such, dunno
1065. # [22:28] <zcorpan> annevk: i *think* API-wise it shouldn't be observable, the whole style sheet should be applied atomically
1066. # [22:28] <annevk> zcorpan: right
1067. # [22:28] <annevk> If people want to bikeshed: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23586
1068. # [22:28] <zcorpan> but obviously it's observable when subresources are fetched. but that can be considered optimization magic
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1070. # [22:29] <zcorpan> searchObj seems ok to me
1071. # [22:30] <Hixie_> annevk: they don't accept bugs from the public...?
1072. # [22:30] <zcorpan> or searchObject
1073. # [22:31] <zcorpan> like srcObject
1074. # [22:31] <annevk> Hixie_: I think so, but the registration system is broken or some such
1075. # [22:31] <annevk> Hixie_: at least, lots of people have had problems with it thus far
1076. # [22:31] <annevk> Hixie_: they should maybe just stop bothering and outsource to W3C like we did
1077. # [22:32] <Hixie_> ah ok
1078. # [22:32] <Hixie_> do you know Allen's e-mail?
1079. # [22:32] <annevk> pm'd
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1081. # [22:34] <Hixie_> thanks
1082. # [22:35] <zcorpan> W3C - administrating other standards organizations' bugzillas to their full potential
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1084. # [22:42] <Domenic_> annevk: I kind of like searchObj?
1085. # [22:43] <annevk> zcorpan: is srcObject what <video> has these days?
1086. # [22:43] <annevk> or HTMLMediaElement I suppose
1087. # [22:43] <annevk> suddenly rain
1088. # [22:44] <zcorpan> annevk: i think it was proposed but is not in the spec yet
1089. # [22:44] <zcorpan> so we could call that srcObj if we like
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1091. # [22:45] <annevk> http://dev.w3.org/2011/webrtc/editor/getusermedia.html#direct-assignment-to-media-elements
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1093. # [22:45] <zcorpan> oh
1094. # [22:46] <Domenic_> I feel like there must be a brilliant bikeshed color here waiting to be discovered (for the property formerly known as query).
1095. # [22:47] <annevk> zcorpan: we could ask for srcObj; precedent has srcdoc, srclang
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1097. # [22:48] <zcorpan> i don't see srcObject implemented on video or source in blink or gecko
1098. # [22:49] <annevk> zcorpan: emailed
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1100. # [22:54] <annevk> roc: you want a wiki account?
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1117. # [23:09] <roc> um
1118. # [23:09] <roc> sure
1119. # [23:09] <roc> zcorpan: Gecko has mozSrcObject
1120. # [23:10] <zcorpan> when will you stop with these prefixes? :-P
1121. # [23:11] <Domenic_> annevk: some guy on Twitter says "queryComponent" "since this is what the RFC uses"
1122. # [23:12] <annevk> Domenic_: meh, https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3986#section-3.4
1123. # [23:12] <annevk> Also, "the RFC" is obsoleted by this standard, so...
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1126. # [23:13] <Domenic_> ya
1127. # [23:13] <Domenic_> queryPairs?
1128. # [23:14] <annevk> I think I start liking queryObj more... but I guess we can give it some time.
1129. # [23:14] <annevk> Or only expose .query on URL objects. That's another option.
1130. # [23:14] <Domenic_> seems sad, poor HTMLAnchorElements
1131. # [23:15] <annevk> Yeah, and you kinda want it for window.location too which would require more weirdness...
1132. # [23:15] <annevk> And I don't think we want to rename ParentNode#query
1133. # [23:15] <annevk> So yeah, searchObj
1134. # [23:16] <Domenic_> yeah seems fine to me, only slightly awkward
1135. # [23:17] <zcorpan> i see no relevant actual instances of srcObject or mozSrcObject in webdevdata (june dataset)
1136. # [23:17] <Domenic_> queryPairs?
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1139. # [23:19] <roc> zcorpan: we have stopped, mostly, but this is quite old
1140. # [23:19] <zcorpan> ok
1141. # [23:20] <annevk> Suggested renaming in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-media-capture/2013Oct/0121.html btw
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1143. # [23:25] <zcorpan> sigh... https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23596
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1152. # [23:39] <Domenic_> queryParams
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1158. # [23:47] <zcorpan> Hixie_: also in regexp literals
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1165. # Session Close: Wed Oct 23 00:00:00 2013

The end :)