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# Session Start: Wed Oct 23 00:00:00 2013
# Session Ident: #whatwg
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# [00:06] <Hixie_> zcorpan: ta
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# [00:16] <matjas> Hixie_: seems a bit unmaintainable to hardcode all the cases where it needs to be escaped… can’t you just say it should always be escaped?
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# [00:17] <Hixie_> can you escape it in the case of "if (3 < 4)" ?
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# [00:18] <matjas> Hixie_: only in X(HTML)… but you could just say escape it whenever it’s followed by "/script"
# [00:18] <Hixie_> i already said that earlier in the sentence
# [00:18] <zcorpan> if ( 3<script ) is also problematic though
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# [00:19] <Hixie_> hm, yeah, that means escaping < is a non-starter
# [00:19] <matjas> Hixie_: this can also happen in a property name literal in an object literal (those are like a string) or in ES6 template literals etc. etc.
# [00:19] <Hixie_> what's a "property name literal"?
# [00:20] <matjas> the `'foo'` in `var x = { 'foo': 42 }` is represented by a `Literal` in the AST
# [00:20] <Hixie_> isn't that just a string?
# [00:20] <matjas> not really
# [00:20] <Hixie_> how does it differ?
# [00:20] <matjas> Hixie_: string literals can be replaced with a reference to a variable. in this case that’s not possible
# [00:21] <matjas> but this was just an example
# [00:22] <Hixie_> well sure, but a string literal isn't a variable
# [00:22] <matjas> listing all the different cases where escaping is needed seems like a maintainability burden
# [00:22] <Hixie_> it's a string literal
# [00:22] <Hixie_> you can use a string literal in an expression or where you need a property name literal, no?
# [00:22] <Hixie_> i mean, aren't they both strings?
# [00:22] <Hixie_> anyway it's academic, as zcorpan says, it won't work anyway
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# [00:29] <matjas> in the `3<script` case, adding a space after `<` could be considered as “escaping”
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# [00:31] <Hixie_> <!-- is never valid JS, right?
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# [00:31] <Hixie_> so so long as you always escape it, you'll always be fine.
# [00:31] <Hixie_> same with </script>
# [00:31] <Hixie_> which is what the spec already suggests
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# [00:32] <Hixie_> (though i guess the same could be said for the other case...)
# [00:32] <Hixie_> (bah)
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# [00:34] <Hixie_> why on earth does 'input' not apply to type=radio, checkbox, and file? anyone know?
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# [00:43] <matjas> Hixie_: <!-- is a singlelinecomment in JS http://javascript.spec.whatwg.org/#comment-syntax
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# [01:09] <zewt> matjas: that's an impressively concise piece of insanity
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# [01:30] <zewt> annoyed at having to say "xxx-related use cases" instead of "xxx use cases" Every Single Time, or some dictionary lawyer immediately jumps out of a bush going THAT'S NOT A USE CASE
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# [02:30] <Hixie_> zewt: how does "-related" help with that?
# [02:32] <zewt> "randomProposal()-related use cases" meaning "the use cases that randomProposal() addresses"
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# [02:32] <zewt> sometimes just feels like i'm talking to a room of lawyers :)
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# [02:33] <Hixie_> i don't undrstand the difference between "randomProposal()-related use cases" and randomProposal() use cases" but ok :-)
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# [05:50] <zewt> <social> element? sounds like a subject of an onion article
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# [08:18] <MikeSmith> zewt: where that come from ?
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# [08:56] <MikeSmith> Hixie_: good trolling with your sockpuppet <social> proposal
# [08:56] <MikeSmith> well played
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# [10:12] <zcorpan> <!-- could be valid JS if it wasn't for being a line comment. http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/2582
# [10:13] <zcorpan> Hixie_: </script> also http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/2583
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# [10:38] <zcorpan> can we make the name getter on HTMLCollection throw or return null for out-of-document trees?
# [10:39] <zcorpan> or on elements
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# [10:45] <Ms2ger> Mm
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# [10:56] <zcorpan> maybe throw and null are both bad options; being undefined/not present probably
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# [11:30] <Ms2ger> Lachy, congratulations, btw
# [11:30] <Lachy> thanks :-)
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# [11:32] <annevk> "None of this is an excuse for the W3C selling its soul, of course."
# [11:32] <Ms2ger> It had one?
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# [11:38] <karlcow> MS2ger: Exactly.
# [11:39] <annevk> zcorpan: I'm not sure why we want to change the named getter algorithm to forbid certain scenarios. Could you elaborate?
# [11:39] <karlcow> no organization has a soul. It frightens mean each time, people try to do anthropomorphism with social entities outside of a poetic license
# [11:40] <annevk> You need a poetic license these days to write nice things?
# [11:40] <annevk> Seems pretty clear what Brendan meant.
# [11:41] <karlcow> annevk: and I disagree.
# [11:42] <karlcow> It's a rhetorical way for polarizing the debate, which doesn't help.
# [11:43] <karlcow> it's like saying Opera, Mozilla, Microsoft have a soul. Same. Exact same. They have interests, a set of described values (sometimes).
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# [11:51] <foolip> annevk, where was that quote from?
# [11:52] <foolip> Lachy, congratulations! (what am I congratulating you about?)
# [11:52] <annevk> foolip: mozilla.dev.planning
# [11:53] <Lachy> foolip, https://twitter.com/Lachy/status/390431332766982144
# [11:53] <foolip> Lachy, congratulations indeed!
# [11:53] <Lachy> I was on holiday in the Maldives last week
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# [11:55] <jgraham> Lachy: You should have waited 24 days
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# [11:58] <jgraham> karlcow: I don't think people have souls either, but it doesn't mean that I can't understand what is meant when they are mentioned
# [11:59] <Lachy> jgraham, we're having the engagement party on the 9 November. That is day 1024.
# [12:00] <karlcow> jgraham: ;) I think I agree with the first part. I still disagree with the second. What $ORG is doing is part of its constituencies, it evolves with what the constituency is made of. :)
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# [12:01] <annevk> Nah, it also depends on leadership. The patent policy happened over the dead body of some members.
# [12:01] <annevk> The whole "W3C is not responsible for anything" spiel is a half-truth.
# [12:01] <Ms2ger> It's not responsible for anything good? ;)
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# [12:04] <jgraham> karlcow: Even if you believe that (which I think I don't), W3C is still free to choose its constituents
# [12:05] <karlcow> annevk: agreed about leadership.
# [12:06] <karlcow> I never said W3C was not responsible either.
# [12:06] <karlcow> Mozilla, Microsoft, and Google are responsible for their actions too.
# [12:06] <karlcow> :)
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# [12:07] <karlcow> but we may have a different idea of what you put in "W3C" when we say the letters.
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# [12:09] <jgraham> Anyone know anything about London JS Conf?
# [12:11] <jgraham> Like, is it something that has happened before? How big is it?
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# [12:35] <annevk> MikeSmith: https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/d/msg/blink-dev/yujPcy889e4/0GN9eNO4koAJ
# [12:35] <annevk> (Rant by Kornel about AWebP. It's nice.)
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# [12:42] <MikeSmith> annevk: thanks
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# [12:42] <MikeSmith> yeah, classic kornel
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# [12:46] <karlcow> oh and agreed with Henri on this one http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2013Oct/0052.html
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# [13:04] <MikeSmith> karlcow: I think one thing we can all agree on is that http://twoproblems.com/ is good for the Web
# [13:05] <MikeSmith> and that porneL should be made Minister of Education
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# [13:05] <annevk> 'Some people, when confronted with a problem, think "I know, I'll check teh interwebs for teh codez" Now they have two videos of cats.'
# [13:05] <annevk> All the time...
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# [13:43] <zcorpan> Lachy: congrats! what happens on day 1,000,000?
# [13:48] <zcorpan> annevk: i thought the objection to Element.getElementsByTagName was that HTMLCollection has a named getter and it has bad perf in such cases.
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# [14:22] <annevk> zcorpan: the objection is that HTMLCollection is a terrible API
# [14:22] <zcorpan> ok
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# [16:30] <SimonSapin> jgraham: to test selectors, do you think it makes more sense to have reftest with a green square, or something JS-based?
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# [16:30] <jgraham> SimonSapin: js-based I would have thought
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# [16:31] <jgraham> It should be much faster to run, since you can test lots of things on a single page
# [16:31] <jgraham> (it does mean that it depends on js ofc, but even Servo is getting to the point where that's acceptable :)
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# [16:32] <darobin> oh please js-based
# [16:32] <darobin> green squares must die, if at all possible
# [16:32] <jgraham> Poor green squares :(
# [16:33] <jgraham> If you are testing rendering, green squares are good
# [16:33] <jgraham> But if you are just testing selector matching, that doesn't really depend on rendering
# [16:34] <darobin> yeah yeah I know
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# [17:16] <SimonSapin> js-based means cssselect is out :/
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# [17:16] <SimonSapin> (and by extension WeasyPrint)
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# [17:17] <jgraham> But it does mean everyone else gets a factor of 100 in runtime or something
# [17:17] <SimonSapin> or it could be a JS harness that uses text/json/whatever static data
# [17:17] <jgraham> Sure
# [17:18] <jgraham> querySelector[All] already has tests, if that helps
# [17:18] <darobin> in fact that's even a very good idea, since if needed you could just generate a lot of green squares from it
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# [17:19] <SimonSapin> jgraham: https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/tree/master/selectors-api ? Interesting
# [17:19] * Ms2ger needs to poke Servo some more
# [17:21] <SimonSapin> jgraham: are these based on testharness.js?
# [17:22] * Ms2ger clicks on one
# [17:22] <Ms2ger> Yes
# [17:23] <zcorpan> jgraham: what does ^M mean in https://critic.hoppipolla.co.uk/showfile?sha1=4536ea21c7f33904626e6e72a06c2a59dc499f51&path=cors/resources/cors-headers.asis&review=368 ?
# [17:23] <jgraham> See also: self.assertEquals("Some Status", resp.msg) self.assertEquals("test-value", resp.info()["test-header"])
# [17:23] <jgraham> Sigh
# [17:23] <jgraham> See also: http://w3c-test.org/web-platform-tests/master/selectors-api/level1-baseline.html
# [17:24] <jgraham> SimonSapin: ^
# [17:24] <jgraham> zcorpan: It's a CR, I hope]
# [17:25] <zcorpan> ah, that makes sense. first line should have that also, right?
# [17:26] <jgraham> Yeah, good point
# [17:26] * zcorpan adds an issue
# [17:29] <jgraham> Probably also need to ensure that the repo is configured not to touch line endings
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# [17:30] <Ms2ger> jgraham, took me a while to figure out you didn't mean CR :)
# [17:31] <jgraham> I did mean CR :p
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# [18:02] <jgraham> Oh joy. longdesc tests. I wonder what happens if I reject them all on the basis that they're not in the spec.
# [18:03] <jgraham> Oh, I guess they don't claim to be
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# [18:08] <zcorpan> © chaals
# [18:09] <gsnedders> jgraham: Approve them, on grounds that you can then mark them at risk due to implementation lack.
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# [18:28] <annevk> Pretty sure I commented on <iframe>'s weird loading model before. An error event for 4xx would never fly...
# [18:29] <jgraham> Hmm, I wonder if the © is actually a problem
# [18:30] <annevk> However, I don't think we have ever defined that "http://test:test/ " and "http://test.invalid/ " should give different results for <iframe>...
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# [19:57] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
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# [22:30] <Hixie_> i don't understand the w3c bugzilla
# [22:30] <Hixie_> i do a search, i walk down the bugs in that search one by one, and sometimes, i end up on a bug that isn't in the search
# [22:30] <Hixie_> it's like it gets confused as to which bug list i'm looking at
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# [22:41] <foxtrotwhiskey> Are you doing multiple searches while paging through one list? I think it only works right on your most recent search.
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# [22:43] <Hixie_> i'm definitely doing multiple searches, but this is happening without intevening searches.
# [22:43] <Hixie_> like, search, search, search, open bug, submit, submit, next, next, submit, woah, what bug is this
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# [23:08] <Hixie_> annevk: so what's the story on https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=22296 ? (microtasks)
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# [23:37] <annevk> Hixie_: wycats wants a model that he has found works well for systems such as ember.js; Rafael questions whether that model is always better and worth the added complexity
# [23:38] <annevk> Hixie_: note that Rafael would like wycats to be correct, as he's trying to address the same kind of use cases
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# [23:42] <jgraham> Hixie_: presumably W3C bugzilla is required to show you a random selection of bugs to better reflect the interests of the Member organisations
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# [23:45] <Hixie_> annevk: so should i be making changes?
# [23:45] <annevk> Hixie_: so... I recommend pinging rafaelw
# [23:45] <Hixie_> rafaelw: ping
# [23:46] <annevk> Hixie_: it's starting to become somewhat important now promises and Object.observe() are closer to shipping
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# [23:47] <annevk> Hixie_: so how they queue relative to mutation observer stuff will become observable and we'll have to figure out a story here
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# [23:48] <Hixie_> annevk: agreed, i just don't know what i should be speccing
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# Session Close: Thu Oct 24 00:00:00 2013
The end :)