/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2013-10-25 / end

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  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  111. # [03:59] <rniwa> MikeSmith: hi
  112. # [03:59] <rniwa> Hixie_: yt?
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  118. # [04:10] <Hixie_> rniwa: vaguely
  119. # [04:10] <rniwa> Hixie_: did you see my thread about async iframe load?
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  121. # [04:10] <rniwa> Hixie_: I'd appreciate your help if could either clarify the currently spec'ed behavior
  122. # [04:11] <rniwa> Hixie_: or if you can change the spec to either one of existing behaviors (except sync behavior webkit/blink browsers exhibit)
  123. # [04:11] <rniwa> i.e. either IE or FF behavior
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  145. # [05:20] <zewt> cool, youtube managed to break scrolling in chrome on macs
  146. # [05:20] <zewt> on the trackpad, anyway
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  150. # [05:35] <Hixie_> rniwa: in whatwg@?
  151. # [05:37] <Hixie_> rniwa: i haven't looked in detail, but as far as i can tell, the last e-mail describes what the spec does?
  152. # [05:37] <Hixie_> rniwa: i'll try to look tomorrow
  153. # [05:38] <Hixie_> rniwa: (remind me when you get online tomorrow so i don't forget!)
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  174. # [06:22] <rniwa> Hixie_: okay, thanks
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  226. # [09:29] <zcorpan> was there tests for reflecting attributes somewhere?
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  228. # [09:32] * zcorpan finds https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/blob/master/html/dom/elements-metadata.js
  229. # [09:33] <Ms2ger> Right, Aryeh's
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  233. # [09:46] <MikeSmith> there is no standard for document.charset, right?
  234. # [09:47] <MikeSmith> should be document.charsetSet per the Encoding spec?
  235. # [09:47] <Ms2ger> I think the standard is "drop it"
  236. # [09:49] <Ms2ger> http://w3c-test.org/web-platform-tests/master/dom/historical.html agrees
  237. # [09:50] <MikeSmith> Ms2ger: ok
  238. # [09:50] <MikeSmith> but document.charsetSet isn't historical though
  239. # [09:50] <MikeSmith> it's current per the Encoding spec
  240. # [09:50] <MikeSmith> right?
  241. # [09:51] <Ms2ger> That's specced in DOM
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  243. # [09:51] <MikeSmith> oh
  244. # [09:51] <MikeSmith> thanks
  245. # [09:51] <Ms2ger> Np
  246. # [09:55] <zcorpan> any opinions about https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23627 Move offsetParent et al from HTMLElement to Element?
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  253. # [10:09] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: why?
  254. # [10:09] <MikeSmith> why does Blink implement them that way?
  255. # [10:09] <zcorpan> blink does it
  256. # [10:09] <zcorpan> oh, dunno
  257. # [10:10] <MikeSmith> I wonder if it'd prudent to assume they have good reason..
  258. # [10:10] <zcorpan> maybe someone thought they'd be useful on <svg> elements?
  259. # [10:10] <zcorpan> or maybe it was just the way it was implemented way back when
  260. # [10:11] <zcorpan> wonder what ie does
  261. # [10:11] <MikeSmith> it seems like there's probably no downside to moving them
  262. # [10:12] <zcorpan> presto has them on Element too
  263. # [10:16] <zcorpan> oops, forgot the doctype when testing ie
  264. # [10:19] <zcorpan> only HTMLElement in ie9/10
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  266. # [10:23] <zcorpan> annevk-cloud: ping https://critic.hoppipolla.co.uk/r/300
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  270. # [10:28] <MikeSmith> what if anything does testharness.js actually use meta@assert for?
  271. # [10:30] <MikeSmith> meta@name=assert
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  275. # [10:42] <zcorpan> testharness.js itself doesn't use it i think
  276. # [10:51] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: ok
  277. # [10:56] <MikeSmith> so after re-trying to use github for test-review comments I don't think I'll do that any more because it makes me remember why critic is better
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  279. # [10:56] <MikeSmith> sorry tobie
  280. # [10:59] <MikeSmith> critic is better both for the reviewers and for the people submitting tests for review
  281. # [10:59] <MikeSmith> the built-in github stuff is not a review system, it's a commenting system
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  304. # [12:02] <annevk> zcorpan: offset* is quite a terrible API, that's why it's defined on HTMLElement
  305. # [12:02] <annevk> zcorpan: sorry about the URL tests :/
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  307. # [12:08] <zcorpan> annevk: ok
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  314. # [12:38] <darobin> MikeSmith: yeah, I just wish the frontend code for Critic were separated from the backend so that it would be easier to tweak and improve it
  315. # [12:41] <MikeSmith> darobin: I wish the critic UI sucked less so there'd be no need to spend much time improving it :)
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  317. # [12:43] <jgraham> after a while you stop noticing the UI
  318. # [12:43] <jgraham> Like the matrix
  319. # [12:44] <darobin> MikeSmith: heh, yeah
  320. # [12:44] <jgraham> Except that in this case you mostly see "issue", "bug", "bad whitespace"
  321. # [12:44] <darobin> jgraham: I'm not quite there yet...
  322. # [12:44] <jgraham> Which is quite a bit less exciting ;)
  323. # [12:44] <darobin> Issue Smith
  324. # [12:45] <jgraham> (I agree that the UI could be improved, and that the particular nature of the code makes this less easy to achieve than it could be)
  325. # [12:47] <darobin> jgraham: yeah, I poked through the code to see if I could do something, but all the HTML is pretty much hardcoded
  326. # [12:47] <jgraham> (but the flip side is that it went from "doesn't exist" to "better than any other code review system we tried at Opera" in a few months)
  327. # [12:47] <darobin> yeah, I'm not dissing it
  328. # [12:48] <darobin> just a bit annoyed that I can't tweak it without starting from a major refactoring
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  330. # [12:49] <jgraham> Well the HTML is hardcoded in the sense that it uses a kind of code-based HTML generation system that goes in a python file rather than in an external template
  331. # [12:49] <MikeSmith> darobin: I think I'm not there yet either. It's like the scene in the Blues Brothers where Jake finds out a noisy train runs just a few feet away right outside to the window of the bed where he needs to sleep, and he says, How often does the train come by? and then Elwood says, So often you won't even notice it.
  332. # [12:49] <darobin> MikeSmith: lol
  333. # [12:50] <darobin> jgraham: that's pretty hardcoded :)
  334. # [12:52] <jgraham> I will grant you that it doesn't have a clear template/controller seperation
  335. # [12:56] <darobin> ideally, for things that are really apps like this, I prefer to have a backend that does nothing more than provide a JSON interface, and let the frontend handle all of the UI on the client
  336. # [12:57] * falken_gardening is now known as falken_away
  337. # [12:57] <darobin> basically move everything from PAGES into OPERATIONS
  338. # [12:57] <darobin> the one thing it makes harder is extensions
  339. # [12:59] <jgraham> So someone made a backend that exposed the data as JSON
  340. # [12:59] <jgraham> *extension
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  342. # [13:00] <jgraham> Anyway, I guess if you are serious about working on this you should talk to jl
  343. # [13:00] <darobin> oh, you mean that exposes all the things currently done as pages using an API? that's pretty cool
  344. # [13:00] <darobin> well, I'm half-serious
  345. # [13:00] <darobin> I would be serious if I had more bandwidth
  346. # [13:00] <darobin> I certainly don't have the bandwidth to do a full refactor
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  348. # [13:01] <darobin> but if there's an extension that at least exposes everything as JSON, I could possibly find the time to hack a UI
  349. # [13:01] <jgraham> Well, like I say you should talk to jl
  350. # [13:02] <darobin> where's jl?
  351. # [13:03] <jgraham> @opera.com
  352. # [13:03] <darobin> ah, gotcha
  353. # [13:03] <darobin> do you know where that extension is?
  354. # [13:03] <jgraham> I don't know if it was ever released anywhere. I don't remember who made it
  355. # [13:05] <molsson> I think it was Alexey Feldgendler that did the JSON extension
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  372. # [13:50] <MikeSmith> so if the Notification API does end up being exposed to workers, I guess that'd actually make Notification.permission useful for something
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  376. # [13:52] <MikeSmith> for the normal case I still don't see when it's actually ever necessary to directly check .permission rather than just calling requestPermission and having it automatically check the permission state
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  381. # [14:07] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: about https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23627 is there a precedent for moving members from HTMLElement to Element?
  382. # [14:07] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: yeah, e.g. id
  383. # [14:08] <zcorpan> innerHTML
  384. # [14:08] <MikeSmith> ok
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  390. # [14:21] <MikeSmith> anybody here build chromium from sources in the last couple days?
  391. # [14:22] <MikeSmith> I asked this on #chromium but didn't get any response
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  393. # [14:22] <MikeSmith> gclient sync is failing for me with "Fetching origin... error: index-pack died of signal 10... fatal: index-pack failed"
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  395. # [14:26] <annevk> https://twitter.com/antimattur/status/393714996951011328 <3
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  397. # [14:30] <MikeSmith> so that explains those glasses that HT wears
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  400. # [14:35] <zcorpan> TabAtkins: a comment above the h1 makes bikeshed not read the h1
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  414. # [14:57] <annevk> Hixie_: fffuuu
  415. # [14:57] <annevk> Hixie_: it's not classList.has; it's classList.contains()
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  426. # [15:34] <darobin> wow, I had no idea that someone had reused the Horse JS engine on mattur
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  430. # [15:36] <annevk> Pretty sure animattur and mattur are authored by the same person.
  431. # [15:40] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: are you able to fiddle with repo permissions? i want push access to the FXTF repo
  432. # [15:41] <MikeSmith> zcorpan:
  433. # [15:41] <MikeSmith> 
  434. # [15:42] * zcorpan nods
  435. # [15:42] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: yeah I can but away from PC now
  436. # [15:42] <zcorpan> ok, no rush :-)
  437. # [15:42] <MikeSmith> will be beck in about 90 minutes
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  445. # [16:02] <darobin> bah, clicked a link by mistake, lost my critic review :(
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  450. # [16:05] <darobin> ah, no, it only half lost the review...
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  455. # [16:16] <jgraham> darobin: Which review?
  456. # [16:17] <darobin> your big python change
  457. # [16:18] <darobin> and mostly sputtering at critic :)
  458. # [16:19] <darobin> jumping between the list of files and the code view is driving me positively insane
  459. # [16:20] <darobin> jgraham: there seem to be quite a few changes in there that aren't related to the functionality
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  462. # [16:23] <Hixie_> annevk: try now
  463. # [16:23] <jgraham> darobin: Yeah, for reviews that have a lot of changes that does get pretty annoying
  464. # [16:23] <jgraham> Well a lot of files changed
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  466. # [16:24] <jgraham> Which changes are unrelated?
  467. # [16:24] <jgraham> I made some fixes to tests that were brokwn
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  470. # [16:26] <darobin> jgraham: I don't know, right now I'm just going through the bits that seem obvious to get them out of the way
  471. # [16:26] <darobin> I saw some fixes that are indeed good fixes, but don't touch PHP->PY in any way
  472. # [16:27] <darobin> I mean, it's great that you're fixing tests too, but it would make a large review like that easier if you did so separately :)
  473. # [16:27] <darobin> also, some files seem to have seen only white space change
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  475. # [16:28] <jgraham> darobin: Yeah, but it would also have been a nightmare to actually make the changes :)
  476. # [16:28] <darobin> fair enough, I'm not complaining, just bitching because I'm getting seasick from all the scrolling critic is putting me through
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  478. # [16:29] <darobin> I wish the code view just opened under the file, or at least that there were a link back to the position in the list
  479. # [16:29] <jgraham> The errors I fixed were spotted because I was running the tests which required the changes needed to run the tests
  480. # [16:29] <jgraham> Yes, I totally agree
  481. # [16:30] <zewt> ffff i need FileSaver
  482. # [16:30] <darobin> jgraham: what is utils.js's token() used for?
  483. # [16:30] <darobin> oh, it's a uuid generator
  484. # [16:30] <jgraham> darobin: Yes
  485. # [16:30] <jgraham> It's needed for the stash stuff
  486. # [16:31] <jgraham> You have to pass in a uuid
  487. # [16:31] <jgraham> (as they key)
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  490. # [16:36] <jgraham> darobin: Checking things are per-spec isn't really in the spirit of testing :)
  491. # [16:37] <zewt> heh, aw snap'd chrome with a data: url
  492. # [16:37] <Ms2ger> jgraham, eh?
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  495. # [16:40] <darobin> jgraham: wait, what?
  496. # [16:41] <jgraham> Oh, I see that sentence didn't make sense outside my head
  497. # [16:41] <Ms2ger> It did make sense there?
  498. # [16:41] <jgraham> I mean only allowing spec-conformant input as part of tets isn't really in the spirit of testing
  499. # [16:42] <Ms2ger> Yes, but that's not what you said ;)
  500. # [16:42] <jgraham> c.f. http://critic.hoppipolla.co.uk/showcomment?chain=653
  501. # [16:42] <jgraham> Well it is if you assume that "things" are "inputs"
  502. # [16:43] <Ms2ger> Maybe
  503. # [16:45] <jgraham> Anyway, to distract you from my inability to form a coherent sentence http://hoppipolla.co.uk/410/coverage/
  504. # [16:45] <jgraham> Might be the coverage from running all the web-platform-tests
  505. # [16:45] <darobin> jgraham: oh, that
  506. # [16:46] <darobin> jgraham: that's why I phrased it as a question (admittedly, that could have been clearer outside my head, too)
  507. # [16:46] <Ms2ger> jgraham, that sucks :)
  508. # [16:46] <jgraham> (obviously most of this data is not useful. Would be good to figure out what the right set of files/modules to include would be)
  509. # [16:46] <darobin> if it's meant to be a friendly helper that gives you a redirect when you need one, then it should test that you're asking for something sensible
  510. # [16:47] <darobin> but if it's meant to be a nasty thing that checks you're not doing stupid stuff on redirects, then indeed it should just do whatever :)
  511. # [16:47] <darobin> I just couldn't figure out which just from looking at it
  512. # [16:47] <jgraham> I think it's OK for it to have sharp edges
  513. # [16:47] <Ms2ger> Also implausible
  514. # [16:47] <darobin> jgraham: rofl, I love what you did with the red there
  515. # [16:48] <Ms2ger> No tests that get htmlelement.title?
  516. # [16:48] <Ms2ger> jgraham, does that include the reflection tests?
  517. # [16:48] <jgraham> Ms2ger: Hmm. did I mention that I only just generated this data
  518. # [16:49] <jgraham> And haven't looked at it yet :)
  519. # [16:49] <Ms2ger> jgraham, well, I don't believe what I see ;)
  520. # [16:49] <jgraham> And might well have some it wrong :)
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  526. # [16:52] <jgraham> It should in theory have included everything. But maybe gcov gets upset with multiple processes writing the files at the same time?
  527. # [16:53] <annevk> Hixie_: works, ta!
  528. # [16:53] <Ms2ger> That seems plausible
  529. # [16:54] <jgraham> It does. Sadly it takes an hour to run all the tests one at a time
  530. # [16:54] <jgraham> But I guess I'm not going anywhere for the next hour!
  531. # [16:56] <annevk> darobin: https://critic.hoppipolla.co.uk/showcomment?chain=653 you don't wanna do that
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  533. # [16:56] <annevk> darobin: e.g. you want to test 702 with a Location header and observe it not following the redirect
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  535. # [16:59] <darobin> annevk: see comments above
  536. # [16:59] <darobin> (hence the question form)
  537. # [16:59] <darobin> it depends on what that script is meant to do, which is not indicated
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  539. # [17:01] <jgraham> Yeah, so I think that the issue about needing a docstring is fair
  540. # [17:01] <darobin> I'm pretty sure it won't be too taxing for your coding ability
  541. # [17:02] <darobin> heh, according to Critic 32% done, 67% remaining — gotta love computers
  542. # [17:02] <wilhelm> It may be philosophical. Nothing is ever _done_.
  543. # [17:03] <jgraham> It's quite fun when it decides something is 99.999% done
  544. # [17:03] <jgraham> In my experience, those reviews never are :)
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  551. # [17:13] <jgraham> darobin: Thanks for all your review btw
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  555. # [17:23] <darobin> jgraham: no worries, thanks for coding it up in the first place
  556. # [17:23] <darobin> I can tell you had a blast updating the websockets tests
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  560. # [17:32] <annevk> If you say, return all of list X with each of X separated by Y. Does that imply you return nothing if X is empty?
  561. # [17:33] <Ms2ger> Sure
  562. # [17:33] <annevk> Well I guess that's what it said today, so I'll go with that for now.
  563. # [17:42] * MikeSmith looks around for zcorpan
  564. # [17:42] <annevk> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/xhr looks kinda scary
  565. # [17:43] <annevk> MikeSmith: any chance the description field for XHR can also mention xhr.spec.whatwg.org?
  566. # [17:43] <MikeSmith> "Initial commit for Level 1."
  567. # [17:45] <MikeSmith> annevk: sure
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  570. # [17:47] <annevk> MikeSmith: seems you might also want to fix the owner of that dvcs.w3.org component if you care
  571. # [17:47] <MikeSmith> will do
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  573. # [17:51] <MikeSmith> annevk: check the description now
  574. # [17:51] <MikeSmith> that probably won't get me in any trouble
  575. # [17:52] <MikeSmith> good thing we didn't have this conversation on a public channel where somebody could point plh to the logs when they complain
  576. # [17:52] * MikeSmith will change the owner part now
  577. # [17:53] <Ms2ger> Interesting
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  590. # [18:10] <MikeSmith> "an all-sing, all-dance script of amazingness" https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/d/msg/blink-dev/fnWX8n6JrTg/iCwZ8mmOBdUJ
  591. # [18:10] * Quits: sgalineau (~sylvaing@192.150.10.205) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  592. # [18:12] <annevk> So in particular https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/xhr seems to now have descended into monkey patching hell where they take some fixes and not others and don't even discuss that on the list
  593. # [18:13] <jgraham> Woah
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  595. # [18:14] <jgraham> Is Dirke not on public-test-infra?
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  597. # [18:18] <MikeSmith> jgraham: he is
  598. # [18:19] <MikeSmith> at least his e-mail address is
  599. # [18:19] <MikeSmith> @chromium.org
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  602. # [18:21] <jgraham> Interesting
  603. # [18:21] <MikeSmith> jgraham: oh I guess you're reading the blink-dev thread
  604. # [18:22] <jgraham> MikeSmith: Yes
  605. # [18:22] <MikeSmith> mention of PHO
  606. # [18:22] <jgraham> Although I now have a read/write relationship with it
  607. # [18:22] <MikeSmith> aka PHP
  608. # [18:22] <MikeSmith> jgraham: time to use the write function :-)
  609. # [18:23] <MikeSmith> oh you did
  610. # [18:23] <jgraham> Yes
  611. # [18:23] <jgraham> But it's nice to know that you got it
  612. # [18:23] <jgraham> I don't really trust Google Groups
  613. # [18:24] <jgraham> s/ Groups/
  614. # [18:24] <annevk> I got it, via email
  615. # [18:26] <MikeSmith> speaking of mailing lists, for following Web-platform-related work in Gecko, what lists might should I be on along with dev-platform@lists.mozilla.org?
  616. # [18:27] <Ms2ger> There's some smaller ones... m.d.t.layout, perhaps
  617. # [18:27] <Ms2ger> Maybe m.d.servo
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  619. # [18:30] <MikeSmith> Ms2ger: ok
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  621. # [18:32] <annevk> I wish dev.platform was a bit more focused
  622. # [18:34] <MikeSmith> it does seem to cover a lot more ground than other browser-engine -dev lists
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  625. # [18:35] <MikeSmith> not that it's uninteresting
  626. # [18:42] <Ms2ger> Here's the spec:
  627. # [18:42] <Ms2ger> http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml-modularization/abstract_modules.html#s_targetmodule
  628. # [18:42] <Ms2ger> With quote marks around it, of course
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  639. # [18:56] <annevk> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-media/2013Mar/0067.html "W3C web platform" oh god
  640. # [18:56] <annevk> I think it's time to go home
  641. # [18:59] <Jasper> i really hate that encrypted content is called premium content
  642. # [18:59] <Jasper> like, I don't really care about EME that much. it's a necessary evil imo. but "premium content" just pushes my buttons
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  645. # [19:00] <hober> i think every single term that people have come up with press someone's buttons
  646. # [19:00] <hober> so it's best not to bikeshed it too much
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  648. # [19:00] <Jasper> yeah, that's true
  649. # [19:00] <jgraham> Well, in this case "Premium Content" is basically advertising from netflix
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  651. # [19:00] <Jasper> not trying to change anything, just sort of ranting off-topic
  652. # [19:01] <annevk> Giving web platform gets qualifiers seems way worse... Anyway...
  653. # [19:01] <annevk> s/gets//
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  655. # [19:02] <jgraham> annevk: I think that was intended to have the opposite effect :)
  656. # [19:02] <MikeSmith> the VSOP Web Platform
  657. # [19:03] <MikeSmith> aged 20 years
  658. # [19:03] <Jasper> enterprise web-scale platforce
  659. # [19:03] <annevk> XO is where it's at MikeSmith
  660. # [19:03] <MikeSmith> well I drink Old Crow and like it
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  662. # [19:04] <jgraham> Nothing to do with the Vienna Symphonic Orchestra Project then?
  663. # [19:04] <MikeSmith> brandy confuses me
  664. # [19:05] <Jasper> it has everything to do with Vienna Symphonic Orchestra Project, jgraham
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  667. # [19:10] <MikeSmith> long earthquake here
  668. # [19:10] <MikeSmith> seems to be getting stronger, oddly
  669. # [19:10] <hober> MikeSmith: :(
  670. # [19:11] <MikeSmith> http://quake.twiple.jp/quake/view/20131026021102
  671. # [19:11] <MikeSmith> 7.3 it seems
  672. # [19:12] <MikeSmith> up in Fukushima
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  687. # [19:39] <bholley> Hixie_: ping
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  689. # [19:40] <bholley> jgraham: ping
  690. # [19:40] * Ms2ger hides
  691. # [19:41] <bholley> Ms2ger: ping :-)
  692. # [19:41] <Ms2ger> Not here!
  693. # [19:41] <bholley> Ms2ger: do you know if any spec defines where we should cut off stack traces?
  694. # [19:41] <bholley> Ms2ger: like, when we spin the event loop, for example
  695. # [19:41] <Ms2ger> No idea
  696. # [19:42] <bholley> we obviously don't want stack traces to go all the way up
  697. # [19:42] <Ms2ger> TC39 wanted to maybe spec stacks, I think
  698. # [19:42] <Ms2ger> annevk, ^
  699. # [19:42] <Hixie_> bholley: here
  700. # [19:42] <bholley> Hixie_: see my question above
  701. # [19:42] <bholley> Hixie_: I'd thought that this was specced in terms of the script entry point, but I don't see anything of the sort in the spec
  702. # [19:42] <Hixie_> bholley: i don't even know of a spec that requires stack traces in the first place
  703. # [19:43] <bholley> Hixie_: (new Error()).stack?
  704. # [19:43] <Hixie_> that's probably specced in JS land
  705. # [19:43] <Ms2ger> If it's specced at all by now
  706. # [19:43] <bholley> Hixie_: well, it's our problem now in HTML5
  707. # [19:43] <bholley> Hixie_: because we specced an event loop
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  709. # [19:44] <Hixie_> how does the event loop affect this?
  710. # [19:44] <bholley> Hixie_: well, if you spin an event loop
  711. # [19:44] <bholley> Hixie_: does your stack trace see through that?
  712. # [19:44] <Domenic_> yes please!
  713. # [19:44] <Domenic_> long stack traces would be a killer dev tools feature
  714. # [19:44] <Hixie_> bholley: that's defined in the spec
  715. # [19:45] <Domenic_> user-land libraries are emulating that right now using V8 stack trace API and duck-punching every async method to record the stack at call time then stitch it together with subsequent ones.
  716. # [19:45] <bholley> Hixie_: where?
  717. # [19:45] <Hixie_> bholley: spin the event loop actually doesn't do a nested event loop, per the spec. it ends the previous task entirely, saves off its current state in a continuation, and returns back to the original event loop.
  718. # [19:45] <Hixie_> bholley: then it queues a task when it's ready to resume, and the task resumes the previous state
  719. # [19:45] <Hixie_> bholley: so there's nothing unusual on the stack
  720. # [19:46] <Hixie_> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#spin-the-event-loop
  721. # [19:46] <bholley> Hixie_: so, per spec, stack traces don't see through nested event loops
  722. # [19:46] <Hixie_> right
  723. # [19:46] <Hixie_> cos there aren't any
  724. # [19:46] <Hixie_> "spin the event loop" is really "queue a continuation"
  725. # [19:47] <bholley> Hixie_: ok. And as far as the spec is concerned, there's no reason stack traces wouldn't see through event dispatches and whatnot?
  726. # [19:47] <Hixie_> well
  727. # [19:47] <Hixie_> i don't see anything in HTML that would say one way or the other
  728. # [19:47] <Hixie_> or DOM (which specs dispatches)
  729. # [19:47] <Hixie_> but
  730. # [19:47] <Hixie_> the real question
  731. # [19:48] <Hixie_> is what the spec for Error.stack is
  732. # [19:48] <Hixie_> and i can't find out
  733. # [19:48] <Hixie_> can't find one, even
  734. # [19:48] <Domenic_> there's a ES strawman
  735. # [19:48] <Hixie_> nothing in http://people.mozilla.org/~jorendorff/es6-draft.html#sec-properties-of-the-error-prototype-object or anywhere near it
  736. # [19:48] <Domenic_> didn't make the ES6 cutoff, too much edge-case debate IIRC
  737. # [19:48] <Domenic_> http://wiki.ecmascript.org/doku.php?id=strawman:error_stack
  738. # [19:48] <bholley> Domenic_: ok. So currently this stuff is unspecced, and we're still working it out?
  739. # [19:49] <Ms2ger> Ah, good old strawmen
  740. # [19:49] * Hixie_ waves a "please join the living standard movement" flag near the ES spec's office
  741. # [19:49] <Domenic_> bholley: yeah, i mean, i don't know what the HTML spec says about it, but I know the ES spec says nothing about error.stack
  742. # [19:49] <Hixie_> bholley: personally i would define it as being only the stack trace from the point where JS thinks it was invoked
  743. # [19:50] <Hixie_> bholley: so dispatching an event would reset the stack for the "child" "program"
  744. # [19:50] <Hixie_> bholley: but authors may prefer something else
  745. # [19:50] <Hixie_> bholley: i guess if dispatchEvent() can never go cross-origin, it's probably more useful to include it
  746. # [19:51] <Hixie_> bholley: as for spinning the event loop... maybe have something hanging off the stack object that says "and btw, here's the stacks for the various things currently waiting in a "spin the event loop" algorithm"
  747. # [19:51] <Hixie_> bholley: though that _can_ be cross-origin
  748. # [19:51] <Domenic_> in user space we've preferred to have separators where the "async" boundaries live, e.g. https://github.com/kriskowal/q#long-stack-traces or https://github.com/tlrobinson/long-stack-traces/#usage
  749. # [19:51] <bholley> Hixie_: that seems logical to me. But doesn't appear to jive with the current behavior of Gecko and Blink. http://bit.ly/16ylHO2
  750. # [19:51] <Hixie_> ah well if there's implementations and they're interoperable, i'd just go with that
  751. # [19:51] <Hixie_> (unless it's crazy)
  752. # [19:52] <bholley> Hixie_: well, I'm still trying to sort that part out
  753. # [19:53] <bholley> Domenic_: as in, formatting separators
  754. # [19:53] <bholley> Domenic_: I don't think we can cross async boundaries very easily in the platform
  755. # [19:54] <bholley> Hixie_: our long-term thinking was that we would just have one single stack
  756. # [19:54] <bholley> Hixie_: and filter out cross-origin stuff
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  758. # [19:54] <bholley> which is probably what Domenic_ wants
  759. # [19:55] <bholley> Domenic_: would Blink be interested in implementing something like that?
  760. # [19:58] <gsnedders> Hixie_: Part of the problem with Error.stack is some things (Closure used to, maybe still does?) rely on subtly different formats based on UA strings.
  761. # [19:58] <Hixie_> ew
  762. # [19:58] <Hixie_> shouldn't it be a structured array of tuples
  763. # [19:58] <Ms2ger> Hah
  764. # [19:58] <gsnedders> Hixie_: And seem very hard to get changed (i.e., the Opera code still relies on Futhark behaviour, never having gotten changed for Carakan despite having had patches made for it)
  765. # [19:58] * Quits: nimbu (~nimbu@192.150.10.205) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  766. # [19:59] <Hixie_> isn't that codebase dead
  767. # [19:59] <gsnedders> Closure?
  768. # [19:59] <gsnedders> Haha. No.
  769. # [19:59] * Joins: nimbu (~nimbu@sjfw1-a.adobe.com)
  770. # [19:59] <gsnedders> Still really actively developed.
  771. # [20:00] <gsnedders> Not used by so many things internally to Google, AFAIK, though
  772. # [20:00] <gsnedders> " At Google, it's used in Web Search, Maps, YouTube, Google Plus, Gmail, Docs, Sites, Books, Blogger, Calendar, Picasa Web Albums, and more. "
  773. # [20:00] <Hixie_> no, opera
  774. # [20:01] <gsnedders> Oh, yeah. Now.
  775. # [20:01] <bholley> gsnedders: yuck
  776. # [20:01] <bholley> gsnedders: would Closure get confused if we started including more stack frames?
  777. # [20:01] <gsnedders> But Carakan shipped in 2010, so three years of that bug being current and unfixed
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  779. # [20:01] <gsnedders> bholley: In what UA's codepath?
  780. # [20:02] <bholley> gsnedders: well, I'm mostly interested in Gecko
  781. # [20:02] <gsnedders> (Yes, it's horrible that that's even a relevant question.)
  782. # [20:02] <gsnedders> IIRC, Gecko would be fine.
  783. # [20:03] <bholley> gsnedders: who _wouldn't_ be fine, if I dare ask?
  784. # [20:03] <gsnedders> The WebKit codepath, I think.
  785. # [20:03] <bholley> gsnedders: why?
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  788. # [20:03] <gsnedders> bholley: Because it does things like length checks.
  789. # [20:04] <gsnedders> In quite bizarre ways.
  790. # [20:04] <gsnedders> (Disclaimer: I haven't looked at this in about a year, so it could've changed. I wouldn't have much hope, though)
  791. # [20:05] <gsnedders> AFAICT, what practically need be done is standardize SpiderMonkey's Error.stack, as that's what is most relied on.
  792. # [20:05] <gsnedders> However much it sucks. :(
  793. # [20:05] <bholley> gsnedders: ok. I'd really like to try including more stack frames
  794. # [20:05] <bholley> gsnedders: I guess we'll see
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  796. # [20:05] <gsnedders> bholley: I'd like to try that too. Not overly hopeful, though. :(
  797. # [20:06] <gsnedders> Carakan, FWIW, has both Error.stack (~SpiderMonkey behaviour), and Error.stacktrace (human readable, with more detail)
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  799. # [20:19] <Domenic_> bholley: I don't work for Blink, but I hope so. I have heard the Firefox dev tools guys might want to make long stack traces work, and then that could cause competitive pressure like it did for dev tools file blacklisting.
  800. # [20:20] <bholley> Domenic_: aren't you doing Web Components at Google?
  801. # [20:20] <Domenic_> One solution generally might be to give up on standardizing error.stack and try standardizing a more-useful array of tuples (error.stackFames or similar).
  802. # [20:20] <bholley> Domenic_: or are you purely at the spec level?
  803. # [20:20] <Domenic_> bholley: nope, haha. i work for a consultancy.
  804. # [20:21] <Domenic_> i happen to be doing the es6 promises spec, but just in my spare time.
  805. # [20:21] <bholley> oh, you're a different Dominic
  806. # [20:21] <bholley> er
  807. # [20:21] <bholley> yes
  808. # [20:21] <bholley> you are not Dominic
  809. # [20:21] <bholley> (Cooney)
  810. # [20:21] <Domenic_> ah right
  811. # [20:25] <gsnedders> Domenic_: On the other hand Error.stack isn't going away
  812. # [20:26] <Domenic_> gsnedders: yeah. but if there are compat constraints that *prevent* convergence, e.g. ua-sniffing dependent codepaths, can't imagine what to do to fix that...
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  818. # [20:31] <Ms2ger> Evangelism
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  826. # [20:40] <Hixie_> i hope rniwa is happy with my e-mail
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  909. # [23:18] <jgraham> bholley: We should really avoid mested event loops in servo. No good ever came of them
  910. # [23:18] <bholley> jgraham: you mean, design it like the spec does it?
  911. # [23:18] <jgraham> For example
  912. # [23:19] <bholley> jgraham: that requires a lot of help from the JS engine
  913. # [23:19] <bholley> in particualr, being able to pause execution
  914. # [23:19] <jgraham> hmm
  915. # [23:19] <bholley> the spec makes it sound easy, but it's not
  916. # [23:19] <bholley> especially because JS and C++/Rust interleave
  917. # [23:20] <bholley> how do you save all of that state without leaving it on the stack?
  918. # [23:20] <jgraham> Everything not-carakan sucks
  919. # [23:20] <bholley> jgraham: how does carakan do it?
  920. # [23:21] * jgraham can't type fast enoihh to have a real conversation; using a phone
  921. # [23:22] * bholley would be impressed if carakan could avoid this problem
  922. # [23:22] <jgraham> well opera, even pre carakan could pause the script engine
  923. # [23:22] <bholley> ah, to process events and be responsive, right?
  924. # [23:23] <jgraham> I don't remember if it could run different script whilst pausing one
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  926. # [23:23] <jgraham> right
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  928. # [23:25] <bholley> jgraham: so how does that work with C++ and JS interleaving?
  929. # [23:25] <jgraham> but I thought other browsers were at least different to gecko here and msybe simpler
  930. # [23:27] <jgraham> bholley: I am the wrong person to ask about the exact implementation
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The end :)