/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2013-10-28 / end

Options:

  1. # Session Start: Mon Oct 28 00:00:00 2013
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:17] * Joins: roadt__ (~roadt@36.7.147.100)
  4. # [00:18] * Joins: WesleyMcClane_ (~quassel@host102-86-dynamic.59-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it)
  5. # [00:18] * Quits: WesleyMcClane (~quassel@host183-29-dynamic.10-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
  6. # [00:27] * Quits: cabanier (~cabanier@c-98-237-137-173.hsd1.wa.comcast.net) (Quit: Leaving.)
  7. # [00:29] * Joins: WebJonas (~Jonas@166.201.202.84.customer.cdi.no)
  8. # [00:29] <annevk-cloud> Ms2ger: so yeah… that bug getting resolved positively depends on someone answering the overall question differently from me
  9. # [00:30] <annevk-cloud> Have not seen a complete argument in that direction yet
  10. # [00:36] * Joins: cabanier (~cabanier@c-98-237-137-173.hsd1.wa.comcast.net)
  11. # [00:36] * Quits: cabanier (~cabanier@c-98-237-137-173.hsd1.wa.comcast.net) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  12. # [00:36] * Joins: cabanier (~cabanier@c-98-237-137-173.hsd1.wa.comcast.net)
  13. # [00:55] * Quits: SonicX (~quassel@ip98-180-43-211.ga.at.cox.net) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
  14. # [00:58] * Quits: WebJonas (~Jonas@166.201.202.84.customer.cdi.no) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
  15. # [02:11] * Quits: smaug____ (~chatzilla@cs164155.pp.htv.fi) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
  16. # [02:17] * Joins: Goplat (~goplat@reactos/developer/Goplat)
  17. # [02:23] * falken_away is now known as falken_gardening
  18. # [02:41] * Joins: frustrum (~frustrum@128.54.214.195)
  19. # [02:50] * Joins: reyre (~reyre@83-244-151-250.cust-83.exponential-e.net)
  20. # [03:03] * Quits: ricea (~ricea@2401:fa00:4:1000:b6b5:2fff:feca:47f8) (Quit: Leaving.)
  21. # [03:06] * Quits: reyre (~reyre@83-244-151-250.cust-83.exponential-e.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  22. # [03:10] * Joins: baku (~baku@173-167-127-66-sfba.hfc.comcastbusiness.net)
  23. # [03:11] * Joins: reyre (~reyre@83-244-151-250.cust-83.exponential-e.net)
  24. # [03:12] * Quits: CSN (~csn@cust-196-155-108-94.dyn.as47377.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  25. # [03:15] * Quits: falken_gardening (~falkengar@2401:fa00:4:1000:26be:5ff:fe0d:d7ea) (Remote host closed the connection)
  26. # [03:16] * Joins: falken (~falken@2401:fa00:4:1000:26be:5ff:fe0d:d7ea)
  27. # [03:16] * Joins: ricea (~ricea@2401:fa00:4:1000:b6b5:2fff:feca:47f8)
  28. # [03:16] * falken is now known as falken_gardening
  29. # [03:39] * Quits: reyre (~reyre@83-244-151-250.cust-83.exponential-e.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  30. # [03:53] * heycam is now known as heycam|away
  31. # [04:12] * DaveMethvin is now known as DaveMethvin|away
  32. # [04:14] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@50-0-164-83.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net)
  33. # [04:22] * heycam|away is now known as heycam
  34. # [04:28] * Quits: Guest59439 (~master@68-233-247-206.static.hvvc.us) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
  35. # [04:30] * Joins: weinig (~weinig@24.130.60.35)
  36. # [04:32] * Quits: baku (~baku@173-167-127-66-sfba.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  37. # [04:51] * heycam is now known as heycam|away
  38. # [05:03] * heycam|away is now known as heycam
  39. # [05:44] * Quits: weinig (~weinig@24.130.60.35) (Quit: weinig)
  40. # [05:53] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@50-0-164-83.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net) (Quit: tantek)
  41. # [06:04] * Quits: Goplat (~goplat@reactos/developer/Goplat) (Remote host closed the connection)
  42. # [06:23] * Quits: plutoniix (~plutoniix@node-19vy.pool-101-109.dynamic.totbb.net) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
  43. # [06:27] * Joins: plutoniix (~plutoniix@101.109.232.78)
  44. # [06:30] * Quits: plutoniix (~plutoniix@101.109.232.78) (Client Quit)
  45. # [06:57] * Joins: malaclyps (~Danny@gateway/tor-sasl/malaclyps)
  46. # [07:00] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@90-230-218-37-no135.tbcn.telia.com)
  47. # [07:30] * Joins: Smylers (~smylers@host86-128-219-55.range86-128.btcentralplus.com)
  48. # [07:43] * Joins: TuRnaD0 (~Thunderbi@x1-6-e0-46-9a-1e-fe-ca.k368.webspeed.dk)
  49. # [07:54] * Quits: netoholic (~boyan@77.71.96.54) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  50. # [07:56] * heycam is now known as heycam|away
  51. # [07:58] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@90-230-218-37-no135.tbcn.telia.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
  52. # [08:03] * Joins: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@193.190.253.150)
  53. # [08:03] <Ms2ger> annevk-cloud, it's resolved positively if you consider it ;)
  54. # [08:06] * Quits: roadt__ (~roadt@36.7.147.100) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  55. # [08:06] * Quits: yoav_ (~yoav@sdo26-1-78-245-148-181.fbx.proxad.net) (Read error: No route to host)
  56. # [08:12] * Joins: yoav (~yoav@sdo26-1-78-245-148-181.fbx.proxad.net)
  57. # [08:16] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@90-230-218-37-no135.tbcn.telia.com)
  58. # [08:20] * Joins: Martin1982 (~Martin198@541A8B36.cm-5-3c.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
  59. # [08:20] * Quits: Martin1982 (~Martin198@541A8B36.cm-5-3c.dynamic.ziggo.nl) (Client Quit)
  60. # [08:29] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachy@cm-84.215.104.248.getinternet.no) (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
  61. # [08:30] * Quits: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@193.190.253.150) (Quit: bbl)
  62. # [08:41] * Joins: bholley (~bholley@24-134-57-28-dynip.superkabel.de)
  63. # [08:42] <zcorpan> jgraham: now i get the following error when trying to start wptserve
  64. # [08:42] <zcorpan> from wptserve import server as wptserve, handlers
  65. # [08:42] <zcorpan> ImportError: cannot import name handlers
  66. # [08:42] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachy@cm-84.215.104.248.getinternet.no)
  67. # [08:45] * Quits: globbot (~logbot@lump.glob.com.au) (Remote host closed the connection)
  68. # [08:57] * Joins: roven (~roven@78-20-24-80.access.telenet.be)
  69. # [08:59] * Joins: foolip (~philip@83.218.67.122)
  70. # [09:00] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachy@cm-84.215.104.248.getinternet.no) (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
  71. # [09:01] * foolip is now known as philipj
  72. # [09:03] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachy@cm-84.215.104.248.getinternet.no)
  73. # [09:04] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachy@cm-84.215.104.248.getinternet.no) (Client Quit)
  74. # [09:10] * Joins: hasather (~hasather@guest.schibsted.no)
  75. # [09:11] * Quits: hasather (~hasather@guest.schibsted.no) (Remote host closed the connection)
  76. # [09:11] * Joins: hasather (~hasather@80.91.33.141)
  77. # [09:29] * Joins: roadt__ (~roadt@36.7.147.100)
  78. # [09:33] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachy@213.166.174.2)
  79. # [09:33] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachy@213.166.174.2) (Client Quit)
  80. # [09:33] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachy@213.166.174.2)
  81. # [09:35] <zcorpan> is there success in killing CDATASection?
  82. # [09:35] * Joins: rego (~rego@231.193.27.77.dynamic.mundo-r.com)
  83. # [09:37] <jgraham> zcorpan: Before I try to reproduce, did you git submodule update?
  84. # [09:40] <zcorpan> jgraham: no. did now but got an error
  85. # [09:40] <zcorpan> fatal: reference is not a tree: 6b980c514af67c6a8895d7779687229b43396491
  86. # [09:40] <zcorpan> Unable to checkout '6b980c514af67c6a8895d7779687229b43396491' in submodule path 'resources'
  87. # [09:41] <zcorpan> # On branch jgraham/python_review_2
  88. # [09:42] <zcorpan> i did `git pull; git submodule init; git submodule update --recursive`
  89. # [09:43] * Quits: roadt__ (~roadt@36.7.147.100) (Quit: 暂离)
  90. # [09:43] <jgraham> Hmm, try again?
  91. # [09:43] <zcorpan> same
  92. # [09:44] <zcorpan> # modified: resources (new commits)
  93. # [09:46] <jgraham> OK, it seems I had a commit in there that wasn't pushed to the W3C repo
  94. # [09:46] <jgraham> Could work now I have done that
  95. # [09:47] <zcorpan> yep, works now. thanks!
  96. # [09:48] * Joins: rego_ (~rego@231.193.27.77.dynamic.mundo-r.com)
  97. # [09:49] * Joins: cheron (~cheron@unaffiliated/cheron)
  98. # [09:51] <zcorpan> jgraham: hmm, there's a bug with the indexing pages. directories don't end with a trailing slash. so going from root to websockets to security links to /security with is 404
  99. # [09:51] * Quits: rego (~rego@231.193.27.77.dynamic.mundo-r.com) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
  100. # [09:54] * Quits: bholley (~bholley@24-134-57-28-dynip.superkabel.de) (Quit: bholley)
  101. # [09:56] <MikeSmith> anybody know anything about this meta@name="ResourceLoaderDynamicStyles" thing that Wikipedia and Mediawiki use?
  102. # [09:57] <MikeSmith> I'm trying to decide if I should just go ahead and add it to the validator
  103. # [10:00] * Joins: globbot (~logbot@lump.glob.com.au)
  104. # [10:04] <zcorpan> there's no non-rendering almost standards quirk, right?
  105. # [10:04] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: any news on FXTF?
  106. # [10:05] <MikeSmith> oh
  107. # [10:05] <MikeSmith> forgot
  108. # [10:05] <MikeSmith> lemme do it now
  109. # [10:05] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: for dvcs.w3.org, right?
  110. # [10:05] <jgraham> zcorpan: OK, I will fix
  111. # [10:05] <zcorpan> my user is spieters
  112. # [10:05] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: yeah
  113. # [10:06] <MikeSmith> npok
  114. # [10:06] <MikeSmith> oops
  115. # [10:06] <MikeSmith> ok checking now
  116. # [10:08] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: ok should be working now
  117. # [10:10] <zcorpan> nice way to resolve bugs http://www.w3.org/2011/webappsec/minutes/webappsec-minutes-27-Aug-2013.html#item03
  118. # [10:12] * Joins: ^esc (~esc-ape@178.115.133.18.wireless.dyn.drei.com)
  119. # [10:14] * Joins: cheron1 (~cheron@dslb-088-069-011-178.pools.arcor-ip.net)
  120. # [10:14] <MikeSmith> haha
  121. # [10:16] * Quits: cheron (~cheron@unaffiliated/cheron) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
  122. # [10:17] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: hmm, still get auth failed
  123. # [10:17] <MikeSmith> hmm
  124. # [10:18] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: you only have one w3c username, right?
  125. # [10:18] <zcorpan> yeah
  126. # [10:19] <zcorpan> should it work with user+password?
  127. # [10:20] <MikeSmith> yeah
  128. # [10:20] <MikeSmith> lemmme try right now myself
  129. # [10:20] <MikeSmith> with my credentials
  130. # [10:20] * Joins: bholley (~bholley@24-134-57-28-dynip.superkabel.de)
  131. # [10:21] * Joins: tomasf (~tomasf@77.72.97.10.c.fiberdirekt.net)
  132. # [10:23] <MikeSmith> so it works for me
  133. # [10:23] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: another thing I can try just for the heck of it is to add you to the "CSS-SVG Task Force"
  134. # [10:24] <MikeSmith> the ACLs allows anybody in that DB group to push
  135. # [10:24] <MikeSmith> OK if I add you there?
  136. # [10:24] <zcorpan> sure
  137. # [10:25] <MikeSmith> OK, I've added you
  138. # [10:25] <MikeSmith> so please try again
  139. # [10:25] <MikeSmith> I don't think it will make a difference but who knows
  140. # [10:25] * Quits: jorgepedret (~jorgepedr@70-36-56-110.dyn.novuscom.net) (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com)
  141. # [10:28] <MikeSmith> yeah error logs show 401 for earlier attempts
  142. # [10:39] * Quits: Kolombiken1 (~Adium@gateway.creuna.se) (Quit: Leaving.)
  143. # [10:39] * zcorpan testing ...
  144. # [10:40] <zcorpan> seems to work!
  145. # [10:40] <zcorpan> thanks MikeSmith
  146. # [10:40] <MikeSmith> cool
  147. # [10:43] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: btw I guess you already know there's a big delay when pushing to the csswg repo and the FXTF one too
  148. # [10:43] * Joins: darobin (~darobin@lns-bzn-27-82-248-47-198.adsl.proxad.net)
  149. # [10:43] <MikeSmith> it's expected due to stuff on the hg server side that Peter asked me to set up
  150. # [10:44] * Joins: charl_ (~charl@2001:67c:2564:524:92b1:1cff:fe89:ae5)
  151. # [10:48] * Joins: baku (~baku@173-167-127-66-sfba.hfc.comcastbusiness.net)
  152. # [10:55] * Joins: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@vpnf120.ugent.be)
  153. # [10:57] <hsivonen> Lots of words in a destined-to-be-WONTFIXed bug: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23646
  154. # [10:57] * falken_gardening is now known as falken_away
  155. # [10:57] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: any idea where the editor's draft of CORS is?
  156. # [10:59] <annevk-cloud> MikeSmith: fetch.spec.whatwg.org
  157. # [10:59] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: yeah
  158. # [10:59] <annevk-cloud> hsivonen: whoah
  159. # [11:00] <MikeSmith> annevk-cloud: :) I meant the WebAppSec one. Last I saw they still had your name on it as editor, which seems especially odd now that they've summarily closed bugs you raised against the spec.
  160. # [11:01] <MikeSmith> hmm, or are they not even maintaining a separate ED at all?
  161. # [11:03] * Joins: WebJonas (~Jonas@166.201.202.84.customer.cdi.no)
  162. # [11:04] * Quits: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@vpnf120.ugent.be) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  163. # [11:05] * Joins: barnabywalters (~barnabywa@46-239-239-203.tal.is)
  164. # [11:08] * Joins: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@vpna083.ugent.be)
  165. # [11:12] * Joins: WesleyMcClane (~quassel@host3-147-dynamic.11-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it)
  166. # [11:15] * Quits: WesleyMcClane_ (~quassel@host102-86-dynamic.59-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
  167. # [11:16] <zcorpan> why maintain a spec if you can INVALID the bugs?
  168. # [11:16] <zcorpan> (dunno where the spec is if there is one)
  169. # [11:20] <hsivonen> Whoa. Web MIDI. Is Chrome implementing that stuff?
  170. # [11:20] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: yeah I think they already have
  171. # [11:20] <MikeSmith> cwilso been working on it
  172. # [11:21] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: why Whoa? bad idea?
  173. # [11:25] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: also https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=836897 (re: Web MIDI)
  174. # [11:28] <odinho> The CORS-thingy is meant to go through the process about as it is now.
  175. # [11:31] * Quits: baku (~baku@173-167-127-66-sfba.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) (Quit: Leaving)
  176. # [11:31] * Joins: netoholic (~boyan@77.71.96.54)
  177. # [11:32] <MikeSmith> odinho: if that's how the group wants to do things, I won't complain but I guess it means the W3C spec is just going to become further irrelevant to implementors
  178. # [11:33] <MikeSmith> in which case the sooner it goes to Rec the better, I guess
  179. # [11:34] * Joins: joelcox (~joelcox@unaffiliated/joelcox)
  180. # [11:34] <odinho> CORS is not getting a frenzy of updates by annevk-cloud either. And yes, everyone is clear (I think) that the canonical spec is at fetch.spec.whatwg.org
  181. # [11:34] <odinho> At least that's how I think of it.
  182. # [11:34] <MikeSmith> ah OK
  183. # [11:40] <Ms2ger> zcorpan, bah, high-quality review comments :)
  184. # [11:43] <cwilso> Hsivonen: yup, chrome canary on osx has experimental web midi support. I also wrote an NPAPI-based plugin.
  185. # [11:43] <cwilso> And yes, please elaborate "whoa." :)
  186. # [11:45] <MikeSmith> http://chrislord.net/index.php/2013/10/28/sabbatical-over/ is a good read; "WebGL cannot be relied upon", "Canvas performance isn’t great", "Appcache is awful", "DOM rendering is slow" ...
  187. # [11:45] * Joins: adactio (~adactio@212.42.170.181)
  188. # [11:55] * Quits: WebJonas (~Jonas@166.201.202.84.customer.cdi.no) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
  189. # [11:55] * Joins: felipeduardo (~felipedua@189.115.44.34)
  190. # [11:59] <zcorpan> Ms2ger: sorry :-P
  191. # [12:00] <zcorpan> Ms2ger: you could review my PRs as payback :-)
  192. # [12:04] * DaveMethvin|away is now known as DaveMethvin
  193. # [12:05] * Quits: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@vpna083.ugent.be) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
  194. # [12:06] <zcorpan> does w3cmemes have a mod queue for new posts?
  195. # [12:08] <hsivonen> cwilso, MikeSmith: whoa as in "I didn't realize Google cared about MIDI peripherals."
  196. # [12:09] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: ah OK
  197. # [12:30] * Joins: WebJonas (~Jonas@166.201.202.84.customer.cdi.no)
  198. # [12:46] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachy@213.166.174.2) (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com)
  199. # [12:48] * Joins: smaug____ (~chatzilla@cs164155.pp.htv.fi)
  200. # [12:49] * Quits: hasather (~hasather@80.91.33.141) (Remote host closed the connection)
  201. # [12:50] * Joins: cfq_ (~cfq@static.85-10-200-244.clients.your-server.de)
  202. # [12:50] * Joins: hasather (~hasather@80.91.33.141)
  203. # [12:50] * Quits: cfq (~cfq@static.85-10-200-244.clients.your-server.de) (Read error: Operation timed out)
  204. # [12:50] * Quits: jahman (~woops@129.175.204.73) (Read error: Operation timed out)
  205. # [12:50] * Joins: jahman (~woops@129.175.204.73)
  206. # [12:55] * Quits: bholley (~bholley@24-134-57-28-dynip.superkabel.de) (Quit: bholley)
  207. # [12:55] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachy@213.166.174.2)
  208. # [12:58] * annevk_ is now known as annevk
  209. # [12:59] * Quits: WebJonas (~Jonas@166.201.202.84.customer.cdi.no) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
  210. # [13:01] * Joins: karlcow (~karl@nerval.la-grange.net)
  211. # [13:01] <jgraham> zcorpan: Pushed the directory listing fixes
  212. # [13:02] <zcorpan> jgraham: thanks
  213. # [13:04] * Joins: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@b255h046.ugent.be)
  214. # [13:10] <annevk> Ms2ger: seems zcorpan already reviewed
  215. # [13:10] <Ms2ger> Yeah
  216. # [13:11] <Ms2ger> annevk, so I made the characterSet test a case-insensitive match for now, if you don't object
  217. # [13:11] <annevk> ew
  218. # [13:11] <annevk> I won't object, but ew
  219. # [13:11] * Joins: WebJonas (~Jonas@166.201.202.84.customer.cdi.no)
  220. # [13:12] <annevk> Ms2ger: IE10 does lowercase
  221. # [13:12] <Ms2ger> Yeah, agreed with ew
  222. # [13:12] <Ms2ger> I'll check if we have a test for characterSet itself already
  223. # [13:18] <cwilso> Hsivonen well, some of us definitely do. :)
  224. # [13:18] * Quits: hasather (~hasather@80.91.33.141) (Remote host closed the connection)
  225. # [13:18] * Joins: hasather (~hasather@80.91.33.141)
  226. # [13:23] <MikeSmith> cwilso: I guess you know MIDI-peripheral vendors seem to care about Web MIDI too
  227. # [13:24] * Joins: idbentley (~idbentley@204.91.28.98)
  228. # [13:24] <cwilso> Yeah. Now I just need to get some other browsers interested.
  229. # [13:24] <MikeSmith> yeah
  230. # [13:25] <cwilso> And yeah - I'm meeting with some of the this week (I'm in Tokyo)
  231. # [13:25] <Ms2ger> cwilso, seems like patches to Gecko might get accepted ;)
  232. # [13:25] <MikeSmith> cwilso: ahah
  233. # [13:26] <cwilso> Ms2ger: dunno. Really need some more review of the spec.
  234. # [13:26] <Ms2ger> zcorpan, reviewing your PRs hardly seems like payback :)
  235. # [13:26] <zcorpan> worth a shot
  236. # [13:26] <Ms2ger> Also, those are all complex ones, no? :)
  237. # [13:27] <Ms2ger> "move Opera's media tests" - aaah
  238. # [13:27] <Ms2ger> "Add media resource selection tests" - aaah
  239. # [13:28] <Ms2ger> "Add tests for structured clone for workers" - hrm, maybe
  240. # [13:28] * Quits: hasather (~hasather@80.91.33.141) (Remote host closed the connection)
  241. # [13:29] * Joins: hasather (~hasather@80.91.33.141)
  242. # [13:29] <MikeSmith> cwilso: if you're free for lunch some time this week, please ping me. I'll probably be nearby the Mori-tower area tomorrow around lunchtime. I meet up with Dominic Cooney for lunch now and then, and sometimes Eiji Kitamura and others there
  243. # [13:31] <Ms2ger> jgraham, uh, looks like you're getting a few error emails from critic :)
  244. # [13:31] <cwilso> MikeSmith: sounds good. Might be able to do tomorrow, or Wednesday.
  245. # [13:32] <MikeSmith> cwilso: OK. I'll try to ping you around 11am or so tomorrow
  246. # [13:34] * Ms2ger poofs
  247. # [13:34] * Quits: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@b255h046.ugent.be) (Quit: bbl)
  248. # [13:37] <smaug____> cwilso: I'd be interested to see midi in gecko, but need to figure out first whether it is possible to get reasonable low latency midi+audio handling
  249. # [13:38] <smaug____> midi api should be exposed in workers as the audio api
  250. # [13:38] * DaveMethvin is now known as DaveMethvin|away
  251. # [13:38] * smaug____ has tried to find some midi experts in Finland to comment the spec
  252. # [13:39] <cwilso> Smaug: of course. Audio latency can be around 3ms; MIDI should be around that, but I haven't tested yet.
  253. # [13:39] <cwilso> And yeah, we've discussed availability in workers, but we should solve that together with audio in workers.
  254. # [13:40] * Quits: hasather (~hasather@80.91.33.141) (Remote host closed the connection)
  255. # [13:40] <smaug____> cwilso: what kind of latency you get midi-input->synthesizing audio->audio output
  256. # [13:42] * DaveMethvin|away is now known as DaveMethvin
  257. # [13:43] <cwilso> It's audio hardware dependent, of course - but under ten ms, on osx at least.
  258. # [13:43] <cwilso> (Sorry for brevity - on mobile)
  259. # [13:44] <smaug____> ok, under 10 is better than I thought
  260. # [13:45] <smaug____> anything complex in the main thread ofc breaks that
  261. # [13:45] <smaug____> which is why worker support is rather crucial
  262. # [13:46] * Joins: parshap (~parshap@ip68-5-37-109.oc.oc.cox.net)
  263. # [13:53] * Joins: umgrosscol (~umgrossco@grosscol.umdl.umich.edu)
  264. # [13:53] * Joins: foxtrotwhiskey (~foxtrotwh@192-63-2457.unisys.com)
  265. # [13:57] * Joins: zdobersek (~zdobersek@cpe-77.38.31.63.cable.t-1.si)
  266. # [14:01] * Quits: joelcox (~joelcox@unaffiliated/joelcox) (Quit: joelcox)
  267. # [14:03] * Joins: decotii (~decotii@hq.croscon.com)
  268. # [14:06] * jgraham is worried Ms2ger works for the NSA
  269. # [14:08] * Quits: WebJonas (~Jonas@166.201.202.84.customer.cdi.no) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  270. # [14:11] * Joins: newtron (~newtron@199.71.174.203)
  271. # [14:13] * Joins: joelcox (~joelcox@unaffiliated/joelcox)
  272. # [14:14] * Joins: hasather (~hasather@80.91.33.141)
  273. # [14:18] * Joins: Kolombiken (~Adium@94.137.124.2)
  274. # [14:21] * Joins: jreading (Adium@nat/novell/x-mvolsoomqstrydpi)
  275. # [14:21] * Quits: jreading (Adium@nat/novell/x-mvolsoomqstrydpi) (Client Quit)
  276. # [14:21] * Joins: jreading (Adium@nat/novell/x-prjjjyudhkgxdoct)
  277. # [14:21] * Parts: jreading (Adium@nat/novell/x-prjjjyudhkgxdoct)
  278. # [14:23] * Joins: ehsan_ (~ehsan@24-212-206-174.cable.teksavvy.com)
  279. # [14:24] * Quits: rego_ (~rego@231.193.27.77.dynamic.mundo-r.com) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  280. # [14:25] * Joins: TallTed (~Thud@63.119.36.36)
  281. # [14:29] * Joins: lilmonkey` (~colin@pdpc/supporter/professional/riven)
  282. # [14:30] * DaveMethvin is now known as DaveMethvin|away
  283. # [14:30] * Quits: lilmonkey (~colin@pdpc/supporter/professional/riven) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  284. # [14:31] * Joins: plutoniix (~plutoniix@node-19vy.pool-101-109.dynamic.totbb.net)
  285. # [14:33] * DaveMethvin|away is now known as DaveMethvin
  286. # [14:36] * Osmose1000_ is now known as Osmose10009
  287. # [14:36] * Osmose10009 is now known as Osmose1000
  288. # [14:53] * Quits: frustrum (~frustrum@128.54.214.195) (Quit: WeeChat 0.4.2)
  289. # [14:55] * Quits: karlcow (~karl@nerval.la-grange.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  290. # [14:57] * Joins: scor (~scor@drupal.org/user/52142/view)
  291. # [14:58] * Joins: karlcow (~karl@nerval.la-grange.net)
  292. # [15:02] * DaveMethvin is now known as DaveMethvin|away
  293. # [15:02] * DaveMethvin|away is now known as DaveMethvin
  294. # [15:07] * Joins: bholley (~bholley@24-134-57-28-dynip.superkabel.de)
  295. # [15:08] * Joins: marcosc (~marcosc@bl7-246-47.dsl.telepac.pt)
  296. # [15:11] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@90-230-218-37-no135.tbcn.telia.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
  297. # [15:11] * Joins: rubatdub (~khalil@213.188.180.185)
  298. # [15:12] <annevk> I guess I should clone those CORS bugs...
  299. # [15:13] * Quits: Kolombiken (~Adium@94.137.124.2) (Quit: Leaving.)
  300. # [15:16] * Joins: Kolombiken (~Adium@gateway.creuna.se)
  301. # [15:18] <annevk> And done...
  302. # [15:19] * Quits: smaug____ (~chatzilla@cs164155.pp.htv.fi) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  303. # [15:29] * Joins: ebetancourt (~textual@c-66-229-12-65.hsd1.fl.comcast.net)
  304. # [15:29] * Quits: parshap (~parshap@ip68-5-37-109.oc.oc.cox.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  305. # [15:29] * DaveMethvin is now known as DaveMethvin|away
  306. # [15:32] * Joins: xiinotulp (~plutoniix@node-5w1.pool-125-25.dynamic.totbb.net)
  307. # [15:32] * DaveMethvin|away is now known as DaveMethvin
  308. # [15:35] * Quits: plutoniix (~plutoniix@node-19vy.pool-101-109.dynamic.totbb.net) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  309. # [15:35] * xiinotulp is now known as plutoniix
  310. # [15:39] * Quits: umgrosscol (~umgrossco@grosscol.umdl.umich.edu) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  311. # [15:41] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@90-230-218-37-no135.tbcn.telia.com)
  312. # [15:42] * Joins: krawchyk (~krawchyk@65.220.49.251)
  313. # [15:43] * Quits: tomasf (~tomasf@77.72.97.10.c.fiberdirekt.net) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  314. # [15:45] <MikeSmith> I know I'm preaching to the choir here, but how incredibly assheaded is it for a W3C WG to fork a spec from somewhere else and then just ignore legitamate bugs/comments that are raised against the spec, refuse to make any changes to it, and so force the bugs to get cloned
  315. # [15:46] <MikeSmith> nobody is forcing the WebAppSec WG to do this
  316. # [15:46] <annevk> So what I think is going on here is that Brad wants to publish it as a REC
  317. # [15:46] <annevk> Because p-word
  318. # [15:46] <MikeSmith> ah
  319. # [15:46] <annevk> And he's taking every shortcut he can, although I'm in the loop
  320. # [15:46] * DaveMethvin is now known as DaveMethvin|away
  321. # [15:46] <annevk> So I might be wrong
  322. # [15:46] <MikeSmith> christ the levels of absurdity we have reached here
  323. # [15:47] <annevk> I definitely don't hope the plan is for other specifications to reference the CORS REC, that'd be terrible
  324. # [15:47] <jgraham> So this kind of feels like a fundamental tension at the W3C
  325. # [15:47] <annevk> (And doesn't work anyway.)
  326. # [15:47] <jgraham> The W3C's big value proposition is the P— Policy
  327. # [15:48] <MikeSmith> jgraham: yeah
  328. # [15:48] <jgraham> But having to get specs through a process to Rec. means the specs are, generally speaking, wrong
  329. # [15:48] <annevk> I meant to say I'm not in the loop above... All I know about WebAppSec can be observed on the public list.
  330. # [15:49] <jgraham> Because the needs of The Process are very different to the needs of implementors
  331. # [15:49] <MikeSmith> jgraham: the p policy is still important, since despite years of talking about it, we still offer no alternative for that part
  332. # [15:50] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@90-230-218-37-no135.tbcn.telia.com) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
  333. # [15:50] <MikeSmith> jgraham: right again
  334. # [15:50] * Joins: alecf_ (~alecf@50-193-19-178-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net)
  335. # [15:50] <jgraham> This is the fundamental problem that the W3C has to resolve, or someone will come along and eat its lunch
  336. # [15:51] <gsnedders> I see no end of people stopping caring about the W3C brand, though, outside of the browser vendors.
  337. # [15:51] <MikeSmith> but we would maybe have that problem regardless of where we did things, if we have any mechanism for getting actual RF agreements
  338. # [15:51] <jgraham> gsnedders: Try that sentence again with fewer negatives
  339. # [15:52] <MikeSmith> jgraham: I mean maybe we would have such as tension anywhere, if we were to be implementing some way to get RF agreements
  340. # [15:52] <jgraham> MikeSmith: It is very unclear that an organisation set up with the goal of having the lowest-overhead-possible process and a RF policy would look much like the W3C
  341. # [15:52] <jgraham> MikeSmith: You aren't gsnedders, I think :)
  342. # [15:52] <MikeSmith> jgraham: there's only one way to test that
  343. # [15:52] <gsnedders> s/no end of people/nobody/
  344. # [15:53] <jgraham> gsnedders: Or, with fewer negatives, "People outside the browser vendors continue to care about the W3C brand"?
  345. # [15:54] <MikeSmith> annevk: I guess the sad part is that there will be other specs referencing the CORS REC and we won't have any way to stop them
  346. # [15:54] <gsnedders> It's sad there's been no real process towards RF agreements, and as long the W3C WGs have more members, the W3C RF agreements will still be more valuable.
  347. # [15:54] <gsnedders> jgraham: Indeed.
  348. # [15:54] <jgraham> MikeSmith: Yes. If I was the W3C I might be worried that someone was going to test that
  349. # [15:54] <annevk> MikeSmith: we'll wave the 386 flag
  350. # [15:55] <MikeSmith> hehheh
  351. # [15:55] <jgraham> gsnedders: If only the W3C found an easy way to drag its name through the mud. Like getting on board with the DRM people, for example.
  352. # [15:55] <MikeSmith> somebody should make an actual 386 flag
  353. # [15:55] <gsnedders> jgraham: But most W3C members don't care, AFAICT.
  354. # [15:56] <jgraham> gsnedders: Oh, you mean Members
  355. # [15:56] <annevk> What have W3C Members ever done for the web?
  356. # [15:56] <annevk> Most of them, not much, as far as I can tell
  357. # [15:57] <jgraham> Well I find it very hard to understand why most Members even join.
  358. # [15:57] <annevk> They pay the W3C, which puts the money towards getting more W3C Members
  359. # [15:57] <gsnedders> jgraham: I posit the W3C brand still being valuable is because of the Members.
  360. # [15:57] <jgraham> And keeping MikeSmith in trousers
  361. # [15:57] <jgraham> That's very important
  362. # [15:58] <MikeSmith> I think most sane people care about having an environment to work in that isn't causing redunancy and out-of-date information to be published as standards, and referenced by others as standard
  363. # [15:58] <jgraham> gsnedders: Really? Does anyone know or care that Disney and Boeing are part of the W3C?
  364. # [15:58] <annevk> jgraham: hah, agreed
  365. # [15:58] <MikeSmith> people care
  366. # [15:59] <annevk> (with keeping MikeSmith dressed)
  367. # [15:59] <MikeSmith> heh
  368. # [15:59] <MikeSmith> Members are companies comprised of people
  369. # [15:59] <jgraham> People that aren't W3C Team or employees of those companies?
  370. # [15:59] <MikeSmith> people who are generally pretty smart
  371. # [15:59] * Joins: alecf__ (~alecf@216.239.45.130)
  372. # [15:59] <MikeSmith> employees
  373. # [16:00] <MikeSmith> jgraham: ^
  374. # [16:00] * Quits: joelcox (~joelcox@unaffiliated/joelcox) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  375. # [16:00] <jgraham> Right. So, I don't think that is relevant to gsnedders' point
  376. # [16:00] <gsnedders> jgraham: Evangelism
  377. # [16:00] * Quits: alecf_ (~alecf@50-193-19-178-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
  378. # [16:00] <gsnedders> Which is mostly done by W3C Members, no?
  379. # [16:00] <gsnedders> Or rather their employees.
  380. # [16:00] <jgraham> Evangalism of what, to whom?
  381. # [16:01] <gsnedders> If you want to wreck the W3C's standing, convince browser manufacturers to terminate their membership.
  382. # [16:01] <gsnedders> It'd be stupid given the IP rules, but it would make a big statement.
  383. # [16:01] <MikeSmith> I would think anybody in the W3C membership who's objectively looking at what the WebAppSec WG is doing with CORS would have to be kinda wondering WTF?
  384. # [16:01] <MikeSmith> anyway, I should shut up and take a break
  385. # [16:02] <jgraham> gsnedders: To do that you would need somewhere else to go that had a similar RF agreement
  386. # [16:03] <jgraham> Hence my point above that the W3C should be worried that if they don't fix their Process someone will come along with a much lighter-weight process, but the same or similar IPR rules and eat their lunch
  387. # [16:03] <jgraham> It would perhaps have happened with WHATWG if we had had the IPR stuff to get Microsoft on board
  388. # [16:03] * Joins: lmclister (~lmclister@192.150.10.209)
  389. # [16:04] * Joins: joelcox (~joelcox@unaffiliated/joelcox)
  390. # [16:04] <gsnedders> jgraham: The value of the IPR agreements at the W3C comes from the number of Members, though. What does the WHATWG have to offer? It makes it harder for employees of plenty of orgs to join the mailing list if you require everyone on the mailing list to have agreed to IPR agreement.
  391. # [16:05] <jgraham> Does it?
  392. # [16:05] <annevk> W3C does not require that either for its mailing lists.
  393. # [16:05] <jgraham> It only comes from the Members that are actually in the group publishing the spec
  394. # [16:06] <annevk> So I guess I should define document.origin. People have been asking about it for a while now...
  395. # [16:07] <gsnedders> annevk: Which mailing lists? I thought this was the reason why public-html-comments was a separate list?
  396. # [16:07] <annevk> And so document.origin would return the global object's associated document's origin.
  397. # [16:07] <annevk> gsnedders: e.g. I'm on plenty of lists without being a WG Member
  398. # [16:07] <gsnedders> jgraham: Well, the number of patents you get RF licensing of is presumably linked to the number of members.
  399. # [16:07] <gsnedders> annevk: You're employed by a member though, which seems to have an effect.
  400. # [16:08] * Joins: hasather_ (~hasather@guest.schibsted.no)
  401. # [16:08] <annevk> not as far as subscribing rules go...
  402. # [16:08] * Joins: mpt (~mpt@173.227.53.54)
  403. # [16:08] * Quits: mpt (~mpt@173.227.53.54) (Changing host)
  404. # [16:08] * Joins: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt)
  405. # [16:09] * Joins: jernoble|laptop (~jernoble@76.74.153.41)
  406. # [16:10] <gsnedders> So, one can still get patented stuff into a W3C spec by sending feedback on a spec, then suing everyone?
  407. # [16:10] <gsnedders> Then what's the worth of the patent agreement.
  408. # [16:10] <gsnedders> Why not just not "join" any WG, because that means you then need to declare patents?
  409. # [16:11] * Joins: erichynds (~erichynds@64.206.121.41)
  410. # [16:11] * Quits: hasather (~hasather@80.91.33.141) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
  411. # [16:13] * Quits: hasather_ (~hasather@guest.schibsted.no) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
  412. # [16:13] <annevk> gsnedders: dude, given that the W3C blatantly copies WHATWG drafts, there's any number of ways that can happen
  413. # [16:16] <gsnedders> Then what does the W3C actually gain you?
  414. # [16:16] <gsnedders> And can it please stop raining? I know I'm in Glasgow, but...
  415. # [16:17] <jgraham> gsnedders: The W3C gains you that Apple can't sue you. It doesn't prevent Eolas suing you.
  416. # [16:19] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@50-0-164-83.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net)
  417. # [16:20] <jgraham> (other litigators are avaliable)
  418. # [16:22] * Quits: marcosc (~marcosc@bl7-246-47.dsl.telepac.pt) (Remote host closed the connection)
  419. # [16:22] * Joins: rego (~rego@231.193.27.77.dynamic.mundo-r.com)
  420. # [16:22] * Quits: cabanier (~cabanier@c-98-237-137-173.hsd1.wa.comcast.net) (Quit: Leaving.)
  421. # [16:23] * Joins: marcosc (~marcosc@bl7-246-47.dsl.telepac.pt)
  422. # [16:27] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@90-230-218-37-no135.tbcn.telia.com)
  423. # [16:27] * Quits: marcosc (~marcosc@bl7-246-47.dsl.telepac.pt) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
  424. # [16:32] * Quits: nielsle (~nielsle@3239078-cl69.boa.fiberby.dk) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  425. # [16:34] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@90-230-218-37-no135.tbcn.telia.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
  426. # [16:36] * Joins: umgrosscol (~umgrossco@grosscol.umdl.umich.edu)
  427. # [16:37] * Joins: smaug____ (~chatzilla@cs164155.pp.htv.fi)
  428. # [16:38] * Quits: malaclyps (~Danny@gateway/tor-sasl/malaclyps) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  429. # [16:43] * Joins: marcosc (~marcosc@bl7-246-47.dsl.telepac.pt)
  430. # [16:45] * Joins: baku (~baku@corp-nat.p2p.sfo1.mozilla.com)
  431. # [16:46] * Joins: nielsle (~nielsle@3239078-cl69.boa.fiberby.dk)
  432. # [16:47] * Joins: jsbell (jsbell@nat/google/x-mthiuerneeuhgiyb)
  433. # [16:50] * Quits: nielsle (~nielsle@3239078-cl69.boa.fiberby.dk) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
  434. # [16:50] * Joins: shepazu (~shepazu@108-70-132-46.lightspeed.rlghnc.sbcglobal.net)
  435. # [16:51] * Joins: nielsle (~nielsle@3239078-cl69.boa.fiberby.dk)
  436. # [16:58] * Joins: nimbu (~nimbu@sjfw1-a.adobe.com)
  437. # [16:58] * Quits: joelcox (~joelcox@unaffiliated/joelcox) (Quit: joelcox)
  438. # [16:59] * Quits: baku (~baku@corp-nat.p2p.sfo1.mozilla.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
  439. # [17:00] * Joins: cabanier (~cabanier@192.150.22.55)
  440. # [17:00] <Domenic_> annevk: seems like it's time to bust out the streams API counterproposal...
  441. # [17:00] <annevk> Domenic_: referring to Brian's tweet?
  442. # [17:01] * Joins: baku (~baku@corp-nat.p2p.sfo1.mozilla.com)
  443. # [17:01] <Domenic_> annevk: ya and the public-webapps mailing list post
  444. # [17:01] <annevk> Domenic_: would be pretty great if you have the time
  445. # [17:02] <annevk> Domenic_: talked with sicking a bit last Tuesday and basically it seems Firefox OS will go with MozStream (details unclear) if we don't have something soon
  446. # [17:02] <annevk> Domenic_: (which might be fine as long as it remains contained in the Firefox OS walled garden)
  447. # [17:02] <Domenic_> annevk: Yeah well I just finished my major promises refactor so should be able to do it this week/end.
  448. # [17:03] <annevk> Domenic_: also talked with Max Ogden at MozFest and he was mostly like "just give us the features" :-)
  449. # [17:03] <Domenic_> annevk: haha yeah. he will just build a solid abstraction on top of it, as long as it is possible.
  450. # [17:03] <annevk> right
  451. # [17:04] <Domenic_> but it would be good to have something usable by specs, not just people who consume Max's libraries :)
  452. # [17:04] * Joins: sgalineau (~sylvaing@sjfw1.adobe.com)
  453. # [17:05] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@90-230-218-37-no135.tbcn.telia.com)
  454. # [17:05] * Quits: Kolombiken (~Adium@gateway.creuna.se) (Quit: Leaving.)
  455. # [17:07] <annevk> Domenic_: do you want me to email public-webapps about your forthcoming proposal or do it yourself?
  456. # [17:07] <annevk> Domenic_: or maybe wait until Monday
  457. # [17:07] <annevk> ooh wait, Monday it will have expired
  458. # [17:08] <Domenic_> annevk: not sure what would be best. Advertising semi-vaporware seems bad. I could have it done by Sunday-ish. Or I could outline what's wrong with the current proposal pretty quickly? Get Isaac to chip in on that?
  459. # [17:10] <marcosc> Domenic_: yeah, comment on the current one.
  460. # [17:11] <marcosc> We can postpone the current CFC then
  461. # [17:11] <marcosc> We can just mention you have an alternative and need a few more days
  462. # [17:11] <annevk> Domenic_: yeah, a hint of sorts that you're working on something seems helpful though
  463. # [17:11] <marcosc> Having multiple specs published will be confusing
  464. # [17:11] <marcosc> I'm happy to block the other one if need be
  465. # [17:12] <Domenic_> kk awesome thanks guys. will reply tonight.
  466. # [17:13] * Quits: Krinklee (~Krinkle@ec2-50-112-50-28.us-west-2.compute.amazonaws.com) (Changing host)
  467. # [17:13] * Joins: Krinklee (~Krinkle@wikimedia/Krinkle)
  468. # [17:13] * Krinklee is now known as Krinkle_
  469. # [17:13] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@90-230-218-37-no135.tbcn.telia.com) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
  470. # [17:13] * Krinkle_ is now known as Krinkle
  471. # [17:13] * Krinkle is now known as Krinkle_
  472. # [17:13] * Krinkle_ is now known as Krinkle|mobile
  473. # [17:14] * Krinkle|mobile is now known as Krinkle
  474. # [17:15] * Quits: charl_ (~charl@2001:67c:2564:524:92b1:1cff:fe89:ae5) (Quit: leaving)
  475. # [17:18] * Joins: Cromulent (~Cromulent@cpc1-reig5-2-0-cust251.6-3.cable.virginm.net)
  476. # [17:21] * Joins: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@178.205-64-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be)
  477. # [17:21] * Joins: ap (~ap@2620:149:4:304:952c:c2fd:1d00:7fcb)
  478. # [17:21] <Hixie> i love that a bug not having any activity since it was filed is an argument for closing it
  479. # [17:21] * Quits: jernoble|laptop (~jernoble@76.74.153.41) (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
  480. # [17:24] * Quits: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  481. # [17:24] * Joins: mpt (~mpt@173.227.53.54)
  482. # [17:24] * Quits: mpt (~mpt@173.227.53.54) (Changing host)
  483. # [17:24] * Joins: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt)
  484. # [17:27] * Joins: frozenice (~frozenice@unaffiliated/fr0zenice)
  485. # [17:27] <Hixie> cabanier: your most recent e-mail is again lacking in reasons. Any time you write "I think" or "We should" you need to add "because..." or "as shown by..." explaining your reasons, otherwise the feedback just gets dismissed as not having any rationale.
  486. # [17:28] <Ms2ger> That sounds better in the active mood
  487. # [17:28] <Ms2ger> ... otherwise I just dismiss the feedback as ...
  488. # [17:29] <cabanier> Hixie: why am I held to a different standard?
  489. # [17:29] <Hixie> well it's not necessarily me, the same would apply to any other whatwg spec
  490. # [17:29] <Hixie> cabanier: you're not
  491. # [17:29] <Hixie> cabanier: you're just particularly bad at giving rationale
  492. # [17:29] <Hixie> cabanier: yet give a lot of feedback
  493. # [17:30] <cabanier> Hixie: I'm stating how stroking is done. If this was the first email, I'd agree but we've been going back and forth
  494. # [17:31] * Krinkle is now known as Krinkle|detached
  495. # [17:31] <cabanier> Hixie: Isn't the whatwg spec supposed to reflect what browser do?
  496. # [17:31] <cabanier> Hixie: I'm not proposing anything new
  497. # [17:31] <Hixie> your most recent e-mail did not provide ay argument showing that what the spec says differs from what browsers do
  498. # [17:32] <Hixie> as far as i'm aware, i've already fixed the spec to match what browsers do on every test people have shown a difference on
  499. # [17:32] <cabanier> Hixie: OK. I will recheck
  500. # [17:33] <cabanier> Hixie: it would be better if the spec describes what actually happens in case there are weird side effects
  501. # [17:34] <Hixie> that begs the question of in what way it doesn't currently describe what actually happens.
  502. # [17:34] <cabanier> Hixie: I find the current spec very hard to read
  503. # [17:34] <Hixie> (woot, i got to use "begs the question" the way the pedants always want it to be used)
  504. # [17:35] <TabAtkins> I've given up on that, and just resolved to use the older "beggars the question" for the "proper" meaning.
  505. # [17:35] <cabanier> :-)
  506. # [17:35] <Hixie> cabanier: if the problem is just that it's hard to read, that's an entirely different argument than "Isn't the whatwg spec supposed to reflect what browser do?"
  507. # [17:36] <Hixie> cabanier: hence why it's important to describe your actual problems and reasons and arguments and data
  508. # [17:36] <cabanier> ok
  509. # [17:36] <cabanier> Hixie: we did settle on the dashing, correct?
  510. # [17:36] * Quits: Cromulent (~Cromulent@cpc1-reig5-2-0-cust251.6-3.cable.virginm.net) (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/)
  511. # [17:36] <cabanier> Hixie: by breaking dashing out, the current spec will already get more readable
  512. # [17:36] <Hixie> cabanier: if it's hard to read, then the thing to do is to walk through the spec and show, quoting each statement in the spec, where you are finding it hard to read, what terms are confusing, etc.
  513. # [17:37] * Quits: nimbu (~nimbu@sjfw1-a.adobe.com) (Quit: Leaving.)
  514. # [17:37] * Quits: scor (~scor@drupal.org/user/52142/view) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  515. # [17:37] <Hixie> cabanier: the way i did e.g. here: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-whatwg-archive/2013Oct/0345.html
  516. # [17:38] * Joins: parallel21 (~parallel2@150.135.206.91)
  517. # [17:43] <annevk> kinda wish DOM was in WHATWG as well in W3C Bugzilla, would be easier when moving things around
  518. # [17:44] * Joins: Cromulent (~Cromulent@cpc1-reig5-2-0-cust251.6-3.cable.virginm.net)
  519. # [17:44] <Hixie> you could move the product over
  520. # [17:44] <Hixie> since it's a WHATWG spec now anyway
  521. # [17:44] <Hixie> or create a new component and move the bugs over
  522. # [17:46] <annevk> haha http://nodejsreactions.tumblr.com/
  523. # [17:46] <annevk> Hixie: yeah, been thinking about doing just that
  524. # [17:47] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
  525. # [17:48] <annevk> oops
  526. # [17:48] <annevk> forgot to actually serialize the origin
  527. # [17:52] * Quits: stalled (~stalled@unaffiliated/stalled) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
  528. # [17:52] * Joins: nimbu (~nimbu@sjfw1-a.adobe.com)
  529. # [17:57] * Joins: malaclyps (~Danny@gateway/tor-sasl/malaclyps)
  530. # [18:00] <Domenic_> annevk: GitHub issues FTW?
  531. # [18:00] * Joins: Maurice (copyman@5ED57922.cm-7-6b.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
  532. # [18:01] <annevk> Domenic_: I'm still kinda conservative with respect to that...
  533. # [18:01] <annevk> Domenic_: Bugzilla has some nice properties such as mailing list integration and being able to move issues between specifications
  534. # [18:02] <annevk> Domenic_: but maybe at some point I'll start doing that instead
  535. # [18:02] <Domenic_> annevk: I've drunk the coolaid... but yes, I see how those could be useful properties.
  536. # [18:02] <Domenic_> annevk: what do you mean mailing list integration?
  537. # [18:02] * Quits: bholley (~bholley@24-134-57-28-dynip.superkabel.de) (Quit: bholley)
  538. # [18:02] <annevk> I could give it a go maybe for the Notifications API
  539. # [18:02] <Ms2ger> Github issues are pretty terrible
  540. # [18:02] <annevk> Domenic_: just that emails go to the mailing list if someone opens a new issue or one is resolved
  541. # [18:03] <annevk> Ms2ger: not useful
  542. # [18:03] <Ms2ger> Sure, not useful either ;)
  543. # [18:03] <Domenic_> annevk: ah OK. Yeah I guess you could hack it by creating a GitHub user for that mailing list and having him watch the repo, but, meh.
  544. # [18:04] <gsnedders> It's so plainly obviously fucked up when "working to contracted hours" is sufficient to be considered practically a strike.
  545. # [18:04] <Domenic_> annevk: on the other hand most devs are much happier with teh GitHub interface than the mailing list interface.
  546. # [18:04] <gsnedders> (Universiy teaching staff, in the UK)
  547. # [18:04] <annevk> Domenic_: yeah, seems like you might get some kind of involvement that is lacking now
  548. # [18:04] <jgraham> annevk: Ms2ger is right though, they are
  549. # [18:05] <Ms2ger> (For once)
  550. # [18:07] <annevk> jgraham: not useful
  551. # [18:07] * Joins: qsefth (~qsefth@ip-62-143-205-212.unitymediagroup.de)
  552. # [18:07] <Ms2ger> annevk, itym "please elaborate"
  553. # [18:08] <annevk> itym?
  554. # [18:08] <jgraham> annevk: Well it's pretty annoying that the rallying cry is "GitHub all the things" when GitHub isn't obviously a win
  555. # [18:09] <annevk> jgraham: given that everyone and their dog is on GH you really have to say something more coherent than that
  556. # [18:10] <jgraham> Everyone and their dog is on twitter too, but it doesn't make it a good medium for spec development
  557. # [18:10] * Quits: nimbu (~nimbu@sjfw1-a.adobe.com) (Quit: Leaving.)
  558. # [18:10] <jgraham> So you'll need a better argument than "look at all the people"
  559. # [18:10] <jgraham> I don't have a problem with hosting specs on github
  560. # [18:11] * Joins: nimbu (~nimbu@192.150.10.205)
  561. # [18:12] <jgraham> But I think that the issue tracker sucks compared to almost all other issue trackers
  562. # [18:12] <Domenic_> It depends on what features you want
  563. # [18:12] <Domenic_> It definitely has holes
  564. # [18:13] <annevk> Well Domenic_ gave his argument. Developers are familiar with doing development on GH. Specifications are already on GH. We could move a larger part of that development there, to more closely involve everyone following the specification there.
  565. # [18:13] <Domenic_> But those holes don't impact my use cases
  566. # [18:13] <jgraham> And there is a tendecy to ghettoise because you have to actively know about the spec and subscribe to a huge firehose of notifications
  567. # [18:13] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachy@213.166.174.2) (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
  568. # [18:13] <annevk> public-webapps@w3.org is a similar firehose though...
  569. # [18:13] <annevk> And less focused.
  570. # [18:13] <Domenic_> Whereas its ergonomics are *way* better, in terms of ecosystem integration, Markdown support, lightweight tags and milestones, a sane notification interface, ...
  571. # [18:14] <jgraham> I really don't consider the GH notification system to be a "feature"
  572. # [18:14] <Domenic_> It's definitely a value judgement though, whether you prefer the features of other issue trackers over the ones GitHub provides (including the community involvement it brings).
  573. # [18:14] <Domenic_> I really like them. Nice to get them bucketed.
  574. # [18:14] <jgraham> And I don't think that merely being on GitHub brings community involvement
  575. # [18:15] <Domenic_> Obviously not. It just lowers the barrier to both entry and continued participation.
  576. # [18:15] <jgraham> Really?
  577. # [18:15] <umgrosscol> Yeah. You can just git it.
  578. # [18:15] * Quits: alecf__ (~alecf@216.239.45.130) (Quit: alecf__)
  579. # [18:16] <annevk> jgraham: yes, you don't have to create a Bugzilla account
  580. # [18:16] <annevk> jgraham: or subscribe to a mailing list
  581. # [18:16] * Joins: bholley (~bholley@24-134-57-28-dynip.superkabel.de)
  582. # [18:16] <umgrosscol> Single link to the project, and it makes contributing pretty easy.
  583. # [18:16] <jgraham> For example, a lot of the feedback on specs is from a mail to a mailing list that someone who might previously have been unaware of the spec can respond to intelligently based on their knowledge of the web platform
  584. # [18:16] <jgraham> But with github you have to know that the repo exists
  585. # [18:17] <Domenic_> the mailing list <-> spec correspondence is insanely arcane
  586. # [18:17] <TabAtkins> That's my big problem with doing things solely on github, too - the fact that you have to magically know that a given repo exists.
  587. # [18:17] <Domenic_> and the archives are not easy to interface with
  588. # [18:17] <Domenic_> as for the repo's existence, i find organizations can be quite helpful with that. i like browsing through github.com/whatwg and such.
  589. # [18:18] <Domenic_> but I am not sure even where I would browse on the W3C's site to find all the specs under development?
  590. # [18:18] <TabAtkins> The archives aren't *great*, but I've repeatedly stumbled on spec repos only *well after* they've started making progress, when someone mentions the repo on a mailing list.
  591. # [18:18] <Domenic_> last time I did that I found a bunch of XHTML2 stuff.
  592. # [18:18] <jgraham> I don't generally spend my time browsing for repos that might exist
  593. # [18:18] <jgraham> and if I did I wouldn't know where to start on githib. Your personal account?
  594. # [18:18] <jgraham> Some specific organisation for a single project/spec?
  595. # [18:19] <Domenic_> I guess I don't understand why this problem is unique to GitHub vs. to wherever the WHATWG or W3C hosts their specs?
  596. # [18:19] <Domenic_> Mailing list lurkers need to be made aware of a new mailing list/spec URL somehow.
  597. # [18:19] <Domenic_> whether that URL starts with github.com or not doesn't seem to make things more or less easy to find.
  598. # [18:19] <jgraham> The WHATWG only has one mailing list. TC39 has one mailing list. The W3C has a few relevant ones broadly split up by area
  599. # [18:20] <TabAtkins> *Anyone* talking about the spec on a mailing list alerts all the lurkers. Anyone talking about the spec in a github issue alerts no one that isn't already following the spec.
  600. # [18:20] <jgraham> And as I said before it's not the actual hosting that's the problem
  601. # [18:20] <Domenic_> Ah so you appreciate the constant reminders of a spec's existence that come from conflating its issue tracking into the general whatwg mailing list.
  602. # [18:20] <jgraham> For example it would be an improvement if Hixie hosted HTML on GH. But it would be much worse if he moved discussion to there
  603. # [18:21] <TabAtkins> Domenic_: Basically, yeah.
  604. # [18:21] <TabAtkins> What jgraham just said, too.
  605. # [18:21] <TabAtkins> Domenic_: It's just a social issue, unfortunately. If you're not already looped into the right cliques, GH is much harder to follow.
  606. # [18:21] <Hixie> jgraham: there's a github repo that mirrors the svn repo, fwiw
  607. # [18:21] <Hixie> foolip maintains it
  608. # [18:22] <jgraham> Hixie: I know that :)
  609. # [18:22] <Hixie> k
  610. # [18:22] <Domenic_> TabAtkins: and I guess the argument is that getting looped into a single whatwg mailing list is easier than getting looped into the right GH cliques? makes sense i guess.
  611. # [18:22] <Domenic_> If this is a real issue though it's easy to solve, by making a whatwg user that watches all under-development specs.
  612. # [18:22] <TabAtkins> Yeah, one is a single point, easily communicated or stumbled upon. The latter is a mishmash of social circles.
  613. # [18:22] <TabAtkins> Domenic_: Solve it first, then ask to switch. ^_^
  614. # [18:23] <TabAtkins> Don't deprecate the existing solution while the new solution isn't finished yet.
  615. # [18:23] <Domenic_> TabAtkins: seems doable. Just never realizde that people wanted that feature.
  616. # [18:23] * Joins: jernoble|laptop (~jernoble@17.212.155.12)
  617. # [18:24] <Domenic_> Maybe if annevk moves notifications to GH he can set up that watched-by whatwg@whatwg.org association as a good test.
  618. # [18:24] * Joins: weinig (~weinig@17.114.19.247)
  619. # [18:24] <TabAtkins> Does that spam the mailing list with every commit?
  620. # [18:24] <Domenic_> no just issues
  621. # [18:25] * jgraham thinks that will just fragment the discussion
  622. # [18:25] * Quits: jernoble|laptop (~jernoble@17.212.155.12) (Client Quit)
  623. # [18:25] <TabAtkins> New issues, or every comment to an issue?
  624. # [18:25] <Domenic_> both
  625. # [18:25] <TabAtkins> Hm, okay.
  626. # [18:25] <Domenic_> you've used GitHub before right? And gotten emails from it for projects you're watching?
  627. # [18:25] <TabAtkins> Yeah.
  628. # [18:25] <Domenic_> yeah should be just like that.
  629. # [18:26] <umgrosscol> They get nicely sorted by gmail, if you use that.
  630. # [18:26] <TabAtkins> Just making sure it's not leaning too far into the spam territory. Mailing lists, while noisy, at least have humans behind the wheel that prevent accidentally sending 500 unique messages in a few minutes.
  631. # [18:26] <Domenic_> nice feature: if people stay inside their mail clients and reply, the reply gets into the issue tracker just fine, but the conversation can continue by email. I guess this is just a parity-bugzilla feature though tbh.
  632. # [18:26] <jgraham> But you couldn't reply to a mail from GH, address it to whatwg@ and have it show up in GH. So you need to be super-careful about how you reply
  633. # [18:26] <jgraham> Otherwise people will miss stuff
  634. # [18:26] <Domenic_> Right, but I mean, that's the same thing as how bugzilla spams mailing lists.
  635. # [18:27] <Domenic_> jgraham: indeed if you change the "To" header it'll not show up.
  636. # [18:27] <Domenic_> jgraham: seems the same as bugzilla I assume?
  637. # [18:28] <jgraham> Yeah, the bugzilla integration with mailing lists has also not been great :|
  638. # [18:28] * jgraham has always got all commits and issues when he subscribed to a GH repo
  639. # [18:28] * Joins: svl (~me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl)
  640. # [18:28] <jgraham> And all other random things too
  641. # [18:28] <annevk> We could set up whatwg-issues maybe
  642. # [18:29] <annevk> Or whatwg-gh
  643. # [18:29] * Parts: adactio (~adactio@212.42.170.181)
  644. # [18:30] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@50-0-164-83.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net) (Quit: tantek)
  645. # [18:30] <annevk> And we can set up email preferences to be sane
  646. # [18:30] * Joins: WeirdAl (~chatzilla@g2spf.ask.info)
  647. # [18:30] <annevk> MikeSmith: maybe we can get public-whatwg-github@w3.org or some such?
  648. # [18:31] <annevk> Hixie: or would you prefer this to be on whatwg@whatwg.org?
  649. # [18:31] <annevk> TabAtkins: jgraham: Domenic_: ^^
  650. # [18:31] <Hixie> what's the problem we're trying to solve here?
  651. # [18:32] <Domenic_> I believe: Tab likes having one mailing list to subscribe to in order to get ambient notifications about all new and ongoing spec activity.
  652. # [18:32] * jgraham wonders where this setting is to only get issue comments and not other types of notifications
  653. # [18:32] <TabAtkins> More specifically: Moving spec dev to GitHub and using GitHub Issues to track issues has a number of benefits over using mailing lists, but you lose the ambient notification quality of MLs.
  654. # [18:33] <jgraham> As far as I can tell the level of granularity is "single issues" or "everything"
  655. # [18:33] <Hixie> imho we should stick to a minimum number of mechanisms
  656. # [18:33] <jgraham> But I will be very happy if I am wrong
  657. # [18:33] <Hixie> a mailing list, a bug system
  658. # [18:33] <Hixie> we have too many of both already
  659. # [18:33] <TabAtkins> I'm hoping there's a way to get "all issues, no commits".
  660. # [18:34] <annevk> Hixie: make it easier for everyone on GH to give feedback and get involved in spec development
  661. # [18:35] <annevk> Hixie: we use GH issues for javascript.spec.whatwg.org at the moment
  662. # [18:35] <Domenic_> TabAtkins: jgraham: I've never found the ability to get notifications on all commits (unless someone tagged me in them); would actually love to be able to turn that on in some cases.
  663. # [18:35] <Hixie> easier than what? right now contributing to HTML just involves loading the spec, typing in a box, and hitting enter
  664. # [18:35] <Hixie> there's a point below which making it easier to participate starts making it too easy for us to get spammed or receive junk feedback...
  665. # [18:36] <Hixie> (that point might be the form on the w3 TR/ page, i get a ton of nonsense feedback through those forms)
  666. # [18:36] <annevk> Hixie: that's one-off feedback which doesn't really give good ways for follow ups
  667. # [18:36] <Hixie> plenty of people cc themselves on those bugs
  668. # [18:36] <Hixie> or leave their e-mail address
  669. # [18:37] <Hixie> (though in my experience they rarely respond to e-mails when i follow up with them directly)
  670. # [18:37] * Quits: weinig (~weinig@17.114.19.247) (Quit: weinig)
  671. # [18:37] * Joins: krawchyk_ (~krawchyk@65.220.49.251)
  672. # [18:37] <jgraham> Domenic_: Hmm, maybe you are right. It might be that I was thinking of repos that have noisy bots adding comments for each commit
  673. # [18:38] * Joins: darobin_ (~darobin@lns-bzn-61-82-250-78-153.adsl.proxad.net)
  674. # [18:39] <annevk> Lol, some guy on Twitter suggests DRM should be in WHATWG instead. Not very good at reading tea leaves it seems...
  675. # [18:39] <Domenic_> O_____o
  676. # [18:39] <gsnedders> annevk: Hey, it would all be okay if it were!
  677. # [18:39] * Quits: qsefth (~qsefth@ip-62-143-205-212.unitymediagroup.de) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
  678. # [18:40] <gsnedders> The WHATWG design better stuff!
  679. # [18:40] <jgraham> (so it's still all-or-nothing for notifications, which is generally very annoying, but might be OK for this use case)
  680. # [18:40] <Hixie> DRM in the WHATWG would be a very short spec
  681. # [18:40] <TabAtkins> "No"
  682. # [18:41] * Quits: krawchyk (~krawchyk@65.220.49.251) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
  683. # [18:41] * Quits: darobin (~darobin@lns-bzn-27-82-248-47-198.adsl.proxad.net) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
  684. # [18:41] <jgraham> We could give them the spec encrypted, and explain that we don't trust them not to use it in a way that breaks various laws related to reverse engineering, fair use, etc.
  685. # [18:42] <jgraham> *that doesn't break
  686. # [18:42] * jgraham gives up
  687. # [18:43] <annevk> Hixie: So I agree that generally I want fewer ways of doing something. It's just not completely clear to me the current GitHub / Bugzilla / Email setup is the best. Making it GitHub / Email seems like we'd have less in the end and less things to learn.
  688. # [18:43] * Joins: weinig (~weinig@17.202.45.215)
  689. # [18:44] <annevk> Hixie: there's a transition cost of course.
  690. # [18:44] <jgraham> (just because someone will say this: it would also mean that we had a greater dependence on third-party infrastructure)
  691. # [18:46] <Ms2ger> Third party to the W3C? ;)
  692. # [18:46] <Hixie> annevk: github is the one from that pile that i would most quickly dispose of :-)
  693. # [18:47] <Ms2ger> Hixie++
  694. # [18:47] * Quits: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
  695. # [18:47] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@90-230-218-37-no135.tbcn.telia.com)
  696. # [18:48] <Hixie> i know it's all the rage today, but so was code.google.com before that, and sourceforge before that, and most developers don't use any of these
  697. # [18:48] <Hixie> optimising for "developers who use github" is short-sighted imho
  698. # [18:49] <Hixie> not saying there's anything _wrong_ with github
  699. # [18:49] <Hixie> and using it is fine
  700. # [18:49] <Hixie> just, we should be careful not to assume it's The One True Way
  701. # [18:50] <Hixie> mailing lists and bugzilla might not be the current fashion, but they're proven technologies that are highly mature and have been used for literally decades
  702. # [18:50] * Quits: TuRnaD0 (~Thunderbi@x1-6-e0-46-9a-1e-fe-ca.k368.webspeed.dk) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
  703. # [18:50] <Hixie> (ok, 1.something decades in bugzilla's case)
  704. # [18:50] <jgraham> I don't think that code.google.com was ever all the rage :) But I think there is substance to the general point
  705. # [18:50] <Hixie> it was all the rage enough that we hosted a bunch of stuff on it before transitioning to github
  706. # [18:51] <jgraham> That is true
  707. # [18:51] <Domenic_> I don't think anyone's claiming GH is The One True Way. Just that it has advantages worth pursuing.
  708. # [18:51] <Hixie> what are those advantages?
  709. # [18:51] <annevk> And in fact, the current proposal was to have a mailing list backup of everything going on GitHub.
  710. # [18:51] <Ms2ger> "It's github"
  711. # [18:52] <annevk> Hixie: familiar to part of our target audience
  712. # [18:52] <Hixie> lots of things are familiar to part of our target audience
  713. # [18:52] <Hixie> if we're going by that, we should probably move all development to a facebook group
  714. # [18:53] * Quits: lilmonkey` (~colin@pdpc/supporter/professional/riven) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  715. # [18:53] * Joins: lilmonkey (~colin@5469E6D4.cm-12-2d.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
  716. # [18:53] * Quits: lilmonkey (~colin@5469E6D4.cm-12-2d.dynamic.ziggo.nl) (Changing host)
  717. # [18:53] * Joins: lilmonkey (~colin@pdpc/supporter/professional/riven)
  718. # [18:53] * Quits: newtron (~newtron@199.71.174.203) (Remote host closed the connection)
  719. # [18:54] <annevk> I wonder how you end up there
  720. # [18:54] <annevk> I don't know anyone who uses FB for development other than FB engineers
  721. # [18:54] <Ms2ger> More of our target audience are on facebook than on github?
  722. # [18:54] <TabAtkins> Because Hixie likes reductio ad adbsurdum?
  723. # [18:54] <marcosc> It might be best to think about this in terms of the people we want to participate in the spec development process at particular stages. Like Service Workers was a closed group of folks working on stuff first stuff... then opened up a bit to more folks on GH. Eventually, dev of that spec will likely move to a mailing list or continue on GH.
  724. # [18:55] <Ms2ger> marcosc, that's a pretty good point against gh
  725. # [18:55] <marcosc> it might be... that's not the point tho. I'm just saying that it's about finding what is best for people to collaborate on stuff
  726. # [18:56] <annevk> Yes, because us not using GH issues will totally prevent that from happening. Oh wait it didn't Ms2ger...
  727. # [18:56] <Hixie> the way Service Workers has been developed is a case study in how now to do things
  728. # [18:56] <Hixie> how not to do things
  729. # [18:56] <marcosc> now or not?
  730. # [18:56] <Ms2ger> Not
  731. # [18:56] <marcosc> Hixie, why is that?
  732. # [18:56] <annevk> (Not that I think doing development in private is ever a good idea, but it seems unrelated.)
  733. # [18:57] <Hixie> marcosc: because it was designed in a silo without seeking feedback from people who are likely to disagree with the design
  734. # [18:58] <Hixie> marcosc: it's the best way to end up with a tech that doesn't take off
  735. # [18:58] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@90-230-218-37-no135.tbcn.telia.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
  736. # [18:58] <Ms2ger> In any case, it seems that gh issues make it impossible to receive a different amount of email than everything or nothing
  737. # [18:58] <jgraham> Can we pretend that service workers wan't mentioned? I think that's a path we don't want to go down
  738. # [18:58] <TabAtkins> Ms2ger: I don't understand that objection. Mailing lists give you everything.
  739. # [18:59] <Ms2ger> What?
  740. # [18:59] <TabAtkins> Unless you meant "also commit messages" by "everything"?
  741. # [18:59] <Hixie> i really don't understand what we're trying to solve here.
  742. # [18:59] <Ms2ger> I don't want everything
  743. # [18:59] <Ms2ger> I also don't want nothing
  744. # [18:59] * Joins: jwalden (~waldo@nat/mozilla/x-rvqxsqlylzbrdtvy)
  745. # [18:59] <TabAtkins> I don't know what you mean by "everything".
  746. # [18:59] <Ms2ger> All comments ever
  747. # [18:59] <TabAtkins> I want every issue and comment. That's precisely what I get today on mailing lists.
  748. # [18:59] <Ms2ger> I don't!
  749. # [19:00] <Ms2ger> But gh issues supports your preference, not mine
  750. # [19:00] <TabAtkins> Then you're screwed in all cases, I guess?
  751. # [19:00] <jgraham> Hixie: So, in the spirit of trying to argue both sides, I think that the high level goal is to get more people who are web technology users but aren't browser engineers to give feedback on specs
  752. # [19:00] <Ms2ger> Not with bugzilla
  753. # [19:00] <Hixie> jgraham: ok, that seems like a solid goal.
  754. # [19:00] <Hixie> jgraham: we should go to developer conferences and speak to them in person.
  755. # [19:00] <annevk> Hixie: dude we have, they want GitHub
  756. # [19:01] <jgraham> The assertion is that such people are comfortable giving feedback on GH, but not on mailing lists
  757. # [19:01] <Hixie> jgraham: we should go on stackoverflow and comb through questions asked there
  758. # [19:01] <TabAtkins> Ms2ger: I get loads of bugzilla bugs too. When I don't get them, it's because I didn't know they existed in the first place.
  759. # [19:01] <TabAtkins> That is, I didn't get initial mention of the bug either.
  760. # [19:01] <TabAtkins> Which is bad.
  761. # [19:01] <Hixie> jgraham: we should look through quora questions similarly
  762. # [19:01] <jgraham> I don't know if this is actually truw
  763. # [19:01] <jgraham> *true
  764. # [19:01] <Ms2ger> TabAtkins, bugzilla can send you email when a bug is first filed
  765. # [19:02] <TabAtkins> I did not know this.
  766. # [19:02] <jgraham> Hixie: That would give us one type of feedback
  767. # [19:02] <jgraham> It would not give us specific ongoing feedback related to the particular properties of a spec
  768. # [19:02] <jgraham> e.g. about the usability of the API
  769. # [19:03] * Quits: Cromulent (~Cromulent@cpc1-reig5-2-0-cust251.6-3.cable.virginm.net) (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/)
  770. # [19:03] <Ms2ger> Making it easy to send feedback is useful
  771. # [19:03] <Ms2ger> Not drowning browser engineers in email they don't care about is useful too
  772. # [19:03] <Hixie> i'm all for making it easy to send feedback, but i don't want a solution that involves fragmenting that feedback into dozens of places
  773. # [19:04] <Ms2ger> It seems to me that moving to gh issues doesn't necessarily help the former, but likely hurts the latter
  774. # [19:04] <jgraham> So the contention is that there exists a population who would give such feedback if only they were allowed to do so in the form of github issues rather than bugzilla comments or mailing list messages
  775. # [19:04] * Quits: globbot (~logbot@lump.glob.com.au) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
  776. # [19:05] <Ms2ger> How about the bug widgets?
  777. # [19:05] <jgraham> And that the non-trivial size of this population is a direct result of the current popularity og GH
  778. # [19:05] <annevk> I don't think it's that strong. It's just they'd be more likely to give feedback if it could be done in a way they give feedback to other projects.
  779. # [19:05] <Ms2ger> We need a better bug filing widget on DOM
  780. # [19:05] <Hixie> if someone can figure out how to file an issue on github, they're quite capable of using a little text widget like that in the html spec :)
  781. # [19:05] <jgraham> So, by design, if it were replaced next year by GitHip we would have to move there
  782. # [19:06] <Hixie> walk me through what you think it would look like to file feedback on github
  783. # [19:06] <Hixie> for the reviewer and the editor
  784. # [19:06] <jgraham> I guess (and now I am moving on to shakier ground) that the contention is that the little widget is good for initially filing a bug
  785. # [19:06] <jgraham> But is bad for long-term engagement
  786. # [19:07] <Hixie> i agree that it would be nice to get more people to log in and cc themselves once they've filed a bug
  787. # [19:07] <Hixie> (though a surprising number already do)
  788. # [19:07] <jgraham> Because you then have to subscribe to the bug in bugzilla, and most people won't work out how to do that, or won't have an account
  789. # [19:07] <Hixie> most people don't know how to do that on github either, but sure
  790. # [19:07] * Joins: globbot (~logbot@lump.glob.com.au)
  791. # [19:07] * Quits: malaclyps (~Danny@gateway/tor-sasl/malaclyps) (Remote host closed the connection)
  792. # [19:07] <Hixie> walk me through what you think it would look like to file feedback on github, for the reviewer and the editor. i'm nothing if not willing to be convinced. :-)
  793. # [19:08] <Ms2ger> Plausibly more people know how to do it / have an account on github vs the w3c bugzilla
  794. # [19:08] <jgraham> Right, but we are assuming as an axiom that there exists a large population of users who are comfortable with that kind of thing on GH but not bugzilla
  795. # [19:08] <jgraham> I *also* assume that there is a class of bugs that don't work well with the inout widget in the spec
  796. # [19:09] <Ms2ger> A way to subscribe to bugs without having to deal with bugzilla somehow might be interesting
  797. # [19:09] * Quits: bholley (~bholley@24-134-57-28-dynip.superkabel.de) (Quit: bholley)
  798. # [19:09] <jgraham> Things like "this whole design sucks"
  799. # [19:09] <jgraham> Which might need to be longer than one text input
  800. # [19:09] * Joins: malaclyps (~Danny@gateway/tor-sasl/malaclyps)
  801. # [19:09] <jgraham> And that is also a kind of feedback we would like
  802. # [19:09] <Hixie> well for that kind of feedback you really need a mailing list
  803. # [19:09] * Joins: jorgepedret (~jorgepedr@64-46-23-103.dyn.novuscom.net)
  804. # [19:10] * Hixie hasn't been impressed by github for _any_ kind of feedback
  805. # [19:10] <marcosc> I guess fixing Bugzilla so people can log in with Twitter, GH, or even FB might help?
  806. # [19:10] <jgraham> So I think the idea here is that the spec would have a home on gh like github.com/whatwg/brain-transfer
  807. # [19:11] * Quits: roven (~roven@78-20-24-80.access.telenet.be) (Remote host closed the connection)
  808. # [19:11] <jgraham> And the issue tracker would be enabled
  809. # [19:11] * Joins: roven (~roven@78-20-24-80.access.telenet.be)
  810. # [19:11] <jgraham> But all issue notifications would *also* be sent to the mailing list
  811. # [19:12] * Joins: mpt (mpt@conference/canonical-cloud-sprint/x-bkpxnpepycdscktf)
  812. # [19:12] * Quits: mpt (mpt@conference/canonical-cloud-sprint/x-bkpxnpepycdscktf) (Changing host)
  813. # [19:12] * Joins: mpt (mpt@canonical/mpt)
  814. # [19:12] <jgraham> So people could write their long issue on GH and just subscribe to that issue
  815. # [19:12] <jgraham> Or they could subscribe to all notifications just for that spec
  816. # [19:12] <jgraham> Or they could get notifications for all specs
  817. # [19:12] <Hixie> this would be a separate list? like whatwg-commits?
  818. # [19:13] * Joins: dbaron (~dbaron@corp-nat.p2p.sfo1.mozilla.com)
  819. # [19:13] <jgraham> It could be, but I guess then only zcorpan would subscribe and it would be rather pointless
  820. # [19:13] * Quits: roven (~roven@78-20-24-80.access.telenet.be) (Read error: Operation timed out)
  821. # [19:13] <jgraham> IMHO, anything we do is a failure if it doesn't pass the "bz test"
  822. # [19:14] <jgraham> Which is more or less what it sounds like
  823. # [19:14] <Ms2ger> Bugzilla or Boris?
  824. # [19:14] <jgraham> Boris
  825. # [19:14] * Joins: bholley (~bholley@24-134-57-28-dynip.superkabel.de)
  826. # [19:14] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@50-0-164-83.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net)
  827. # [19:14] <jgraham> i.e. given some discussion happening, will someone who engages in the way that bz does see the discussion
  828. # [19:15] <jgraham> And have the chance to comment on it
  829. # [19:15] <marcosc> how does bz engage that is differently from other people?
  830. # [19:15] * DaveMethvin|away is now known as DaveMethvin
  831. # [19:15] <jgraham> I don't know
  832. # [19:15] <jgraham> But he is very good at providing "ambient" feedback
  833. # [19:16] <Hixie> i really don't get why mailing lists are so hard here
  834. # [19:16] <Hixie> but ok
  835. # [19:16] <Ms2ger> People don't like mailing lists much ;)
  836. # [19:16] <marcosc> email sucks
  837. # [19:16] <jgraham> Well I also don't think that mailing lists are hard, obviously
  838. # [19:16] <Ms2ger> It's only better than all the alternatives
  839. # [19:17] <Ms2ger> jgraham, you're pretty literally a rocket scientist, though
  840. # [19:17] <marcosc> some people just seem to have more meaningful interactions on things like GH issues
  841. # [19:17] <Ms2ger> (Except maybe nntp)
  842. # [19:17] <jgraham> Really?
  843. # [19:17] <jgraham> marcosc: ^
  844. # [19:17] <cabanier> Hixie: didn't you have a jsfiddle-like site? Should I use that to post samples?
  845. # [19:17] <Ms2ger> bit.ly/livedom
  846. # [19:18] <jgraham> Some distressingly high fraction of GH issue comments are inane comments
  847. # [19:18] <cabanier> Hixie: codepend and jsfiddle are not permanent
  848. # [19:18] <jgraham> s/comments/graphics/
  849. # [19:18] * Quits: weinig (~weinig@17.202.45.215) (Quit: weinig)
  850. # [19:18] <cabanier> Ms2ger: is that permanent?
  851. # [19:19] <Ms2ger> cabanier, permanent how?
  852. # [19:19] <jgraham> One *big* disadvantage of this kind of proposal is that it will make it much harder to exert the kind of etiquette controls that you can on a mailing list
  853. # [19:19] <cabanier> Ms2ger: If I create it and link to it from a message, will it ever be deleted?
  854. # [19:19] <jgraham> cabanier: It comes with a real long URL
  855. # [19:20] <jgraham> Just use that
  856. # [19:20] <marcosc> jgraham: sure. It's the point I was trying to make earlier. Depending on the group: some people like mailing lists, other people like GH issues, other like other things or a combination.
  857. # [19:21] <marcosc> jgraham: the inane comments just serve as a replacement for IRC
  858. # [19:21] <jgraham> IRC doesn't go to my inbox
  859. # [19:22] <Ms2ger> I can fix that
  860. # [19:22] * Quits: nimbu (~nimbu@192.150.10.205) (Quit: Leaving.)
  861. # [19:23] <marcosc> heh
  862. # [19:23] * Joins: weinig (~weinig@17.114.219.46)
  863. # [19:23] <Ms2ger> One email per line, you say?
  864. # [19:24] <marcosc> Ms2ger: he particularly needs to know when people join and leave the channel
  865. # [19:24] <Ms2ger> Ouch
  866. # [19:24] <Ms2ger> Even *I* wouldn't be that cruel
  867. # [19:27] * Quits: darobin_ (~darobin@lns-bzn-61-82-250-78-153.adsl.proxad.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  868. # [19:29] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachy@cm-84.215.104.248.getinternet.no)
  869. # [19:31] * Quits: malaclyps (~Danny@gateway/tor-sasl/malaclyps) (Remote host closed the connection)
  870. # [19:31] <Hixie> jgraham: well my experience with w3c lists is we _definitely_ don't want bugzilla bugs forwarding to a mailing list with discussion. that's a recipe for driving people away.
  871. # [19:31] <Hixie> jgraham: but anyway
  872. # [19:31] <Hixie> if people want to try using github as a source of issues, i'm all for y'all trying
  873. # [19:32] * Joins: malaclyps (~Danny@gateway/tor-sasl/malaclyps)
  874. # [19:34] <jgraham> FWIW the webapps solution where the new bug notification comes to the list is an OK compromise
  875. # [19:34] <jgraham> But you can't do that with GH (unless you build a custom thing using the API)
  876. # [19:35] * Quits: malaclyps (~Danny@gateway/tor-sasl/malaclyps) (Remote host closed the connection)
  877. # [19:35] <Hixie> i don't read web-apps anymore in part because of that, fwiw
  878. # [19:35] <jgraham> Heh
  879. # [19:35] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachy@cm-84.215.104.248.getinternet.no) (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com)
  880. # [19:35] <jgraham> You probably use the bug tracker as a bug tracker more than most people though
  881. # [19:36] <annevk> Hixie: so you're okay with missing out on what issues are filed and what's decided on in Bugzilla?
  882. # [19:36] * Joins: malaclyps (~Danny@gateway/tor-sasl/malaclyps)
  883. # [19:36] <jgraham> So one compromise solution (which might just combine the worst parts of all worlds)
  884. # [19:36] <jgraham> Is that you build a special thing that uses the GH API
  885. # [19:37] <jgraham> And sends one email per issue to the main list, with a single click link to opt in to getting more mail for that issue
  886. # [19:38] <jgraham> Bonus points if it deletes messages containing graphics with prejudice
  887. # [19:38] <jgraham> s/messages/comments/
  888. # [19:38] <Hixie> annevk: there is zero way i can keep track of everything that's going on on every web spec
  889. # [19:38] * Quits: cheron1 (~cheron@dslb-088-069-011-178.pools.arcor-ip.net) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  890. # [19:38] <Hixie> annevk: i trust the editors to take feedback into account and do the right thing
  891. # [19:39] <Hixie> annevk: and for them to cc me when they think i might have a relevant opinion
  892. # [19:39] <Hixie> (i can barely keep track of the stuff that affects the spec i edit, heh)
  893. # [19:41] <Ms2ger> You can?
  894. # [19:41] * Quits: mpt (mpt@canonical/mpt) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
  895. # [19:42] <annevk> Seems fair. Open bugs are still accessible via the standard... Might be transparent enough although not super useful towards newcomers with knowledge about a particular subject.
  896. # [19:42] <Ms2ger> jgraham, no tests/non-functional dir in wptserve?
  897. # [19:43] <jgraham> Ms2ger: All my tests function!
  898. # [19:43] <jgraham> But in this case the atonym of "functional" would be "unit". And indeed there are no unit tets.
  899. # [19:43] * DaveMethvin is now known as DaveMethvin|away
  900. # [19:43] <Ms2ger> jgraham, I see
  901. # [19:43] <annevk> It happens quite often that people I had not thought of ask about some issue (in a way that suggests they've done a bunch of work) that's been long on file. Always feels like a waste of time for them.
  902. # [19:44] <Hixie> annevk: how do you mean?
  903. # [19:45] <Ms2ger> jgraham, does docs/makefile come from somewhere?
  904. # [19:45] <jgraham> Ms2ger: Sphinx
  905. # [19:45] <annevk> Hixie: e.g. someone will do some research around something incompatible they've found only to realize it's already been done before one I point towards the bug
  906. # [19:45] <jgraham> Ms2ger: I would never write a Makefile :)
  907. # [19:45] * jgraham is not MikeSmith
  908. # [19:45] <Ms2ger> Heh
  909. # [19:45] <annevk> once*
  910. # [19:46] <Ms2ger> They're not too terrible for small things
  911. # [19:47] * Quits: rego (~rego@231.193.27.77.dynamic.mundo-r.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
  912. # [19:47] <Hixie> annevk: ah, yeah. making the bugs more visible in the spec would help with that, but we already don't expose e.g. the mailing list feedbac in that manner.
  913. # [19:47] <Hixie> annevk: (i don't see how github issues would make this any better, though maybe you're not saying it would)
  914. # [19:48] <annevk> I'm not saying GH would make this better. This is separate.
  915. # [19:49] <Ms2ger> jgraham, is the output of the docs somewhere?
  916. # [19:49] <Hixie> annevk: k
  917. # [19:50] <jgraham> Ms2ger: http://wptserve.readthedocs.org/en/latest/
  918. # [19:51] <Ms2ger> Ta
  919. # [19:52] <Ms2ger> jgraham, hrm, is :: at the end of a line some special syntax?
  920. # [19:53] * Quits: dbaron (~dbaron@corp-nat.p2p.sfo1.mozilla.com) (Quit: 8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.)
  921. # [19:53] <jgraham> Ms2ger: Yeah
  922. # [19:54] <jgraham> ReST is kind of horrible
  923. # [19:54] <jgraham> http://docutils.sourceforge.net/docs/ref/rst/restructuredtext.html#literal-blocks
  924. # [19:55] <Ms2ger> FAscinating
  925. # [19:56] * Quits: weinig (~weinig@17.114.219.46) (Quit: weinig)
  926. # [19:57] * Joins: roven (~roven@78-20-24-80.access.telenet.be)
  927. # [19:57] * Joins: dbaron (~dbaron@corp-nat.p2p.sfo1.mozilla.com)
  928. # [19:57] <Ms2ger> jgraham, I'll assume you didn't write make.bat either ;)
  929. # [19:59] * Quits: nielsle (~nielsle@3239078-cl69.boa.fiberby.dk) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
  930. # [20:00] * Joins: nielsle (~nielsle@3239078-cl69.boa.fiberby.dk)
  931. # [20:03] * Quits: lilmonkey (~colin@pdpc/supporter/professional/riven) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
  932. # [20:03] <annevk> zcorpan: https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/319#commits-pushed-fe71648
  933. # [20:04] * Joins: weinig (~weinig@17.202.45.215)
  934. # [20:04] <jgraham> Ms2ger: That would be a good assumption :)
  935. # [20:05] * Quits: nielsle (~nielsle@3239078-cl69.boa.fiberby.dk) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
  936. # [20:05] * Joins: stalled (~stalled@unaffiliated/stalled)
  937. # [20:05] <jgraham> annevk: It's OK zcorpan *reads* his critic email :)
  938. # [20:07] * Joins: qsefth (~qsefth@ip-62-143-205-212.unitymediagroup.de)
  939. # [20:10] * Krinkle|detached is now known as Krinkle
  940. # [20:12] * Quits: barnabywalters (~barnabywa@46-239-239-203.tal.is) (Quit: barnabywalters)
  941. # [20:19] * Joins: lilmonkey (~colin@pdpc/supporter/professional/riven)
  942. # [20:19] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@90-230-218-37-no135.tbcn.telia.com)
  943. # [20:21] * Quits: erichynds (~erichynds@64.206.121.41)
  944. # [20:24] * Quits: roven (~roven@78-20-24-80.access.telenet.be) (Remote host closed the connection)
  945. # [20:24] * Joins: gavin___ (~gavin@76.14.87.162)
  946. # [20:24] * Quits: annevk (~annevk@207.218.72.65) (Remote host closed the connection)
  947. # [20:25] * Joins: roven (~roven@78-20-24-80.access.telenet.be)
  948. # [20:25] * Quits: ImBcmDth (~Jon@oftn/member/ImBcmDth) (Disconnected by services)
  949. # [20:25] * Joins: ImBcmDth (~Jon@oftn/member/ImBcmDth)
  950. # [20:26] * Quits: ebetancourt (~textual@c-66-229-12-65.hsd1.fl.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
  951. # [20:26] * Quits: remysharp (uid4345@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-epqiksquzkorkgjj) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
  952. # [20:26] * Quits: Dashiva (Dashiva@wikia/Dashiva) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
  953. # [20:27] * Joins: Dashiva (Dashiva@wikia/Dashiva)
  954. # [20:27] * Quits: cwilso (uid10206@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-buvgclznlprxlwdw) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
  955. # [20:28] * Quits: jorgepedret (~jorgepedr@64-46-23-103.dyn.novuscom.net) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
  956. # [20:28] * Quits: plutoniix (~plutoniix@node-5w1.pool-125-25.dynamic.totbb.net) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
  957. # [20:28] * Quits: philipj (~philip@83.218.67.122) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
  958. # [20:28] * Quits: gavin_ (~gavin@76.14.87.162) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
  959. # [20:28] * Joins: jorgepedret (~jorgepedr@64-46-23-103.dyn.novuscom.net)
  960. # [20:29] * Quits: roven (~roven@78-20-24-80.access.telenet.be) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
  961. # [20:30] * Quits: sangwhan__ (uid12645@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-qaqkmooqmkgqorlu) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
  962. # [20:30] * Joins: cwilso (uid10206@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-uchjklkzpcnbrxdy)
  963. # [20:31] * Joins: remysharp_ (~uid4345@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-gmzrqunwhwknwcyg)
  964. # [20:31] * Joins: Benvie_ (~bbenvie@corp-nat.p2p.sfo1.mozilla.com)
  965. # [20:31] * Quits: TabAtkins (uid11559@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-bstkumldtvdtsnod) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
  966. # [20:32] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: can i haz a bugzilla component for FXTF Geometry spec plz?
  967. # [20:32] * Joins: sangwhan__ (uid12645@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-uljwvievntjmocxi)
  968. # [20:33] * Joins: TabAtkins (uid11559@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ydvlfdtakpgzfled)
  969. # [20:33] * Quits: globbot (~logbot@lump.glob.com.au) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
  970. # [20:33] * Quits: dbaron (~dbaron@corp-nat.p2p.sfo1.mozilla.com) (Quit: 8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.)
  971. # [20:34] * Quits: kborchers (~kborchers@unaffiliated/kborchers) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
  972. # [20:35] * Joins: dbaron (~dbaron@corp-nat.p2p.sfo1.mozilla.com)
  973. # [20:37] * Joins: newtron (~newtron@199.71.174.203)
  974. # [20:37] * Quits: jwalden (~waldo@nat/mozilla/x-rvqxsqlylzbrdtvy) (Quit: brb)
  975. # [20:38] * Joins: plutoniix (~plutoniix@node-5w1.pool-125-25.dynamic.totbb.net)
  976. # [20:38] * Joins: philipj (~philip@83.218.67.122)
  977. # [20:38] * Joins: globbot (~logbot@lump.glob.com.au)
  978. # [20:39] * Joins: barnabywalters (~barnabywa@89.17.128.127)
  979. # [20:41] * Joins: jwalden (~waldo@nat/mozilla/x-urqxamwwsqfaggjz)
  980. # [20:42] * Joins: kborchers (~kborchers@unaffiliated/kborchers)
  981. # [20:44] <Ms2ger> jgraham, is wptserve py3k-ready?
  982. # [20:45] * Joins: roven (~roven@78-20-24-80.access.telenet.be)
  983. # [20:45] * Quits: barnabywalters (~barnabywa@89.17.128.127) (Quit: Back to real life!)
  984. # [20:53] <Hixie> anyone on non-mac around? i'm looking to see what http://www.hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/html/global-attributes/title/003.html does on non-mac browsers
  985. # [20:53] * Joins: danny__ (~Danny@gateway/tor-sasl/malaclyps)
  986. # [20:53] * Quits: KevinMarks (~KevinMark@c-71-204-145-244.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  987. # [20:54] <TabAtkins> What exactly do you want me to report?
  988. # [20:56] * Quits: malaclyps (~Danny@gateway/tor-sasl/malaclyps) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  989. # [21:00] * Joins: nimbu (~nimbu@sjfw1-a.adobe.com)
  990. # [21:01] <Hixie> reload it, look at the tooltip on the last one. what does it look like? (screenshot might be easiest)
  991. # [21:02] <Hixie> i'm trying to work out how many spaces the browsers are using as the replacement for 'tab'
  992. # [21:07] <TabAtkins> okay, sent
  993. # [21:07] * Quits: stalled (~stalled@unaffiliated/stalled) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
  994. # [21:08] <Hixie> thanks!
  995. # [21:10] * Joins: ebetancourt (~textual@c-66-229-12-65.hsd1.fl.comcast.net)
  996. # [21:11] * DaveMethvin|away is now known as DaveMethvin
  997. # [21:13] <Hixie> TabAtkins: where did you send it?
  998. # [21:13] <TabAtkins> ian@hixie.ch
  999. # [21:13] <Hixie> k
  1000. # [21:13] * Hixie pokes his server
  1001. # [21:14] <jgraham> Ms2ger: No
  1002. # [21:15] * Joins: sicking (~sicking@corp-nat.p2p.sfo1.mozilla.com)
  1003. # [21:18] <Krinkle> MikeSmith: Hi, I noticed you mentioned "ResourceLoader".
  1004. # [21:18] * Quits: krawchyk_ (~krawchyk@65.220.49.251)
  1005. # [21:18] <Krinkle> If you have any questions regarding the meta tag in Wikipedia's MediaWiki software, I can answer any :)
  1006. # [21:19] * Quits: qsefth (~qsefth@ip-62-143-205-212.unitymediagroup.de) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
  1007. # [21:20] * Quits: WesleyMcClane (~quassel@host3-147-dynamic.11-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  1008. # [21:21] * Joins: WesleyMcClane (~quassel@host3-147-dynamic.11-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it)
  1009. # [21:23] * Joins: stalled (~stalled@unaffiliated/stalled)
  1010. # [21:23] <Hixie> TabAtkins: fwiw, still haven't gotten it :-(
  1011. # [21:25] <TabAtkins> It's in my sent mail from 17 minutes ago.
  1012. # [21:25] <Hixie> i have nothing from you since 10:50am
  1013. # [21:26] <Hixie> aah, e-mail.
  1014. # [21:26] <Hixie> i loe you so.
  1015. # [21:26] <Hixie> love, even
  1016. # [21:26] <Hixie> though "loathe" might be closer?
  1017. # [21:26] <Hixie> TabAtkins: well in any case, https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=22973 is the bug for that test, if you have anything to comment on it
  1018. # [21:27] * Quits: nimbu (~nimbu@sjfw1-a.adobe.com) (Quit: Leaving.)
  1019. # [21:27] <Hixie> (mostly pasting that here so i can find it again when i do get your mail)
  1020. # [21:28] * Quits: foxtrotwhiskey (~foxtrotwh@192-63-2457.unisys.com)
  1021. # [21:32] * Joins: WebJonas (~Jonas@166.201.202.84.customer.cdi.no)
  1022. # [21:35] * Quits: danny__ (~Danny@gateway/tor-sasl/malaclyps) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  1023. # [21:37] * Joins: lmcliste_ (~lmclister@192.150.10.209)
  1024. # [21:38] * Quits: lmclister (~lmclister@192.150.10.209) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  1025. # [21:39] <TabAtkins> Hixie: I just attached it to the bug.
  1026. # [21:43] <Hixie> thanks
  1027. # [21:44] * DaveMethvin is now known as DaveMethvin|away
  1028. # [21:45] * Quits: rubatdub (~khalil@213.188.180.185) (Quit: Quitte)
  1029. # [21:46] * Joins: nimbu (~nimbu@192.150.10.205)
  1030. # [21:47] * Quits: baku (~baku@corp-nat.p2p.sfo1.mozilla.com) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
  1031. # [21:47] * Joins: danny__ (~Danny@gateway/tor-sasl/malaclyps)
  1032. # [21:49] * Quits: marcosc (~marcosc@bl7-246-47.dsl.telepac.pt) (Remote host closed the connection)
  1033. # [21:50] * Joins: marcosc (~marcosc@bl7-246-47.dsl.telepac.pt)
  1034. # [21:50] * Quits: ehsan_ (~ehsan@24-212-206-174.cable.teksavvy.com) (Quit: Leaving...)
  1035. # [21:51] * Quits: bholley (~bholley@24-134-57-28-dynip.superkabel.de) (Quit: bholley)
  1036. # [21:52] <Hixie> TabAtkins: wohay, got your e-mail
  1037. # [21:52] <Hixie> TabAtkins: my server must just have been taking the day off
  1038. # [21:53] * Quits: idbentley (~idbentley@204.91.28.98) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
  1039. # [21:53] * Quits: philipj (~philip@83.218.67.122) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
  1040. # [21:53] * Joins: idbentley (~idbentley@204.91.28.98)
  1041. # [21:54] * Joins: philipj (~philip@83.218.67.122)
  1042. # [21:55] * Quits: marcosc (~marcosc@bl7-246-47.dsl.telepac.pt) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
  1043. # [21:56] * Quits: TallTed (~Thud@63.119.36.36)
  1044. # [21:58] * Quits: WebJonas (~Jonas@166.201.202.84.customer.cdi.no) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
  1045. # [21:58] * Joins: gavinc (~gavin@barad-dur.carothers.name)
  1046. # [21:58] * Quits: sicking (~sicking@corp-nat.p2p.sfo1.mozilla.com) (Quit: sicking)
  1047. # [21:59] * Quits: umgrosscol (~umgrossco@grosscol.umdl.umich.edu) (Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de)
  1048. # [22:09] * Joins: josemanuel (~josemanue@37.Red-83-43-4.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net)
  1049. # [22:09] * Quits: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@178.205-64-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be) (Quit: nn)
  1050. # [22:09] * Quits: josemanuel (~josemanue@37.Red-83-43-4.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  1051. # [22:14] * Joins: tobie (~tobielang@col74-1-88-183-112-72.fbx.proxad.net)
  1052. # [22:14] * Joins: mpt (mpt@canonical/mpt)
  1053. # [22:25] * Joins: marcosc (~marcosc@bl7-246-47.dsl.telepac.pt)
  1054. # [22:26] * Joins: nimbu1 (~nimbu@sjfw1-a.adobe.com)
  1055. # [22:26] * Quits: mpt (mpt@canonical/mpt) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
  1056. # [22:27] * Quits: nimbu1 (~nimbu@sjfw1-a.adobe.com) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  1057. # [22:27] * Joins: nimbu1 (~nimbu@sjfw1-a.adobe.com)
  1058. # [22:28] * Quits: nimbu (~nimbu@192.150.10.205) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  1059. # [22:29] * Quits: frozenice (~frozenice@unaffiliated/fr0zenice) (Remote host closed the connection)
  1060. # [22:30] * Joins: mpt (mpt@canonical/mpt)
  1061. # [22:30] * Quits: zdobersek (~zdobersek@cpe-77.38.31.63.cable.t-1.si) (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in)
  1062. # [22:32] * Joins: KevinMarks (~KevinMark@c-71-204-145-244.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  1063. # [22:39] * Joins: WebJonas (~Jonas@166.201.202.84.customer.cdi.no)
  1064. # [22:42] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@50-0-164-83.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net) (Quit: tantek)
  1065. # [22:44] * Joins: sicking (~sicking@corp-nat.p2p.sfo1.mozilla.com)
  1066. # [22:45] * Quits: nimbu1 (~nimbu@sjfw1-a.adobe.com) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
  1067. # [22:47] <Hixie> TabAtkins: what's the story on the 'content' property in CSS applying to elements, do you know?L
  1068. # [22:47] <Hixie> -?
  1069. # [22:47] <Hixie> er, +?, -L.
  1070. # [22:47] <TabAtkins> The spec says to do it, it's just a matter of browsers actually doing so.
  1071. # [22:47] <Hixie> do you know which spec it's in?
  1072. # [22:47] <TabAtkins> Content
  1073. # [22:47] <Hixie> thanks
  1074. # [22:48] <Hixie> hm, is there a more up to date version than http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-content/ ? that says it's dead.
  1075. # [22:48] <matjas> afaik only old Opera (<= 12) implemented that
  1076. # [22:48] <matjas> …unfortunately
  1077. # [22:49] <Hixie> oh wow, parts of that still refer to my old 'move-to' idea
  1078. # [22:49] <TabAtkins> Nah, I haven't taken the time to fix it up yet.
  1079. # [22:49] <Hixie> k
  1080. # [22:50] <Hixie> we're fast coming up on the date i said i'd actually resume work on that spec
  1081. # [22:50] <Hixie> that's scary
  1082. # [22:50] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachy@cm-84.215.104.248.getinternet.no)
  1083. # [22:51] * Joins: barnabywalters (~barnabywa@94-76-254-5.static.as29550.net)
  1084. # [22:51] * Quits: dbaron (~dbaron@corp-nat.p2p.sfo1.mozilla.com) (Read error: Operation timed out)
  1085. # [22:55] * Quits: marcosc (~marcosc@bl7-246-47.dsl.telepac.pt) (Remote host closed the connection)
  1086. # [22:56] * Joins: marcosc (~marcosc@bl7-246-47.dsl.telepac.pt)
  1087. # [22:57] * Joins: Effilry (~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly)
  1088. # [22:57] * Effilry is now known as FireFly
  1089. # [22:58] * Quits: WebJonas (~Jonas@166.201.202.84.customer.cdi.no) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  1090. # [23:00] * Quits: marcosc (~marcosc@bl7-246-47.dsl.telepac.pt) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
  1091. # [23:01] * Joins: alecf_ (~alecf@216.239.45.130)
  1092. # [23:02] * Quits: netoholic (~boyan@77.71.96.54) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  1093. # [23:02] * Joins: netoholic (~boyan@77.71.96.54)
  1094. # [23:03] * Quits: danny__ (~Danny@gateway/tor-sasl/malaclyps) (Quit: Leaving)
  1095. # [23:03] * Quits: Maurice (copyman@5ED57922.cm-7-6b.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
  1096. # [23:03] * Joins: malaclyps (~Danny@gateway/tor-sasl/malaclyps)
  1097. # [23:04] <zcorpan> Hixie: what date?
  1098. # [23:06] * Quits: plutoniix (~plutoniix@node-5w1.pool-125-25.dynamic.totbb.net) (Quit: จรลี จรลา)
  1099. # [23:07] * Joins: WebJonas (~Jonas@166.201.202.84.customer.cdi.no)
  1100. # [23:07] * Quits: svl (~me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl) (Quit: And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.)
  1101. # [23:08] <Domenic_> I still want ::before::before::before and ::after(5) and all that. That was a great spec.
  1102. # [23:11] * Quits: stalled (~stalled@unaffiliated/stalled) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  1103. # [23:11] * Quits: Smylers (~smylers@host86-128-219-55.range86-128.btcentralplus.com) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
  1104. # [23:11] <Hixie> cabanier: i haven't changed the canvas stuff in at least a week...
  1105. # [23:12] <Hixie> zcorpan: 2018, iirc
  1106. # [23:13] <Hixie> Domenic_: that's a great example of what i come up with when i just brute-force my way to a solution and ignore design aesthetics. :-)
  1107. # [23:13] * Quits: ebetancourt (~textual@c-66-229-12-65.hsd1.fl.comcast.net) (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
  1108. # [23:13] * Joins: nimbu (~nimbu@192.150.10.205)
  1109. # [23:13] * Quits: alecf_ (~alecf@216.239.45.130) (Quit: alecf_)
  1110. # [23:14] * Quits: sicking (~sicking@corp-nat.p2p.sfo1.mozilla.com) (Quit: sicking)
  1111. # [23:15] * Quits: sangwhan__ (uid12645@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-uljwvievntjmocxi) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  1112. # [23:16] * Joins: sangwhan__ (uid12645@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-cqlorxklltdxlrhy)
  1113. # [23:16] * Quits: matjas (uid2247@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-fndazlyzwjcfcsie) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  1114. # [23:16] <Domenic_> Hixie: oh man I didn't even notice the editor, awesome :D.
  1115. # [23:16] * Joins: matjas (uid2247@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-wxhopnhubriuqchi)
  1116. # [23:18] * Joins: newtron_ (~newtron@199.71.174.202)
  1117. # [23:19] <Hixie> i wish we'd come up with a good way to wrap siblings in a pesudo-element
  1118. # [23:19] * Quits: nimbu (~nimbu@192.150.10.205) (Quit: Leaving.)
  1119. # [23:21] * Quits: newtron (~newtron@199.71.174.203) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
  1120. # [23:22] * Quits: newtron_ (~newtron@199.71.174.202) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
  1121. # [23:23] * Joins: bholley (~bholley@24-134-57-28-dynip.superkabel.de)
  1122. # [23:24] * Joins: stalled (~stalled@unaffiliated/stalled)
  1123. # [23:24] * Quits: bholley (~bholley@24-134-57-28-dynip.superkabel.de) (Client Quit)
  1124. # [23:29] <cabanier> Hixie: you did it 2 weeks ago. "[giow] (3) Change how tracing a path works so that it's more similar …"
  1125. # [23:29] * Quits: tobie (~tobielang@col74-1-88-183-112-72.fbx.proxad.net) (Quit: tobie)
  1126. # [23:30] <cabanier> Hixie: I didn't realize you changed the spec until I started reading it :-)
  1127. # [23:31] * Joins: sicking (~sicking@corp-nat.p2p.sfo1.mozilla.com)
  1128. # [23:33] * Joins: crocket (~crocket@unaffiliated/crocket)
  1129. # [23:33] <crocket> hi guys
  1130. # [23:33] <crocket> Is HTML5 still a moving target?
  1131. # [23:33] <Hixie> HTML5 is dead
  1132. # [23:33] <Hixie> long live HTML!
  1133. # [23:33] <crocket> Hixie : not funny
  1134. # [23:33] <Hixie> no i mean that seriously
  1135. # [23:33] <Hixie> we dropped the version number
  1136. # [23:34] <Hixie> http://whatwg.org/html
  1137. # [23:34] * Joins: marcosc (~marcosc@bl7-246-47.dsl.telepac.pt)
  1138. # [23:34] <crocket> Hixie : What about WC3?
  1139. # [23:34] <crocket> Did WC3 also drop 5?
  1140. # [23:34] <Hixie> the w3c forked html a while back and have kinda gone into the weeds
  1141. # [23:35] <crocket> Hixie : Does it mean WC3 HTML is incompatible with WHATWG HTML?
  1142. # [23:35] <jgraham> crocket: Browsers are a moving target
  1143. # [23:35] <jgraham> crocket: But by, and large, the things that work today will continue to work tomorrow
  1144. # [23:35] <crocket> jgornick: If HTML moves too, it's hard to get on the train.
  1145. # [23:35] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@corp-nat.p2p.sfo1.mozilla.com)
  1146. # [23:35] <jgraham> and that fact has nothing to do with the status of the spec
  1147. # [23:35] * Quits: lmcliste_ (~lmclister@192.150.10.209)
  1148. # [23:35] <crocket> I want to get on the web bandwagon.
  1149. # [23:36] <crocket> Is it a mistake to read an HTML5 book now?
  1150. # [23:36] <Hixie> crocket: you'd have to ask them (whether there's is compatible with the trunk/whatwg version of html), because last i heard they weren't documenting their differences
  1151. # [23:36] <jgraham> It's entirely a product of the fact that browsers that break sites are unpopular and so don't keep marketshare
  1152. # [23:36] * Quits: idbentley (~idbentley@204.91.28.98) (Read error: Operation timed out)
  1153. # [23:36] <Hixie> crocket: but the whatwg spec intends to remain compatible with browsers, fwiw
  1154. # [23:37] <jgraham> So once a feature is used by enough sites, browsers can't change the way it works, whatever any spec says and however much they might want to
  1155. # [23:37] * Joins: lmclister (~lmclister@192.150.10.209)
  1156. # [23:37] <crocket> Will browser vendors keep up with WHATWG or WC3?
  1157. # [23:37] <Hixie> crocket: whatwg will keep up with browser vendors
  1158. # [23:37] <crocket> the hell?
  1159. # [23:37] <crocket> Hixie : I feel frightened to start learning HTML.
  1160. # [23:37] <jgraham> Developing web technologies isn't a top down process
  1161. # [23:38] <Hixie> crocket: you may be suffering from the impression that standards are developed in isolation and browsers then do what the specs say
  1162. # [23:38] <Hixie> crocket: what actually happens is that the browsers and the specs develop in tandem, and continually converge over time
  1163. # [23:38] <Hixie> (at least, the whatwg specs converge, in theory. dunno about others.)
  1164. # [23:38] <crocket> Hixie : So is it a mistake to learn HTML?
  1165. # [23:38] * Quits: marcosc (~marcosc@bl7-246-47.dsl.telepac.pt) (Remote host closed the connection)
  1166. # [23:38] <Hixie> crocket: nope
  1167. # [23:39] <Hixie> crocket: HTML is a great technology to use if what you want to do is target the Web
  1168. # [23:39] <Hixie> crocket: just like any other platform, it's in active development
  1169. # [23:39] <Hixie> well, any other platform that's not dead
  1170. # [23:39] <crocket> Without explicit version management, it's more confusing.
  1171. # [23:39] <Hixie> why?
  1172. # [23:40] <crocket> Hixie : Without version management, you always have to keep up with the master branch.
  1173. # [23:40] <Hixie> the difference between the web and other platforms is that there's more than one implementation of the web
  1174. # [23:40] <Hixie> crocket: no, because with html if something works, we don't break it
  1175. # [23:40] <crocket> Hixie : Any HTML book you recommend?
  1176. # [23:40] <Hixie> crocket: so web sites written in the 90s and not maintained since still work today, by and large
  1177. # [23:41] <Hixie> (assuming they worked on more than one browser of the time, anyway)
  1178. # [23:41] <Hixie> crocket: i'm not familiar with the books, sorry
  1179. # [23:41] <crocket> Hixie : Did WC3 drop the version number, too?
  1180. # [23:42] * Joins: dbaron (~dbaron@173-228-85-89.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net)
  1181. # [23:42] * Joins: nimbu (~nimbu@sjfw1-a.adobe.com)
  1182. # [23:42] * Quits: nimbu (~nimbu@sjfw1-a.adobe.com) (Client Quit)
  1183. # [23:42] <Hixie> crocket: it's not clear what they're doing. they've got two versions of HTML with different numbers that are different from each other and that are both changing regularly.
  1184. # [23:42] <Hixie> crocket: i would encourage you to ignore them :-)
  1185. # [23:42] <cabanier> :-)
  1186. # [23:42] * Quits: WebJonas (~Jonas@166.201.202.84.customer.cdi.no) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  1187. # [23:42] <crocket> what the hell
  1188. # [23:44] <Hixie> like i said, i'd encourage ignoring them
  1189. # [23:44] <Hixie> they mostly just copy what we do anyway
  1190. # [23:45] * Quits: barnabywalters (~barnabywa@94-76-254-5.static.as29550.net) (Quit: Back to real life!)
  1191. # [23:46] <jsbell> The phrase "reality-based spec writing" just got stuck in my head.
  1192. # [23:47] * Joins: nimbu (~nimbu@sjfw1-a.adobe.com)
  1193. # [23:47] <TabAtkins> Ugh, github's insistence on serving everything as text/plain is frustrating as hell, as it means I can't link to an SVG file that's just in the repo alongside everything else.
  1194. # [23:47] <Hixie> crocket: you may find http://whatwg.org/faq interesting
  1195. # [23:48] <Hixie> TabAtkins: it'd be a security wackamole for them to do anything else
  1196. # [23:48] <Hixie> but yeah
  1197. # [23:49] <TabAtkins> They serve things just fine if you put it on your gh-pages branch and link to it from [repo].github.io, though.
  1198. # [23:49] * Quits: nimbu (~nimbu@sjfw1-a.adobe.com) (Client Quit)
  1199. # [23:49] <Hixie> ah, interesting
  1200. # [23:50] <Hixie> well, that's cross-origin
  1201. # [23:50] <Hixie> so that'd be ok
  1202. # [23:50] <Hixie> i'm rapidly running out of words in the english vocabulary
  1203. # [23:50] <Hixie> object. collection. bag. list.
  1204. # [23:51] <Hixie> pile of things
  1205. # [23:51] <Hixie> stack of widgets
  1206. # [23:51] <Hixie> heap of thingymajimmies
  1207. # [23:51] <Hixie> assemblage, haven't used that yet.
  1208. # [23:51] <jsbell> TabAtkins: For non-production use, there's http://rawgithub.com/
  1209. # [23:51] <Hixie> (it's amusing how many words in the thesaurus under "collection" are terms of art by now)
  1210. # [23:52] <TabAtkins> jsbell: Yeah, but I don't like using that in my project docs.
  1211. # [23:52] <TabAtkins> But I guess whatever
  1212. # [23:52] * Quits: waywk (~waywk4@mail.wlion.com) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  1213. # [23:52] <crocket> yo
  1214. # [23:55] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@90-230-218-37-no135.tbcn.telia.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
  1215. # [23:55] * Quits: weinig (~weinig@17.202.45.215) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  1216. # [23:56] <Domenic_> TabAtkins: you can just remove the dot from raw.github.com and it works. rawgithub.com is a proxy service that sets the right content type
  1217. # [23:56] <TabAtkins> Domenic_: Yeah, I know, I've used it before.
  1218. # [23:57] <Domenic_> oh whoops i was 5 minutes too late, that's what i get for not scrolling
  1219. # [23:57] * Quits: ap (~ap@2620:149:4:304:952c:c2fd:1d00:7fcb) (Quit: ap)
  1220. # [23:57] * Joins: nimbu (~nimbu@sjfw1-a.adobe.com)
  1221. # [23:57] * Quits: nimbu (~nimbu@sjfw1-a.adobe.com) (Client Quit)
  1222. # [23:58] * Joins: ap (~ap@2620:149:4:304:952c:c2fd:1d00:7fcb)
  1223. # [23:59] * Quits: decotii (~decotii@hq.croscon.com) (Quit: Leaving)
  1224. # Session Close: Tue Oct 29 00:00:00 2013

The end :)