/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2013-11-01 / end

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  40. # [00:52] <MikeSmith> Hixie: here now
  41. # [00:52] <MikeSmith> krit: pong
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  60. # [01:53] <Hixie> MikeSmith: know anything about problems with bugzilla?
  61. # [01:53] <MikeSmith> no, nothing new
  62. # [01:53] <MikeSmith> you've noticed done problems?
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  64. # [01:56] <Hixie> yeah for some reason my script is getting a crsf token error
  65. # [01:56] <Hixie> and i can't work out why
  66. # [01:57] <Hixie> it looks like i'm doing it right
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  68. # [02:01] <MikeSmith> Hixie: ok,maybe something changed in the config after the upgrade a few weeks back
  69. # [02:01] <Hixie> i dunno, it works when doing it by hand
  70. # [02:01] <Hixie> i'll have to look more tomorrow
  71. # [02:01] <MikeSmith> can check on it later today
  72. # [02:01] * Krinkle is now known as Krinkle|detached
  73. # [02:02] <Hixie> well, let me know if you hear anything, anyway
  74. # [02:02] <Hixie> no need to really look into it much
  75. # [02:02] <MikeSmith> ok. I'm away from my PC for a few hours yet anyway
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  77. # [02:04] <MikeSmith> (ssh'ing to irssi from my mobile)
  78. # [02:11] <MikeSmith> haha https://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=152430#c82
  79. # [02:11] <MikeSmith> " The question that has been obliquely raised but never answered by the Chrome team is: why don't you hire someone to work on MathML so that someone does own the code and can fix problems when they come up?"
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  81. # [02:15] <MikeSmith> this bug is almost as fun as the mozilla WebP bug
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  83. # [02:16] <MikeSmith> bugzilla needs done way to rate bugs based on their entertainment value
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  86. # [02:16] <MikeSmith> *some way
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  90. # [02:23] <SimonSapin> I thought that was what popcorn.js was about
  91. # [02:24] <MikeSmith> eh?
  92. # [02:24] <SimonSapin> (joking)
  93. # [02:25] <MikeSmith> ah
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  95. # [02:30] <zewt> MikeSmith: ssh is the worst way to phone irc, heh
  96. # [02:31] <zewt> i have irssi-proxy running on a server, so i can connect to it with a native client on my phone, and it connects to my existing session
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  98. # [02:33] <Hixie> irc on a phone is such a bad experience
  99. # [02:33] <Hixie> same as sms or IM
  100. # [02:33] * Hixie shudders
  101. # [02:34] <zewt> it works well for me, but i've jumped a lot of hoops to make it that way
  102. # [02:34] <Hixie> how do you get around the lack of a full-size keyboard?
  103. # [02:35] <Hixie> a full-size tactile keyboard
  104. # [02:35] <zewt> eg. i can load the client on my phone, it'll connect to my irc proxy, and the proxy sends the last ~20 lines of each channel to the client, so I can see current context even though I wasn't connected
  105. # [02:35] <zewt> by using the onscreen keyboard like any other mobile app
  106. # [02:35] <zewt> it sucks with ssh (which isn't designed for it), but it's no worse than any other app with a native client
  107. # [02:36] <Hixie> right, the native apps are horrific too :-)
  108. # [02:36] <zewt> that has nothing to do with irc :P
  109. # [02:37] <Hixie> you said it "works well"
  110. # [02:37] <Hixie> i wouldn't describe the SMS or IM experience on phones as "works well"
  111. # [02:37] <Hixie> let alone the IRC experience
  112. # [02:37] <zewt> works as well as anything, and it's pretty well once you're over the "i can't type on this fucking thing" hump
  113. # [02:37] <Hixie> that's the only hump i've had trouble with
  114. # [02:37] <zewt> but it's nothing particular to irc
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  116. # [02:38] <MikeSmith> about keyboard, Swype on Android makes typing less painful
  117. # [02:38] <zewt> it took me a while to be able to use a vk without backspacing constantly
  118. # [02:38] <Hixie> it's worse on IRC than on the others because there's usually more volume so the typing is even more of an issue
  119. # [02:38] <Hixie> MikeSmith: android has had that built-in for a while
  120. # [02:38] <zewt> and unfortunately, if you want a keyboard that isn't painful to use, ios is really the only option (android's phone is much, much worse)
  121. # [02:38] <Hixie> oh good lord no
  122. # [02:39] <zewt> tis the facts
  123. # [02:39] <Hixie> the iOS keyboard is way worse than the current Android keyboard
  124. # [02:39] <zewt> n
  125. # [02:39] <MikeSmith> zewt: I'm pretty happy with irssi connectbot
  126. # [02:39] <zewt> unless it's changed completely in 4.3 or so
  127. # [02:39] <Hixie> it changed completely in 4.3 or so
  128. # [02:39] <Hixie> in fact, in 4.3.
  129. # [02:39] <zewt> android's keyboard is designed around "let people make lots of typos, then try to correct it after"
  130. # [02:39] <zewt> which is horrifyingly stupid
  131. # [02:39] <Hixie> 4.3 is when it got the swiping action
  132. # [02:39] <zewt> ios is "make the character input smarter, so you don't make the typos in the first place"
  133. # [02:40] <zewt> i'm talking about keyboards, not swype
  134. # [02:40] <Hixie> i'm talking about the android native keyboard
  135. # [02:40] <zewt> you just said "swiping action" :)
  136. # [02:40] <Hixie> yes
  137. # [02:40] <zewt> that's an input method, it's not a keyboard
  138. # [02:41] <Hixie> the native android keyboard has built-in swiping
  139. # [02:41] <Hixie> you just drag around the keyboard instead of tapping each key
  140. # [02:41] <Hixie> it works so much better than typing on iOS
  141. # [02:41] <Hixie> imho
  142. # [02:41] <zewt> i've used that, don't care for it, but it's a different thing than a keyboard
  143. # [02:41] <zewt> haven't tried all that hard (planning on moving from android to ios for my next phone, so shrug)
  144. # [02:43] <zewt> but comparing keyboards to keyboards (not to other styles of input), my experience is that android is way behind
  145. # [02:43] <zewt> (my suspicion is it's patent crap, but as a user that doesn't help me much)
  146. # [02:44] <Hixie> just so we're clear, you mean that android < 4.3 is way behind?
  147. # [02:44] <Hixie> cos, yeah... it's way behind even android. :-)
  148. # [02:44] <zewt> that's what my main experience is with, yes, but it sounds like your 4.3 thing is about non-keyboard inputs like swype
  149. # [02:44] <zewt> does 4.3 have dynamic hit boxes for keys like ios?
  150. # [02:45] <zewt> i think that's the biggest thing
  151. # [02:46] <Hixie> 4.3 and 4.4 have both majorly upgraded the keyboard, even ignoring swiping on the keyboard (i don't know why you think that's a different input mode though)
  152. # [02:46] <Hixie> (is dragging from shift to a letter also a non-keyboard input?)
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  156. # [02:47] <zewt> i don't know why you'd want to do that, heh
  157. # [02:47] <zewt> i just hold shift and hit a letter (the wonders of multitouch)
  158. # [02:47] <Hixie> by "dynamic hit boxes" do you mean "doesn't bring up the letter you tapped"?
  159. # [02:47] <zewt> no
  160. # [02:47] <Hixie> what do you mean by it then?
  161. # [02:47] <zewt> the size of the box corresponding to each letter changes in size, depending on previous inputs
  162. # [02:47] <Hixie> the on-screen size?
  163. # [02:47] <zewt> no, it's invisible
  164. # [02:48] <Hixie> is there a gap between the letters or something?
  165. # [02:48] <zewt> if you type "hell", it knows the next letter is much more likely to be "o" than "p", so the hit box for "o" is enlarged slightly
  166. # [02:48] <Hixie> (on iOS, it's actually "doesn't bring up the letter you tapped", in my experience)
  167. # [02:48] <zewt> at the expense of "p"
  168. # [02:48] <Hixie> so, yes, it's "doesn't bring up the letter you tapped".
  169. # [02:48] <zewt> nothing to do with the visual feedback
  170. # [02:49] <Hixie> ?
  171. # [02:49] <Hixie> if i put my finger on "h" then "e" then "l" then "l" then push on "p" and hold it, what letter does it show me pushing?
  172. # [02:49] <zewt> can you enhance the question
  173. # [02:49] <Hixie> o or p?
  174. # [02:49] <zewt> i'm not talking about anything to do with the visual feedback
  175. # [02:50] <Hixie> on android, it shows the "p", enters the "p", and then if you hit space, it accepts the current autocomplete which is "hello".
  176. # [02:50] <Hixie> i don't understand what you're talking about then
  177. # [02:50] <zewt> on ios, the visual boxes for each letter, and the rectangles that actually register a letter, aren't always the same
  178. # [02:51] <Hixie> yeah. that's what i said. it doesn't give you the letter you pressed.
  179. # [02:51] <zewt> keys that are more likely to be what you want have larger hit boxes (even though you can't see it--it doesn't actually change the key sizes ons creen)
  180. # [02:51] <Hixie> but it changes the popup key that tells you what you pressed
  181. # [02:51] <Hixie> so you press P, and it brings up a big "O" label
  182. # [02:51] <zewt> ... that's a distant side-effect and not what I'm talking about, but okay
  183. # [02:52] <Hixie> the effect is the same as on android, but if you wanted to hit "p", it's harder. sure, it's better. :-)
  184. # [02:52] <zewt> basically, ios tries to prevent typos before they happen, and android lets you make a typo then tries to correct it when you hit space later
  185. # [02:53] <zewt> i find android's method much worse, since it means I have to make a typo, keep typing, and hope it corrects it the way I want; if ios gets it wrong, I see it immediately
  186. # [02:53] <Hixie> you don't have to hope, it's right there on the screen...
  187. # [02:54] <Hixie> just like on ios...
  188. # [02:54] <JakeA> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/streams-api/raw-file/tip/Overview.htm vs https://github.com/whatwg/streams - what's going on there?
  189. # [02:54] <JakeA> Are these competing standards?
  190. # [02:54] <Hixie> zewt: anyway, this is all completely academic since swiping is the only way to type on a phone.
  191. # [02:54] <Hixie> JakeA: what are they?
  192. # [02:54] <zewt> not until I type more; if I type "hwllo", it's not necessarily going to figure out "hello" as soon as I've typed "hw" (not enough info)
  193. # [02:55] <JakeA> Streams APIs. Trying to work out why there's two
  194. # [02:55] <Hixie> zewt: if i type "hw" it immediately says "He"
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  196. # [02:55] <zewt> ios knows that h+vowel is more likely than "hw" or "hr" or "hd", without really caring what the whole word is, so you don't get the typo in the first place
  197. # [02:56] <zewt> anyway, use what works for you :P
  198. # [02:56] <Hixie> zewt: with swiping, it's entirely academic. you draw a line vaguely near the letters, in a tenth of the time it takes to type them, and you get "Hello".
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  210. # [03:29] <zewt> new URL("foo") apparently returns a URL object in Chrome, with no properties. :|
  211. # [03:30] <zewt> re: if you're not going to implement it, leave it throwing until you do
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  220. # [03:47] <MikeSmith> JakeA: about Streams, I'd suggest talking with Domenic or annevk when they're on
  221. # [03:49] <MikeSmith> basically, I think Domenic wants to get discussion going about his alternative proposal
  222. # [03:50] <MikeSmith> which so far I don't think most people are aware of yet and haven't read
  223. # [03:56] <JakeA> Gotcha, cheers
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  225. # [04:02] <JakeA> If I wasn't so hungover I'd have made a great "Don't cross the streams" joke right about now
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  228. # [04:15] <MikeSmith> heh
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  255. # [06:35] <krit> MikeSmith: did you get my mail?
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  266. # [07:28] <MikeSmith> krit: checking now
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  268. # [07:33] <MikeSmith> krit: I don't have perms to update /TR symlinks
  269. # [07:33] <krit> MikeSmith: ok, but the FXTF repo? :)
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  271. # [07:35] <MikeSmith> krit: lemme make sure I understand. 1) You want http://dev.w3.org/fxtf/masking-1/ to rewrite to https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/FXTF/masking ?
  272. # [07:36] <MikeSmith> and 2) You want http://dev.w3.org/fxtf/masking/ to rewrite to https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/FXTF/masking-2 ?
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  275. # [07:42] <krit> MikeSmith: Ok, what the CSS WG really does:
  276. # [07:43] <krit> MikeSmith: http://dev.w3.org/fxtf/masking-1/ should reference to masking-1/
  277. # [07:43] <MikeSmith> wait
  278. # [07:43] <krit> MikeSmith: and http://dev.w3.org/fxtf/masking/ to masking/
  279. # [07:43] <MikeSmith> I don't know what you mean by "reference"
  280. # [07:43] <krit> MikeSmith: I couldn’t do that, because the links were not set up properly yet, so I created masking-2
  281. # [07:44] <MikeSmith> OK
  282. # [07:44] <MikeSmith> reference = Apache rewrite?
  283. # [07:44] <krit> MikeSmith: point to maybe? forward?
  284. # [07:44] <MikeSmith> ok
  285. # [07:44] <krit> yes, that one :)
  286. # [07:44] <MikeSmith> all right
  287. # [07:44] <MikeSmith> I'll get this set up in a hour or so
  288. # [07:44] <MikeSmith> will you still be around to check it?
  289. # [07:44] <krit> MikeSmith: not urgent, but thanks for taking car of it
  290. # [07:44] <MikeSmith> ok
  291. # [07:45] <krit> MikeSmith: yes
  292. # [07:45] <krit> s/car/care/
  293. # [07:45] * krit doesn’t have a car to offer
  294. # [07:46] <krit> MikeSmith: who should I ask because of TR “Apache rewrite” >
  295. # [07:46] <krit> ?
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  301. # [08:18] <MikeSmith> krit: probably best to ask the team contacts for the CSS WG or SVG WG
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  303. # [08:18] <MikeSmith> Doug or Bert or Chris
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  305. # [08:18] <krit> MikeSmith: I’ll do. thanks.
  306. # [08:18] <MikeSmith> but if you want to try yourself, you can e-mail webreq@w3.org
  307. # [08:19] <krit> k
  308. # [08:21] <MikeSmith> I would do it myself for you if I could but /TR symlinks are one of the few things I don't have perms for
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  310. # [08:22] <MikeSmith> anyway I'll do the dev.w3.org/fxtf stuff now
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  312. # [08:29] <MikeSmith> krit: wait, everything in http://dev.w3.org/fxtf/* is already being rewritten to http://w3c-test.org/FXTF/* per something that Peter Linss asked to have set up
  313. # [08:30] <krit> MikeSmith: ah I see! Didn’t know that it was done this way
  314. # [08:30] <krit> MikeSmith: hm.
  315. # [08:31] <MikeSmith> krit: and everything in http://w3c-test.org/FXTF/* comes from https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/FXTF/
  316. # [08:31] <MikeSmith> when somebody does a push to https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/FXTF/ it automatically goes to http://w3c-test.org/FXTF
  317. # [08:31] <krit> MikeSmith: in this case it is already a bit weird :P So could I ask you to link http://dev.w3.org/fxtf/masking to css-masking-1/ ?I will rename the folder
  318. # [08:32] <MikeSmith> css-masking-1/ where?
  319. # [08:32] <krit> I would do hg rename masking css-masking-1
  320. # [08:33] <MikeSmith> yeah
  321. # [08:33] <krit> MikeSmith: and http://dev.w3.org/fxtf/masking links to this folder
  322. # [08:33] <krit> MikeSmith: would that work?
  323. # [08:34] <MikeSmith> I don't knwo whether it would work because I'm still not clear what you want
  324. # [08:34] <krit> http://dev.w3.org/fxtf/masking -> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/FXTF/css-masking-1
  325. # [08:34] <MikeSmith> and blame the weirdness on Peter Linss because he's the one that asked for this mess to be set up the way it is
  326. # [08:35] <krit> MikeSmith: not blaming anyone, just thought it would be different
  327. # [08:36] <krit> MikeSmith: well, better to not do it on Appache then
  328. # [08:37] <krit> MikeSmith: time will just fix it and I’ll take care of the right folder on future publications :)
  329. # [08:37] <MikeSmith> I can try set up the http://dev.w3.org/fxtf/masking -> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/FXTF/css-masking-1 from an .htaccess file in the dev.w3.org repo right now
  330. # [08:37] <krit> MikeSmith: that would be great!
  331. # [08:38] <krit> MikeSmith: So can I rename the folder right now?
  332. # [08:40] <krit> MikeSmith: have my finger on the “return” key to publish the commit :)
  333. # [08:41] <MikeSmith> please rename it first
  334. # [08:42] <MikeSmith> you can move it back if it doesn't work as expected
  335. # [08:44] <krit> MikeSmith: renamed masking to css-masking-1 see http://dev.w3.org/fxtf/css-masking-1/
  336. # [08:53] * Parts: a-ja (~Instantbi@70.230.155.132)
  337. # [08:58] <MikeSmith> krit: ok, http://dev.w3.org/fxtf/masking/ now goes to http://dev.w3.org/fxtf/css-masking-1/ as a expected I think
  338. # [08:58] <MikeSmith> which actually means it's going to http://w3c-test.org/FXTF/css-masking-1/
  339. # [08:59] <MikeSmith> lemme know if that's not what you meant
  340. # [08:59] <krit> MikeSmith: and now http://dev.w3.org/fxtf/masking/ -> http://w3c-test.org/FXTF/css-masking-1/ :)
  341. # [08:59] <MikeSmith> yeah
  342. # [09:00] <krit> MikeSmith: yes, this is what I was looking for :)
  343. # [09:00] <MikeSmith> cool
  344. # [09:00] <MikeSmith> so you still want the second one set up, or don't need it?
  345. # [09:01] <krit> MikeSmith: http://w3c-test.org/FXTF/masking/ is forwarding, so everything is great now :)
  346. # [09:01] <krit> MikeSmith: thanks!
  347. # [09:01] <MikeSmith> great
  348. # [09:01] <MikeSmith> krit: btw you'll be at TPAC?
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  350. # [09:04] <krit> MikeSmith: yes, I am coming.
  351. # [09:04] <MikeSmith> ah good
  352. # [09:04] <MikeSmith> will see you there
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  354. # [09:05] <MikeSmith> oh yeah you'll be at TestTWF to
  355. # [09:05] <MikeSmith> *too
  356. # [09:05] <krit> MikeSmith: yes! Be there as well :) Will you see you there I hope
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  358. # [09:06] * krit needs to prepare the 2min talk for TestTWF at some point
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  364. # [09:47] <Ms2ger> cabanier, can you please not implement things that aren't in a spec without even mentioning that in the bug?
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  385. # [10:06] <zcorpan> ...i don't know what to reply to https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23468#c1
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  387. # [10:20] <annevk-cloud> Laugh ;)
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  424. # [12:38] <hsivonen> is the serial API supposed to cover USB? I see vendorID and productId there
  425. # [12:38] <hsivonen> note the discrepancy between ID and Id...
  426. # [12:39] <hsivonen> will the same API work for Bluetooth, too?
  427. # [12:42] <smaug____> hmm, where is the latest svg spec
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  440. # [13:10] <zcorpan> https://svgwg.org/svg2-draft/
  441. # [13:11] <annevk> smaug____: oddity, hah
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  443. # [13:13] <smaug____> yeah yeah, can't fix the old APIs
  444. # [13:13] <annevk> it's not an oddity for such an API to not include self
  445. # [13:13] <annevk> point me to one library that does that
  446. # [13:16] <smaug____> it is odd for an API which is searching a node in a tree to exclude one node
  447. # [13:17] <zcorpan> smaug____: do you expect this to return the form? http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/2616
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  449. # [13:19] <smaug____> no
  450. # [13:19] <zcorpan> why not?
  451. # [13:20] <smaug____> .x is a property of form which has name x
  452. # [13:21] <annevk> smaug____: o_O
  453. # [13:21] <smaug____> :)
  454. # [13:22] * zcorpan doesn't follow
  455. # [13:22] <smaug____> I don't see that .x as a tree search operation
  456. # [13:22] <smaug____> if one does, then the .x.x should indeed return form element
  457. # [13:23] <zcorpan> but it basically is a tree search operation: http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/2617
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  459. # [13:24] <smaug____> it is implemented as a search. but .x just points to some object
  460. # [13:26] <zcorpan> getElementById is implemented as a search but just returns some object...?
  461. # [13:26] <annevk> smaug____: to give a more considered reply, it does not just exclude one node, it excludes inclusive ancestors and searches descendants
  462. # [13:26] <annevk> smaug____: and excludes siblings and their respective trees
  463. # [13:27] <smaug____> it excludes the root of the search tree
  464. # [13:27] <smaug____> and just sounds odd to me
  465. # [13:28] <smaug____> feels wrong
  466. # [13:28] <smaug____> but I know, we can't change this stuff
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  492. # [14:31] <annevk> bholley: how about slowly trying to move away from multiple globals that can reach each other going forward?
  493. # [14:32] <annevk> bholley: maybe it's better to discuss in a channel that includes bz
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  497. # [14:45] <annevk> Whoa, CSS has case-insensitive ID matching in quirks mode?
  498. # [14:47] <SimonSapin> annevk: apparently yeah :/
  499. # [14:47] <annevk> Where is that defined?
  500. # [14:47] <SimonSapin> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/selectors.html#case-sensitivity
  501. # [14:47] <SimonSapin> CSS leaves it to the document language to define
  502. # [14:48] <annevk> Selectors is so bah
  503. # [14:59] <zewt_> ... case-insensitive id matching is lame; locale-sensitive case-insensitive matching sounds insane
  504. # [14:59] <zewt_> does it seriously need that, and not just case-folding?
  505. # [14:59] * zewt_ is now known as zewt
  506. # [14:59] <SimonSapin> zewt: this is ASCII only insensitivity
  507. # [14:59] <SimonSapin> in quirks mode
  508. # [15:00] <zewt> well you said that it leaves it to the language to define, which sounded like locale-sensitivity
  509. # [15:00] <annevk> zewt: the language is HTML
  510. # [15:00] <annevk> (although it should really be DOM, but whatever)
  511. # [15:00] <SimonSapin> SVG is another document language
  512. # [15:00] <annevk> SimonSapin: which goes to show that if you mix SVG and HTML, Selectors has the wrong abstraction
  513. # [15:01] <zcorpan> SVG's ids and classes are also case-insensitive in quirks mode
  514. # [15:01] <annevk> but we're getting back to Selectors is so bah territory
  515. # [15:01] <SimonSapin> even SVG has a quirks mode?
  516. # [15:01] <SimonSapin> sad
  517. # [15:01] <zcorpan> SimonSapin: if you put svg in html...
  518. # [15:01] <zcorpan> XML doesn't have quirks
  519. # [15:01] <annevk> SimonSapin: quirks mode is tied to DOM, not some input stream...
  520. # [15:03] <SimonSapin> let’s put it like this: does image/svg+xml have a quirks mode?
  521. # [15:03] <SimonSapin> I suppose http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/selectors.html#case-sensitivity also defines SVG-in-HTML
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  523. # [15:04] <zcorpan> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/2618
  524. # [15:04] <zcorpan> SimonSapin: that's XML, and XML doesn't have quirks mode
  525. # [15:04] <SimonSapin> ok
  526. # [15:05] <zcorpan> but the document above has svg as only element and is in quirks mode...
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  528. # [15:07] <zcorpan> so, selectors shouldn't make it per-language since that doesn't reflect reality. it should just say, classes and ids are case-sensitive except in quirks mode where they're ascii-case-insensitive
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  531. # [15:08] <annevk> Nah, it doesn't need. The mapping from the undefined abstract model to DOM is trivial.
  532. # [15:11] <zcorpan> TabAtkins: how should i mark up http://dev.w3.org/csswg/cssom-view/#concept-geometry-rectangle-origin in bikeshed? i want origin to be like a property of 'rectangle'
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  545. # [15:58] <zcorpan> http://dev.w3.org/fxtf/geometry/#DOMMatrix a bit sad to use an image there
  546. # [15:59] <zcorpan> would be cool with LaTeX to MathML or something in bikeshed
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  553. # [16:35] <hsivonen> annevk: regarding Halloween minutes of the TAG, what's a DRM Task Force supposed to accomplish?
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  556. # [16:36] <hsivonen> I note that TimBL hasn't replied to my recent emails to www-tag.
  557. # [16:38] <annevk> hsivonen: I suspect the idea would be to explore the technical ramifications.
  558. # [16:40] <annevk> hsivonen: Henry suggested he does not have a solid grasp on the subject and therefore "Task Force". I'm not sure what to think about it.
  559. # [16:40] <annevk> I'm generall wary of all Task Forces.
  560. # [16:40] <annevk> generally*
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  562. # [16:42] <hsivonen> annevk: I'm wary, too. Not sure what an exploration would output that would result in a meaningful action by the W3C.
  563. # [16:42] <Hixie> so, y'all realise the w3c is doing this drm thing because that's a way it can get more members and thus more money, right? :-)
  564. # [16:43] <annevk> hsivonen: I suspect there's a high likelyhood of a Task Force happening so they can use it to save face.
  565. # [16:43] <Hixie> i mean you keep discussing it like it's something they could see the merits of, but it's obvious from their discussions that they're just post-hoc rationalising
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  567. # [16:43] <annevk> hsivonen: W3C is not very good at driving things and always tries to outsource hard decisions.
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  569. # [16:43] <hsivonen> annevk: :-(
  570. # [16:44] <hsivonen> Hixie: I think it's for the Membership fee $$$s, yes
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  572. # [16:44] <annevk> W$C
  573. # [16:44] <annevk> Oh W€C
  574. # [16:45] <annevk> Although it's mostly Hollywood dollars here I suppose, not so much euros
  575. # [16:46] <Domenic_> Wondering how to reply to that invite to work on streams in the W3C webapps...
  576. # [16:47] <Domenic_> Maybe "I plan to work on this in the WHATWG, but from what I understand the usual procedure is for the W3C to choose a point in time to fork and freeze the standard, change some example text to use different genders, and then get patent protection applied. I'm totally fine with that and willing to collaborate in whatever the W3C needs to continue that path."
  577. # [16:47] <SimonSapin> Domenic_: https://twitter.com/sgalineau/status/395208203358597120
  578. # [16:48] <Domenic_> SimonSapin: haha yes too true -_-
  579. # [16:48] <annevk> SimonSapin: we like Domenic_, don't scare him :p
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  583. # [16:49] <SimonSapin> annevk: don’t worry, he’s already too far in to run away :)
  584. # [16:51] <Hixie> god, that tweet is so on the money
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  598. # [17:24] <TabAtkins> zcorpan: I can't find an "origin" dfn in the draft, and your hash doesn't link to anything. What type of definition is "rectangle"? Just a plain "<dfn> rectangle</dfn>"?
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  626. # [18:04] <annevk> arv: I actually like URL.prototype.searchList, but I was afraid it might be confusing if it didn't return the same kind of list classList returned
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  631. # [18:12] <annevk> Tentative proposal to rename URL.prototype.query is now searchParams with URLSearchParams as corresponding object. https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23586
  632. # [18:12] <annevk> Speak up now, or forever...
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  636. # [18:15] <Domenic_> annevk: +1
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  640. # [18:18] <Domenic_> Your point about using search in both places was a good one. (Even if nobody calls it "search" in the real world :-S.)
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  644. # [18:22] <annevk> hash rather than fragment is good too
  645. # [18:24] <annevk> I wonder if this is another case of Java did it first or if this was after one too many late nights at Netscape
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  657. # [18:34] <TabAtkins> MikeSmith: I forget what combination of soft/hard redirects we use for CSSWG stuff, but there should be several of them in place now, so FXTF can use the same pattern.
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  661. # [18:39] <TabAtkins> I wonder if MathJax uses DOM measurements to format stuff, or if I can port it to Python and do server-side rendering in Bikeshed...
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  666. # [18:45] <MikeSmith> TabAtkins: for now I think at least I got krit's stuff set up the way he wants. All I did was add anothether Rewrite rule to the .htaccess in dev.w3.org/fxtf.
  667. # [18:45] <SimonSapin> annevk_: does anything implement both ParentNode and URLUtils?
  668. # [18:45] <TabAtkins> MikeSmith: kk
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  671. # [18:46] <annevk> SimonSapin: arv, in his head
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  675. # [18:48] <SimonSapin> searchParams, ew
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  680. # [18:52] <Domenic_> SimonSapin: kind of ew, but then, queryParams sounds great! and consistency sounds good! so now searchParams sounds good suddenly.
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  686. # [18:54] <krit> TabAtkins: Filter Effects uses a MathJax version that is stripped down even more than the minimum version from the web site
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  688. # [18:55] <krit> TabAtkins: I use MathML directly in the spec.
  689. # [18:55] <krit> TabAtkins: That is more accessible.
  690. # [18:55] <TabAtkins> MathML directly in the spec doesn't help users with Chrome, though. :/
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  692. # [18:55] <krit> TabAtkins: unless you use MathJax and kick the asses of Blink people in the meantime ;)
  693. # [18:56] <krit> TabAtkins: that is what I am saying. I stripped the lib down as much as I could
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  695. # [18:56] <TabAtkins> My current line of attack is to try and convince them to just ship MathJax with Chrome, like we're doing with XSLT.
  696. # [18:56] <krit> TabAtkins: I suggested that as well to pdr.
  697. # [18:56] <krit> TabAtkins: looks like people still don’t like it
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  699. # [18:57] <Ms2ger> annevk, ContainedNode? :)
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  701. # [18:57] <annevk> Ms2ger: you've been off the naming committee since a long time now :p
  702. # [18:57] <Ms2ger> annevk, phew :)
  703. # [18:57] <annevk> but yeah
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  707. # [19:00] <SimonSapin> Domenic_: wait, what?
  708. # [19:00] <SimonSapin> how does searchParams start to sound good?
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  710. # [19:01] <Domenic_> SimonSapin: because you have search, which is like a string version of searchParams? i dunno, feels ok to me.
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  714. # [19:04] <annevk> Hardly something to get upset over on a Friday night
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  716. # [19:05] <SimonSapin> ah, yeah, I support search is legacy
  717. # [19:05] <SimonSapin> I suppose*
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  742. # [19:35] <Ms2ger> annevk_, did you see my question about pre-insert, btw?
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  757. # [19:52] <annevk-cloud> Ms2ger, did I not answer?
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  760. # [19:53] <annevk-cloud> Or was it not about "node is inserted"?
  761. # [19:53] <Ms2ger> Did I miss your answer? :)
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  763. # [19:53] <Ms2ger> Ah, no
  764. # [19:53] <annevk-cloud> Pointer?
  765. # [19:53] <Ms2ger> What you thought about making step 6 of pre-insert a switch
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  767. # [19:56] <annevk-cloud> Good idea. Should do that maybe once we add ShadowRoot et al to DOM
  768. # [19:56] <annevk-cloud> File a bug?
  769. # [19:56] <Ms2ger> Will do
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  835. # [22:05] <Ms2ger> zcorpan: turns out that Servo does, indeed, support <mod>
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  838. # [22:19] <Ms2ger> getElementById on ParentNode? Breaks jQuery
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  842. # [22:26] <miketaylr> yeah but nobody uses jquery
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  844. # [22:55] <Domenic_> Ms2ger: really? wow :-S
  845. # [22:55] <Ms2ger> Domenic_, sure seems to break its test suite...
  846. # [22:55] <Ms2ger> Might be a bug in the implementation
  847. # [22:56] <Ms2ger> But bz implemented it, so I wouldn't count too much on that option
  848. # [22:57] <Domenic_> after all that debate... fun times.
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  851. # [23:03] <gsnedders> Ms2ger: Level of surprise: not great.
  852. # [23:04] <Ms2ger> gsnedders, I assume you must have dealt with jquery in QA
  853. # [23:05] <gsnedders> Ms2ger: Once or twice.
  854. # [23:05] <gsnedders> Ms2ger: jQuery is nowhere near as fragile as older versions of Prototype, though
  855. # [23:05] <gsnedders> Or Dojo.
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  857. # [23:07] <Ms2ger> Damning it with faint praise, eh
  858. # [23:08] <gsnedders> YUI is the worst, really
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  868. # [23:29] <annevk-cloud> Wow :/
  869. # [23:29] <annevk-cloud> Need to drink some more now
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  871. # [23:33] <Hixie> hm?
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  879. # [23:37] <Ms2ger> Hixie, web compat
  880. # [23:38] <Hixie> oh, getElementById on ParentNode breaking jQuery,i missed that
  881. # [23:38] <Hixie> wow
  882. # [23:38] <Hixie> what specifically is it that breaks? putting it on Element?
  883. # [23:39] <Ms2ger> I haven't investigated
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  887. # [23:41] <Hixie> well what made you say it broke jquery?
  888. # [23:41] <Ms2ger> We run jquery's unit tests, and those failed
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The end :)