/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2013-11-10 / end

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  84. # [04:24] * jgraham wonders if anyone at TPAC is around
  85. # [04:25] <SimonSapin> jgraham: depends on what you mean by around
  86. # [04:27] <jgraham> Heh
  87. # [04:28] <jgraham> I don't think people in CSS meetings count
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  112. # [05:48] <annevk-cloud> jgraham: I am around in a couple of hours
  113. # [05:49] <annevk-cloud> meeting at one first, not sure how long it'll take
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  116. # [05:54] <MikeSmith> I'm around too
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  154. # [07:32] <MikeSmith> if anybody's around at the Wuzhou, me and Mark Nottingham and maybe some other people are going to meet in the lobby at 3 and taxi over to SEG electronics market
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  156. # [07:33] <MikeSmith> to buy some black market electronics and such
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  158. # [07:33] <MikeSmith> annevk-cloud: ^
  159. # [07:34] <MikeSmith> zcorpan jgraham sangwhan__
  160. # [07:35] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: i'm at the css pre-meeting, but if you're gonna shop for electronics, i'm interested in a mouse since my trackpad is broken
  161. # [07:36] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: you prefer a counterfeit mouse or a legit one?
  162. # [07:37] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: whatever is likely to work on a mac and is relatively cheap
  163. # [07:37] <MikeSmith> hai
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  179. # [08:50] <annevk-cloud> still in meeting
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  182. # [08:56] <jgraham> annevk-cloud: YOu had plans for this evening, right? Otherwise, if your meeting were finished you would be welcome to join David Burns and Simon Stewart and I at 16:30
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  195. # [09:24] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: turns out a force-reboot fixed the trackpad, so i don't need the mouse in case you haven't bought one already
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  203. # [10:19] <SimonSapin> hum. http://w3cmemes.tumblr.com/post/66554037213/today-simon-sapin-learned-a-forbidden-word
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  205. # [10:25] <Ms2ger> Heh
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  228. # [11:22] <stevefaulkner> MikeSmith: ping
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  231. # Session Close: Sun Nov 10 11:47:04 2013
  232. #
  233. # Session Start: Sun Nov 10 11:47:04 2013
  234. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  235. # [11:47] * Disconnected
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  238. # [11:57] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ & http://logbot.glob.com.au/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  239. # [11:57] * Set by smaug____!~chatzilla@GGZYYCCCXVIII.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi on Wed Mar 21 17:14:24
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  251. # [13:01] <Ms2ger> jgraham, the rest of the file and even the rest of that function is inconsistent in style, so how about I fix it all up? :)
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  255. # [13:21] <jgraham> Ms2ger: Sure
  256. # [13:22] <jgraham> The problem is that I want to use K&R style, but at some point it got changed to whatever the other style is called and I didn't want to argue about whitespace, so I just left it
  257. # [13:22] <jgraham> But I never remember to use the "right" style
  258. # [13:24] * Ms2ger looks which one K&R is
  259. # [13:25] <jgraham> It might not be quite K&R
  260. # [13:26] <MikeSmith> ANSI style
  261. # [13:26] <Ms2ger> Yeah, K&R drops braces for single-line blocks
  262. # [13:26] * Ms2ger really doesn't like that :)
  263. # [13:28] <jgraham> Oh, no braces for single line blocks is evil
  264. # [13:28] <jgraham> So, like I said, not quite K&R
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  267. #
  268. # Session Start: Sun Nov 10 13:46:06 2013
  269. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  270. # [13:46] * Now talking in #whatwg
  271. # [13:46] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ & http://logbot.glob.com.au/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
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  274. # [13:57] <Ms2ger> OH: "It's not clear to me why the TPAC 2013 agenda lists the XSL 1.0 requirements but not the XSL-FO 2.0 requirements."
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  350. # [18:15] <TabAtkins> Looks like XSL did some interesting things regarding printing, and we're trying to see what parts of that are interesting and sane to translate into CSS.
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  393. # [20:37] <DaveMethvin> .
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  402. # [20:56] <Ms2ger> Heh: https://twitter.com/Justinian_II/status/399223257259188225/photo/1/large
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  433. # [22:41] <TabAtkins> Ms2ger: Haha, nice.
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  443. # [23:17] <norbert_> hi all
  444. # [23:17] <norbert_> I have a question
  445. # [23:17] <norbert_> In 2011, you discussed "Limiting the amount of downloaded but not watched video" http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/whatwg-whatwg.org/2011-January/thread.html
  446. # [23:18] <norbert_> some suggested an additional "state3" preload state http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/whatwg-whatwg.org/2011-January/029967.html
  447. # [23:18] <norbert_> *someone
  448. # [23:18] <norbert_> and I don't think you've ever come back to discussing that
  449. # [23:19] <norbert_> if I embed a 1Gb movie of 2 hours with the <video> tag
  450. # [23:19] <norbert_> and someone watches only the first 5 minutes, how can I prevent them from downloading 1Gb
  451. # [23:19] <norbert_> I have only limited money and a simple content provider, not my own server
  452. # [23:20] <norbert_> how can I use HTML5 <video> for anything over, say, 10Mb, without running into bandwidth problems?
  453. # [23:20] <norbert_> I don't understand why discussion about that additional "state3" preload state has ended
  454. # [23:20] <norbert_> http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/whatwg-whatwg.org/2011-January/029967.html
  455. # [23:20] <norbert_> January 2011, that's almost 3 years ago
  456. # [23:21] <norbert_> any thoughts on this?
  457. # [23:22] <SimonSapin> norbert_: this is not what you’re asking for, but have you seen this? https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html-media/raw-file/tip/media-source/media-source.html
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  459. # [23:23] <SimonSapin> as far as I understand it allows you to precisely control how stuff gets loaded, but it’s quite involved
  460. # [23:23] <norbert_> yes, I did see that document, but it looked quite complicated
  461. # [23:23] <norbert_> all I did was search for "buffer" in it and read a bit here and there, but then gave up looking at it any further
  462. # [23:24] <norbert_> mostly because as far as I can tell it's some kind of extension which may not be implemented yet in browsers
  463. # [23:24] <norbert_> but I don't know for sure, I'm a noob when it comes to all this
  464. # [23:24] <norbert_> all I'm looking for is a way to embed larger HTML5 videos (.webm) without running into bandwidth problems
  465. # [23:25] <norbert_> and eventually I ran into that suggestion on the whatwg mailing list, that appears to not have been pursued any further
  466. # [23:25] <norbert_> to me it seems that almost everyone considering using HTML5 <video> would run into this problem
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  468. # [23:26] <norbert_> except people with near unlimited bandwidth/lots of money, or people who only embed very small videos
  469. # [23:28] <rillian> norbert_: if the user closes the tab before the video finishes the user-agent will stop downloading
  470. # [23:29] <rillian> and most will only buffer a few hundred MB
  471. # [23:29] <norbert_> yes, but what if someone starts watching a 1Gb movie of 2 hours for 5 minutes
  472. # [23:29] <norbert_> few hundred MB is so much for my setup, my content provider would contact me for sure
  473. # [23:29] <norbert_> I want 1 minute buffered
  474. # [23:29] <rillian> sadly, this is why youtube wins
  475. # [23:30] <norbert_> yes, but why
  476. # [23:30] <norbert_> someone made a good suggestion in January 2011
  477. # [23:30] <norbert_> and for some reason it hasn't been pursued any further
  478. # [23:30] <norbert_> http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/whatwg-whatwg.org/2011-January/029967.html
  479. # [23:31] <rillian> I suspect you're correct; no one cares about your bandwidth limitations enough to implement that
  480. # [23:31] <rillian> as simon said, you can control buffering yourself with the media source api
  481. # [23:31] <rillian> but it is significantly more complicated; requires js be enabled, etc.
  482. # [23:32] <norbert_> JavaScript enabled is fine, that media source api, will it work in most browsers and is it cross-platform; the current implementations of it, I mean?
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  484. # [23:32] <norbert_> is there any HTML5 frontend on GitHub or wherever that'll take care of it for me?
  485. # [23:32] <rillian> we're implementing it in firefox; it already works in chrome
  486. # [23:32] <rillian> not sure about the other browsers
  487. # [23:33] <norbert_> ok
  488. # [23:33] <rillian> (other browsers don't play webm by default anyway)
  489. # [23:33] <norbert_> well, .ogv or whatever
  490. # [23:33] <norbert_> but em...
  491. # [23:34] <norbert_> so, even when that media source api is full implemented everywhere, it'll still be difficult for most people to use <video> with limited buffering?
  492. # [23:34] <norbert_> since it's implicated ("significantly more complicated')
  493. # [23:34] <norbert_> it's really sad :(
  494. # [23:35] <norbert_> "no one cares about your bandwidth limitations enough to implement that"
  495. # [23:35] <norbert_> makes me sad
  496. # [23:36] <norbert_> everyone - except the big companies/people with unlimited money/bandwidth - who's considering HTML5 <video> is running into this
  497. # [23:36] <norbert_> I really want to use HTML5 <video>, but I don't see any other solution than to convert all my videos to flv for now
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  506. # [23:42] <Hixie_> norbert_: what are you trying to do exactly?
  507. # [23:43] <norbert_> I would like to add several large videos to my website, I have limited money and my content provider gives me limited bandwidth; I would like to use the HTML5 <video> tag, but if a visitor watches a 100Mb 10 minute video for 30 seconds, they download almost 100Mb just for 30 seconds
  508. # [23:44] <norbert_> so I want the YouTube-like buffering; that it only loads the next 10-30 seconds or so, even 1 minute would be much better than what it's doing now - just loading everything
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  510. # [23:44] <Hixie_> TabAtkins: btw, now that howcome's specs are in the whatwg, we also have bug components for them, so if there's parts of the specs that are vague, file bugs and cc me
  511. # [23:44] <norbert_> but this isn't possible with HTML5's <video> tag, because there's no such option
  512. # [23:44] <Hixie_> norbert_: that's the default, isn't it?
  513. # [23:45] <norbert_> it was suggested in 2011, but hasn't been pursued any further
  514. # [23:45] <norbert_> seehttp://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/whatwg-whatwg.org/2011-January/029967.html
  515. # [23:45] <Hixie_> i mean, browsers might not have implemented it right, but...
  516. # [23:45] <norbert_> Hixie_: the default is to load everything when a user presses play
  517. # [23:46] <norbert_> which means a 1Gb video of 2 hours fully loads if a user with a nice Internet connection watches the first 5 minutes
  518. # [23:46] <Hixie_> the default is "Hints to the user agent that the user agent can put the user's needs first without risk to the server, up to and including optimistically downloading the entire resource"
  519. # [23:46] <Hixie_> ah, right. the case you want is preload=metadata
  520. # [23:46] <Hixie_> "When the media resource is playing, hints to the user agent that bandwidth is to be considered scarce, e.g. suggesting throttling the download so that the media data is obtained at the slowest possible rate that still maintains consistent playback"
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  522. # [23:47] <norbert_> preload=metadata isn't useful either, because after pressing play, everything loads
  523. # [23:47] <Hixie_> that's a bug, if so
  524. # [23:47] <Hixie_> with the browser
  525. # [23:47] <norbert_> wait, preload=metadata limits loading?
  526. # [23:47] <Hixie_> it's what the spec says
  527. # [23:47] <Hixie_> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#attr-media-preload
  528. # [23:47] <norbert_> preload=metadata sounds like it preloads the "metadata" about the video
  529. # [23:48] <norbert_> metadata, like length, first image to display as a thumbnail, and so on
  530. # [23:48] <Hixie_> it could be called duck=snake, what matters is what the spec defines it as, not what it sounds like
  531. # [23:48] <norbert_> but I guess I could have misinterpreted that
  532. # [23:48] <norbert_> if what you say is true
  533. # [23:49] <norbert_> then why did rillian comment like what I want is impossible
  534. # [23:49] <Hixie_> no need to take my word for it, you can read the spec to check me
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  536. # [23:50] <norbert_> " When the media resource is playing, hints to the user agent that bandwidth is to be considered scarce, e.g. suggesting throttling the download so that the media data is obtained at the slowest possible rate that still maintains consistent playback."
  537. # [23:50] <norbert_> yeah
  538. # [23:50] <rillian> norbert_: what I was was trying to say is that browsers are between what you want and what you're afraid they will do.
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  541. # [23:50] <norbert_> I don't understand what you mean
  542. # [23:50] <norbert_> they are "between"?
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  544. # [23:50] <norbert_> they load more than I'd probably want, but less than everything?
  545. # [23:51] <norbert_> because the browser can decide
  546. # [23:51] <norbert_> but here for example
  547. # [23:51] <norbert_> http://www.popot.org/get_the_games.php?extra=PoP3D_making
  548. # [23:51] <norbert_> when I press play, in the first 13 seconds it loads the whole thing (24Mb)
  549. # [23:52] <norbert_> of the 12:08 minute video
  550. # [23:52] <norbert_> 13 seconds
  551. # [23:52] <norbert_> 24Mb
  552. # [23:52] <norbert_> and it's set on preload="metadata"
  553. # [23:53] <norbert_> that's in Firefox 25.0, by the way
  554. # [23:53] <norbert_> so what you're saying is that, maybe, if that would be 200Mb it wouldn't load everything but stop somewhere after 24Mb?
  555. # [23:55] <norbert_> all I see is that Firefox is ignoring the whatwg specification
  556. # [23:55] <Hixie_> file a bug
  557. # [23:55] <norbert_> because 24Mb (12:08 minutes) in 13 seconds doesn't seem like considering bandwidth scarce
  558. # [23:57] <norbert_> preload="metadata"
  559. # [23:57] <KevinMarks> You can throttle on your server end, surely? Tcp is a negotiation
  560. # [23:57] <norbert_> maybe W3C describes that differently and Firefox doesn't implement what whatwg says?
  561. # [23:58] <Hixie_> if firefox is implementing the w3c spec and not the whatwg spec, also file a bug :-)
  562. # [23:58] <norbert_> KevinMarks: I'm a basic Internet user and only have an account with a content provider, with limited bandwidth; I don't think I can do much except add a .htaccess?
  563. # [23:59] <norbert_> http://www.w3.org/wiki/HTML/Elements/video
  564. # [23:59] <norbert_> "metadata": Hints to the UA that the user is not expected to need the video, but that fetching its metadata (dimensions, first frame, track list, duration, and so on) is desirable.
  565. # [23:59] <norbert_> that whole scarce thing is a whatwg thing
  566. # [23:59] <norbert_> and Firefox probably just ignores that
  567. # [23:59] <Hixie_> uh, that's not the w3c fork of the html spec, it's just some wiki page
  568. # Session Close: Mon Nov 11 00:00:00 2013

The end :)