/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2013-11-28 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Nov 28 00:00:00 2013
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  5. # [00:08] <SteveF> JonathanNeal: if semantic fiction is your bag - go with the whatwg advice on headings
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  8. # [00:12] <JonathanNeal> Hixie: not in IE11.
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  12. # [00:14] <Hixie> JonathanNeal: thanks
  13. # [00:15] <JonathanNeal> SteveF: you haven't said <hgroup> will cause any breakage in and of itself, and I'm not sure whether you're saying I should be careful with <h1-6> usage. Sorry if I missed you addressing the latter point quite clearly.
  14. # [00:17] <JonathanNeal> I bring up the <h1-6> stuff since <hgroup> is strictly for them. And, related, <subhead> is basically the liberal version of <hgroup>, right?
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  16. # [00:18] <Hixie> (what's <subhead>?)
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  18. # [00:20] <JonathanNeal> Hixie: http://html5doctor.com/howto-subheadings/ and the June 2013 revised http://rawgithub.com/w3c/subline/master/index.html
  19. # [00:20] <Hixie> man, and some people accuse _me_ of nih syndrome...
  20. # [00:20] <SteveF> JonathanNeal: the post i linked to previously explains why relying on the outline for doc structure is bogus, so need to use h1-h6, <hgroup> is same as <div class="hgroup"> as far as anything other than CSS styling
  21. # [00:21] <JonathanNeal> <subhead> was SteveF's response to the community of devs saying they wanted some semantic indication of subheadings if <hgroup> was going to be pulled.
  22. # [00:22] <Hixie> SteveF is right that if you want today's tools and yesterday's tools to generate good outlines, you should stick to h1-h6 and avoid the newer h1-only approaches
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  24. # [00:22] <Hixie> that's somewhat orthogonal to hgroup, though
  25. # [00:23] <Hixie> and it's true not just of the h1-only thing, but of any new feature of html
  26. # [00:23] <Hixie> it takes years for these things to deploy widely
  27. # [00:24] <Hixie> as far as hgroup goes, in such legacy UAs it just falls back to the same thing as the w3c has been doing for years with subheadings (e.g. on all their specs)
  28. # [00:24] <Hixie> which is technically suboptimal, but nobody really notices other than OCD people like me, so it's fine for a fallback :-)
  29. # [00:25] <SteveF> not all specs: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/
  30. # [00:25] <Hixie> yes well the less i say about that document the better
  31. # [00:26] <SteveF> yeah probably true
  32. # [00:26] <Hixie> (sure would be nice if you stopped copying all my work though, if you're just going to mess it up afterwards)
  33. # [00:29] <SteveF> I don't copy just mess
  34. # [00:30] <JonathanNeal> After 6 months, it seemed like it was worth seeing what progress has been made to address subheadings.
  35. # [00:31] <Hixie> JonathanNeal: yeah
  36. # [00:31] <JonathanNeal> It sounds like one approach is to follow a spec that gives subheadings semantic meaning but relies on future compatibility, and the other is to drop any semantic hope for the time being, and just rely on divs to style.
  37. # [00:31] <Hixie> JonathanNeal: the problem with <hgroup> is that the FUD that the w3c spec has added to the mix means that it'll be even longer than normal for this to get implemented widely, unfortunately
  38. # [00:32] <Hixie> JonathanNeal: almost like a self-fulfiling prophecy
  39. # [00:32] <SteveF> JonathanNeal: like i said semantic fiction go for it
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  41. # [00:35] <SteveF> ride the unicorn http://blog.paciellogroup.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/pinkunicorn.png
  42. # [00:39] <JonathanNeal> SteveF: go for what, or which, rather? I was trying to see both points of view. To be clear, in your mind, SteveF, you don't think there's a foreseeable future (say, the next +6 months) with semantic subheadings, subtitles, taglines and bylines in the W3C spec?
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  48. # [00:46] <SteveF> JonathanNeal: if somebody comes along to move it forward then we may see progress, otherwise no, until such times that there is some meaningful way to convey subheading semantics, the requirement in the HTML spec is don't use multiple headings unless you intend it to be a new section or subsection as that is the semantic info that is conveyed:
  49. # [00:46] <SteveF> JonathanNeal: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/common-idioms.html#sub-head
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  53. # [00:49] <JonathanNeal> That's pretty clear. Thanks. The part I'd like some clarification on is the "somebody" who "comes along to move it forward". Who does this somebody need to be or what do they need to do to move it forward?
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  55. # [00:49] <JonathanNeal> SteveF: ^
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  59. # [00:53] <SteveF> JonathanNeal: anybody who is interested see http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ExtensionHowTo on mechanics, if you want to take the subhead proposal and work on it go ahead https://github.com/w3c/subline pull/push/fork break remake
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  63. # [01:07] <JonathanNeal> Domenic_: min assumes a zero-like value?
  64. # [01:07] <JonathanNeal> Whoops, very delayed response to your question.
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  76. # [01:24] <JonathanNeal> The really tragic part about all of this is that JAWS 15 removed support for <hgroup> where it had previously supported it.
  77. # [01:24] <JonathanNeal> So, we actually took a step back.
  78. # [01:26] <JonathanNeal> I'm sorry, I meant to say that it supported the outline algorithm (sectioning elements). Not sure about <hgroup> though I imagine they were all bundled together.
  79. # [01:29] <zcorpan> annevk: including .float is actually intended. but there's a use counter for dashed properties and for float, so we'll see what that gives
  80. # [01:29] <Domenic_> JonathanNeal: why do care what the W3C spec says?
  81. # [01:30] <jamesr__> semantically correct website: http://motherfuckingwebsite.com/
  82. # [01:30] <jamesr__> actually, can someone check if his use of <strong> is appropriate?
  83. # [01:30] <jamesr__> i think it's right
  84. # [01:30] <Domenic_> Haha speaking of subheadings he uses <aside> for that
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  88. # [01:31] <jamesr__> Note: It's not appropriate to use the aside element just for parentheticals, since those are part of the main flow of the document.
  89. # [01:31] <jamesr__> is that a parenthetical, or is it separable from the main flow of the document?
  90. # [01:32] <Domenic_> It seems parenthetical. Certainly not separable.
  91. # [01:32] <jamesr__> i think it's sufficiently separable to use an <aside>
  92. # [01:32] <Domenic_> ok i just realized by uttering those words i made myself into a monster and so am leaving this conversation now.
  93. # [01:33] <jamesr__> i think we have to fight now
  94. # [01:33] <jamesr__> or at least file formal objections against each other
  95. # [01:34] <JonathanNeal> I think Domenic_ is suggesting a <PAREN> tag.
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  97. # [01:35] <JonathanNeal> </SARCASM>
  98. # [01:35] <zcorpan> Domenic_: the blockquote usage is wrong (per whatwg spec at least)
  99. # [01:36] <JonathanNeal> That's true, plus you should use <footer> for cites.
  100. # [01:36] <zcorpan> not according to the spec
  101. # [01:37] <Domenic_> zcorpan: cuz he's missing <p>s?
  102. # [01:37] <Domenic_> http://developers.whatwg.org/grouping-content.html#the-blockquote-element
  103. # [01:37] <zcorpan> Domenic_: no
  104. # [01:37] <Domenic_> oh because the person's name is inside the quote
  105. # [01:37] <zcorpan> yes
  106. # [01:37] <zcorpan> and the quote marks should probably be omitted also
  107. # [01:38] <zcorpan> of course some people like hsivonen think that that usage is correct and the spec is wrong
  108. # [01:38] <JonathanNeal> I care because I write websites with subheadings all the time, and it frustrates me when a bunch of us create websites and guides to writing websites that rely on some new feature, and then it gets removed, nullifying a bunch of advice, offering no equivalent solution, and later noting a lack of adoption.
  109. # [01:38] <JonathanNeal> To respond to your initial question, Domenic_.
  110. # [01:39] <Domenic_> JonathanNeal: no, that doesn't really answer the question. My question was more, "why do you think the W3C spec is any more relevant than King Lear is?"
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  112. # [01:40] <JonathanNeal> Hey, no need to randomly insult the works of Shakespeare.
  113. # [01:40] <JonathanNeal> I think it's relevant because it obviously has an impact on implementation and adoption.
  114. # [01:41] <Domenic_> Really?
  115. # [01:42] <JonathanNeal> Yes. To quote from earlier "the problem with <hgroup> is that the FUD that the w3c spec has added to the mix means that it'll be even longer than normal for this to get implemented widely, unfortunately".
  116. # [01:42] <Domenic_> Heh, fair.
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  118. # [01:43] <Domenic_> I guess, my approach is to not let the W3C spec affect how I author or teach. I can see having to deal with the fallout from its existence though.
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  122. # [01:45] <JonathanNeal> Interesting to see the difference in the solutions, <figure><blockquote/><figcaption/></figure> BS <blockquote><p>[...]<footer/></blockquote>.
  123. # [01:45] <JonathanNeal> In regards to what you just shared earlier. I never knew there was alignment issue with blockquote recommendations too.
  124. # [01:47] <Domenic_> the number of alignment issues is numerous and growing
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  126. # [01:48] <JonathanNeal> And scrolling down http://html5doctor.com/blockquote-q-cite/#comment-23768 reveals that the post may be inaccurate.
  127. # [01:49] <Domenic_> the thing i love about the html5doctor comments section is the number of hidden tags from people who forgot they had to type &lt; and &gt;
  128. # [01:50] <JonathanNeal> I still agree with http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/hgroup which is why I rally this subject every so often.
  129. # [01:51] <JonathanNeal> But <hgroup> is closer to what is needed, way better than nothing.
  130. # [01:52] * zcorpan finds http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2011Nov/0031.html
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  148. # [02:31] <SteveF> JonathanNeal: "<JonathanNeal> The really tragic part about all of this is that JAWS 15 removed support for <hgroup> where it had previously supported it. " JAWS never supported hgroup or proper outline nesting
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  150. # [02:32] <SteveF> Domenic_:"<Domenic_> JonathanNeal: why do care what the W3C spec says? you may not care but lost of dev's do...
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  153. # [02:34] <JonathanNeal> SteveF: I made a correction to that quote.
  154. # [02:34] <JonathanNeal> And they did support outline nesting, moreso then than now.
  155. # [02:35] <SteveF> Jonatahan:Neal: yeah saw that after, unfortunately it was borked, we tried to work with them to fix it but they were not interested
  156. # [02:35] <SteveF> thier implementation of the oultine was borked that is
  157. # [02:38] <JonathanNeal> Help me understand what I perceive to be a dichotomy. You're contributing to a spec that you're also telling people is dangerous fiction to follow, in regards to sectioning elements.
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  159. # [02:41] <JonathanNeal> And then, why not remove the sectioning part of elements from the w3 draft if they're dangerous, as <hgroup> was removed since it relied so heavily on them.
  160. # [02:42] <SteveF> JonathaNeal: no dichotomy, I have modified the advice/requirements in the HTML spec to provide guidance on the use of hx, the outline algorithm is still there sure maybe one day it will become useful and then the advice heading use can be changed, either way.
  161. # [02:43] <JonathanNeal> What is the difference between removing a feature and "sure maybe one day"-keeping it?
  162. # [02:44] <SteveF> JonathonNeal: there are no implementation requirements on browsers for the outline algorithm
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  164. # [02:46] <SteveF> JonathanNeal: but sure if the WG decide that the outline algorithm is a waste of space then it will get dropped, we haven't reached that point yet
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  167. # [02:50] <SteveF> JonathanNeal: if you think there needs to be clearer advice re fiction of outline then please file a bug or email the html list or me or whatever.
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  169. # [02:51] <JonathanNeal> It was my hope that dropping <hgroup> meant getting something better. Your <subline/subhead> draft did that, but it never made it into a spec. Now there's a hole (an acknowledged hole) in the mutually agreed upon outlining algorithm. I've followed http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/hgroup for years now. I'm sad to see it stale.
  170. # [02:51] <SteveF> JonathanNeal: then unstale it
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  172. # [02:52] <SteveF> JonathanNeal: things change if people do stuff
  173. # [02:54] <JonathanNeal> Yea, I'm working on the great barrier of logging into the system.
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  175. # [02:56] <JonathanNeal> I'd like to harmonize the current git work with the w3 wiki, which might ultimately help get the w3 spec and the whatwg spec in more harmony, but I can't use my w3.org creds on the w3 wiki.
  176. # [02:57] <SteveF> Domenic_: also note that the differences in the 2 specs are almost all about author conformance requirements, so browser implementer folk need not care if they don't wish to, conformance checker implementers do (in the case of main for example, which was developed at w3c and rewritten differently by hixie) and that is reflected in implementations.
  177. # [02:58] <Domenic_> As an author, I pay attention to the source material, not a fork.
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  179. # [02:59] <SteveF> Domenic_: fair play to you, many devs don't take your view
  180. # [02:59] <Domenic_> I think most devs listen to w3schools :P
  181. # [03:00] <SteveF> Domenic_:yeah and they dropped hgroup a while back...
  182. # [03:00] <Domenic_> haha
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  242. # [05:38] <MikeSmith> gsnedders: that validator message you saw isn't because of that server not resolving. It's expected that it doesn't resolve. The validator uses an internal resolver to map those URLs to locally cached copies of the schemas.
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  350. # [09:56] <hsivonen> annevk-cloud: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=910187#c2 surprises me considering that we stopped recognizing the Armscii-8 label in Firefox 19 and no other browser engine support it
  351. # [09:57] <Ms2ger> Hmm, Armscii-8
  352. # [09:58] <Ms2ger> I think I still have a patch lying around to remove the decoder
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  365. # [10:20] * Ms2ger wonders where MikeSmith is on http://www.w3.org/2013/11/w3cteam
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  367. # [10:21] <jgraham> Ms2ger: Pretty sure I would deny knowing MikeSmith too ;)
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  369. # [10:21] <SteveF> Ms2ger: front far right
  370. # [10:22] <SteveF> he looks photoshopped
  371. # [10:23] <Ms2ger> Heh
  372. # [10:23] <jgraham> The whole photo looks very strange
  373. # [10:24] <jgraham> I think it had a lot of noise reduction applied to it or something
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  376. # [10:26] <darobin> jgraham: I don't think that much noise reduction was applied to it
  377. # [10:27] <darobin> I mean I saw the original, it wasn't very noisy
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  379. # [10:30] <Ms2ger> Oh, darobin is on there too?
  380. # [10:30] <darobin> damn right
  381. # [10:31] <Ms2ger> "Nothing precludes the author from using custom elements in HEAD."
  382. # [10:31] <darobin> Ms2ger: I'm roughly in the middle, grey tee with sunglasses hanging from it
  383. # [10:31] <darobin> yeah, that made my day too
  384. # [10:32] <Ms2ger> With the weird grin?
  385. # [10:32] <jgraham> darobin: Well there must be some reason everything looks so smudgy, except at areas of high contrast where there is a kind of halo effect
  386. # [10:33] <darobin> jgraham: I think that's because it may have been compressed a bit too much
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  388. # [10:34] <jgraham> Ms2ger: Which message is that from?
  389. # [10:34] <darobin> Ms2ger: possibly :)
  390. # [10:34] <Ms2ger> jgraham, http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2013OctDec/0610.html
  391. # [10:34] <darobin> jgraham: webapps
  392. # [10:34] <jgraham> darobin: Hmm, I guess that might well have a similar effect
  393. # [10:34] <jgraham> darobin: Right, webapps isn't a message :p
  394. # [10:35] <Ms2ger> darobin, also, is that a burrito you're holding?
  395. # [10:35] <darobin> yeah yeah, there were like five messages overnight
  396. # [10:35] <darobin> Ms2ger: well spotted! but no
  397. # [10:35] <jgraham> Ah. Well good to know that the people in charge of our glorious future understand how the platform works
  398. # [10:35] <darobin> it's a pinny as they say over the Channel
  399. # [10:36] <darobin> we made dumpings
  400. # [10:36] <Ms2ger> jgraham, it does open body, right?
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  403. # [10:37] <darobin> yes
  404. # [10:38] <darobin> but hey, nothing indeed prevents you from putting whatever you want between <head> and </head> :)
  405. # [10:39] <jgraham> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/2665
  406. # [10:39] <jgraham> I mean nothing does strop you putting stuff in <head>
  407. # [10:39] <jgraham> As long as you don't actually use the HTML parser
  408. # [10:40] <jgraham> For example you could send your document in JSON and insert all the content using the DOM
  409. # [10:40] <darobin> right
  410. # [10:40] <jgraham> Actually
  411. # [10:40] <jgraham> Pretend I didn't say that
  412. # [10:40] <jgraham> Otherwise someone will think it's a great idea
  413. # [10:40] * darobin trots off to make a spec for it
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  415. # [10:41] <darobin> I'll put it in the same document in which I define a z attribute on every SVG element so that we have declarative 3D
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  417. # [10:46] <Ms2ger> jgraham, surely it would be more readable to use the html5lib tests tree format
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  430. # [11:07] <Ms2ger> Hixie, thanks for the acid3 update
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  441. # [11:39] <MikeSmith> I photoshopped myself into that photo, as SteveF correctly surmised. I photoshopped in darobin too, which is why he's grinning.
  442. # [11:40] <MikeSmith> At the the time that photo was taken I was away for a bit helping the Shenzhen Internet Police refine some of their man-in-the-middle systems.
  443. # [11:41] <Ms2ger> I see
  444. # [11:41] <Ms2ger> That explains why you aren't listed in the description
  445. # [11:49] <darobin> and I had fled the country to escape the slashback for w3cmemes
  446. # [11:50] <MikeSmith> heh
  447. # [11:57] <MikeSmith> I heard w3cmemes barely made it out of China alive.
  448. # [11:57] <MikeSmith> Alternatively I heard that w3cmemes was seen crossing the border back to HK in the back seat of a PRC limousine, smoking a cigar.
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  450. # [11:59] <MikeSmith> Ms2ger: I'm listed as "Bert Bos", which is an anagram for "Michael[tm] Smith"
  451. # [11:59] * MikeSmith wonders what update Hixie made to Acid3
  452. # [12:01] <hsivonen> annevk-cloud: check out the source on http://main.am/armenianchurch/Program/General/FS2-1.htm
  453. # [12:02] <hsivonen> that site is a fascinating combination of pre-Unicode and post-Acid3 Web tech
  454. # [12:03] <hsivonen> anyway, the report about armscii-8 support being needed lost its credibility, since that site doesn't actually use armscii-8 support
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  457. # [12:12] <Ms2ger> MikeSmith, http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2013Nov/0013.html
  458. # [12:13] <Ms2ger> MikeSmith, and I've seen Bert Bos, sorry :)
  459. # [12:14] * MikeSmith notes that Ms2ger says he's sorry that he's seen Bert Bos
  460. # [12:15] <MikeSmith> Ms2ger: thanks for the link
  461. # [12:15] <annevk> hsivonen: charset=x-user-defined o_O
  462. # [12:16] <annevk> oh lol, character references all the way down
  463. # [12:16] <hsivonen> annevk: right. it doesn't actually use the x-user-defined range
  464. # [12:16] <hsivonen> annevk: instead, it assigns the Armenian glyphs to the Latin-1 Supplement range
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  466. # [12:16] <hsivonen> and it supplies a font via @font-face
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  468. # [12:17] <hsivonen> so x-user-defined only has an effect if you have that same font installed locally in a pre-@font-face Firefox
  469. # [12:17] <annevk> wow, I thought that was an India only thing
  470. # [12:17] <hsivonen> annevk: me, too
  471. # [12:18] <hsivonen> anyway, not evidence of armscii-8 use
  472. # [12:18] <hsivonen> and explains how Chrome can succeed in Armenia
  473. # [12:21] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: you mean you think that there are a lot of sites doing that?
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  475. # [12:21] <MikeSmith> (doing what that page is doing I mean)
  476. # [12:24] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: not sure what I should think. the author of that page claims there are more like that, but he/she already made a untrue claim, so I'm not sure what to believe
  477. # [12:26] <MikeSmith> I guess it's more likely that hack is probably not something he dreamed up himself
  478. # [12:26] <MikeSmith> but instead just copied from some other more widely used site
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  480. # [12:27] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: that sort of commandeering Latin 1 characters for non-Latin glyphs is not an isolated incident
  481. # [12:28] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: used to be a thing in India
  482. # [12:28] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: dunno how common the exact combination of x-user-defined with entities is, though
  483. # [12:28] <MikeSmith> ah OK
  484. # [12:28] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: Then it shouldn't cause an exception trying to start!
  485. # [12:29] <MikeSmith> gsnedders: indeed
  486. # [12:29] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: anyway, what that site does today is interoperably supported
  487. # [12:29] <hsivonen> (armscii-8 isn't and wasn't)
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  490. # [12:30] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: yeah the guy who posted that bug just seemed to not even understand what he was doing himself, or what was actually needed and being used in practice for Armenian
  491. # [12:31] <MikeSmith> (or the guy who commented there in the recent comment -- I guess he's not the one who raised the bug)
  492. # [12:31] <MikeSmith> gsnedders: did you make any changes the validator sources locally?
  493. # [12:31] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: No.
  494. # [12:32] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: I literally just followed the published instructions, checked out build than ran the Python script twice
  495. # [12:32] <MikeSmith> ok
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  497. # [12:33] <MikeSmith> can you please try running it one more time?
  498. # [12:33] <gsnedders> Sure.
  499. # [12:33] <hsivonen> how come Emoji landed in Unicode before https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arevakhach ?
  500. # [12:33] <gsnedders> (I don't actually care. I just want a small bit of the Validator.nu source. :P)
  501. # [12:33] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: Third time lucky, seems to be working
  502. # [12:33] <MikeSmith> gsnedders: I care if I broke something :)
  503. # [12:34] <MikeSmith> gsnedders: yeah I guess we need to modify the build instructions then
  504. # [12:34] <MikeSmith> "Re-run the build script until it doesn't fail any more."
  505. # [12:34] <annevk> in response to last night, seems markup mu has not yet been achieved
  506. # [12:34] <hsivonen> gsnedders: it's possible that I broke the appearance of something that was broken not being broken, if this is about it actually trying to fetch something from s.validator.nu
  507. # [12:34] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: :)
  508. # [12:35] <gsnedders> gsnedders: Yes
  509. # [12:35] <gsnedders> gsnedders: Why are you talking to yourself?
  510. # [12:35] <gsnedders> hsivonen: Yes.
  511. # [12:35] <hsivonen> gsnedders: that suggests our mapping of magic bogo URLs to local data is broken
  512. # [12:36] <gsnedders> hsivonen: But only on second run of build
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  514. # [12:36] <hsivonen> weird
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  528. # [12:50] <MikeSmith> hsivonen, gsnedders I think it's most likely something I messed up in the last few months. I'll try to look at it when I can make the time
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  532. # [12:59] <annevk> Custom elements made it to CR?
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  535. # [13:02] <MikeSmith> annevk: I thought it just went to LC recenlty
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  538. # [13:02] <annevk> MikeSmith: I think the way it works is that nobody has even noticed that happened
  539. # [13:02] <MikeSmith> heh
  540. # [13:03] <annevk> MikeSmith: apart from rniwa from Apple it seems, but his alternative proposal was not seen as a comment
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  543. # [13:06] <MikeSmith> annevk: I'm glad at least there's a plan in place to clear up the confusion in the future http://w3cmemes.tumblr.com/post/66838310443/disappointed-in-the-guardians-of-the-process
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  545. # [13:07] <MikeSmith> annevk: if they missed an alternative proposal I doubt it was intentional
  546. # [13:07] <MikeSmith> I'll ask Yves
  547. # [13:08] <annevk> MikeSmith: it seems to be mentioned in http://www.w3.org/wiki/Webapps/LCWD-custom-elements-20131024/ so I guess I was missing something
  548. # [13:08] <annevk> MikeSmith: still not convinced that with four comments, all of the monkey patching going on, this is actually ready
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  551. # [13:11] <MikeSmith> annevk: I think if Apple's saying they're not planning on implementing as specified it's not ready
  552. # [13:12] <MikeSmith> especially if they are saying they'll implement it if changes are made
  553. # [13:17] <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/wiki/Webapps/LCWD-custom-elements-20131024/#LC-2 seems to be dglazkov saying he plans to resolve the comment without making any changes
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  590. # [15:03] <annevk> hsivonen: it seems Chrome does not respect x-user-defined as a label
  591. # [15:03] <annevk> hsivonen: at least not in HTML context
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  613. # [15:47] <darobin> jgraham or Ms2ger: am I guessing correctly that all the WPT tests starting with html5lib_ in html/syntax/parsing are generated automatically from the html5lib test suite?
  614. # [15:47] <darobin> and if so, I guess that if I wanted to modify them it'd be best to patch upstream? which in turns begs the question of finding the converter and all
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  616. # [15:48] <Ms2ger> Yes
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  618. # [15:48] <jgraham> darobin: Yes
  619. # [15:48] <Ms2ger> The converter should be in wpt
  620. # [15:48] <Ms2ger> Under tools/?
  621. # [15:48] <jgraham> The converter is in tools
  622. # [15:48] <darobin> ah
  623. # [15:48] * darobin digs
  624. # [15:48] <Ms2ger> And https://github.com/html5lib/html5lib-tests
  625. # [15:49] <darobin> found it, thanks a lot!
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  665. # [17:45] <zcorpan> jgraham: if i want to test that ping=... got resolved correctly in the POST request, how should i do that? a naive way would be to stash the result and then do an XHR, but i think that has some problems like what if the XHR happens before the ping happens, what if ping isn't supported...
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  669. # [17:46] <zcorpan> i guess i could feature-check for ping and fail early. if the feature check passes but the ping isn't sent anyway, the test can time out
  670. # [17:46] <jgraham> zcorpan: I guess you need to do the ping-causing action and then have a timeout to do the XHR
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  672. # [17:47] <jgraham> If it can be delayed for an arbitary amount of time it seems impossible to tell for sure whether if succeeded or not
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  674. # [17:47] <zcorpan> can't i do the XHR immediately and have the server script wait with returning anything until the stash is there?
  675. # [17:47] <jgraham> Well sure, I guess
  676. # [17:48] <jgraham> But that still needs some kind of timeout
  677. # [17:48] <zcorpan> isn't the harness timeout enough?
  678. # [17:49] <jgraham> On the server side I mean
  679. # [17:50] <jgraham> You can't juet let the script run forever
  680. # [17:50] <zcorpan> the script isn't killed if the test is navigated?
  681. # [17:50] <jgraham> No, how would that work?
  682. # [17:51] <zcorpan> the browser closes the XHR connection on navigation, i thought. but maybe it doesn't?
  683. # [17:51] <jgraham> Right, but the server won't notice that
  684. # [17:52] <zcorpan> ok. is that intentional?
  685. # [17:52] <jgraham> Well intentional in the sense that I don't know how to do it another way
  686. # [17:53] <jgraham> You would need to know whether the remote end had closed the socket. But I don't know how to tell without trying to send something over it
  687. # [17:53] <zcorpan> i was imagining some magic where the server would notice that the connection was closed and kill the script
  688. # [17:53] <jgraham> There isn't any such magic
  689. # [17:53] <zcorpan> k
  690. # [17:53] <jgraham> If someone knows how to add such magic, it might be a good idea
  691. # [17:55] <zcorpan> i don't know what the socket api is like. but it seems a bit weird to not be notified about the socket closing. but i recall pywebsocket also not knowing about it
  692. # [17:55] <zcorpan> maybe my mental model of how sockets work is just wrong
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  695. # [18:07] <zewt> not completely following the conversation, but you can definitely tell if the other side has closed a TCP connection
  696. # [18:08] <jgraham> zewt: Using getsockopt? Or something else?
  697. # [18:09] <zewt> just by trying to read it; you'll get an EOF (and a read signal from select)
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  699. # [18:16] <jgraham> Can I actually use that in this situation though?
  700. # [18:18] <zewt> not familiar with what you're doing ... are you testing against a dummy server to see what the browser is doing?
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  702. # [18:19] <jgraham> I don't know what the difference between a dummy server and a real server
  703. # [18:19] <jgraham> is
  704. # [18:19] <Ms2ger> The words "dummy" and "real"
  705. # [18:20] <jgraham> But yeah, I have a server
  706. # [18:20] <jgraham> and it does some work
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  708. # [18:20] <jgraham> and maybe, by the time the work is done, the client has closed the connection
  709. # [18:20] <zewt> a real server being apache or nginx or something that you're just making requests against, as opposed to something designed to inspect some particular behavior
  710. # [18:20] <Ms2ger> dglazkov, :)
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  712. # [18:21] <jgraham> It's a real server in the sense that you don't directly access the inner state of the server
  713. # [18:21] <jgraham> when running tests
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  718. # [18:26] <zewt> well, the server can tell if the client has closed the connection; whether you can make use of that in whatever it is you're doing with whatever server you're using I couldn't tell you :)
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  746. # [19:29] <SimonSapin> annevk: https://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=324251#c2 says data: URLs have no fragment (it’s part of the "content") because rfc2397 doesn’t talk about it. I disagree. What do you think?
  747. # [19:29] <Ms2ger> What does the fo^Wspec say?
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  749. # [19:29] <annevk> SimonSapin: you're correct, that's been proven long ago
  750. # [19:30] <annevk> SimonSapin: fragment identifiers are part of all URLs
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  752. # [19:30] <annevk> SimonSapin: the way the IETF defines URIs with ABNF on a per-scheme basis makes this confusing admittedly; but the URL Standard solves that
  753. # [19:32] <annevk> SimonSapin: pretty sure that bug is a duplicate btw
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  755. # [19:42] <zcorpan> jgraham: another thing i want to do is get the raw characters for a part of the request url. what i came up with was re.match(r'q=([^&]+)', request.url_parts.query).groups()[0]
  756. # [19:43] <jgraham> zcorpan: That seems like it would work
  757. # [19:45] <jgraham> I admit it isn't super-pretty, but in most cases request.GET will be good enough
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  759. # [19:45] <zcorpan> yeah it seems to do the trick. at least when the url only has ascii-range bytes, iirc (old?) IE can request urls without percent-escaping and i don't know what would happen
  760. # [19:46] <jgraham> So making cases where it isn't good enough pretty seems like a lower priority
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  762. # [19:46] <zcorpan> yeah i don't disagree
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  764. # [19:48] <jgraham> You can go even lower level if something on the python side isn't playing well with non-ascii there e.g. request.url or request.request_line
  765. # [19:49] <jgraham> I think the regexp should work even if there is non-ascii, but you can easily test that in (i)python
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  768. # [19:51] <zcorpan> >>> re.search(r'q=([^&]+)', b'q=\xE5').groups()
  769. # [19:51] <zcorpan> ('\xe5',)
  770. # [19:52] <zcorpan> hmm i guess that wasn't what i wanted to test
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  778. # [20:12] <hsivonen> annevk-cloud: a quick looks at an Armenian legacy site suggests that IE doesn't do what Gecko does with x-user-defined, either
  779. # [20:12] <hsivonen> this sort of knowing Unicode-avoidance legacy is sad
  780. # [20:13] <hsivonen> for those following along at home, I'm looking at http://archive.aravot.am/2005/aravot_arm/February/25/aravot_index.htm
  781. # [20:14] <hsivonen> in any case, we should probably re-evaluate x-user-defined
  782. # [20:14] <hsivonen> and see if making it a label of windows-1252 would lead to better interop
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  784. # [20:18] <zcorpan> jgraham: urllib.urlopen(b'...\xE5').read() sends %E5 in the request
  785. # [20:19] <zcorpan> hsivonen: do webkit/ie support x-user-defined in XHR?
  786. # [20:19] <hsivonen> zcorpan: dunno. finding out would be part of re-evaluating
  787. # [20:20] <SimonSapin> hsivonen: x-user-defined is a documented trick to get binary data through XHR without arraybuffer support: https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/XMLHttpRequest/Using_XMLHttpRequest#Handling_binary_data
  788. # [20:21] * zcorpan finds https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/XMLHttpRequest/Using_XMLHttpRequest
  789. # [20:21] <zcorpan> SimonSapin beat me to it
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  799. # [20:49] <zcorpan> jgraham: writing \xe5 to a socket directly worked. it round-tripped OK
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  803. # [21:09] <BenoitRen> Hi everyone. I'm still trying to mark up video game scripts, and I've hit another snag.
  804. # [21:10] <BenoitRen> Suppose I have an NPC you can talk to. I'd mark it up like this: <h2>NPC name</h2><ol><li>something</li><li>something else</li></ol>
  805. # [21:10] <BenoitRen> Where the list items are the different lines you get.
  806. # [21:10] <BenoitRen> Now, what do I do if an action occurs during or after one of those lines?
  807. # [21:11] <zewt> ... what
  808. # [21:11] <BenoitRen> For example, there's a dog NPC you have to catch. You can interact with it twice before it runs off to another town.
  809. # [21:11] * rego_away is now known as rego
  810. # [21:11] <zewt> html isn't a script markup language. heh
  811. # [21:12] <BenoitRen> @zewt: I know that. But if I'm going to present it on a web page, I have to mark it up somehow.
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  843. # [22:44] <zcorpan> does firefox support ping=""?
  844. # [22:45] <zcorpan> i can't see it making a request
  845. # [22:46] <zcorpan> but the IDL attribute is present :-(
  846. # [22:49] <smaug____> zcorpan: IIRC it doesn't
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  848. # [22:49] <smaug____> there is still some code for the old proposal, but it is disabled by default
  849. # [22:49] <smaug____> (IMHO ping isn't too useful thing to add to the web platform)
  850. # [22:50] <zcorpan> it's sad that the .ping property is there but the feature doesn't work. feature detection fail
  851. # [22:50] <zcorpan> (also non-conforming)
  852. # [22:51] <smaug____> it sounds like a good thing. Some tracking company thinks it works, and doesn't even try to use more heavy weight solutions :)
  853. # [22:51] <smaug____> but I don't know why ping is there
  854. # [22:51] <smaug____> looking
  855. # [22:53] <zcorpan> more likely tracking companies will notice that it doesn't work and UA sniff for firefox, so when you do implement it you'll still have as bad user experience as without it :-)
  856. # [22:53] * zcorpan poof
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  858. # [22:54] <smaug____> anyhow, you can blame Google about this implementation
  859. # [22:54] <smaug____> http://bonsai.mozilla.org/cvsblame.cgi?file=mozilla/dom/public/idl/html/nsIDOMNSHTMLAnchorElement2.idl&rev=1.1
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  869. # [23:16] <zcorpan> smaug____: ok
  870. # [23:17] <zcorpan> smaug____: did you file a bug to remove it?
  871. # [23:17] <smaug____> nope
  872. # [23:18] <smaug____> I wonder what all will break if it is removed
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  874. # [23:24] <zcorpan> might be worth checking how google mobile search detects ping support, if it's just UA sniffing
  875. # [23:25] <zcorpan> good night
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  884. # Session Close: Fri Nov 29 00:00:00 2013

The end :)