/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2013-11-29 / end

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  103. # [09:09] <hsivonen> https://groups.google.com/d/msg/comp.infosystems.www.authoring.html/M1pz9cJJdxE/_OzpCv8dwwgJ
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  105. # [09:09] <hsivonen> "I _don't_ recommend what I'm about to say. However, it is sort-of
  106. # [09:09] <hsivonen> theoretically respectable."
  107. # [09:10] <davve> hel
  108. # [09:10] <davve> oops, wrong window.
  109. # [09:11] <odinho> :]
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  116. # [09:28] <Ms2ger> wowser developers, eh
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  118. # [09:32] <MikeSmith> is there spec yet for Mozilla data-store API that's been discussed in the sysapps WG?
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  120. # [09:34] <Ms2ger> I'd be surprised
  121. # [09:36] <MikeSmith> Ms2ger: do you remember who's pushing for it?
  122. # [09:36] <MikeSmith> I assume it's something wanted for b2g
  123. # [09:36] <Ms2ger> I'll guess... sicking
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  125. # [09:36] <MikeSmith> but I vaguely remember hearing that it was mainly wanted for stoarge for the messaging API
  126. # [09:36] <MikeSmith> Ms2ger: ok
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  128. # [09:37] <MikeSmith> https://wiki.mozilla.org/WebAPI/DataStore I guess
  129. # [09:37] <MikeSmith> who's Baku?
  130. # [09:40] <Ms2ger> Andrea
  131. # [09:42] <Ms2ger> (If that helps :))
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  140. # [10:03] <hsivonen> Ms2ger: "wowser" means Netscape that ignored SGML thruth
  141. # [10:04] <Ms2ger> That's from before my time :)
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  143. # [10:04] <hsivonen> right now, I'm pretty annoyed at Netscape developers who came up with the idea of supporting x-user-defined
  144. # [10:05] <hsivonen> s/thruth/truth/ even
  145. # [10:06] <hsivonen> aargh. this whole "Arial AM" thing happened after Armenian was already in Unicode 1.0. so sad
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  189. # [11:12] <hsivonen> annevk-cloud: check http://hsivonen.com/test/moz/x-user-defined/test-2-unknown-or-alias.htm out in Chrome
  190. # [11:13] <hsivonen> annevk-cloud: Is my conclusion that Chrome aliases x-user-defined to windows-1252 correct?
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  195. # [11:35] <zcorpan> hsivonen: it says <meta charset="windows-1252"> not 51
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  198. # [11:37] <hsivonen> zcorpan: good typo catch. Thanks.
  199. # [11:37] <hsivonen> zcorpan: even though my testing was wrong, I still found out about a Blink/WebKit quirk: https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=18270
  200. # [11:38] <hsivonen> https://mxr.mozilla.org/chromium/source/src/third_party/WebKit/Source/core/fetch/TextResourceDecoder.cpp#139
  201. # [11:38] <zcorpan> data:text/html;charset=x-user-defined,%C3%A5 is interesting in firefox
  202. # [11:39] <hsivonen> zcorpan: what's interesting about it?
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  204. # [11:41] <zcorpan> hsivonen: for me it renders a glyph for U+F7C3 followed by a "5"
  205. # [11:42] <zcorpan> hsivonen: but if i copy the text and paste into live dom viewer, the 5 becomes U+F7A5
  206. # [11:44] <zcorpan> hsivonen: anyway, a simpler test is <meta charset=x-user-defined><meta charset=utf-8>å (in utf-8)
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  208. # [11:44] <zcorpan> hsivonen: and compare with <meta charset=unknown><meta charset=utf-8>å
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  210. # [11:46] <zcorpan> hsivonen: same conclusion. same result in presto, too
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  212. # [11:49] <zcorpan> hsivonen: except presto says x-user-defined in your test
  213. # [11:54] <zcorpan> "My understanding is that IE treats x-user-defined differently based on some Registry settings" (from the bug above)
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  216. # [11:59] <hsivonen> zcorpan: good idea to test it like that: http://hsivonen.com/test/moz/x-user-defined/baseline.htm
  217. # [11:59] <hsivonen> zcorpan: good idea to test it like that: http://hsivonen.com/test/moz/x-user-defined/test.htm
  218. # [12:00] <hsivonen> the latter shows that x-user-defined decodes those bytes like windows-1252 on en-US IE11 but is a distict encoding
  219. # [12:00] <hsivonen> such a mess
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  222. # [12:05] <zcorpan> hsivonen: it seems weirder to special-case <meta> than to special-case XHR, imo
  223. # [12:05] <zcorpan> hsivonen: presto decodes as windows-1252 for both http header and <meta>
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  225. # [12:06] <zcorpan> hsivonen: i wonder what web pages expect that declare x-user-defined in http
  226. # [12:07] <Ms2ger> Do any? :)
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  230. # [12:15] <zcorpan> none in webdevdata.org-2013-09-01-201332
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  245. # [12:58] <hsivonen> zcorpan: I agree it's weirder, but I'd rather make Gecko consistent with Blink that try to get Blink to change
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  247. # [12:59] <hsivonen> it's bad enough that WebKit made stuff up like that. making up *different* weird stuff would be even worse, IMO.
  248. # [13:00] <jgraham> Kind of sad if we are reduced to treating blink as an immovable rock though
  249. # [13:00] <annevk> hsivonen: do you want to make me file a bug on HTML?
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  257. # [13:12] <zcorpan> hsivonen: i think it shouldn't be too hard to get this changed in blink if there are tests
  258. # [13:14] <hsivonen> annevk: that would be nice, yes, unless you think it's worthwhile to make Blink&WebKit invert what they special-case
  259. # [13:15] <hsivonen> jgraham: well, it's easier for me to clone the WebKit/Blink quirk and forget about this than to go around telling WebKit *and* Blink devs they should change something as obscure as this to make it make more sense
  260. # [13:16] <hsivonen> jgraham: that is, it's easier to just leave my sense of logic at the door and not fight the WebKit/Blink quirk
  261. # [13:17] <hsivonen> it's really sad, though, that some x-user-defined sites "improve" their state by using @font-face instead of migrating to UTF-8
  262. # [13:17] <hsivonen> as if doing things the right way was so terrible that it has to be avoided
  263. # [13:17] <hsivonen> not surprising for the Web, of course
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  273. # [13:31] <Ms2ger> "High level sincerity！"
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  275. # [13:32] <hsivonen> Ms2ger: ?
  276. # [13:34] <Ms2ger> hsivonen, http://www.w3.org/mid/CA+-d5Zr8E=WpH9sTACm3XBmopGn_VeJvVcy3Yx2oKvLGvFvaFQ@mail.gmail.com
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  285. # [13:48] <zcorpan> hmm, meta refresh support is optional in the spec. i'll assume that browsers aren't going to have it off by default so i can let the test fail (or time out) if it doesn't navigate
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  292. # [14:04] <annevk> hsivonen: okay, on it
  293. # [14:07] <annevk> hsivonen: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23940
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  296. # [14:27] <zcorpan> it seems meta refresh doesn't work in firefox if it's inserted by a script
  297. # [14:27] <zcorpan> is that intentional? i think the spec says it should work
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  299. # [14:29] <zcorpan> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/2667
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  313. # [15:27] <MikeSmith> "User agents are encouraged to expose parse errors somehow."
  314. # [15:29] <jgraham> We choose to expose them by encoding them in the initial state of the universe
  315. # [15:29] <Ms2ger> That's why we hired jgraham, in fact
  316. # [15:32] <MikeSmith> I encourage annevk to somehow work the phrase "with extreme prejudice" into his next specification
  317. # [15:32] <zcorpan> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/2668 - does the close() cause 'load' to be fired?
  318. # [15:33] <zcorpan> write() implies open() which mutes the iframe's load event that was going to be fired because the browsing context came into being
  319. # [15:33] <jgraham> zcorpan: Yes
  320. # [15:36] <jgraham> zcorpan: Where is the stuff about document.open muting load events?\
  321. # [15:39] <zcorpan> jgraham: i thought it was step 20 but i see now that only applies while handling a load event
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  323. # [15:40] <gsnedders> hsivonen: I suppose if you're used to the only way of getting stuff rendered is custom fonts, the obvious next step is @font-face, not looking for alternate ways (like re-encoding stuff).
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  325. # [15:40] <jgraham> zcorpan: Yeah, that's to stop you getting more than one load event
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  327. # [15:41] <zcorpan> jgraham: but in my case the flag is false so i think the spec says two load events should be fired
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  329. # [15:42] <zcorpan> "When an iframe element is inserted into a document, the user agent must create a nested browsing context, and then process the iframe attributes for the "first time"." #the-iframe-element
  330. # [15:43] <zcorpan> which will "Queue a task to run the iframe load event steps."
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  336. # [15:48] <jgraham> zcorpan: So this is the question of how the initial about:blank document loads, right?
  337. # [15:49] <zcorpan> jgraham: not quite
  338. # [15:49] <zcorpan> i'll file a bug
  339. # [15:49] <jgraham> Well nearly
  340. # [15:50] <jgraham> If the initial about:blank was loaded synchronously, you wouldn't see that event
  341. # [15:52] <zcorpan> why not?
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  345. # [16:05] <jgraham> I thought that where the load was synchronous the event was too
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  347. # [16:06] <jgraham> But maybe I am misremembering this stuff
  348. # [16:06] <zcorpan> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23942
  349. # [16:10] <zcorpan> hmm, stop parsing fires load on the window, not on the iframe
  350. # [16:14] <Ms2ger> Sounds like someone is writing tests ;)
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  354. # [16:28] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: as in "implementations MUST NOT support UTF-32, with extreme prejudice"?
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  398. # [18:14] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: that sounds sensible
  399. # [18:22] <MikeSmith> speaking of sensible, best combination of sentences found in my inbox so far today: "I see two possibilities to improve the specification. First the syntax should be defined in an EBNF."
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  402. # [18:26] <jgraham> MikeSmith: That makes sense. Assuming that the real problem with whatever specification this is is that the editor is full of crazy and someone is looking for a way to say "look at the counterproductive things s?he is spending h[er|is] time on, we should remove them"
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  405. # [18:31] <MikeSmith> jgraham: I can see you've played knifey spoony before
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  507. # Session Close: Sat Nov 30 00:00:00 2013

The end :)