/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2013-12-03 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue Dec 03 00:00:00 2013
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  5. # [00:02] <tantek> Hixie - you mean you're not able to pre-occupy them by asking them to research and document existing publishing practices that demonstrate the need? ;)
  6. # [00:02] <tantek> (existing publishing practices on *others* websites - helps demonstrate that some *other* people *might* care about it)
  7. # [00:03] <tantek> as opposed to every armchair tag proposer
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  11. # [00:09] <Hixie> tantek: i'm not able to determine if there's people who want the feature or not, because they aren't aware of the bug and therefore haven't commented on it in the first place
  12. # [00:10] <Hixie> tantek: i'm oddly in the opposite problem than the one we usually find ourselves in -- not enough people saying they want something :-)
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  16. # [00:14] <tantek> Hixie - that's a fine situation to just let time accrue interest if there is any. Such things can be left in limbo until there's demand.
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  18. # [00:15] <Hixie> tantek: my problem is that i don't know if there's demand, because i don't know where the people who want these features are saying so
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  21. # [00:17] <tantek> Hixie - sure - hopefully if such people exist they are searching for such a feature, and if you've documented the ideas/thoughts on the feature so far somewhere search discoverable, hopefully they'll find it.
  22. # [00:18] <tantek> praise be upon web search to see all, know all, find all, solve all. ;)
  23. # [00:18] <Hixie> tantek: i don't think bugzilla is searchable from google
  24. # [00:18] <tantek> well then that would be a problem
  25. # [00:18] <Hixie> tantek: also, it's also possible that the people who want this feature are finding it in some other inferior solution
  26. # [00:19] <Hixie> tantek: e.g. suppose someone wanted something from microformats, but found rdfa could do it in a pinch, and so stopped looking for how to do it in microfarmats
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  29. # [00:21] <tantek> Hixie - that would be fine - if there really was sufficient such interest in such a "something" then eventually we'd see publishing patterns emerge of that kind of RDFa which we could use as data to develop a cleaner/simpler way to do it with microformats, document a transition, and go.
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  31. # [00:21] <Hixie> would be nice to hear about it earlier on though
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  33. # [00:22] <tantek> it's ok, we can accept the web as highly organically evolving and somewhat inefficient
  34. # [00:22] <tantek> the really important stuff will bubble up to the top
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  36. # [00:22] <Hixie> i would like it to be more efficient :-)
  37. # [00:23] <Hixie> or at least, i'd like to know which of these many features are stuff nobody cares about, and which are things that lots of people are bitching about but i haven't heard enough complaints to know
  38. # [00:23] <tantek> me too. hence I ask people to post things places where Google and other search engines will pick them up, index them, and make them easily findable.
  39. # [00:23] <tantek> in my experience, amount of bitching does not actually related to utility / usefulness
  40. # [00:24] <tantek> and the good thing is, we can encourage people to "bitch" (I prefer brainstorm ;) ) on their on blogs
  41. # [00:24] <tantek> *own blogs
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  97. # [01:43] <Hixie> jamesr__: did you ever reply to http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-whatwg-archive/2013Oct/0013.html by any chance?
  98. # [01:48] <TabAtkins> Hixie: s/textArea/textContent/
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  105. # [02:16] <jamesr__> Hixie: i did not. in order to reply i'd have to figure out whether there are any observable differences between my proposed text and the spin the event loop algorithm
  106. # [02:16] <jamesr__> mentally it's a lot easier for me to map the steps of "spin the event loop" on to the actual C++ act of putting an object on the stack that spins the event loop, but that's not how the text really works
  107. # [02:16] <Hixie> TabAtkins: context?
  108. # [02:16] <TabAtkins> The most recent email you sent, about <output>
  109. # [02:16] <Hixie> ah, my bad
  110. # [02:17] <Hixie> oh well
  111. # [02:17] <Hixie> hopefully he figures out what i mean
  112. # [02:17] <Hixie> jamesr__: k
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  114. # [02:17] <Hixie> jamesr__: not really sure how it differs, but ok
  115. # [02:17] <Hixie> jamesr__: :-)
  116. # [02:17] <jamesr__> Hixie: if it doesn't, then i'd suggest replacing it with my text just for the purpose of removing invociations of that step
  117. # [02:17] <jamesr__> since that step makes the spec incredibly hard to reason about
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  119. # [02:18] <Hixie> jamesr__: i don't understand your text :-)
  120. # [02:18] <jamesr__> ok. well i don't think i fully understand the currently spec algorithm
  121. # [02:18] <Hixie> jamesr__: as far as i can tell, it's the same as what the spec says, but using non-spec terms :-)
  122. # [02:18] <jamesr__> window.showModalDialog() does something that i can map to the C++ callstack
  123. # [02:18] <jamesr__> and as an implementor that's relatively easy to reason about
  124. # [02:19] <jamesr__> this parsing step does not map to reentrancy in the C++ callstack
  125. # [02:19] <Hixie> jamesr__: "spin the event loop" right now means "suspend the current algorithm, end the task, and, later, queue up a new task that resumes the current algorithm"
  126. # [02:19] <jamesr__> so it's a lot harder at least for me to reason about what it really does
  127. # [02:19] <jamesr__> yeah but there are consequences about what's higher up on the stack
  128. # [02:19] <jamesr__> or equivalently what the consequences of "suspend the current algorithm" are
  129. # [02:19] <Hixie> what are the consequences?
  130. # [02:20] <jamesr__> i don't believe any major browser today supports continuations for javascript, so "suspend the current algorithm" if the algorithm has javascript on the stack means run a bunch of code on top of that callstack
  131. # [02:20] <jamesr__> instead of returning to the underlying native event loop
  132. # [02:20] <Hixie> i thought you were proposing that instead of spinning the event loop, we suspend the current algorithm, end the task, and later, queue up a new task that resumes the same algorithm. which seems to me identical.
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  134. # [02:22] <Hixie> jamesr__: your e-mail didn't suggest a change to showModalDialog() as far as i can tell
  135. # [02:26] <jamesr__> no
  136. # [02:26] <jamesr__> that was an example
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  138. # [02:26] <jamesr__> the parser case doesn't have the issues that showModalDialog() has of JS higher up the stack
  139. # [02:27] <jamesr__> but it's not obvious from reading the parser text that those issues are not a problem here
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  172. # [03:20] <Hixie> jamesr__: k. i don't understand the exact issue then.
  173. # [03:20] <Hixie> jamesr__: please respond in due course so i can study your answer and fix the spec if necessary :-)
  174. # [03:20] <Hixie> jamesr__: (or ping me sometime around 11 and we can chat over lunch or whatever)
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  211. # [05:08] <Domenic_> annevk: Firefox promises in Aurora are not doing so hot, 84/879 tests pass. http://domenic.me/aplus-tests-against-the-browser/
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  237. # [07:15] <rniwa> annevk: yt?
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  264. # [08:51] <MikeSmith> Domenic_: seems like those are not doing so great in Chromium either -- 94 passes, 778 failures
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  266. # [08:51] <MikeSmith> unless there's some flag I should have set but don7t
  267. # [08:52] <MikeSmith> hmm I get different results when I re-run it
  268. # [08:53] <MikeSmith> in Chromium, 223 passes, 649 failuress
  269. # [08:53] <MikeSmith> with duration: 8.27s
  270. # [08:54] <MikeSmith> takes way longer for the tests to execute in Firefox Nightly
  271. # [08:55] <MikeSmith> duration: 129.66s
  272. # [08:55] <MikeSmith> passes: 237
  273. # [08:55] <MikeSmith> failures: 620
  274. # [08:55] <MikeSmith> but only runs 98% of the tests
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  296. # [10:05] <Ms2ger> jgraham, can I use commit --amend with critic?
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  303. # [10:13] <MikeSmith> jgraham: I notice that critic seems to send some messages without an address in the From header (only a GH username). Seems like it would be nicer if it always put some address for From , even if it's just some dummy default
  304. # [10:13] <reggna> Ms2ger: You can, if you prepare critic for a rebase, and critic will create a "merge commit".
  305. # [10:14] <reggna> Ms2ger: But it's probably easier to just commit a fixup and do the rebase later.
  306. # [10:15] <MikeSmith> also wonder why it sends messages base64-encoded (not that it bothers me -- just curious)
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  312. # [10:50] <zcorpan> hmm. test(func, title, {help:foo}) should be able to take an array of urls
  313. # [10:51] <zcorpan> darobin: did you invent {help:foo} in testharness.js? is it being used? does something break if i use an array?
  314. # [10:52] <darobin> zcorpan: that doesn't look like something I'd have invented
  315. # [10:52] <darobin> is this the metadata you can add?
  316. # [10:52] <darobin> that's plinss
  317. # [10:52] <zcorpan> oh, ok
  318. # [10:52] <darobin> I am not sure what uses the data
  319. # [10:53] <darobin> I would say try using an array and if someone complains you'll have your answer :)
  320. # [10:53] <zcorpan> i'll just use an array and update the documentation saying that it takes a string or an array of strings
  321. # [10:53] <darobin> yeah that works too
  322. # [10:55] * Ms2ger dislikes that argument
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  325. # [11:06] <hsivonen> interesting that Greece and Japan appeared to have opted not to get a Punycode TLD
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  328. # [11:14] <odinho> zcorpan: You even want multiple help urls on a single test? :|
  329. # [11:15] <odinho> Crazy :D
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  334. # [11:20] <hsivonen> annevk: so the gbk decoder checks the gb18030 flag only in one step. What's hard about determining if that step could always run as if the gb18030 flag was set (unifying the two encodings)?
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  345. # [11:58] <jgraham> Ms2ger: No
  346. # [11:58] <Ms2ger> So it seems
  347. # [11:59] <jgraham> Ms2ger: It's effectively an in-place rebase
  348. # [12:00] <jgraham> Which it *does* support, but you have to tell it that you are going to do one in advance
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  352. # [12:00] <jgraham> (in the normal setup)
  353. # [12:00] <annevk> hsivonen: the open bugs suggest there might be more differences :/
  354. # [12:00] <annevk> rniwa: now...
  355. # [12:00] <jgraham> In the GH setup it would have to infer this from the GH API provided data
  356. # [12:00] <annevk> Domenic_: that's great, thanks!
  357. # [12:01] <Ms2ger> jgraham, I think I did tell it
  358. # [12:02] <jgraham> Ms2ger: I think you probably didn't, because the prepare rebase button, which is normally what you use here, doesn't work when you are tracking a branch, AIUI
  359. # [12:02] <jgraham> (which you always are in the GH setup)
  360. # [12:02] <jgraham> That button just shouldn't be visible in this case
  361. # [12:02] <Ms2ger> Fun
  362. # [12:03] <jgraham> Ms2ger: Yeah. I really have to put some more work in to critic
  363. # [12:03] <jgraham> But there is a rumor that I might get internet at home soon
  364. # [12:03] <Ms2ger> Well, I learned something today :)
  365. # [12:03] <jgraham> So then it is actually plausible that I will
  366. # [12:04] <Ms2ger> Does that mean you spend a lot of time in the office instead?
  367. # [12:06] <jgraham> It means I spend a lot of time wishing I had a proper internet connection, and some more time wishing that we weren't also in a cell phone dead spot where 2 bars of signal is the maximum we have observed
  368. # [12:06] <Ms2ger> I see
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  372. # [12:41] <zcorpan> odinho: sure. it's not uncommon to test multiple things together
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  377. # [13:21] <odinho> zcorpan: Yeah, -- I had several help urls back when we used <meta> and one test per file. That's how the real world (tm) is.
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  398. # [14:25] <jgraham> In the real world no one actually writes all that metadat
  399. # [14:25] <jgraham> a
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  423. # [15:19] <annevk> hsivonen: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23971
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  431. # [15:32] <darobin> annevk: has there been any further discussion about the idea of having a sort of web platform conference thingie?
  432. # [15:32] <Ms2ger> Don't think so
  433. # [15:33] <darobin> I ask because I could get some logistical support from W3C to organise something
  434. # [15:33] <darobin> with a very open ended mission in terms of how it's run, etc.
  435. # [15:33] <smaug____> could we kill xslt, pretty please
  436. # [15:34] <darobin> smaug____: try v3, it adds something like JSON support :)
  437. # [15:34] <smaug____> seriously?
  438. # [15:36] <Ms2ger> smaug____, then you could remove peterv's only remaining contribution ;)
  439. # [15:36] <odinho> jgraham: lol, true.
  440. # [15:37] <smaug____> Ms2ger: I would count webidl bindings reasonable major contribution
  441. # [15:37] <darobin> smaug____: http://www.w3.org/TR/xslt-30/#json with love
  442. # [15:38] <darobin> the example almost makes me like Handlebars
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  444. # [15:48] <annevk> darobin: so yeah, all I got is it has to be about social interaction, barcamp, loosely organized, for framework authors, complex apps, browser developers, and standards peeps
  445. # [15:48] <darobin> that sounds pretty much like what I wrote down :)
  446. # [15:49] <annevk> darobin: with focus on getting to know each other, talking through problems and annoyances
  447. # [15:49] <annevk> cool
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  451. # [15:54] <Ms2ger> darobin, *I* never wrote such a library :)
  452. # [15:55] <darobin> Ms2ger: not even in Python?
  453. # [15:55] <Ms2ger> I doubt it
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  455. # [15:56] <darobin> Ms2ger: so... you use the DOM? :)
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  457. # [15:58] * jgraham wonders what kind of library Ms2ger never wrote
  458. # [15:58] <jgraham> I feel like I am missing something obvious here
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  460. # [15:58] <Ms2ger> darobin, right
  461. # [15:58] <Ms2ger> jgraham, "We've all written small libraries of the kind that Ian was describing, probably several times over."
  462. # [15:58] <jgraham> Oh, context is email
  463. # [15:59] <MikeSmith> q?
  464. # [15:59] <jgraham> darobin: Pretty sure that you bake things in, not boil things in
  465. # [15:59] <darobin> Ms2ger: well I guess we all have some of those kinky, painful things we enjoy
  466. # [15:59] <jgraham> Boiling is what you do to oceans
  467. # [15:59] <darobin> jgraham: my point exactly
  468. # [16:00] <Ms2ger> q+ MikeSmith
  469. # [16:00] <Ms2ger> annevk, http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker?from=8324&to=8325 is empty
  470. # [16:00] <hsivonen> darobin: wow. that XSLT JSON thing was one of those things that confuse joke-or-serious detection without the spec link
  471. # [16:01] <Ms2ger> hsivonen, even with the spec link...
  472. # [16:01] <annevk> Ms2ger: le sigh
  473. # [16:01] <darobin> hsivonen: you clearly haven't been to an XML conference in a while — all they talk about is JSON these days :)
  474. # [16:01] <annevk> The spec link fact sounds sad
  475. # [16:02] <darobin> hsivonen: that said, JSON support makes a lot of sense for XQuery — I guess it just got into XSLT that way
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  477. # [16:03] <annevk> Ms2ger: "fixed"
  478. # [16:03] <Ms2ger> Ta
  479. # [16:03] <hsivonen> darobin: how is JSONx (not a joke apparently!) doing at XML conferences?
  480. # [16:04] <annevk> Ms2ger: should really say "Ta" since this is going to happen again soonish at the rate things are going now
  481. # [16:04] <darobin> hsivonen: I can't say I have my ear that close to the ground, but I haven't heard about that at all in those circles
  482. # [16:04] <hsivonen> darobin: I guess that's a good sign
  483. # [16:04] <darobin> hsivonen: processing JSON with XML tools started coming up a few years ago; most people recommend the "Snelson Mapping"
  484. # [16:05] <darobin> I doubt anyone needs any kind of standard for that, especially not given support in XQuery/XSLT...
  485. # [16:05] <darobin> the MarkLogic people have been supporting JSON forever, you can use it as a JSON DB
  486. # [16:05] <darobin> I think they use Snelson internally
  487. # [16:06] <darobin> the one thing from that world which I would dearly like is http://jsoniq.org/ for JSON DBs
  488. # [16:06] <darobin> (and is possible over IndexedDB)
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  494. # [16:32] <jgraham> https://critic.hoppipolla.co.uk/r/368 has been stuck for weeks :(
  495. # [16:34] <Ms2ger> Since Monday last week ;)
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  497. # [16:36] <jgraham> In unrelated news, it seems polyglot is the HTMLWG equivalent of a comedy callback. It's carefully timed so that just when everyone has forgotten it, it's brought out again for another laugh
  498. # [16:36] <odinho> lol
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  502. # [16:50] <Lachy_> jgraham, what recent discussion has there been on polyglot? I don't see any on public-html
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  506. # [16:54] <jgraham> "Preference Survey: Polyglot Note vs Recommendation Track"
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  522. # [17:09] <Lachy> jgraham, I can't find any mail with that subject on any W3C list.
  523. # [17:09] <Ms2ger`> It's on the whatwg list
  524. # [17:09] * Ms2ger` ducks
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  526. # [17:10] <Lachy> :-)
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  530. # [17:11] <MikeSmith> hey it's Lachy
  531. # [17:11] <Lachy> Hi Mike
  532. # [17:12] <MikeSmith> howdy
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  704. # [23:05] <Hixie> is there work ongoing into server-push notifications for web apps that aren't open?
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  714. # [23:15] <Hixie> GPHemsley: any chance we can make the big warnings at the top of http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/FAQ get hidden for that page?
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  734. # [23:50] <hober> Hixie: I don't think I understand the question
  735. # [23:51] <Hixie> re server-push notifications?
  736. # [23:51] <hober> yeah
  737. # [23:52] <Hixie> well like on android you can receive a text message notification even if your text message app isn't running, because the cloud can push a notification to your device
  738. # [23:52] <Hixie> do we have anything similar but for web apps in the works?
  739. # [23:53] <hober> like https://developer.apple.com/notifications/safari-push-notifications/ ?
  740. # [23:54] <Hixie> yeah, but not a proprietary thing :-)
  741. # [23:54] <hober> istm a "push api" being worked on in the webapps wg
  742. # [23:55] <hober> but I don't know if that's related offhand
  743. # [23:55] <Hixie> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/push/raw-file/tip/index.html ?
  744. # [23:55] <Hixie> seems like what i'm looking for!
  745. # [23:55] <Hixie> thanks!
  746. # [23:56] <hober> np
  747. # Session Close: Wed Dec 04 00:00:00 2013

The end :)