/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2013-12-05 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Dec 05 00:00:00 2013
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  26. # [00:46] <Hixie> dglazkov: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2013JulSep/0454.html is hard to read because of all the cuteness :-/
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  32. # [01:02] <dglazkov> Hixie: your argument is invalid
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  125. # [05:24] <rniwa> Hixie: yt?
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  128. # [05:41] <Hixie> yo
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  131. # [05:46] <MikeSmith> rniwa: 上
  132. # [05:46] <rniwa> MikeSmith: thanks
  133. # [05:46] <rniwa> Hixie: hi
  134. # [05:46] <rniwa> Hixie: so i was reading your spec change
  135. # [05:47] <rniwa> Hixie: for form element
  136. # [05:47] <rniwa> Hixie: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#has-an-element-in-scope
  137. # [05:47] <rniwa> Hixie: doesn't seem to list the form element
  138. # [05:48] <Hixie> right?
  139. # [05:48] <Hixie> why would it?
  140. # [05:48] <rniwa> Hixie: your change in http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker?from=8330&to=8331
  141. # [05:48] <rniwa> Hixie: refers to "If the stack of open elements does not have a form element in scope, then this is a parse error; abort these steps and ignore the token."
  142. # [05:49] <Hixie> right?
  143. # [05:49] <Hixie> i'm confused
  144. # [05:49] <rniwa> Hixie: what does "have a form element in scope" in this context mean?
  145. # [05:49] <rniwa> Hixie: does it mean that the local name "form" is in the scope?
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  147. # [05:50] <Hixie> there's an algorithm
  148. # [05:50] <Hixie> i don't understand what's confusing here
  149. # [05:50] <Hixie> is there a specific step that's confusing?
  150. # [05:50] <Hixie> or?
  151. # [05:51] <rniwa> Hixie: my question is just about whether we should be checking the namespace of form element or not
  152. # [05:51] <rniwa> Hixie: when we're checking whether form element is in the scope or not
  153. # [05:51] <rniwa> Hixie: because the code we have in webkit currently doesn't check the namespace
  154. # [05:51] <Hixie> you check if it's an HTML <form> element, yes, like for all the other "have a ... element in scope" cases that reference specific elements from specific namespaces
  155. # [05:52] <rniwa> Hixie: oh nvm
  156. # [05:52] <rniwa> Hixie: I misread the code :(
  157. # [05:52] <Hixie> phew
  158. # [05:52] <rniwa> Hixie: the stack thing only contains html element
  159. # [05:52] <rniwa> Hixie: sorry about the confusion
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  168. # [06:01] * rniwa is making the parser change in webkit
  169. # [06:02] <Hixie> nice
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  201. # [07:32] <marcosc> Hixie: yesterday you said that you didn't understand what problem I was trying to solve. Can you explain let me know what part of the proposal you don't understand? Maybe I can explain it better.
  202. # [07:33] <marcosc> or is it more about why are people not using what HTML already provides to achieve the use case?
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  285. # [10:51] <Ms2ger> rniwa: yeah, the "have a form element in scope" bits are really confusing
  286. # [10:52] <Ms2ger> I tried to convince Hixie to make it clearer, but he didn't want to
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  298. # [11:23] <marcosc> you know it's serious if Ms2ger cc's himself on it
  299. # [11:24] <marcosc> :)
  300. # [11:24] <Ms2ger> Yay, exceptions
  301. # [11:24] <Ms2ger> I'd make heycam|away take over speccing them, but you probably want it fixed this century :)
  302. # [11:24] <zcorpan> should we just ignore isindex in templates?
  303. # [11:24] * marcosc imagines Ms2ger's thought process "Yeah... this aught to be amusing enough... I'll cc myself"
  304. # [11:25] <marcosc> Ms2ger: given that Im in Australia... I could just hop down to Melb and bug him to fix stuff
  305. # [11:26] <Ms2ger> Do it :)
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  316. # [12:05] <Ms2ger> jgraham, so even though I broke critic with https://critic.hoppipolla.co.uk/r/449, want to merge? :)
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  318. # [12:20] <jgraham> Ms2ger: I don't like the extra newline in object literals :p
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  320. # [12:20] <jgraham> foo = {a:b
  321. # [12:20] <jgraham> }
  322. # [12:21] <jgraham> Rather than
  323. # [12:21] <jgraham> foo = {a:b}
  324. # [12:21] <jgraham> (or at least multiline object literals)
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  326. # [12:23] <Ms2ger> You mean
  327. # [12:23] <Ms2ger> {
  328. # [12:23] <Ms2ger> a:b
  329. # [12:23] <Ms2ger> }
  330. # [12:23] <Ms2ger> Instead of
  331. # [12:23] <Ms2ger> {a:b,
  332. # [12:23] <Ms2ger> c:d}?
  333. # [12:23] <jgraham> Something like that
  334. # [12:24] <Ms2ger> I think the first is more readable
  335. # [12:24] <jgraham> Well
  336. # [12:24] <jgraham> I'm not going to fight about it
  337. # [12:24] <jgraham> But you are wrong ;)
  338. # [12:26] <jgraham> I mean I think it's more readable in the way that extra whitespace normally is: it is locally more readable, but reduces the code density which can hurt global readability, and makes formatting more of a pain
  339. # [12:26] <Ms2ger> :D
  340. # [12:27] <jgraham> Would be nice if gh didn't make this impossible to review :(
  341. # [12:27] <Ms2ger> Given the number of lines I'm removing, I think the few lines I'm adding there are fine :)
  342. # [12:27] <jgraham> I guess I just have to trust you
  343. # [12:28] <Ms2ger> I think it should be fine
  344. # [12:28] <Ms2ger> But I'd think that :)
  345. # [12:28] <Ms2ger> Anyway, heading off
  346. # [12:29] <jgraham> Merged
  347. # [12:29] <jgraham> thanks
  348. # [12:32] <Ms2ger> Thank you
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  377. # [13:43] <hsivonen> annevk-cloud: wow. so one character difference prevents ISO-8859-8-I from being a label of windows-1255? sad.
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  379. # [13:45] <gsnedders> hsivonen: So I'm going to try and do something when it comes to dealing with unlabelled content over xmas/New Year. No promise I'll get very far. Also limit as to how much I'm willing to spend on cluster time. :)
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  382. # [13:50] <hsivonen> gsnedders: cool
  383. # [13:51] <gsnedders> hsivonen: Any opinions on ways to try and detect? TLD-level defaults and byte bi-grams of the first 1024 bytes?
  384. # [13:55] <hsivonen> gsnedders: I was thinking of producing reasonable-sized lists of URLs for unlabeled pages and eyeballing the pages to be sure
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  386. # [13:55] <hsivonen> gsnedders: otherwise, you have to develop *reliable* bigram data first
  387. # [13:55] <gsnedders> hsivonen: So I think that's probably doable.
  388. # [13:55] <hsivonen> the delta between Windows-1253 and ISO-8859-7 is frustratingly small, too
  389. # [13:56] <hsivonen> and explains how Firefox and Chrome get away with falling back to ISO-8859-7 when IE falls back to windows-1253
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  394. # Session Close: Thu Dec 05 14:07:39 2013
  395. #
  396. # Session Start: Thu Dec 05 14:07:39 2013
  397. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  398. # [14:07] * Disconnected
  399. # [14:08] * Attempting to rejoin channel #whatwg
  400. # [14:08] * Rejoined channel #whatwg
  401. # [14:08] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ & http://logbot.glob.com.au/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  402. # [14:08] * Set by smaug____!~chatzilla@GGZYYCCCXVIII.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi on Wed Mar 21 17:14:24
  403. # [14:10] <hsivonen> gsnedders: oh you want to standardize bigram guessing? I thought you wanted to do research for TLD-based guessing.
  404. # [14:10] <gsnedders> hsivonen: Ideally, yes.
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  406. # [14:10] <gsnedders> hsivonen: Because it avoids TLD-dependence, which doesn't like. Also worthwhile investigating TLD-based guessing, too.
  407. # [14:10] <gsnedders> hsivonen: And possibly a combination of the two.
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  410. # [14:12] <hsivonen> research and data don't hurt, but I'm negatively predisposed towards the idea of guessing between multiple single-byte encodings
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  412. # [14:12] <hsivonen> since it's not exact like validating the byte sequences of multi-byte encodings
  413. # [14:12] <gsnedders> hsivonen: I don't think we can avoid it, tbh.
  414. # [14:13] <gsnedders> hsivonen: I think there's too much content under .com and the like to avoid having to.
  415. # [14:13] <hsivonen> gsnedders: oh you want to make .com not subject to localization-based guessing
  416. # [14:14] <gsnedders> hsivonen: Yeah.
  417. # [14:14] <gsnedders> hsivonen: I want to totally get rid of locale-based guessing.
  418. # [14:14] <hsivonen> gsnedders: I'm pretty worried about introducing even a small number of misguesses to .com sites that require windows-1252 and that now work fine in windows-1252-affiliated localizations
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  420. # [14:16] <gsnedders> hsivonen: We could potentially add some code to do the guessing to Gecko, but not use it, and just send telemetry on whether it agrees.
  421. # [14:16] <gsnedders> hsivonen: I think we may well have to have per-TLD bigram feature vectors, but I dunno. Need data.
  422. # [14:17] <hsivonen> gsnedders: potentially, but we can't collect URLs that way due to privacy. So there'd be no way of understanding *what* broke.
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  424. # [14:18] <gsnedders> hsivonen: Indeed, but it would at least allow us to get some data on accuracy (esp. relative to times when people then manually override the encoding, whether it returns the same as that).
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  426. # [14:21] <gsnedders> hsivonen: Besides, we should have some sort of data of detected-identically-to-expensive-detection v. detected-incorrectly once we have some hard data.
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  444. # [14:49] * Ms2ger is rather confused by Björn
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  448. # [14:51] * jgraham is rather confused
  449. # [14:53] <Ms2ger> In general?
  450. # [14:53] <jgraham> Yes
  451. # [14:53] <Ms2ger> Or by the relative sanity of people who use hg?
  452. # [14:54] <jgraham> Björn is merely behaving consistently with the theory that he is not an individual, but a shady cult-like entity
  453. # [14:54] <jgraham> Pretty sure that hg never caused sanity
  454. # [14:54] <jgraham> See also: hatters
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  457. # [14:55] <Ms2ger> That's a reference I missed
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  459. # [14:56] <jgraham> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mad_as_a_hatter
  460. # [14:59] <Ms2ger> I see
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  475. # [15:29] <hsivonen> annevk-cloud: is there a Blink bug analogous to https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=125225 ?
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  520. # [16:58] <Hixie> marcosc: i couldn't find mention of a use case. i'm not saying it's bad, i just don't know what the use case is. maybe i missed it?
  521. # [16:58] <Hixie> Ms2ger: it's not that i didn't want to make it clearer, it's that i don't understand what's unclear
  522. # [17:00] <Ms2ger> Right
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  550. # [17:49] <Hixie> ms (i would love nothing more than to make it clearer...)
  551. # [17:49] <Hixie> er, s/ms/ms2ger:/
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  589. # [19:30] <SimonSapin> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/commands.html#anchor-points what is the alignment point?
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  603. # [20:01] <Hixie> SimonSapin: you mean where is it defined?
  604. # [20:01] <Hixie> SimonSapin: or what?
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  606. # [20:09] <SimonSapin> Hixie: this property defines the alignment point for an element, but I don’t know what kind of alignment this is about
  607. # [20:09] <Hixie> it's for <dialog>, read the previous section :-)
  608. # [20:09] <Hixie> (that's why it's a subsection of <dialog>)
  609. # [20:09] <SimonSapin> Ok. (I got a deep link to that and was missing some context.)
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  611. # [20:13] <SimonSapin> Hixie: perhaps s/alignment point/anchor point/g in the last two paragraphs?
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  615. # [20:22] <rniwa> aklein: yt?
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  620. # [20:31] <Hixie> SimonSapin: possibly. can you file a bug? http://whatwg.org/newbug -- i'm on my way out the door or i'd do it myself. thanks!
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  622. # [20:31] <SimonSapin> Hixie: will do
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  631. # [21:05] <aklein> rniwa: now I am
  632. # [21:05] <rniwa> aklein: hi
  633. # [21:05] <rniwa> aklein: are you happy with https://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=326058?
  634. # [21:05] <rniwa> aklein: or http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker?from=8330&to=8331
  635. # [21:06] <rniwa> sicking: hi sicking!
  636. # [21:07] <aklein> rniwa: Hixie's response in email seemed reasonable to me, I haven't had a chance to look at the spec edit yet...
  637. # [21:07] <rniwa> aklein: okay.
  638. # [21:07] <rniwa> aklein: basically, it made form element pointer moot inside template elements
  639. # [21:08] <rniwa> aklein: so that we now allow nested form elements inside template
  640. # [21:08] <rniwa> aklein: form controls are still associated with the closest form ancestor though
  641. # [21:10] <aklein> rniwa: so previously, we weren't associating elements inside templates with forms outside
  642. # [21:10] <aklein> is the change just that <form><template><form> results in a <form> inside the template?
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  644. # [21:14] <rniwa> aklein: no, the problem was that previously we were having form element pointer being not null even if we entered a template element
  645. # [21:14] <rniwa> aklein: so if we had <form><template><form>
  646. # [21:14] <rniwa> aklein: then we'll rip off the inner form
  647. # [21:14] <rniwa> aklein: because it's a nested form element
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  649. # [21:15] <rniwa> aklein: if we had <isindex>, we won't generate a new form element as long as there is an outer form element even if it was outside the template element
  650. # [21:15] <rniwa> aklein: e.g. <form><template><isindex>
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  652. # [21:18] <aklein> I think we're saying the same thing, you're just saying it more precisely :)
  653. # [21:19] <aklein> so yes, I think we're fine with that change
  654. # [21:19] <aklein> it is a _little_ weird that you can put <form><form> inside a template, but I don't expect it to cause any trouble
  655. # [21:24] * heycam|away is now known as heycam
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  659. # [21:30] <Ms2ger> Is it just me, or does https://twitter.com/OperaLunchMenu suggest you don't get to eat a lot at Opera?
  660. # [21:31] <gsnedders> Ms2ger: In what way? Lack of options?
  661. # [21:32] <Ms2ger> In the sense that "Monday - Tomato soup" doesn't sound like a full meal to me :)
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  663. # [21:34] <gsnedders> Well, it's based on what's published on the intranet, AFAIK, which doesn't always reflect what actually appears in the canteen. And there's quite often more options (though typically similar dishes) than it gives. And at least here soup and bread isn't that unusual as a meal. Even if I'd complain it's too small. :)
  664. # [21:35] <gsnedders> There again, speaking to someone who often has four meals a day probably isn't a good judge of what "too small" means :)
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  684. # [22:18] <Ms2ger> Looks like hypermail doesn't like IDN: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2013Dec/
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  692. # [22:37] <Domenic_> <isindex>: the gift that keeps on giving.
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  698. # [23:02] <Hixie> SimonSapin: thanks for the bug
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  700. # [23:03] <Hixie> aklein: you know you've spent too much time with the html parser when you think the weird behaviour is that <form><form> works, not that <form><form> ignores the second <form> :-P
  701. # [23:06] <zcorpan> i think it's a bit weird that it works differently inside <template>
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  703. # [23:08] <Hixie> it's weird that it works differently _outside_ template :-P
  704. # [23:08] <Hixie> (but yes, i agree)
  705. # [23:08] <Hixie> (lots is weird about html parsing :-( )
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  712. # [23:16] <a-ja> Hixie: fyi, dholbert just landed multi-line flex on moz inbound...along with last of the shortcuts, best i can tell
  713. # [23:17] <Hixie> last of the shortcuts?
  714. # [23:18] <a-ja> flex has some shortcut properties
  715. # [23:18] <Hixie> oh, right
  716. # [23:18] <Hixie> cool
  717. # [23:19] <Hixie> i really should learn flex one of these days
  718. # [23:19] <Hixie> i worked on a far ancestor of it back in the day, and when i handed that off i kind of shut off that part of my brain
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  747. # Session Close: Fri Dec 06 00:00:00 2013

The end :)