/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2014-01-04 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sat Jan 04 00:00:00 2014
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] <Hixie_> so... where are Map and Set defined. ho dee hum.
  4. # [00:03] <Hixie_> what does " Subclass constructors that intend to inherit the specified Map behaviour must include a super call to Map." mean, in practice?
  5. # [00:03] <Hixie_> is that a real conformance criteria of some sort?
  6. # [00:03] <Domenic_> that if you do class X extends Map { constructor() { blah blah } }
  7. # [00:03] <Hixie_> (http://people.mozilla.org/~jorendorff/es6-draft.html#sec-map-constructor)
  8. # [00:03] <Domenic_> but blah blah doesn't include super()
  9. # [00:03] <Domenic_> then none of your methods will work right
  10. # [00:03] <Hixie_> so it's just a statement of fact, not a conformance criteria?
  11. # [00:04] <Domenic_> Yeah
  12. # [00:04] <Hixie_> i guess the JS spec doesn't mention RFC2119
  13. # [00:04] <Domenic_> Huh yeah
  14. # [00:04] <Domenic_> Never noticed that
  15. # [00:04] <Hixie_> that's... confusing. but ok.
  16. # [00:05] <Hixie_> ah, i see.
  17. # [00:05] * Hixie_ reads the conformance section
  18. # [00:05] <Hixie_> it's a CSS style spec. "conforming implementations do what the spec says"
  19. # [00:05] * jorendorff_away is now known as jorendorff
  20. # [00:05] <Hixie_> ok
  21. # [00:05] * Quits: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@109.133.52.179) (Quit: nn)
  22. # [00:05] <jgraham> Google is right about sof btw
  23. # [00:06] <Hixie_> thanks
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  28. # [00:20] <Hixie_> lordy, the js spec's definition of Map is non-trivial to grok
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  33. # [00:28] <odinho> sof is awesome
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  36. # [00:29] <TabAtkins> Hixie_: Yeah, it is. What are you trying to grok?
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  38. # [00:32] <Hixie_> TabAtkins: how to write teh structured clone spec for them. i think i have it, though.
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  40. # [00:45] <Hixie_> ok, here's a question
  41. # [00:45] <Hixie_> are the keys in a Map own properties of the Map?
  42. # [00:46] <Domenic_> no
  43. # [00:46] <Domenic_> because they can be objects
  44. # [00:46] <Domenic_> they are not properties at all
  45. # [00:46] <Domenic_> they are stored in the internal [[MapData]]
  46. # [00:46] <Hixie_> ah ok excellent
  47. # [00:46] <Hixie_> that means i can copy the own properties with impunity
  48. # [00:48] <Hixie_> i wonder what alex thinks of Map and Set, given how they are essentially black magic that can't be explained by the platform primitives
  49. # [00:49] <Domenic_> How so?
  50. # [00:49] <Hixie_> there's no way to use an object as a value other than in these features
  51. # [00:49] <Hixie_> since JS has no pointers
  52. # [00:49] <Hixie_> or pointer analogue
  53. # [00:49] <Domenic_> Um
  54. # [00:49] <Hixie_> no?
  55. # [00:50] <TabAtkins> ???
  56. # [00:50] <TabAtkins> Really don't know what you're talking about, Hixie.
  57. # [00:50] <Hixie_> like, you couldn't write a polyfill that implements Map or Set without using Map or Set
  58. # [00:50] <Domenic_> There's a polyfill for Map on MDN I believe
  59. # [00:50] <TabAtkins> Yes you can. It doesn't have the same performance characteristics, though.
  60. # [00:50] <TabAtkins> (Linear time gets rather than constant time.)
  61. # [00:50] <Hixie_> if it's not the same perf characteristics, it's not compliant :-)
  62. # [00:50] <Domenic_> You can do constant time gets using trickery
  63. # [00:51] <TabAtkins> Domenic_: Really?
  64. # [00:51] <Domenic_> TabAtkins: yeah, the old "put a hidden property on it" trick.
  65. # [00:51] <Domenic_> where you override Object.getOwnPropertyNames etc. to not show that property
  66. # [00:51] <Domenic_> Doesn't really count though
  67. # [00:52] <TabAtkins> I don't understand how it would work.
  68. # [00:52] <TabAtkins> With an arbitrary object key.
  69. # [00:52] <Domenic_> You put a property on that key
  70. # [00:52] <Hixie_> Domenic_: interesting idea
  71. # [00:52] <TabAtkins> Oh!
  72. # [00:52] <TabAtkins> Tag the object with a ref to the map.
  73. # [00:52] <TabAtkins> Or a ref to the value.
  74. # [00:52] <Hixie_> or just an ID
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  76. # [00:53] <Hixie_> that you can then use as a key
  77. # [00:53] <TabAtkins> Hixie_: Yeah, you can gensym a key for it.
  78. # [00:53] <TabAtkins> Attaching the value to the key directly gives you the GC characteristics you want, I think.
  79. # [00:53] <Hixie_> anyway, seems weird that we'd be adding these somewhat elaborate features, rather than just features that would let you implement them simply enough
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  81. # [00:54] <Hixie_> if we had some sort of reference type, a pointer analogue, that could stringify, etc, it seems like it would make all this less magic
  82. # [00:54] <TabAtkins> Note that Extensible Web is never about "rather than". We want the primitives, but we *also* want the sugar. Relying on libraries to do all the sugaring is a failure mode to the economics of the network.
  83. # [00:54] <TabAtkins> But yes, there's a hidden primitive in Map.
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  85. # [00:57] <Hixie_> ...why does Set's spec mark an entry as "empty" rather than actually deleting it?
  86. # [00:58] <TabAtkins> Dunno.
  87. # [00:59] <Domenic_> I am not sure there is a concept of deleting things from spec-Lists...
  88. # [00:59] <Domenic_> Also maybe to emphasize how bad the algorithm is and how you really should go for observably-equivalent but smarter behavior
  89. # [01:00] <Hixie_> there isn't a concept of appending things from the JS's spec's Lists either, but we do that...
  90. # [01:01] <Hixie_> (speaking of which, the JS spec really should be less vague about its definition of the "array-like syntax" for Lists and the "object literal-like syntax" for Records, if it's going to use them normatively all over the place)
  91. # [01:03] <Domenic_> Oh weird I've never seen the array-like access for lists
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  93. # [01:05] <Hixie_> http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker?from=8373&to=8374
  94. # [01:05] <Hixie_> ^ Map and Set cloning
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  96. # [01:06] <Domenic_> niiiice
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  120. # [01:38] <TabAtkins> zcorpan: Your email address in CSSOM has a typo. The visible address is right, but the mailto link has an extra "p" in it.
  121. # [01:38] <TabAtkins> zcorpan: I'd fix, but it requires a local Anolis install, and I don't wanna do that.
  122. # [01:38] <TabAtkins> zcorpan: Also: get your spec on Bikeshed already. ^_^
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  564. # [10:39] <MikeSmit1> what populer JS libraries were in use before Prototype came along? (And then script.aculo.us)?
  565. # [10:39] * MikeSmit1 is now known as MikeSmith
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  621. # [14:26] <Ms2ger> odinho, the launch party is when MikeSmith gets the server setup on w3c-test, I guess
  622. # [14:31] <odinho> Hmm. Post-merge party then? :D
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  649. # [16:06] <MikeSmith> hmm I guess server setup's gonna require me to take time to create an init script and that kind of boring stuff
  650. # [16:07] <MikeSmith> rather than just running in a screen
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  666. # [17:14] <SimonSapin> Is this saying it’s *not* like the header? http://whatwg.org/C#pragma-set-default-language "This pragma is almost, but not quite, entirely unlike the HTTP Content-Language header of the same name."
  667. # [17:14] * Quits: gavinc (~gavin@barad-dur.carothers.name) (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
  668. # [17:18] <Ms2ger> It's almost entirely not like it, yes
  669. # [17:21] <gsnedders> Hmm, does the parser now define what order parse errors occur in?
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  671. # [17:27] <SimonSapin> The "Submit Review Comment" button says I’ve been automatically CC’ed to the bug, but it’s lying
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  694. # [20:00] <Ms2ger> Dammit python
  695. # [20:00] <Ms2ger> Now I'm doing "".join([]) in JS
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  697. # [20:10] <jgraham> Ms2ger: You know it makes sense
  698. # [20:11] <ondras> String.prototype.join = function(arr) { return arr.join(this); } ?
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  700. # [20:11] <jgraham> ondras: I don't think Ms2ger is *that* antisocial
  701. # [20:11] <Ms2ger> Ouch
  702. # [20:12] <ondras> :>
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  705. # [20:19] <smaug____> Ms2ger: you clearly should avoid that horrible horrible language called python.
  706. # [20:19] <Ms2ger> Oh, I thought JS :)
  707. # [20:19] <smaug____> hmm, could I have a goal for this q. Don't write any python code.
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  771. # Session Close: Sun Jan 05 00:00:00 2014

The end :)