/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2014-01-09 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Jan 09 00:00:00 2014
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  14. # [00:21] <Hixie> what spec is going to define 'scroll' and 'resize' events?
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  29. # [00:51] <Hixie> behold: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#events-0
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  35. # [00:58] <hober> alphabetical except for DOMContentLoaded?
  36. # [00:58] <annevk> smola: sorry it's all a bit slow, I'm in the midst of meetings (and should really be asleep now)
  37. # [00:59] <annevk> Hixie: cssom-view should prolly define scroll, dunno about resize
  38. # [00:59] <Hixie> html now says "some spec one day will" or something
  39. # [00:59] <annevk> Hixie: CSS in general really ought to own the whole scrolling concept
  40. # [00:59] <jwalden> hmm; http://www.w3.org/ "Learn how to program Web applications with W3C&#8217;s Mobile Web 2 online course"
  41. # [01:00] <Hixie> annevk: i'd hope
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  103. # [03:07] <MikeSmith> Hixie: yay for http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#events-0
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  124. # [03:11] <MikeSmith> Hixie: hmm how come it's not in the multipage version? just didn't regenerate it yet?
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  241. # [08:20] <zcorpan> Hixie: http://dev.w3.org/csswg/cssom-view/#events
  242. # [08:21] <zcorpan> smola: ?
  243. # [08:22] <smola> zcorpan: morning; I just wondered where should I report problems with web-platforms-tests
  244. # [08:22] <smola> GitHub Issues or somewhere else
  245. # [08:22] <Hixie> zcorpan: excellent, cool
  246. # [08:22] <Hixie> MikeSmith: done
  247. # [08:22] <Hixie> MikeSmith: dunno why it didn't take before
  248. # [08:22] <MikeSmith> thanks
  249. # [08:22] <zcorpan> smola: github issues
  250. # [08:23] <smola> zcorpan: alright, thanks
  251. # [08:25] <zcorpan> Hixie: help http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-web-perf/2014Jan/0014.html
  252. # [08:27] <Hixie> i'm too tired to work out the answer. ask me again tomorrow? :-)
  253. # [08:27] <Hixie> or copy some place in HTML that does it already... :-)
  254. # [08:28] <zcorpan> ok
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  256. # [08:38] <zcorpan> i think we want incumbent-settings-object although that's different from xhr
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  267. # [09:26] <annevk-cloud> New APIs should not copy from XHR
  268. # [09:28] <darobin> it would be fun
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  270. # [09:30] <darobin> element.onmousestatechange = function () { if (element.mouseState !== 17) return; ... }
  271. # [09:30] <darobin> actually, that'd make for a nice April Fool's spec
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  310. # [10:53] <zcorpan> annevk-cloud: you may want to review the Beacon spec, i think it has copied much of its stuff from xhr
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  341. # [12:00] <jgraham> Wow, even the innerHTML getter seems to be full of interop fail
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  347. # [12:18] <annevk> Reliable way to find out about why a feature could not be implemented. Search for the feature and "Boris Zbarsky"
  348. # [12:18] <annevk> jamesr__: so that email is about Event.systemTime
  349. # [12:19] <annevk> jamesr__: if you are just talking about the typedef, I think that could be directly in IDL
  350. # [12:19] <annevk> jamesr__: DOMTimeStamp is defined there too
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  353. # [12:31] <jgraham> annevk: heh
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  357. # [12:51] <SimonSapin> darobin: careful of Poe's law…
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  367. # [12:58] <darobin> SimonSapin: Poe's law is part of what makes it fun :)
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  402. # [14:21] <Ms2ger> jgraham, fun
  403. # [14:21] <Ms2ger> darobin, you realize that the CSSWG decided to reference an April Fools RFC?
  404. # [14:22] <darobin> Ms2ger: I know, RFC 6919
  405. # [14:22] <darobin> honestly, I don't understand why referencing that isn't a requirement for all documents
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  422. # [15:00] <SimonSapin> april fools or not, the definition of "may wish to" is perfect for this case
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  463. # [17:02] <Hixie> SimonSapin: we shouldn't be publishing specs that contain "behaviour which is regarded as ridiculous", and we certainly shouldn't be making compromises to expedite going through W3C process. Though I understand that that is a liability of working with the w3c.
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  465. # [17:05] <SimonSapin> Hixie: this was not about W3C process, it was about two working group members that could not agree after endless discussion on a topic that is so minor that is was judged not worth blocking the rest of the spec.
  466. # [17:06] <SimonSapin> IIRC it only affects a handful of code points, and only with broken fonts
  467. # [17:06] <jgraham> There are non-W3C processes where two members couldn't hold the group hostage like that
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  470. # [17:07] <jgraham> e.g. anything that is not consensus based
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  472. # [17:07] <Hixie> that couldn't happen in the whatwg. the editor gets final say on what the spec says.
  473. # [17:07] <Hixie> it's only because of the w3c's unhealthy obsession with "consensus" that it could happen
  474. # [17:07] <Hixie> what jgraham said.
  475. # [17:08] <SimonSapin> well, the two in this case are co-editors
  476. # [17:09] <Hixie> ah, well. there are whatwg specs with co-editors. but i think that's a mistake.
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  509. # [18:21] * tantek dials into HTMLWG telcon, hears discussion of longdesc. What year is it?
  510. # [18:21] <Ms2ger> You're dialing into an HTMLWG telcon
  511. # [18:21] <Ms2ger> 2001?
  512. # [18:23] <annevk-cloud> Sounds like someone is looking for a support forum
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  517. # [18:32] <Domenic_> where should i direct web developers asking for background on "what is this DRM hubbub with the w3c"
  518. # [18:32] * Ms2ger sticks his head in the sand
  519. # [18:32] <Domenic_> all i can think of is a few brendan eich posts which IIRC kind of assume you know what's going on already
  520. # [18:33] <tantek> Domenic_ - you could direct them to W3C blog posts on the subject
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  524. # [18:38] <MikeSmith> Domenic_: http://longtermlaziness.wordpress.com/2013/10/08/the-w3c-is-a-restaurant/
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  527. # [18:43] <tantek> good post MikeSmith
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  530. # [18:45] <MikeSmith> tantek: thanks I paid David Bruant to write it and then he still managed to only get 80% of it right
  531. # [18:46] <MikeSmith> but I think I got good value for my money
  532. # [18:46] <tantek> it's a decent analogy
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  535. # [18:49] <Hixie> it's a decent analogy except many restaurants would correctly turn away someone who came in waving a confederate flag or wearing a KKK hat
  536. # [18:50] <Ms2ger> Which reminds me that I noticed this morning that my university buys boxes of white chalk with "K" all along the outside
  537. # [18:50] <Ms2ger> And they are just wide enough to put three K's side by side
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  547. # [19:00] <jgraham> It's a terrible analogy
  548. # [19:00] <MikeSmith> Ms2ger: don't bring that box into the restaurant that Hixie mentions. They might misunderstand. Especially if you stand on the box and wave your confederate flag.
  549. # [19:00] <jgraham> Argument by naology generally is
  550. # [19:00] <jgraham> *analogy
  551. # [19:00] <Ms2ger> MikeSmith, or they might laugh at me. It's not a large box :)
  552. # [19:01] <jgraham> At a resturant the resturant is in full control over the food + etc. The W3C isn't like that at all
  553. # [19:03] <MikeSmith> jgraham: put your money where your mouth is and pay David to write your side of the story
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  555. # [19:04] <jgraham> Personally I see the W3C as like a standards organisation. One that has hired a lot of people who want to keep their jobs and so is likely to take decisions that will maintain its sources of income.
  556. # [19:05] <MikeSmith> well that sounds pretty unique
  557. # [19:05] <MikeSmith> there aren't much organizations like that
  558. # [19:05] <MikeSmith> sounds pretty crazy
  559. # [19:05] <Ms2ger> Do you like your job? ;)
  560. # [19:06] <MikeSmith> you want me to answer that question honestly?
  561. # [19:06] <MikeSmith> wait
  562. # [19:06] <MikeSmith> remind me what's my job
  563. # [19:07] <Ms2ger> Talking to monks
  564. # [19:07] <jgraham> MikeSmith: Fortunately the preponderance of other organisations that work in similar ways — not all of them standards organisations, even! — makes it easy to understand the W3C by comparison to the behaviour of those other organisations with which we are more familiar in my model. No such thing can be said of the "resturant" model.
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  566. # [19:09] <MikeSmith> but I like David's restaurant
  567. # [19:09] <MikeSmith> you're right that all analogies suck
  568. # [19:09] <MikeSmith> some just suck less than others
  569. # [19:10] <astearns> a restaurant is not a for-profit organization?
  570. # [19:11] <astearns> arguments by analogy devolve pretty quickly to arguments over the analogy
  571. # [19:11] <MikeSmith> astearns: that's a feature
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  574. # [19:13] <MikeSmith> jgraham: it's sometimes hard to find anybody who's made a point reasonably well who's not resorted to using an analogy
  575. # [19:14] <SteveF> MikeSmith: "remind me what's my job" MPAA fluffer
  576. # [19:17] <jgraham> MikeSmith: I dunno, it's usually just a case of waiting for hsivonen
  577. # [19:20] <MikeSmith> jgraham: oh but as I recall hsivonen recently got accused of using a bad analogy
  578. # [19:21] <MikeSmith> "emotive" even
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  580. # [19:21] <smola> I feel like some cases in URL parsing in browsers were implemented just as an amusement...
  581. # [19:22] <jgraham> MikeSmith: Hmm, point
  582. # [19:22] <jgraham> I had forgotten that. Too much ice cream I guess.
  583. # [19:22] <smola> %ef%bc%85%ef%bc%94%ef%bc%91.com -> \uff05\uff14\uff11.com (%41 in full-width characters) -> %41.com -> a.com
  584. # [19:22] <Domenic_> annevk-cloud: is Mozilla at least implementing the URL spec's parsing algorithm?
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  591. # [19:28] <MikeSmith> SteveF: applied for that job but was told another prominent WG member had already taken it. so oh well
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  593. # [19:29] <MikeSmith> Ms2ger: btw I think that guy wasn't really a monk. Look at his shoes.
  594. # [19:30] * MikeSmith goes back to fiddling with the w3c-test.org server to make CSS WG drafts disappear
  595. # [19:32] <Hixie> oh, bummer
  596. # [19:32] <Hixie> SimonSapin's bug about charset="" is next on my list
  597. # [19:32] <Hixie> quick, someone give me an excuse to do something else
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  601. # [19:34] <SimonSapin> smola: amazing. Does it work across browsers?
  602. # [19:34] <Hixie> i guess i should jsut do all the CSSOM bugs at once
  603. # [19:34] <smola> SimonSapin: yes it does
  604. # [19:34] <smola> SimonSapin: Chrome and Firefox at least
  605. # [19:35] <SimonSapin> annevk-cloud: I don’t know if that’s in the URL spec ^
  606. # [19:35] <SimonSapin> not sure it should, either
  607. # [19:35] <smola> it isn't, I'm reporting it
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  609. # [19:37] <smola> %ef%bc%85%ef%bc%94%ef%bc%91.com is even weirder
  610. # [19:37] <smola> SimonSapin: well, I can hardly imagine how can you get \uff05\uff14\uff11.com (manually entering %41.com instead of a.com in a CJK system)... but the second case,
  611. # [19:37] <smola> (swap the order of these sentences :p)
  612. # [19:38] <smola> I wonder if browsers work on any number of iterations of this encoding
  613. # [19:38] <smola> nope, if you repeat the process they do not work
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  620. # [19:50] <smaug____> annevk-cloud: ping
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  622. # [19:52] <annevk-cloud> Not today, sorry
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  629. # [20:01] <Hixie> SimonSapin: ping https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=24205 -- are we talking at cross-purposes? I don't understand your last comment.
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  631. # [20:03] <SimonSapin> Hixie: as I understand the algorithm in the current spec, <meta http-equiv="Content-Language" content="fr and some random stuff"> will set the language to "fr"
  632. # [20:03] <Hixie> right
  633. # [20:03] <Hixie> that is as intended
  634. # [20:03] <Hixie> why would we not want that?
  635. # [20:04] <SimonSapin> I’d rather have it not set the language, like when there is a comma
  636. # [20:04] <SimonSapin> and I think browsers do that
  637. # [20:05] <Hixie> browsers seem to set it to the whole string
  638. # [20:05] <Hixie> as in "fr and some random stuff"
  639. # [20:06] <Hixie> the reason for aborting when there's a comma is that if there's a comma, it indicates the pragma is being used in some way like the HTTP header, and not like the pragma, and therefore doing anything with it is going to be bogus.
  640. # [20:07] <SimonSapin> ok, I got my testing wrong
  641. # [20:07] <SimonSapin> Chrome uses the whole thing, but not firefox
  642. # [20:08] <SimonSapin> well if that’s intentional, ok
  643. # [20:09] <Hixie> i can't tell if firefox is using content-language at all
  644. # [20:10] <SimonSapin> yes data:text/html,<meta http-equiv="content-language" content="fr"><style>body:lang(fr){background:green
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  646. # [20:11] <SimonSapin> Hixie: I’m happy with just adding a note "Ignore the rest of the string" to show that this is intentional
  647. # [20:12] <Hixie> ah, typo in my test
  648. # [20:12] <Hixie> looks like firefox is setting the language to _seomthing_ when you have a bogus content-language
  649. # [20:12] <Hixie> but i can't work out what
  650. # [20:12] <Hixie> it's not "und", it's not leaving it set to the previous value
  651. # [20:12] <SimonSapin> "Ignore the rest of <var>input</var>"
  652. # [20:12] <Hixie> maybe "" but :lang() can't match that?
  653. # [20:12] <Hixie> k
  654. # [20:12] <SimonSapin> no, :lang() only takes idents, not strings
  655. # [20:12] <gsnedders> SimonSapin: As I just wrote on GitHub, uh, yeah, firstChunk is going to be horrible.
  656. # [20:13] <gsnedders> SimonSapin: Maybe we should just go for special-casing every single thing that's broken :(
  657. # [20:13] <Hixie> SimonSapin: right, but i'm trying to figure out how we could determine what the language was otherwise
  658. # [20:13] <gsnedders> SimonSapin: Could try avoid reading at all by doing isinstance(source, io.TextIO)/etc.
  659. # [20:13] <Hixie> not that it really matters
  660. # [20:13] <Hixie> but i presume it's internally the empty string
  661. # [20:13] <gsnedders> SimonSapin: But that doesn't work in general. But at least avoids hitting 200007 in Python 3.
  662. # [20:14] <SimonSapin> gsnedders: hum, do we really care about unicode streams? :)
  663. # [20:15] <gsnedders> SimonSapin: Yes. Consider TEXT fields in a database, for example.
  664. # [20:17] <gsnedders> SimonSapin: (Avoids hitting 200007 with urllib.response.HTTPResponse in Python 3, that is.)
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  666. # [20:19] <Hixie> "When a ProcessingInstruction node node is inserted to a document, removed from a document, becomes part of the prolog, is no longer part of the prolog, ..."
  667. # [20:19] <Hixie> don't the first two there subsume the last two entirely?
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  671. # [20:24] <Ms2ger> Hixie, can it become part of the prolog by removing a node from before it?
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  695. # [20:55] <Hixie> Ms2ger: i guess you could remove the root element?
  696. # [20:55] <Hixie> Ms2ger: but it'd still be part of the document...
  697. # [20:56] <Ms2ger> I dunno, what's the prolog? :)
  698. # [20:56] <Ms2ger> Except a sucky programming language
  699. # [20:58] <jarek> are there any plans to have standarized UI guidelines?
  700. # [20:58] <jarek> I mean something more advanced than CSS3 UI spec
  701. # [20:59] <Ms2ger> In general, browsers compete on UI
  702. # [21:00] <jarek> e.g. something akin to Human Interface Guidelines
  703. # [21:00] <jarek> by Apple
  704. # [21:01] <jarek> yeah, Mozilla works on pseudo-standard components in form of x-tags
  705. # [21:01] <jarek> and Google works on Polymer widgets
  706. # [21:02] <jory> Is there a spec re: viewport meta tag behaviour, or is it still just something that everyone kind of has implemented the same way?
  707. # [21:02] <Ms2ger> There's something in css
  708. # [21:03] <Ms2ger> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-device-adapt/
  709. # [21:05] <jory> Thanks Ms2ger
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  711. # [21:08] <jory> One thing that I don't think is covered is the behaviour of the browser when the tag is added after the document has loaded.
  712. # [21:09] <Ms2ger> Quite possible
  713. # [21:09] <jory> Such edge cases. Many behaviours.
  714. # [21:10] <Ms2ger> Wow?
  715. # [21:11] <jory> Quite wow.
  716. # [21:11] <jory> heh
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  768. # [22:33] <zcorpan> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=24257 is crazy
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  775. # [22:48] <zcorpan> Hixie: being part of the document isn't enough to make xml-stylesheet "work". it needs to be in the prolog. hence the need to run the steps again if the root element is moved
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  777. # [22:49] <Hixie> the steps run regardless of whether it's in the prolog
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  779. # [22:50] <Hixie> and the steps don't mention the prolog
  780. # [22:50] <Hixie> (i filed a bug on this btw)
  781. # [22:51] <zcorpan> Hixie: it's mentioned in the xml-stylesheet spec
  782. # [22:52] * heycam is now known as heycam|away
  783. # [22:52] <Hixie> xml-ss overrides cssom somehow?
  784. # [22:52] <zcorpan> no
  785. # [22:52] <zcorpan> cssom says "If node is not an xml-stylesheet processing instruction, terminate these steps."
  786. # [22:52] <zcorpan> -> http://www.w3.org/TR/xml-stylesheet/#dt-xml-stylesheet
  787. # [22:52] <zcorpan> -> http://www.w3.org/TR/xml-stylesheet/#dt-potential-xml-stylesheet
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  789. # [22:53] <zcorpan> apologize for the infoset gibberish, but it's there
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  791. # [22:53] <zcorpan> <root/><?xml-stylesheet?> isn't an "xml-stylesheet processing instruction"
  792. # [22:54] <Ms2ger> Sounds like we need an xmlss.spec.whatwg.org ;)
  793. # [22:55] <zcorpan> it would have been less painful than doing it in the xml core wg
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  813. # [23:14] <Hixie> zcorpan: oh. then why the bit about the document?
  814. # [23:16] <zcorpan> Hixie: hmm. maybe it's not necessary
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  816. # [23:18] * Ms2ger wonders if jgraham feels like making a graph of the number of open w-p-t reviews
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  819. # [23:22] <zcorpan> if i remove that, i can also remove the "part of the doctype" check (i guess it was no-op already since dom doesn't support that)
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  828. # [23:30] <zcorpan> hmm. dvcs down :-(
  829. # [23:30] * zcorpan tries again tomorrow
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  832. # [23:36] <Ms2ger> MikeSmith, ^
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  835. # [23:47] <Hixie> zcorpan: do we really want to refetch <link rel=stylesheet> if type="text/css" is added or removed?
  836. # [23:47] <Hixie> (given that the default is text/css?)
  837. # [23:47] <Hixie> also, are you handling _all_ rel=stylesheet links? including e.g. xslt?
  838. # [23:47] <Hixie> or should i only send you type=text/css ones?
  839. # [23:49] <zcorpan> Hixie: re first question, maybe not
  840. # [23:50] <zcorpan> Hixie: cssom only handles css. though xslt doesn't work with <link>
  841. # [23:50] <Hixie> i'm pretending that there might be some other style sheet language some day
  842. # [23:50] * Joins: jeremyj (~jeremyj@17.114.110.41)
  843. # [23:51] <Ms2ger> Why?
  844. # [23:51] <Hixie> i'll only send you the stuff if it's text/css. that means i'll keep the quirk, btw.
  845. # [23:51] <Hixie> why what?
  846. # [23:52] <zcorpan> why do you need to keep the quirk?
  847. # [23:53] <Ms2ger> <Hixie> i'm pretending that there might be some other style sheet language some day
  848. # [23:53] <Hixie> zcorpan: because i can't send it to you until i know it's css, and i don't know it's css until i've applied the quirk
  849. # [23:53] * Joins: bholley (~bholley@c-50-148-162-19.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  850. # [23:53] <Hixie> Ms2ger: seems like the responsible thing to do
  851. # [23:54] <zcorpan> Hixie: ok
  852. # [23:54] * Joins: SonicX (~quassel@n128-227-159-240.xlate.ufl.edu)
  853. # [23:57] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@17.114.217.170)
  854. # [23:57] * Quits: llkats (~llkats@206.169.83.230) (Remote host closed the connection)
  855. # [23:57] * Quits: necolas (~necolas@8.25.197.24) (Remote host closed the connection)
  856. # [23:57] * Quits: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@91.180.161.203) (Quit: nn)
  857. # [23:58] * Joins: ap (~ap@17.114.111.59)
  858. # [23:58] <zcorpan> Hixie: bedtime for me, but feel free to dump questions here, i'll check tomorrow
  859. # [23:59] * Joins: llkats (~llkats@206.169.83.230)
  860. # [23:59] <Hixie> zcorpan: roger
  861. # [23:59] <Hixie> zcorpan: nn
  862. # [23:59] <zcorpan> night
  863. # [23:59] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@90-230-218-37-no135.tbcn.telia.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
  864. # Session Close: Fri Jan 10 00:00:00 2014

The end :)