/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2014-01-16 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Jan 16 00:00:00 2014
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  9. # [00:10] <Hixie> arunranga: feel free to not use /TR :-)
  10. # [00:10] <Hixie> nobody's forcing you :-)
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  46. # [00:28] <TabAtkins> miketaylr: Yo, you have a corpus of JS to run regex on, right?
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  48. # [00:31] <miketaylr> TabAtkins: yeah, just a folder on my HD right now, hopefully something more structured in the near future
  49. # [00:32] <TabAtkins> miketaylr: kk. I'm just wondering about checking for any usage of CSSCharsetRule, CHARSET_RULE, or ".encoding".
  50. # [00:33] <miketaylr> TabAtkins: sure thing, will grep for those later tonight and ping you (about to peace out for dinner)
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  52. # [00:33] <TabAtkins> Thanks!
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  286. # [10:18] <zcorpan> annevk-cloud: "If url's relative flag is set, set encoding override to utf-8." http://url.spec.whatwg.org/#query-state
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  288. # [10:19] <zcorpan> annevk-cloud: isn't that backwards? or am i misreading it?
  289. # [10:20] <zcorpan> annevk-cloud: i read that encoding override gets set to utf-8 for urls with relative schemes
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  291. # [10:23] <zcorpan> annevk-cloud: also, should ws/wss not always use utf-8? not that they're useful in <a href> but still
  292. # [10:27] <SteveF> arunranga: FWIW moves afoot to have editors drafts at /TR http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/spec-prod/2014JanMar/thread.html
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  308. # [11:46] <annevk> Is WHATWG down?
  309. # [11:47] <annevk> Hmm just slow
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  311. # [12:01] <annevk> Was there no Gecko bug for https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=24005 ?
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  313. # [12:06] <zcorpan_> annevk: added tests https://critic.hoppipolla.co.uk/showcommit?first=c94f486e&last=70f343af&review=437
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  315. # [12:06] <wefo> Hmm.
  316. # [12:07] <wefo> Can somebody please confirm with me that line 1 loads the font "whenever it feels like it", and line 2 loads the font "right now, before loading anything else"? http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=7m8LnWeK
  317. # [12:07] <annevk> zcorpan_: I can do the utf-8 thing for ws/wss
  318. # [12:07] <wefo> That is, somebody who knows this stuff.
  319. # [12:07] <annevk> zcorpan_: your bug report seems accurate
  320. # [12:07] <zcorpan_> annevk: ok
  321. # [12:08] <annevk> wefo: the second line uses an invalid data URL; it won't get you anywhere
  322. # [12:09] <wefo> Yeah, I just noticed.
  323. # [12:09] <wefo> Because it breaks on my computer.
  324. # [12:09] <wefo> annevk: I was told to use the latter.
  325. # [12:09] <annevk> wefo: there's no guarantees on when a data URL is interpreted and applied to a page with respect to fonts at the moment
  326. # [12:09] <wefo> Because it supposedly works "block-mode".
  327. # [12:09] <wefo> So then that guy was lying.
  328. # [12:09] <wefo> I will have to do the insane hack after all.
  329. # [12:09] <annevk> wefo: well if you include the entire font inline it's reasonable to assume it'll apply faster
  330. # [12:09] <wefo> Include the entire font inline?
  331. # [12:10] <annevk> wefo: since the font will download together with the style sheet, but you need to know how to use data URLs
  332. # [12:10] <wefo> Oh... is that the direct data stuff in base64 or something?
  333. # [12:11] <wefo> I was going to use this insane hack to determine if the user indeed has the font loaded: http://www.kirupa.com/html5/detect_whether_font_is_installed.htm
  334. # [12:11] <wefo> Frankly, it's kind of ingenious.
  335. # [12:11] <wefo> I like it when things like that "work", even if they are not ideal.
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  339. # [12:20] <jgraham_> annevk: I nominate you to do that code review btw
  340. # [12:20] * jgraham_ is now known as jgraham
  341. # [12:21] <annevk> jgraham: zcorpan_: done
  342. # [12:21] <annevk> Oh I see there is a bunch more...
  343. # [12:21] <jgraham> Heh
  344. # [12:22] <annevk> jgraham: so this move: https://critic.hoppipolla.co.uk/57951ecc?review=437
  345. # [12:22] <annevk> jgraham: that should just be fine no?
  346. # [12:22] <annevk> jgraham: you already reviewed a bunch
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  348. # [12:24] <jgraham> annevk: I reviewed all the trivial bits
  349. # [12:24] <jgraham> Basically all the hard stuff is the .js file
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  351. # [12:25] <annevk> Can you give me a review link for that file?
  352. # [12:25] <annevk> I have the feeling I keep looking at individual commits
  353. # [12:27] <jgraham> https://critic.hoppipolla.co.uk/showcommit?review=437&filter=pending
  354. # [12:27] <zcorpan_> annevk: you can drag-and-drop in the commit list to get a squashed review
  355. # [12:28] <jgraham> Yeah, or use the filter links just above it
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  357. # [12:30] <annevk> Ah great
  358. # [12:31] <annevk> So this looks okay to me... I take it you have run it all?
  359. # [12:32] <annevk> My only nit is using a string rather than array...
  360. # [12:32] <annevk> I guess you didn't want to type all the quotes or something?
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  363. # [12:34] <zcorpan_> yeah
  364. # [12:35] <zcorpan_> i've run it, yes. but some browser bugs cause some tests to time out, so it's not awesome
  365. # [12:36] <zcorpan_> also search for XXX
  366. # [12:38] <jgraham> zcorpan_: If some tests time out that's probably OK as long as the other tests still run
  367. # [12:38] <zcorpan_> ok, yeah they do
  368. # [12:39] <jgraham> I can live with that. We can always improve it in followup commits if there's something that causes problems
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  371. # [12:50] * jgraham assumes annevk didn't *really* care about the array thing
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  373. # [12:51] <jgraham> zcorpan_: Worth squashing before pushing or should I just merge?
  374. # [12:51] <annevk> I'd like to hear some reasoning
  375. # [12:51] <annevk> But I'm not going to block on it :-)
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  377. # [12:51] <zcorpan_> i commented in critic
  378. # [12:52] <zcorpan_> jgraham: no opinion
  379. # [12:53] <jgraham> Let's just merge
  380. # [12:54] <jgraham> Done
  381. # [12:54] <jgraham> zcorpan_, annevk: Thanks
  382. # [12:54] <zcorpan_> thank you!
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  385. # [13:15] <MikeSmith> annevk: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20140115#l-803
  386. # [13:19] <hsivonen> what make people post to Usenet using DOS encodings?
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  388. # [13:24] <hsivonen> *makes
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  390. # [13:26] <MikeSmith> fashion statement
  391. # [13:26] <icaaq> hi, here they use the label element http://filamentgroup.com/lab/bulletproof_icon_fonts/ to "label" som text. is that really semantically correct?
  392. # [13:30] <hsivonen> "Windows codepage 1252, the codepage commonly used for English and other Western European languages, was based on an American National Standards Institute (ANSI) draft. That draft eventually became ISO 8859-1, but Windows codepage 1252 was implemented before the standard became final, and is not exactly the same as ISO 8859-1."
  393. # [13:30] <hsivonen> http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ee719641.aspx
  394. # [13:31] <hsivonen> so windows-1252 even existed first!
  395. # [13:31] <Ms2ger> Sounds like the box model in old-IE
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  403. # [14:06] <annevk> hsivonen: man, the more I hear about ISO and encodings, ...
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  405. # [14:08] <annevk> MikeSmith: interesting suggestion :-)
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  412. # [14:26] <annevk> MikeSmith: that doesn't quite work for suggesting what it is
  413. # [14:28] <MikeSmith> annevk: maybe it's not necessary to suggest what it is. In the end it's just an opaque string, right?
  414. # [14:28] <annevk> It's an opaque string, most typically used as part of the DNS or as a local network address.
  415. # [14:28] <annevk> Maybe something like that could work, if I can find good references for both.
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  420. # [14:42] <zcorpan> Hixie: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/embedded-content-0.html#text-tracks-exposing-in-band-metadata doesn't seem to exist in whatwg html
  421. # [14:43] <zcorpan> Hixie: what's the deal?
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  423. # [14:45] <MikeSmith> annevk: A domain label is either an IN-ADDR.ARPA suffix or an opaque string that represents one octet of an Internet address.
  424. # [14:46] <MikeSmith> hmm what does that even mean
  425. # [14:46] <Ms2ger`> How about IPv6?
  426. # [14:47] <annevk> Ms2ger`: well we know that's not a domain label :-)
  427. # [14:47] <zcorpan> a domain label is an extremity of Jesus
  428. # [14:48] <MikeSmith> heh
  429. # [14:48] <annevk> "The text attribute, on getting, must return UTF-16 text converted from data of the text track cue that the TextTrackCue object represents." more like what's the deal with that text
  430. # [14:49] <Ms2ger`> No ip6.arpa?
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  438. # [15:09] <zcorpan> w3c-test.org doesn't use wpt-serve yet?
  439. # [15:10] <jgraham> MikeSmith was working on it
  440. # [15:12] <MikeSmith> still "working" on it yeah
  441. # [15:12] <MikeSmith> meaning, procrastinating
  442. # [15:12] <MikeSmith> if only the CSS WG didn't exist, things would all be much simpler
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  453. # [15:32] <zcorpan> not sure how i got here but it was a bit funny http://9gag.com/gag/agyOxmx
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  456. # [15:35] <wefo> zcorpan: "These are Satan. Bears."
  457. # [15:38] <annevk> GitHub down?
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  463. # [15:50] <mathiasbynens> annevk: WFM
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  470. # [16:09] <annevk> mathiasbynens: ta
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  491. # [16:58] <annevk> IBM emailed the WHATWG list. Can someone confirm hell froze over?
  492. # [16:59] <jgraham> Can't verify, too busy dodging flying pigs
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  500. # [17:08] * GPHemsley is in cold Georgia. Does that count?
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  510. # [17:35] <wefo> Wait... there is a textAlign property to contexts? So all those hours of measuring the width and doing complex math calculations to get it centered were wasted?
  511. # [17:36] <wefo> Is this some kind of bleeding edge feature? I hate never being able to tell. There is no clear documentation whatsoever.
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  525. # [17:53] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
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  532. # [18:02] <Hixie> zcorpan: DataCue doesn't make sense. If you don't know the format, how can you expose it? If you do know the format, then use the interface that that format provides.
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  551. # [18:28] <MikeSmith> CORS is Recommendation
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  553. # [18:29] <MikeSmith> now all the confused deputy attacks can begin in earnest
  554. # [18:29] * Ms2ger` confuses MikeSmith
  555. # [18:30] <MikeSmith> ...
  556. # [18:30] <Hixie> isn't CORS obsolete? i thought Fetch replaced it a while back.
  557. # [18:30] <MikeSmith> Hixie: well yeah
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  559. # [18:32] <MikeSmith> it has joined the ranks of the undead
  560. # [18:32] * Joins: arunranga (~otherarun@cpe-98-14-83-233.nyc.res.rr.com)
  561. # [18:32] <Hixie> wait is that the one anne was telling me about where they decided to just ignore all the open bugs?
  562. # [18:32] <MikeSmith> bingo
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  564. # [18:32] <MikeSmith> they "resolved" them though
  565. # [18:33] <MikeSmith> which is technically different from ignoring them
  566. # [18:33] <Hixie> iirc they ignored them for 2 years then resolved them as not relevant since nobody had looked at them in two years
  567. # [18:34] <MikeSmith> that would be one way to describe it, yes
  568. # [18:34] <MikeSmith> the accurate way
  569. # [18:34] <Hixie> which is some bug system ninja juju that i have to say is pretty impressive
  570. # [18:34] <MikeSmith> hey this is what we WGs for man
  571. # [18:34] <MikeSmith> that kind of magic
  572. # [18:36] <jgraham> Wait what? MikeSmith is a deputy?
  573. # [18:36] <Hixie> i wish there were journalists who cared about this kind of crap enough to report on it
  574. # [18:36] <jgraham> So who's the sheriff in this town?
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  576. # [18:36] <jgraham> Isn't that a trick they learnt from the chrome bugtracker?
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  578. # [18:36] <Hixie> i mean, this is just as messed up as some political shenanigans, and has similar long-term effects (which is to say, mostly none)
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  580. # [18:37] <jgraham> Well it's mildly more interesting than who the president of France is sleeping with, but I'm not sure why that's being reported either
  581. # [18:38] <MikeSmith> yeah it's like politics but robbed of all the debauchery
  582. # [18:39] <MikeSmith> which just makes it depressing instead of scandalous
  583. # [18:39] <jgraham> Anyway, if EME has taught you nothing else it should have been that getting press attention only leads to a bunch of people with extremely shallow understanding of the issues getting rilled up in an entirely impotent way
  584. # [18:39] <MikeSmith> jgraham: but, freedom!
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  586. # [18:40] <Hixie> jgraham: at least it'd make me feel like i wasn't alone in thinking it was ridiculous :-)
  587. # [18:41] <Domenic_> "Congratulations Anne on today's publication of the CORS Recommendation!" hmmmm
  588. # [18:41] <MikeSmith> jgraham seems to not understand about the Wisdom of the Crowds
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  590. # [18:42] <jgraham> I only think it's ridiculous if you are measuing against The Process. If you think a Process where things go to Rec. irrespective of bugs, and then are worked on further, is better then CORS is doing all the right things. Now W3C probably don't realise that, but perhaps they will cotton on one of these decades
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  592. # [18:43] <jgraham> (actually closing the bugs is nonsense of course)
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  596. # [18:45] <arunranga> I think we should add text that refers to CORS as a snapshot subset of Fetch.
  597. # [18:45] <Hixie> jgraham: what i find ridiculous is the hypocrisy of claiming to care about a process and then _blatently_ not caring about it
  598. # [18:46] * icaaq is now known as icaaq|afc
  599. # [18:47] <MikeSmith> well they are standing on the shoulders of some giants, as far as that pattern goes
  600. # [18:48] <MikeSmith> well maybe not giants
  601. # [18:49] <Hixie> i really don't understand why anyone would claim to believe in one set of principles, but act in a way contrary to them. i really don't see the point. why lie about your values? or if it's not a lie, why not do a good job of actually meeting them?
  602. # [18:49] <Hixie> i just don't get it
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  604. # [18:49] <jgraham> Because they don't see it as a moral problem
  605. # [18:50] <jgraham> It's a simple path-finding exercise. "I need to achieve X. Constraints Y exist. How can I get to X as fast as possible given Y"
  606. # [18:50] <Hixie> ok but then why claim that one is trying to achieve Z?
  607. # [18:50] <jgraham> The only confusion is the fact that the *stated* Y and the reality of Y are quite different
  608. # [18:51] <Hixie> right, that's what i'm saying
  609. # [18:51] <Hixie> why not state the truth?
  610. # [18:51] <jgraham> Well see it from the point of view of the W3C
  611. # [18:51] <Hixie> i don't understand the point of view of the W3C, that's my problem
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  613. # [18:52] <Domenic_> It seems like there are pretty obvious gains, in general, from stating a position of one thing and then doing another thing
  614. # [18:52] <Domenic_> That shouldn't be hard to understand
  615. # [18:53] <jgraham> If they rigrously enforced all the stated Y, it would take forever to get anything done and people would do work elsewhere. But part of Y is that changing the stated Y is very difficult, so instead they make up Y' which is Y with a whole load of concessions to the people actually trying to do X"
  616. # [18:53] * Quits: webben (~benjamin@198.61.227.102) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  617. # [18:53] <Hixie> Domenic_: what are the gains here?
  618. # [18:54] <Hixie> jgraham: nothing is "very difficult"
  619. # [18:54] <jgraham> A downside is that not everyone is clear on what exactly is allowed in Y' so they do silly things that they think look more like Y (e.g. closing bugs for no reason)
  620. # [18:54] <Hixie> jgraham: the w3c could do anything they wanted when they wanted, if they actually wanted to
  621. # [18:54] <Hixie> (as far as this stuff goes, anyway)
  622. # [18:54] <jgraham> Hixie: They don't believe that though
  623. # [18:54] <Domenic_> Patention protection, most charitably? Also, it looks good to publish things. Most people don't hard enough to discover that the sausage-making process involved closing a lot of unresolved bugs.
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  626. # [18:55] <Hixie> jgraham: as you said, they already do Y', which violates their stated Y, so to some extent they clearly believe it
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  628. # [18:56] <Hixie> Domenic_: they can get both patent protection and the "looking good" stuff without any of the other problems, if that's all they want.
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  630. # [18:56] <jgraham> They believe that small, unofficial, changes are easy. It doesn't mean that they believe that making those changes official is easy
  631. # [18:56] <Ms2ger`> Hixie, working around Y by doing Y' in a way that superficially looks like Y may be easier than changing Y
  632. # [18:57] <Hixie> Ms2ger`: i could literally change Y overnight if i was w3c's ceo.
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  634. # [18:57] <Hixie> s/could/would/
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  637. # [18:57] <jgraham> Hixie: Right but you don't care about pissing off Boeing or whoever
  638. # [18:57] <Hixie> right, i care about the web
  639. # [18:58] <Hixie> which is what the w3c claims to care about too
  640. # [18:58] <Ms2ger`> Hixie, I'm sure you would want to. Not entirely convinced that you could
  641. # [18:59] <jgraham> If your argument boils down to "W3C cares more about maintaining its membership than making the decisions that the team think are best for the web" then it's hard to disagree
  642. # [18:59] <Hixie> my argument is "the w3c cares about something different than they say they care about"
  643. # [18:59] <Hixie> or rather, not even that necesrraily
  644. # [19:00] <Hixie> more "the w3c management either cares about something different than they say they care about, or, they are really bad about achieving what they claim they care about"
  645. # [19:00] <jgraham> That would make them like pretty much every other entity every
  646. # [19:00] <jgraham> *ever
  647. # [19:00] <jgraham> The world is full of organisations with mission statments full of unicorns and flowers who actually care about maintaining their sources of income and very little else
  648. # [19:01] <Hixie> certainly
  649. # [19:01] <Hixie> i feel the same way about all those too
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  651. # [19:01] <jgraham> Your life must be a series of crushing disappointments
  652. # [19:02] <Hixie> but those other organisations don't steal my work and screw it up all the time
  653. # [19:02] <Hixie> and the work of others whom i care about
  654. # [19:02] <Hixie> so they disappoint me proportionally less
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  657. # [19:03] <jgraham> It's possible that on a broader scale many of those other organisations do things that have much worse externialities
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  659. # [19:03] <Hixie> certainly
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  662. # [19:04] <jgraham> I mean the W3C can only really cause limited damage. It can annoy you and cause the rest of us to have to point everyone we know to whatwg specs
  663. # [19:04] <Hixie> i'm not making any judgements as to absolute objective harm :-)
  664. # [19:05] <jgraham> OK, well I guess it's pretty normal that your personal sense of disappointment isn't correlated with objective harm
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  668. # [19:07] <Hixie> btw, i would appreciate a review of https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23475#c16 from people here
  669. # [19:07] <Hixie> it's a proposal for revamping how focus works
  670. # [19:07] <Hixie> (new proposal from yesterday with more readable terms and more web compatability)
  671. # [19:08] <Hixie> it handles, amongst other things, scrollable regions (long ignored by specs) and <dialog>s (new)
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  674. # [19:21] <Hixie> on a different note... i wonder where to spec that the 'select' event fires sometimes
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  676. # [19:22] <Hixie> (in response to user interaction, i mean)
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  681. # [19:25] <annevk> I have another REC...
  682. # [19:25] <annevk> css3-namespace and cors
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  684. # [19:26] <annevk> And I'm not a big fan of either
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  690. # [19:32] <Hixie> annevk: http://w3cmemes.tumblr.com/post/73529051245 :-P
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  693. # [19:33] <annevk> Hixie: no wonder I act out like in http://w3cmemes.tumblr.com/post/73519371870/anne-van-kesteren-ladies-and-gentlemen-csswgs
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  696. # [19:35] <Hixie> annevk: :-P
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  700. # [19:39] <aklein> annevk: hi there, still about?
  701. # [19:39] <annevk> aklein: if it's quick
  702. # [19:39] <annevk> aklein: I'll be in SF starting Monday 4/5PM
  703. # [19:39] <annevk> aklein: until the 31st
  704. # [19:39] <aklein> annevk: another time, then, I was just curious if you think there's anything else to be done about ShadowRoot.baseURI without isolation
  705. # [19:40] <aklein> annevk: ah, cool, we should meet up at some point
  706. # [19:40] <annevk> aklein: after you brought up your point I wasn't so sure anymore what the point would be
  707. # [19:40] <aklein> annevk: yeah, that was my thought, just wondering if there were things I hadn't thought of
  708. # [19:41] <annevk> aklein: in the declarative scenario it might work better
  709. # [19:41] <aklein> the good news is that without <element> being specced, folks have to do something to set up their ShadowRoot anyway so they can fix their URLs by hand for now
  710. # [19:41] <annevk> aklein: right
  711. # [19:41] <aklein> sounds like we're on the same page
  712. # [19:41] <annevk> aklein: I'm still interested in defining baseURI though, potentially removing most of the cruft for now then
  713. # [19:43] <aklein> annevk: indeed, the current HTML definition of baseURLs is...not good
  714. # [19:43] <aklein> especially since Gecko actually fully supports xml:base
  715. # [19:43] <aklein> anyway, I'll let you go for now and catch up later
  716. # [19:45] <Hixie> wait what?
  717. # [19:45] <Hixie> what's wrong with the HTML definition?
  718. # [19:45] <Hixie> HTML supports xml:base
  719. # [19:45] <annevk> We don't want to support xml:base :-)
  720. # [19:45] <aklein> Hixie: neither Blink nor WebKit support xml:base in HTML documents
  721. # [19:46] <Hixie> i'm not following the problem here
  722. # [19:46] <aklein> or rather, they appear to support it (Node.baseURI is affected by it) but don't (URL completion/loading is unaffected)
  723. # [19:46] <annevk> Hixie: it's not really a problem, it's an opportunity to massively simplify base URL handling
  724. # [19:47] <Hixie> ah so by "the current HTML definition of baseURLs is...not good" you mean you want to change it, not that it's buggy
  725. # [19:47] <aklein> and avoid tree-walking to do URL handling
  726. # [19:47] <Hixie> ok
  727. # [19:47] <Ms2ger`> That would be nice
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  729. # [19:47] <Hixie> i'm fine with dropping xml:base, though xml:base does make web components work better
  730. # [19:47] <aklein> Hixie: sorry, there are bugs, xml:base is not the bug
  731. # [19:47] <Hixie> we'll need something if we don't have xml:base
  732. # [19:47] <Hixie> oh
  733. # [19:47] <Hixie> what are the bugs?
  734. # [19:48] <aklein> Hixie: I've been meaning to file one about <img>
  735. # [19:48] <Hixie> Ms2ger`: ping https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=24238
  736. # [19:48] <aklein> it reloads when affected by a base URL change
  737. # [19:48] <Ms2ger`> Oh dear
  738. # [19:48] <Hixie> aklein: it does? wow
  739. # [19:48] <aklein> Hixie: in Webkit/Blink/Gecko at least. really need to try some IEs.
  740. # [19:48] <Hixie> aklein: i intentionally made the spec not reload images in that case
  741. # [19:48] <Hixie> aklein: it would cause all kinds of hassle with pushState(), e.g.
  742. # [19:48] <Ms2ger`> Hixie, no strong opinion here
  743. # [19:49] <Hixie> Ms2ger`: should i wontfix then?
  744. # [19:49] <Ms2ger`> Hixie, if you prefer not-resolving, that's fine with me
  745. # [19:49] <aklein> Hixie: only sometimes
  746. # [19:49] <aklein> Hixie: when <img> switches documents it reloads
  747. # [19:49] * Ms2ger` isn't sure ping will happen anyway
  748. # [19:49] <aklein> not necessarily on pushState
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  750. # [19:49] <Hixie> aklein: oh when it switches documents, ok. that's easy to believe.
  751. # [19:49] <Hixie> aklein: that's not when changing base URL, that's when changing documents.
  752. # [19:50] <aklein> Hixie: speaking of web components, agreed that it would be nice to have something. that's what I was talking to annevk about above, see https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20976#c24
  753. # [19:50] <aklein> is there some changing documents hook in HTML I've missed?
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  756. # [19:51] <aklein> Hixie: err, https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20976#c20 is probably a better starting point, that was esprehn's last suggestion
  757. # [19:51] <Hixie> aklein: the html spec doesn't currently reload images crossing documents, no. please do file that http://whatwg.org/newbug
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  763. # [19:54] <Hixie> aklein: the scripts in these comments are expected to be running where? in the context of a component?
  764. # [19:54] <Hixie> aklein: i guess web components' documents aren't "live" documents, so they don't run script?
  765. # [19:55] <Hixie> aklein: what's the global scope of a script in a component?
  766. # [19:59] <aklein> Hixie: when you say "component" I think you may be combining two concepts, "imports" and "custom elements"
  767. # [19:59] <aklein> I realize that those were historically more intertwined :)
  768. # [19:59] <Hixie> i've no idea what either of those are, but ok
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  770. # [20:00] <Hixie> i just mean whatever it is that you use to create proprietary widgets using DOM and JS
  771. # [20:00] <aklein> I'd say that in your terms, the script in a component runs in the global scope of the hosting page
  772. # [20:00] <Hixie> wow
  773. # [20:00] <Hixie> ok
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  775. # [20:00] <Hixie> yeah, that'll give you all kinds of issues
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  777. # [20:00] <aklein> indeed
  778. # [20:00] <Hixie> why not the xbl approach of running the scripts in the binding document?
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  780. # [20:01] <aklein> I'd have to go look up xbl to answer that question well, dglazkov might have a better answer
  781. # [20:01] <aklein> the short answer is there is no other global at present
  782. # [20:01] <aklein> that is, none of the current web components specs involve additional global scopes
  783. # [20:01] <Hixie> right, but why not?
  784. # [20:01] <aklein> though they do involve additional documents
  785. # [20:01] <Hixie> seems like you'd want a global scope per resource defining widgets
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  788. # [20:02] <aklein> Hixie: there's a public-webapps thread about this somewhere
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  790. # [20:03] <aklein> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2013OctDec/0483.html
  791. # [20:03] <aklein> not sure there are actual answers there
  792. # [20:03] <aklein> but there's discussion
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  794. # [20:04] <Hixie> well that e-mail pretty much summarises my concern, yes :-)
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  796. # [20:05] <Hixie> looks like dglazkov's answer is that you can have a new scope using modules, or something
  797. # [20:05] <Hixie> so that it works even within just one doc
  798. # [20:05] <Hixie> which makes sense i guess
  799. # [20:05] <Hixie> but in that case, the problem you had earlier is easy
  800. # [20:05] <Hixie> you just make the modules be where you put the base URL scopes
  801. # [20:06] <Hixie> (presumably modules hook into the script settings object mechanism)
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  811. # [20:16] <Hixie> man, i hate it when headless computers start acting up and need rebooting
  812. # [20:16] <Hixie> such a pain
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  851. # [22:00] <TabAtkins> annevk-cloud: What are your thoughts on fetch()? Do you have sufficiently organized thoughts to write something down I can put into a spec? Maybe talk about this next week when you're here for ServiceWorker stuff?
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  880. # [22:39] <Hixie> so... why does inserting an audio element into another document do something to whether the audio is playing or not?
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  883. # [22:41] <jgraham> A better question might be "why do we have a model where moving things between documents isn't just a deep clone?"
  884. # [22:41] <jgraham> To which the answer is probably "legacy"
  885. # [22:42] <jgraham> So I think my answer to your question is "see /topic"
  886. # [22:44] <Hixie> why would moving things between docs be anything interesting at all?
  887. # [22:44] <Hixie> i don't understand what's going on here
  888. # [22:44] <Hixie> however, firefox's inability to play my test audio isn't helping
  889. # [22:44] <Hixie> what formats does firefox support?
  890. # [22:45] <Hixie> i've tried ogg, wave, and mp3
  891. # [22:47] <Hixie> oh ffs, it's mime types
  892. # [22:47] <Hixie> i hate mime types so much
  893. # [22:47] <jgraham> Hixie: Moving elements between documents is quite problematic in general because of the prototype chain
  894. # [22:47] <Hixie> so pointless
  895. # [22:48] <Hixie> jgraham: yeah the problem there is that we have this crazy idea of mutable prototypes and per-page prototypes
  896. # [22:48] <Hixie> ok, with the mime type set, wave works. ok.
  897. # [22:50] <aklein> Hixie: thanks for doing the experimentation, apologies for my laziness
  898. # [22:50] <aklein> the other one I've been wrestling with (and which needs more testing) is urls in CSS
  899. # [22:51] <Hixie> that one is conveniently not my problem :-)
  900. # [22:51] <Hixie> but yeah
  901. # [22:51] <Hixie> audio was easy to test because i can hear it
  902. # [22:51] <Hixie> now to test <img>...
  903. # [22:51] <Hixie> maybe i need a counter cgi that returns a different number each time or something
  904. # [22:52] <aklein> I would have posted a live dom viewer example for that if it had been easy...I just did it locally
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  906. # [22:54] <Hixie> hehe
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  920. # [23:25] <Hixie> aklein: firefox isn't doing anything when the img is inserted into another doc either: http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?saved=2758
  921. # [23:27] <Hixie> but if the resolved url is different, then it does
  922. # [23:27] <Hixie> interesting
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  926. # [23:31] <Hixie> anyone got IE around to test with the three tests in https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=24312 ?
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  928. # [23:36] <JonathanNeal> Hixie: still need someone to look?
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  930. # [23:39] <Hixie> JonathanNeal: yup
  931. # [23:45] <Hixie> is it me, or is textContent wrong for elements? http://dom.spec.whatwg.org/#dom-node-textcontent
  932. # [23:45] <Hixie> it says to replace the nodes, but i thought if the only child was a text node, it was preserved
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  934. # [23:48] <TabAtkins> We were just talking about this on blink-dev, and we think we want to change the spec to preserve the node in that case.
  935. # [23:49] <Hixie> k well i'll assume Top People are on it then
  936. # [23:50] <JonathanNeal> Hixie: unsure of how to follow the test, but I have IE up.
  937. # [23:50] <Hixie> JonathanNeal: ok, let me walk you through it
  938. # [23:50] <Hixie> JonathanNeal: http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/2755 - what audio plays?
  939. # [23:50] <Hixie> JonathanNeal: and what does it say in the log?
  940. # [23:51] <JonathanNeal> It actually says "Invalid Source" to me in IE11
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  942. # [23:52] <Hixie> ugh
  943. # [23:52] <Hixie> ok, let's ignore that.
  944. # [23:52] <Hixie> ok, next test. uh
  945. # [23:52] <Hixie> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/2758
  946. # [23:52] <Hixie> there should be two numbers in the log
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  948. # [23:52] <Hixie> what are they?
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  951. # [23:54] <JonathanNeal> checking
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  953. # [23:54] <JonathanNeal> the two numbers are 27 and 0
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  955. # [23:55] <Hixie> 0!
  956. # [23:55] <Hixie> interesting
  957. # [23:55] <Hixie> and in http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/2759 ?
  958. # [23:55] <Hixie> (should be two numbers again)
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  964. # [23:59] <JonathanNeal> just a moment
  965. # [23:59] <Hixie> no rush
  966. # Session Close: Fri Jan 17 00:00:00 2014

The end :)