/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2014-01-20 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Mon Jan 20 00:00:00 2014
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  10. # [00:57] <gsnedders> Ergh, do we have to change UTF-8 to utf-8? It's uppercase almost everywhere, and we do a case-insensitive match, so it's not like the normative form matters much — may as well pave-the-cowpath (and be consistent with earlier standards) and call it UTF-8.
  11. # [00:57] <Hixie> change where?
  12. # [00:57] <Hixie> i call it UTF-8
  13. # [00:57] <Hixie> in prose, at least
  14. # [00:57] <gsnedders> Hixie: Web Encodings
  15. # [00:57] <gsnedders> Or rather Encoding as it seems to now be called.
  16. # [00:57] <Hixie> like, change it within the spec? isn't that up to anne?
  17. # [00:58] * gsnedders wonders if <!doctype html><meta charset=UTF-8><title>t</title> is conforming
  18. # [00:58] <gsnedders> "Authors must use the utf-8 encoding and must use the "utf-8" label to identify it."
  19. # [00:59] <gsnedders> Hixie: From my reading of this, the normative name of the encoding is lowercase.
  20. # [00:59] <gsnedders> i.e., the encoding is called "utf-8" and not "UTF-8", so if you're calling it "UTF-8" you're doing it wrong
  21. # [01:00] <Hixie> gsnedders: i just define UTF-8 = utf-8 and move on with my life :-)
  22. # [01:00] <gsnedders> (As for that snippet, the label isn't per-se case-insensitive, so prima-facie <meta charset=UTF-8> is against that.)
  23. # [01:01] <gsnedders> (I also don't get what's wrong with <meta charset=utf8>)
  24. # [01:03] <gsnedders> Like, I'm perfectly fine with wanting to get rid of unicode-1-1-utf-8 as a label. But utf8 or utf-8 really doesn't make a damned bit of difference, and trying to force everyone to use one is likely just going to cause confusion.
  25. # [01:04] <gsnedders> annevk-cloud: ^^
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  27. # [01:18] <SimonSapin> gsnedders: The "get an encoding" (from a label) algorithm lower-cases the input before looking up
  28. # [01:19] <SimonSapin> is there anything that says authors should use the canonical "name" rather than any "label" ?
  29. # [01:20] <gsnedders> SimonSapin: Yes, that's getting an encoding from a label.
  30. # [01:20] <gsnedders> SimonSapin: That's not authors-must-use-this-label.
  31. # [01:20] <SimonSapin> is the latter a requirement?
  32. # [01:20] <gsnedders> "Authors must use the utf-8 encoding and must use the "utf-8" label to identify it."
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  34. # [01:21] <gsnedders> The label as defined is that literal string of characters. Nothing says you're allowed to use that ASCII case-insensitively. Nothing says you're allowed to use the "utf8" label.
  35. # [01:21] <SimonSapin> hum, ok
  36. # [01:22] <gsnedders> To me, at least, that's fucking stupid. It makes huge numbers of documents non-conforming for I'm-not-sure-what-good.
  37. # [01:22] <gsnedders> s/what-good/what good/
  38. # [01:22] <SimonSapin> agreed
  39. # [01:23] <gsnedders> Also the fact the encoding is now named "utf-8" when almost everywhere actually calls it "UTF-8" is a completely needless change.
  40. # [01:23] <SimonSapin> personally I just don’t care about being "conforming" to that kind of requirements, but meh
  41. # [01:26] <SimonSapin> data:text/html;charset=utf8,<script>document.write(document.characterSet)</script> is UTF-8 upper case in Gecko and Blink
  42. # [01:26] <gsnedders> Non-conforming!
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  45. # [01:37] * gsnedders starts writing JS and realizes how long it's been since he's written much JS to run in the browser
  46. # [01:37] * gsnedders has spent too long in JS shells :)
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  48. # [01:41] <gsnedders> Do data URIs in iframes load async?
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  57. # [01:58] <dekiss> Hixie here?
  58. # [01:58] <dekiss> you gave me to work on one bug but I am confused :S
  59. # [01:58] <dekiss> I don't really understand what I need to do
  60. # [01:59] <dekiss> should I come up with a way for how can websites like caniuse.com be connected to the html spec?
  61. # [01:59] <dekiss> for checking browser's implementation of certain features
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  75. # [02:16] <gsnedders> https://github.com/gsnedders/encoding-spec-names is a rough TC to check this
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  85. # [02:45] <dekiss> is it ok to place <a> on the same level as div?
  86. # [02:47] <dekiss> google.com has 28 errors
  87. # [02:48] <dekiss> wikipedia 14
  88. # [02:49] <dekiss> guys, can you depend on sites caniuse.com to officialy check what is the browsers implementation of certain features?
  89. # [02:49] <dekiss> I am not sure how serious is that
  90. # [02:50] <dekiss> I think the web lacks official "tool" for tracking browsers impementation of certain features
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  92. # [03:02] <Hixie> dekiss: yeah, the idea is to have some sort of mechanism whereby the html spec can have automatically updated annotations saying which parts are implemented and which aren't
  93. # [03:02] <Hixie> dekiss: i don't mind if we rely on caniuse.com, or something else
  94. # [03:02] <Hixie> or even merge many things together
  95. # [03:04] <dekiss> I think this will be very nice
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  97. # [03:04] <dekiss> oh I really think html lacks this so much and will be of much use
  98. # [03:05] <dekiss> Hixie but honestly I am not sure if it is good ieda to rely on some websites, I don't know who is behind those websites, if it is trsutable person-organization that it is ok I think
  99. # [03:10] <Hixie> dekiss: it's what web devs rely on already
  100. # [03:10] <Hixie> dekiss: if it turns out to be unreliable, we change it
  101. # [03:10] <Hixie> dekiss: better something than nothing
  102. # [03:10] <Hixie> dekiss: and better anything than what we have now
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  104. # [03:11] <dekiss> Hixie you are right on this
  105. # [03:16] <Domenic_> <!--"SHALL", "SHALL NOT",--> hmm
  106. # [03:16] <Domenic_> do we not like those?
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  111. # [03:34] <SimonSapin> Hixie: does HTML have a lot of ad-hoc syntaxes like this? http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/common-microsyntaxes.html#rules-for-parsing-dimension-values
  112. # [03:35] <SimonSapin> A Servo contributed was tempted to implement it with the CSS tokenizer… and I think it might be equivalent
  113. # [03:35] <SimonSapin> except for CSS comments
  114. # [03:36] <SimonSapin> So, would it be useful to you if CSS Syntax defined a "tokenize without comments" primitive, that other specs can use?
  115. # [03:36] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: ^
  116. # [03:37] <SimonSapin> (TabAtkins: didn’t SVG want this as well?)
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  119. # [03:48] <Hixie> Domenic_: it tends to make me use the passive voice, so i avoid it
  120. # [03:49] <Hixie> Domenic_: i had some difficulties with spec text i'd written that used shall
  121. # [03:49] <Hixie> Domenic_: so i stopped using it
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  132. # [04:21] <Itprotj> MikeSmith: Sorry, you were saying there was no documentation for the "Google-translate-customization" tag?
  133. # [04:26] <Itprotj> MikeSmith: If it helps this is the full tag I use <meta name="google-translate-customization" content="a940027e7f997750-6e3cf3faa4816ec1-g9f154a7bf834cf45-13" /> It provides a Google Translate box to choose different languages for the website
  134. # [04:28] <dekiss> are those custom meta tags part of the specification?
  135. # [04:29] <Itprotj> According to "http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/MetaExtensions" the tag is in the status of Proposal
  136. # [04:29] <dekiss> hmm let me see
  137. # [04:29] <Itprotj> Which makes me think it should be validating correctly
  138. # [04:31] <dekiss> all are proposal
  139. # [04:32] <dekiss> I am not sure if it is good idea custom meta tags to be added to the specification
  140. # [04:32] <dekiss> because if Google for example decide to change the meta tag, or imagine 5000 companies decide to change the tags
  141. # [04:33] <dekiss> it willo involve a lot of work to change the specification and there might be constant work
  142. # [04:33] <dekiss> to track custom meta tags changes
  143. # [04:33] <Itprotj> What would my options be then?
  144. # [04:34] <dekiss> how you mean
  145. # [04:34] <dekiss> well browser implement then unnoficially
  146. # [04:34] <dekiss> they are like semi official
  147. # [04:34] <dekiss> I mean widely suported it is publicly known, but officially not in the HTML spec
  148. # [04:35] <dekiss> I think it is ok for you to use anything that is out of the html specification, but you should be aware that not all browsers might support it
  149. # [04:39] <Itprotj> Okay it is just a concern that I would like to stay HTML5 validated whilst also keeping a Translate box for overseas viewers
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  151. # [04:47] <dekiss> I think that is good, I will try to make 100% valid website in the next few days
  152. # [04:47] <dekiss> however in the past I think I was inable to do so, because it was pretty much immposible for me to do some things which I wanted to make, without making the site not 100% valid
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  154. # [04:48] <dekiss> I really think there should be massive campaign to influence developers to drop support for old browsers and bad browsers
  155. # [04:49] <dekiss> this came to ridicilous level now
  156. # [04:49] <dekiss> it is not a way to go, I think
  157. # [04:49] <dekiss> ideally browsers makers should make the browsers to autoupdate
  158. # [04:50] <dekiss> also Microsoft including Internet Explorer in the Windows, which had many BIG mistakes it was so sad
  159. # [04:50] <dekiss> finally Internet Explorer 11 is ok I think, at least I hear so and my pages look ok on it
  160. # [04:51] * jorendorff is now known as jorendorff_away
  161. # [04:52] <dekiss> there should not be 1000 libraries to make this job easy to developers, this is not a way to go, it is slowing the internet progress. It should be done other way. Also I am against any libraries
  162. # [04:52] <dekiss> like jQuery
  163. # [04:52] <dekiss> recently I want a lot of developers who don't know Javascript or DOM but know jQuery
  164. # [04:52] <dekiss> heh
  165. # [04:52] <dekiss> not a way to go
  166. # [04:58] <dekiss> I don't want to be understood wrongly but I must say this, I think the guy who makes jQuery is really good programmer talented, but to dedicate life to something that is not the right way to do it I can't understand, I really think he should be involved in html, css, ecmascript development
  167. # [04:58] <dekiss> and other things that matter
  168. # [04:58] <dekiss> I can't work in something that I don't believe it is a good thing to do
  169. # [04:58] <dekiss> and will do world and people good - progress
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  181. # [05:29] <dekiss> I make this statements after I see 9 from 10 job posts on freelance websites are - Company offers position for Wordpress plugin fix developper
  182. # [05:29] <dekiss> :D
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  231. # [08:23] * Ms2ger should get foolip some chocolate too :)
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  234. # [08:24] <Ms2ger> <!DOCTYPE HTML> <script>document.write('<meta charset="ISO-8859-' + '2">')</script>
  235. # [08:24] <Ms2ger> Ugh.
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  237. # [08:26] <annevk-cloud> Where is that from?
  238. # [08:26] <Ms2ger> https://critic.hoppipolla.co.uk/r/592
  239. # [08:29] <annevk-cloud> I cannot access that if not signed into GitHub. Curious
  240. # [08:29] * Quits: Bass10 (Bass10@c-76-113-194-7.hsd1.mn.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  241. # [08:30] <annevk-cloud> Oh gsnedders, I recommend filing a bug rather than ranting on IRC. You might find it more relaxing ;)
  242. # [08:31] * Quits: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@193.190.253.150) (Read error: Operation timed out)
  243. # [08:31] * annevk-cloud wonders what foolip did
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  253. # [08:52] <foolip> annevk-cloud: not me!
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  260. # [08:57] <Ms2ger> annevk, reviews
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  262. # [08:58] <Ms2ger> wefo, I'm sure the spec explains what clearRect does: whatwg.org/html
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  274. # [09:11] <wefo> Not clearly.
  275. # [09:13] <TabAtkins> SimonSapin: SVG was going to see if they can just allow comments, and thus use the full CSS tokenizer. (They probably can.)
  276. # [09:13] <Ms2ger> TabAtkins, this is HTML, though
  277. # [09:14] <TabAtkins> SimonSapin: HTML *might* also be able to accept comments, but I'd also be fine with defining a tokenizer mode that disallowed comments.
  278. # [09:14] <TabAtkins> (Or rather, that emitted the / and * as delims.)
  279. # [09:15] <TabAtkins> Ms2ger: Right, but I'm unsure if there'd actually be any compat requiring /**/ comments to invalidate the attribute or whatever.
  280. # [09:16] <Ms2ger> Otoh, it seems like a lot of spec/impl/test work that would use time that could be better spent elsewhere
  281. # [09:17] <TabAtkins> GPHemsley: Yes, they *should* increment the list-item counter. That said, wk/b do *not* implement that counter. We don't actually use CSS Counters at all for ul/ol, because they're too slow.
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  284. # [09:18] <TabAtkins> Ms2ger: Right, that's certainly true, and it would be easy on my side to avoid it by defining a comment-free mode. I suspect that with that change, switching to using the CSS tokenizer rather than specialized microsyntaxes would be very little change, if any. (But I'd have to actually look at the spec text, which I haven't done yet.)
  285. # [09:18] * Joins: marcosc (~marcosc@bl12-180-10.dsl.telepac.pt)
  286. # [09:19] <Ms2ger> Well, implementing a comment-free mode is still Work(tm)
  287. # [09:20] <Ms2ger> That'd reduce testing time and possible web compat, but increase QA time to verify that nothing actually changed
  288. # [09:22] <Ms2ger> Anyway :)
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  290. # [09:23] * Ms2ger wonders if Operians will come to fosdem
  291. # [09:25] <Ms2ger> TabAtkins, "if i have 200x100 <img>; if i set size if img to 400; this case what is the height?; 200? 100?"
  292. # [09:25] <Ms2ger> Looks like it's 200, but do you have a spec pointer? :)
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  294. # [09:34] <MikeSmith> jgraham: doing the last bit of that PR now
  295. # [09:37] <Ms2ger> TabAtkins, I think http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-images/#default-sizing
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  298. # [09:47] <MikeSmith> jgraham: done
  299. # [09:48] <MikeSmith> you want me to merge it?
  300. # [09:48] * Krinkle is now known as Krinkle|detached
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  304. # [09:55] <MikeSmith> marcosc: curious about what's "background actor stuff"
  305. # [09:56] <marcosc> MikeSmith: more context?
  306. # [09:56] <marcosc> not sure what you mean
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  309. # [10:02] <jgraham> MikeSmith: Sure and thanks
  310. # [10:04] <marcosc> MikeSmith: oh, you mean in the roadmap
  311. # [10:05] * marcosc had to google "background actor stuff"
  312. # [10:05] <marcosc> :)
  313. # [10:06] <marcosc> MikeSmith: we are going to write a blog post to explain why we are doing what we are doing, I think. There is a Moz workweek happening next week, so I'm sure a lot that stuff will get clarified and updated.
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  316. # [10:06] <Ms2ger> Ah, the jst work week
  317. # [10:07] <marcosc> yep
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  319. # [10:08] <annevk-cloud> On my way to Heathrow for that and some informal service worker thingie this week
  320. # [10:09] <Ms2ger> Good flight
  321. # [10:09] <annevk-cloud> To prevent jet lag I am already tired
  322. # [10:09] <annevk-cloud> Thanks Ms2ger
  323. # [10:11] <MikeSmith> marcosc: ok
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  331. # [10:25] <zcorpan> "Tip for admins: instead of sub1.example.com use sandbox.sub1.example.com, which will limit impact of the cookie bomb to .sub1.example.com zone." is incorrect, isn't it? http://homakov.blogspot.fi/2014/01/cookie-bomb-or-lets-break-internet.html
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  336. # [10:37] <annevk-cloud> Yeah, we use public suffix for Effective TLD determination
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  366. # [12:22] <Lachy_> ffffffn9#\M:gI
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  370. # [12:23] <marcosc> looks like Lachy_ passed out on his keyboard ... again
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  379. # [12:48] <MikeSmith> he typed the hex code for black there first
  380. # [12:51] <MikeSmith> or maybe he was writing a self description and he only got as far as the f in "foxy"
  381. # [12:51] <Lachy> WTF? How did that happen?
  382. # [12:54] <MikeSmith> wait it seems like he is actually typing an autobiography
  383. # [12:54] <jgraham> Lachy: Either you say on your keyboard (in which case we won't ask), or you are hurredly changing your bank password ;)
  384. # [12:55] <jgraham> *sat
  385. # [12:57] <Lachy> It's my login password for my computer. Not sure how it got entered into here. My computer seemed was frozen at the time I tried entering it.
  386. # [12:57] <Ms2ger> Or you blame the cat
  387. # [12:57] <Lachy> at least, part of it is
  388. # [13:00] * Joins: felipeduardo (~felipedua@r253-pw-corumbatai.ibys.com.br)
  389. # [13:00] <MikeSmith> I think most security experts recommend against using IRC to log in to your computer
  390. # [13:01] <jgraham> It turns out that most "security experts" are NSA shills, so you should probably do the opposite of what those guys say
  391. # [13:02] <Ms2ger> Oh, okay
  392. # [13:02] <Ms2ger> hunter2
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  394. # [13:04] <darobin_> rofl
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  406. # [13:15] <gsnedders> annevk-cloud: Nah, ranting on IRC is more relaxing. Less productive, but more relatxing.
  407. # [13:15] <gsnedders> annevk-cloud: I will file a bug, however :)
  408. # [13:16] * Quits: hasather (~hasather@guest.schibsted.no) (Remote host closed the connection)
  409. # [13:16] <wefo> jgraham: It depends on what advice they give.
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  411. # [13:16] <wefo> If they give the advice to use the "cloud" in any manner, they are NSA shills.
  412. # [13:16] <wefo> If they give the advice to smack every cellphone you see, they are not.
  413. # [13:17] <wefo> Just the thought that my computer might have shipped with custom hardware/firmware makes me angry.
  414. # [13:18] <wefo> It's so dishonest.
  415. # [13:18] <wefo> If at least it was snooping on plaintext communication over the network.
  416. # [13:18] <wefo> Then they would just be cunts.
  417. # [13:19] <wefo> Now they are below subhuman.
  418. # [13:20] <jgraham> wefo: You might accidentially have taken something I said seriously
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  422. # [13:22] <wefo> Yeah, silly me for not laughing everything away.
  423. # [13:23] <wefo> I guess I meant to say: "ya lol dat b dope ur a tinfoil hat lulz u fink ur so importent lol r u high dawg"
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  425. # [13:23] <Ms2ger> Good good
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  427. # [13:26] * darobin_ is now known as darobin
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  435. # [13:38] <MikeSmith> somebody forgot to ring the bell for the 4001st w-p-t commit
  436. # [13:39] * Ms2ger rings
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  448. # [14:19] <zcorpan> heycam|away: pls fix https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=22646 kthxbye
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  450. # [14:21] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: how is ffffff black?
  451. # [14:21] <MikeSmith> because it is?
  452. # [14:22] <MikeSmith> either that or it's white
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  454. # [14:22] <zcorpan> it's white in css at least
  455. # [14:22] <MikeSmith> clearly I meant white
  456. # [14:22] <MikeSmith> read between the lines, man
  457. # [14:23] <MikeSmith> that's what the NSA pays you for!!
  458. # [14:23] <jgraham> I can see that MikeSmith will get himself killed at the next Zebra crossing
  459. # [14:23] <zcorpan> yeah but i also get paid for acting like i don't
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  462. # [14:28] <xvoom> hi everybody
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  467. # [14:45] * Ms2ger wonders why Google thinks the title of http://hoppipolla.co.uk/410/results.html is "Web Platform Tests Results - Mozilla XPath Documentation"
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  471. # [14:51] <zcorpan> oops, looks like i missed to git add a helper file to resolve-url
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  479. # [14:59] <zcorpan> https://critic.hoppipolla.co.uk/r/597
  480. # [15:01] <jgraham> Hmm, so Ubuntu decided I wanted to open http URLs in Thunderbird
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  482. # [15:01] <jgraham> That didn't work so well
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  497. # [15:15] <jgraham> zcorpan: What was the final word on snffing video?
  498. # [15:15] <zcorpan> jgraham: hah
  499. # [15:15] <jgraham> :(
  500. # [15:15] <zcorpan> there is no spoon
  501. # [15:16] <jgraham> So you have to get the Content-Type header right to ensure that a supporting browser will play the video at the moment?
  502. # [15:16] <jgraham> (also: I did your review)
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  506. # [15:32] <zcorpan> right
  507. # [15:32] <zcorpan> yep, addressed it. now you have MORE lines to review. might be recursive
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  511. # [15:40] <jgraham> zcorpan: Not recursive at all :) Merged
  512. # [15:40] <zcorpan> great, thanks!
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  563. # [18:05] <jgraham> Dear spotify: When your "discover" feature shows that you have a good grasp of the kinds of music I like, why are you wasting prime screen estate advertising playlists featuring Milley Cirus and One Direction at me? Also, why are you advertising at all when I am paying you money not to show me adverts (other than via the aforementioned "Discover" feature, which is actually useful and so doesn't count).
  564. # [18:12] <gsnedders> jgraham: Because how can one not love One Direction and Milley Cirus? They are obviously the best thing ever.
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  600. # [19:23] <JonathanNeal> SteveF, http://www.jonathantneal.com/blog/introducing-subhead/
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  613. # [19:57] <TabAtkins> jgraham: Because spotify has learned the lessons of cable TV, which is that people forgot that they're paying you and accept advertising anyway?
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  616. # [20:01] <SteveF> JonathanNeal: cool will read
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  755. # Session Close: Tue Jan 21 00:00:00 2014

The end :)