/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2014-01-22 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Jan 22 00:00:00 2014
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  6. # [00:07] <tbsaunde> Hixie: oh, so I think another think that helped confuse me is this at the end of the scrollPathIntoView() description " "Inform the user", as used in this section, could mean calling a system accessibility API, which would notify assistive technologies such as magnification tools. To properly drive magnification based on a focus change,
  7. # [00:07] <tbsaunde> a system accessibility API driving a screen magnifier needs the bounds for the newly focused object. The methods above are intended to enable this by allowing the user agent to report the bounding box of the path used
  8. # [00:07] <tbsaunde> to render the focus ring as the bounds of the element element passed as an argument, if that element is focused, and the bounding box of the area to which the user agent is scrolling as the bounding box of the current
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  10. # [00:08] <tbsaunde> selection." which since the inform ... isn't explained for the draw*FocusRing() methods so I assumed it applied to both
  11. # [00:08] <tbsaunde> that said it seems wrong for the scrollIntoView method too
  12. # [00:09] <Hixie> that text is kinda confusing, yeah
  13. # [00:09] <Hixie> that'll teach me to have non-normative text...
  14. # [00:09] <Hixie> every time i try to explain things, people rely more on the non-normative text than the normative text. d'oh.
  15. # [00:10] <tbsaunde> especially since all the accessibility APIs are stateful here
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  17. # [00:10] <Hixie> yeah
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  20. # [00:11] <Hixie> it might be that the right solution is just to make these methods not tell the ATs anything
  21. # [00:11] <tbsaunde> what did you actually mean? I can't see what happens on screen but I'd assume the focus ring *is* the notification that that thing is focused
  22. # [00:11] <Hixie> and tell authors to use addHitRegion() only
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  24. # [00:11] <Hixie> tbsaunde: what i originally meant was that you'd call drawSystemFocusRing() with a focused element, and the magnification would move, end of story
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  27. # [00:13] <cabanier> Hixie: in our last exchange I stated this:
  28. # [00:13] <cabanier> > Informing the user is an imperative action, not an indirect action
  29. # [00:13] <cabanier> > involving caching state over multiple frames.
  30. # [00:13] <cabanier> If that is the case, we should drop focus ring support. There's no point to just draw rings.
  31. # [00:13] <tbsaunde> Hixie: yeah, still thinking, but it seemslike the right thing to do is have the fall back content / hit regions set up and then have draw focus ring not tell the AT anything
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  33. # [00:13] <tbsaunde> (other than fire a focus event on the accessible that is getting focused of course
  34. # [00:14] <Hixie> cabanier: right (though of course we still want to draw focus rings in general, separate from ATs)
  35. # [00:14] <cabanier> Hixie: why?
  36. # [00:15] <cabanier> Hixie: the API as currently implemented by chrome is quite useful according to the a11y people
  37. # [00:15] <Hixie> tbsaunde: yeah. the problem there is that most authors aren't going to bother to use addHitRegion(), i'd guess... i wonder how many authors would use draw*FocusRing() but not addHitRegion(), maybe the number of people who want system focus rings is so low that actually all the people who'd do it half right with focus rings will just do it entirely right with hit regions, dunno.
  38. # [00:15] <cabanier> Hixie: It is a bit wonky
  39. # [00:15] <Hixie> cabanier: why what?
  40. # [00:15] <cabanier> why would you still want an API for focus rings if all it does is draw focus
  41. # [00:16] <Hixie> cabanier: i've not seen anyone say that the API is actually useful, do you have a pointer for where that's discussed?
  42. # [00:16] <Hixie> cabanier: so you can draw the focus ring?
  43. # [00:16] <Hixie> cabanier: how else would you draw one?
  44. # [00:16] <cabanier> Hixie: the author can draw it. There's nothing magical going on
  45. # [00:17] <tbsaunde> Hixie: yeah, that's a valid concern, but I'm not really sure how we make draw*FocusRing() work usefully
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  47. # [00:17] <Hixie> cabanier: how do you draw a native-looking focus ring? i don't follow.
  48. # [00:17] <Hixie> tbsaunde: yeah
  49. # [00:17] <cabanier> Hixie: I agree that the there's a high barrier for addHitRegion so it won't see much adoption
  50. # [00:17] <Hixie> cabanier: why do you think the barrier is high?
  51. # [00:18] <cabanier> Hixie: because the author would have to make sure that the region DOM is in sync with what's on the page
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  53. # [00:19] <Hixie> cabanier: do you think the barrier to using draw*FocusRing() is significantly lower? (notwithstanding the fact that that API doesn't actually work well for ATs)
  54. # [00:19] <Hixie> cabanier: it seems like it'd be nearly the same code
  55. # [00:21] <cabanier> Hixie: you'd have to keep track of the id and add/remove regions
  56. # [00:21] <cabanier> Hixie: with draw*Ring, that all happens behind the scenes
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  58. # [00:22] <Hixie> cabanier: no, the regions get removed automatically with addHitRegion()
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  62. # [00:23] <tbsaunde> Hixie: I wonder if we can make hit regions simpler? why can't we nuke the label / control / role stuff, and just always have them point at a element that is a child (or inderct child) of the <canvas> ?
  63. # [00:24] <Hixie> cabanier: you just have to call x.addHitRegion({ control: element }); whenever you draw the path for the control
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  65. # [00:24] <Hixie> tbsaunde: simpler for whom? implementors or authors?
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  67. # [00:25] <Hixie> cabanier: (if you remove a control entirely, but are calling clearRect() regularly, then you don't even have to worry about the control being removed, unlike the mess that would result from the focus ring stuff being repurposed in this way)
  68. # [00:25] <tbsaunde> I was thinking it would be simpler for authors since it would just be one consistant way of doing things
  69. # [00:25] <Hixie> tbsaunde: well, there's several kinds of authors. Some will have a backing DOM, but others won't (what would the backing DOM be for a game?)
  70. # [00:26] <Hixie> tbsaunde: as specced, it lets you put labels all over the canvas, without having to worry about having <span>s for each such label
  71. # [00:26] <Hixie> tbsaunde: think e.g. of a chart, how would you design a functional backing DOM for it?
  72. # [00:26] <tbsaunde> not really clear other than a bunch of divs, but what would be the a11y story there anyway?
  73. # [00:26] <Hixie> well it depends on the user
  74. # [00:27] <Hixie> but e.g. an entirely blind users on a tablet could use tactile feedback to feel their way around the canvas, with addHitRegion() roles and labels
  75. # [00:27] <tbsaunde> that seems reasonable
  76. # [00:27] <Hixie> a user with low sight but enough sight to see the image, who just need magnification, could jump from label to label and see that zoomed in
  77. # [00:27] <Hixie> a user who cannot read but can rely on speech synthesis could walk around the canvas using a mouse, and have the labels read out
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  79. # [00:28] <tbsaunde> on the other hand since you only get a couple types of form control or (label, role) your kind of restricted
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  81. # [00:29] <Hixie> what kind of stuff are you imagining that can't be done?
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  83. # [00:29] <Hixie> tbsaunde: (btw, i changed that paragraph you quoted to hopefully be less confusing)
  84. # [00:29] <tbsaunde> well, you wouldn't get accessible states, so if you wanted to have editable text I'm not sure how you'd mark it as editable
  85. # [00:30] <Hixie> as far as editable text goes, i refer you to http://www.whatwg.org/html#best-practices
  86. # [00:30] <Hixie> uh http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#best-practices
  87. # [00:32] <Hixie> ah, http://www.whatwg.org/html#best-practices does work
  88. # [00:32] <tbsaunde> Hixie: fair, I could probably think of other stuff but its kind of corner casey
  89. # [00:36] <Hixie> i mean, there's always things that can't be done, but that's true regardless of whether you're using canvas or not.
  90. # [00:36] <Hixie> if there's things that can't be done that could easily be supported, we can always improve the API.
  91. # [00:36] <tbsaunde> Hixie: so, as an implementor of this virtual dom tree how do I handle order of children? / is there a way to insert a child before another?
  92. # [00:36] <Hixie> you mean the addHitRegion() one?
  93. # [00:36] <Hixie> it's unordered. or rather, it's ordered by visual order.
  94. # [00:38] <tbsaunde> yeah, visual order makes sense
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  341. # Session Close: Wed Jan 22 07:45:33 2014
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  344. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  348. # [08:14] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ & http://logbot.glob.com.au/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
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  358. # [16:31] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ & http://logbot.glob.com.au/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  359. # [16:31] * Set by smaug____!~chatzilla@GGZYYCCCXVIII.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi on Wed Mar 21 17:14:24
  360. # [16:32] <gsnedders> GPHemsley: So my intuition says that "must", "might", and "may" are scarcely used in Scots.
  361. # [16:32] <krijnh> (Back up!)
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  363. # [16:37] <gsnedders> GPHemsley: Quick look through corpus shows "must" pretty much only being used in "Standard English" (however you wish to define that :)).
  364. # [16:38] <Ms2ger> Her Majesty's English
  365. # [16:38] <gsnedders> Ms2ger: Not clear that isn't something different again. :)
  366. # [16:39] <Ms2ger> Not if you define it that way :)
  367. # [16:40] <gsnedders> Ms2ger: Consider the royal "we" and similar
  368. # [16:40] <Ms2ger> Well, we disagree with you on that one
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  378. # [17:09] <Ms2ger> Hmm, http://web-platform.test:8000//2dcontext/shadows/canvas_shadows_002.htm doesn't work
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  382. # [17:12] <jgraham> Ms2ger: In which way?
  383. # [17:12] <jgraham> The //?
  384. # [17:12] <Ms2ger> Yep
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  386. # [17:13] <jgraham> Well if that's supposed to work then patches welcome, I guess?
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  388. # [17:13] <Ms2ger> Don't think I care enough :)
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  398. # [17:34] <Ms2ger> jgraham, okay, this one is fun
  399. # [17:35] <Ms2ger> Clicking a link in http://web-platform.test:8000/foo gives a 404
  400. # [17:35] <Ms2ger> The same link in http://web-platform.test:8000/foo/ works
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  409. # [17:40] <jgraham> Ms2ger: Yeah, that sounds quite plausible.
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  431. # [18:18] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
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  433. # [18:18] <jwalden> 'afternoon, dglazkov
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  435. # [18:19] <Ms2ger> Hi dglazkov!
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  437. # [18:19] <Ms2ger> <insert daily question>
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  439. # [18:20] <dglazkov> ah yes!
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  448. # [18:30] <foolip> Hixie: it would be nice if you could decide or say what you need to decide on https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=19619 since I intent to update Blink's implementation of the RSA to match spec soonish
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  513. # [20:19] <Hixie> foolip: last paragraph of https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=19619#c20 is still my position -- if browsers drop it, then i'll remove it from the spec, but at the moment everyone implements it, so keeping it is the logical action for me
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  552. # [21:15] <Hixie> ok, so, what have we learnt from the rel wiki and the meta name wiki
  553. # [21:15] <Hixie> we have learnt that:
  554. # [21:15] <Hixie> 1. the long tail of needs is very long
  555. # [21:15] <Hixie> 2. there are many duplicate ideas
  556. # [21:15] <Hixie> 3. many authors have no idea what these really are for, but they are very sure they want to have them and don't want validators to complain about it
  557. # [21:16] <Hixie> 4. specifications rarely exist for these things
  558. # [21:17] <Hixie> 5. if we make certain values non-conforming, we'd better have a damn convincing message to give the validators to help authors pick the right alternative
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  560. # [21:17] <Hixie> 6. even major vendors like microsoft do crazy things, as in <meta name="msapplication-square70x70logo" content="images/tinylogo.png">
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  570. # [21:34] <tantek> Hixie you forgot:
  571. # [21:34] <tantek> 7. Nearly anything is better than a registry maintained by IETF.
  572. # [21:35] <Hixie> yeah, the list wasn't suposed to be comprehensive
  573. # [21:35] <Hixie> contributions from everyone are very welcome!
  574. # [21:36] <Hixie> ideally i think we should find some solution that is more nuanced and less burdensome than a registry
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  576. # [21:36] <tantek> Hixie, the previous solution was no registry at all - any user values were allowed for rel attrs and meta names
  577. # [21:36] <Hixie> i have a vision of a two-tier system, where anyone can freely add values or add notes to existing values, and after the value has been in the list for a while, someone examines it and decides whether it should go in the spec to be recommended, or go in a list of things validators should reject, or go in a list of things that are proprietary solutions
  578. # [21:37] <tantek> (conforming to the syntax of course)
  579. # [21:37] <Hixie> well, html4's conformance approach is suboptimal in general, i'm not sure what that tells us
  580. # [21:37] <tantek> btw - that's basically what happens with rel values in the microformats wiki
  581. # [21:37] <tantek> people add them, and once in a while someone more experienced goes through and cleans them up and/or does work to promote them (write a better spec etc.)
  582. # [21:38] <Hixie> it's similar, yeah
  583. # [21:38] <tantek> but for that to work you need some semblance of a community that cares about them, which #microformats does about rel values
  584. # [21:38] <tantek> however I don't know if there is any community that actually *cares* about meta name values
  585. # [21:38] <tantek> other than "don't reject me validator" type caring
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  587. # [21:42] <JonathanNeal> "Nearly anything is better than a registry maintained by IETF" +1
  588. # [21:42] <Hixie> i envision a world where validators categorise values into five groups: non-conforming unknown (i.e. never registered), conforming interoperable good practice (i.e. in the HTML spec or wherever, with a full spec), provisionally conforming (i.e. registered but not examined), conforming proprietary (i.e. registered, deemed not useful for wide use, not implemented by widely used UAs, but used in private and not harmful), and non-conforming (registered, has better
  589. # [21:43] <Hixie> alternatives, has a pre-canned message for validators to spit out)
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  591. # [21:43] <arunranga> annevk, are you still around?
  592. # [21:43] <Hixie> validators would have an API that lets them take values from non-conforming unknown to provisionally conforming without requiring that people register in a wiki or whatever
  593. # [21:44] * Ms2ger wonders how much value there is in making validators complain about any of them
  594. # [21:46] <JonathanNeal> Hixie: what are you hoping to solve by organizing these meta properties?
  595. # [21:46] <Hixie> JonathanNeal: a valid question. my main purpose here is making validators useful for authors who use these features, to enable them to catch typos, bad practices, and the like (same as the usual purpose for validators)
  596. # [21:47] <Hixie> JonathanNeal: e.g. it would be good to help authors avoid wasting time putting in <meta name=keywords>
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  600. # [21:53] <JonathanNeal> I have observed meta names change with the wind as they're "created" by things like open graph, Twitter cards, or browser feature detection. It would be difficult to have any proactive specification.
  601. # [21:54] * jorendorff_away is now known as jorendorff
  602. # [21:54] <JonathanNeal> browser feature detection err I mean ... vendor specific configurations? viewport, touch icon, etc.
  603. # [21:54] <Hixie> JonathanNeal: right, hence the reactive specification in the proposal above
  604. # [21:55] * jorendorff is now known as jorendorff_away
  605. # [21:56] <JonathanNeal> I wish I could better describe how this feels out of scope for HTML. It feels a bit like conforming data attributes or class names.
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  607. # [21:57] <JonathanNeal> Because I have no data that suggests developers write better or faster when a validator returns the kind of information you're proposing.
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  610. # [21:58] <Hixie> JonathanNeal: it seems intuitive, though i admit that it might be misleading intuition, that if an author spends time doing something that will have no effect (like giving meta name=keywords), it is a net negative compred to not doing that.
  611. # [21:58] <JonathanNeal> And in my own experience, I've only ever wanted a "don't reject me" validator.
  612. # [21:59] * Krinkle is now known as Krinkle|detached
  613. # [21:59] <Hixie> what's a "don't reject me" validator?
  614. # [21:59] <tantek> Hixie, what we have today.
  615. # [21:59] <Hixie> how is that different than what i'm proposing?
  616. # [21:59] <tantek> people registering things just so the validator doesn't complain ("reject me")
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  618. # [22:00] <Hixie> do people want a validator that says <b></i> is valid?
  619. # [22:01] <JonathanNeal> Hixie: If I'm remembering correctly, I had issues with the validator whining after I first implemented twitter cards on my site.
  620. # [22:01] <Hixie> right. what i'm proposing is that validators have a button so you just say "yep, that's valid, don't complain again"
  621. # [22:01] <JonathanNeal> I added it to some wiki, but that didn't immediately resolve the validator - I want to say that someone was manually copying over the values from the wiki. Is that right?
  622. # [22:01] <Hixie> today? probably
  623. # [22:02] <Hixie> (or manual during the build process)
  624. # [22:02] <Hixie> s/manual/automatic/
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  630. # [22:07] <tantek> JonathanNeal - typically a bug must be filed to get new meta or rel values added to the validator.
  631. # [22:08] <tantek> adding to the wiki page may eventually (years?) cause a change in the validator but certainly not immediately
  632. # [22:09] <tantek> note the paragraph before the ToC here: http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/MetaExtensions
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  634. # [22:09] <tantek> Hixie, I will note that there seems to be a lot more proprietary and/or redundant meta name values than rel values.
  635. # [22:09] <Hixie> yeah
  636. # [22:10] * jonlee_ is now known as jonlee_|afk
  637. # [22:10] <tantek> I feel like "synonyms" doesn't capture enough for the validator to say something actionable.
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  640. # [22:11] <tantek> I.e. we need a way to indicate that a particular value is proprietary, and which (if any) "standard" value to use instead.
  641. # [22:12] <tantek> or even use some other method altogether
  642. # [22:12] <tantek> (rather than stuffing ever more into metacrap)
  643. # [22:13] <Hixie> right, that was the "validator message" in the proposal above
  644. # [22:13] <tantek> makes sense
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  647. # [22:19] <Hixie> MikeSmith, hsivonen: you around?
  648. # [22:21] <annevk> arunranga: still around
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  655. # [22:32] <Hixie> hsivonen, MikeSmith: if you're around... i'm curious to know your thoughts on the proposal above.
  656. # [22:33] <Hixie> hsivonen, MikeSmith: assuming you like the general direction, i'm also interested in more concretely whether you would prefer an HTTP-based request/response mechanism to register values and poll for updated registrations, or whether you'd prefer a long-lived TCP connection for that kind of thing.
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  690. # [23:07] <annevk> I suspect HTTP-based
  691. # [23:07] <annevk> so it can be part of a build process
  692. # [23:09] <annevk> Hixie: if you're going to set up a registry, please allow for multiple registries
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  713. # [23:46] <Hixie> annevk: sounds like an interesting idea. can you elaborate?
  714. # [23:46] <annevk> Hixie: e.g. rel / meta / URL schemes
  715. # [23:46] <annevk> might all benefit
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  717. # [23:49] <Hixie> oh you mean multiple registries for different things, not multiple registries for the same thing
  718. # [23:49] <Hixie> yeah, if i write any code for this i'll definitely make it reusable, for sure
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  720. # [23:53] <annevk> oh heh
  721. # [23:53] * jonlee_ is now known as jonlee_|afk
  722. # [23:54] <annevk> yeah, didn't really want to propose competing registries maintained centrally :-)
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  724. # [23:55] <Hixie> my main questions initially are whether the whole model seems sane; what API the validators would prefer; and what kind of interface we should expose for administration.
  725. # [23:55] <Hixie> that will then decide the implementation approach.
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  730. # Session Close: Thu Jan 23 00:00:00 2014

The end :)