/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2014-01-24 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Jan 24 00:00:00 2014
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  42. # [00:56] <Hixie> i did a google search for [deprecated metadata vocabularies]
  43. # [00:57] <Hixie> and one of the top hits was a link to http://metadataregistry.org/conceptprop/show/id/13721.html
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  45. # [00:57] <Hixie> which as far as i can tell is the registration page for a property in a vocabulary that describes vocabularies, to label a part of a vocabulary as deprecated.
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  47. # [00:58] <Hixie> what the fuck. are you doing.
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  55. # [01:06] <jgraham> Hixie: Can you register the registration vocabulary as deprecated in the registration vocabulary?
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  60. # [01:16] <Hixie> jgraham: i don't see why not...
  61. # [01:24] <TabAtkins> Hixie: It's only valid *before* you actually do it. Once you write it, it becomes invalid (due to you using a deprecated vocab).
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  66. # [01:28] <annevk> value objects <3
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  72. # [01:33] <annevk> Domenic_: what's the value from a snapshot?
  73. # [01:34] * annevk is not a fan of people copying his work and creating mass confusion
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  75. # [01:35] <Domenic_> annevk: patent protection presumably
  76. # [01:35] <annevk> A snapshot doesn't give you that
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  78. # [01:38] <Domenic_> If taken to rec it does right?
  79. # [01:39] <gsnedders> Only REC gives you that.
  80. # [01:40] <gsnedders> The timeline in which you must withhold any patent grants is based upon the first WD with anything the patent pertains to.
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  102. # [02:19] <TabAtkins> annevk: Yus.
  103. # [02:19] <TabAtkins> annevk: (re: value objects)
  104. # [02:19] <TabAtkins> I *really* want to write "el.css.width = 5px;" and have it magically work.
  105. # [02:20] <TabAtkins> (120px).pt == 90pt !
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  114. # [02:31] <heycam> TabAtkins, will value types get SVG out of the predicament of SVGAnimatedLengths etc. without having to boil the ocean like in my proposal?
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  120. # [02:35] <TabAtkins> heycam: I don't think so. Value types are immutable objects that you can overload operators for.
  121. # [02:36] <TabAtkins> And define suffixes for, so "let x = 5px;" is equivalent to "let x = CSS.px(5);".
  122. # [02:36] <heycam> ok
  123. # [02:36] <heycam> how much sense would it be, if we do boil the ocean, make SVGRectElement.x be a CSS length value type rather than a DOMString then?
  124. # [02:36] <TabAtkins> It'll make for a *really convenient* CSSOM API, as you can just do "el.css.width = 5px;"
  125. # [02:36] <TabAtkins> It would make a lot of sense.
  126. # [02:37] <TabAtkins> But I'm expecting value types to take 1-2 years.
  127. # [02:37] <TabAtkins> So, shrug.
  128. # [02:37] <heycam> hmm
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  130. # [02:38] <TabAtkins> annevk: If you make a URLValue class, I can use that directly in CSS rather than inventing a CSSURLValue object.
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  175. # [03:41] <annevk> TabAtkins: yeah I guess that would make sense
  176. # [03:41] <annevk> TabAtkins: although I also think that having it as a string is okay or is there some ambiguity with that?
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  182. # [03:55] <Hixie> 1-2 years! wow, that'd actually be pretty quick for something like that
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  187. # [04:07] <TabAtkins> annevk-cloud: Nah, I need to distinguish them in the data model from actual strings.
  188. # [04:07] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Yeah, but the push for 64-bit ints has had years to mature, and this is riding on the back of that demand.
  189. # [04:09] <Hixie> cool
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  270. # [09:37] <Ms2ger> I'm pretty sure the date on http://christianheilmann.com/2014/01/23/endangered-species-of-the-web-the-image/ is wrong
  271. # [09:37] <Ms2ger> It sounds more like a post from 1994
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  275. # [09:58] <macfreek> Good day! I like an account for wiki.whatwg.org, and as noted on top of the pages, I have to ask here for an account.
  276. # [09:58] <macfreek> My preferred username would be macfreek
  277. # [09:59] <macfreek> I like to exploit my neurotic behaviour and fix the markup error on the page MetaExtensions (there is a missing row break before the entry on revisit-after)
  278. # [10:01] <macfreek> Hmm, no-one here?
  279. # [10:01] <macfreek> I'll drop a mail at admin@wiki.whatwg.org.
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  285. # [10:10] <jgraham> dglazkov: Thanks!
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  292. # [10:28] <MikeSmith> IRC protip you may want to try hanging out for longer than 5 minutes if you're asking for help and nobody responds
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  345. # [12:14] <hsivonen> Hmm. Does @theFakeW3C write for @w3cmemes, too?
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  398. # [14:40] <jgraham> mathiasbynens: Nice work!
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  412. # [14:41] <zcorpan> indeed :-)
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  448. # Session Close: Fri Jan 24 15:21:06 2014
  449. #
  450. # Session Start: Fri Jan 24 15:21:06 2014
  451. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  452. # [15:21] * Disconnected
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  454. #
  455. # Session Start: Fri Jan 24 15:53:02 2014
  456. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  457. # [15:53] * Now talking in #whatwg
  458. # [15:53] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ & http://logbot.glob.com.au/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
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  608. # [19:33] <gsnedders> So, the tokenizer is provably live-lock free. Which is good to know. But probably could've been sufficently shown with a lot less work. :)
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  611. # [19:49] <TabAtkins> Oh good lord, i18n issue spam on CSS Text.
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  613. # [19:52] <annevk> Domenic_: what do you think about https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=24367 ?
  614. # [19:52] <annevk> Domenic_: always copy or keep a list of objects
  615. # [19:54] <Domenic_> annevk: what does "with an existing "url object" association" mean? why would they need to be associated?
  616. # [19:54] <Domenic_> oh i see why
  617. # [19:54] <Domenic_> so that changing them changes the URL
  618. # [19:54] <annevk> Domenic_: yeah, syncing
  619. # [19:54] <annevk> sync syncing, even
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  621. # [19:57] <Domenic_> annevk: blah, no great answers I feel
  622. # [19:57] <Domenic_> maybe most pure would be url.searchParams.resetFrom(otherSearchParams)
  623. # [19:57] <Domenic_> and not allowing url.searchParams = ...
  624. # [19:58] <Domenic_> creating a copy has the usual `url.searchParams = x; url.searchParams !== x` problem
  625. # [19:59] <annevk> well at least url.searchParams === url.searchParams
  626. # [19:59] <annevk> I thought that was the invariant
  627. # [20:00] <annevk> what's the downside with always assigning?
  628. # [20:00] <annevk> and keeping a list of URL objects?
  629. # [20:00] <Domenic_> hmm
  630. # [20:02] <Domenic_> That actually works
  631. # [20:02] <Domenic_> I see no downside
  632. # [20:02] <Domenic_> I like it better than copying
  633. # [20:03] <Domenic_> as for invariants, well, you try to get as many of them as you can :)
  634. # [20:03] <Domenic_> as if it were just a normal data property not a getter/setter
  635. # [20:03] <Domenic_> x.y === x.y is the most obvious though, agreed.
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  645. # [20:14] <annevk> I'm getting a 503 on GMail
  646. # [20:15] <annevk> I don't think I ever had Gmail down
  647. # [20:15] <annevk> Now it's a 500
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  650. # [20:21] <annevk> http://www.google.com/appsstatus#hl=en&v=issue&ts=1390636799000&sid=1&iid=8201b96db60ea3ccc26c53a4487c5492
  651. # [20:21] <MikeSmith> annevk: https://twitter.com/oscargodson/status/426795522083401728
  652. # [20:22] <annevk> Well, it does happen less than missile strikes
  653. # [20:23] <annevk> Not sure that makes it more newsworthy though
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  704. # [22:05] <Hixie> MikeSmith: see e-mail to whatwg list from me just now
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  710. # [22:19] <annevk> Domenic_: with streams, there's some kind of indication of new data being available right?
  711. # [22:19] <annevk> Domenic_: so you could implement progress events based on the content-length header plus listeners on the stream
  712. # [22:20] <Domenic_> annevk: yeah, you could definitely implement progress events on top of streams
  713. # [22:20] <Domenic_> as you read data, emit a progress event
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  716. # [22:22] <annevk> Domenic_: so the idea is to push streams through TC39?
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  719. # [22:22] <Domenic_> annevk: probably proceed the same way as with promises: proceed in web space, but try for TC39 space if there's interest and they are fast enough. Might be time for one of those supplemental spec things like i18n used
  720. # [22:23] <Domenic_> but, write the algorithms in TC39 spec style to smooth the process, and e.g. don't use DOMException
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  723. # [22:24] <annevk> seems fair
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  725. # [22:26] <Hixie> btw the e-mail i mentioned above to MikeSmith is actually something everyone might be interested in
  726. # [22:26] <Hixie> it's a discussion about what to do with registries, starting with <meta name>'s
  727. # [22:26] <TabAtkins> It was definitely an interesting email!
  728. # [22:26] <Domenic_> Hixie: it is a pretty interesting email. Sounds like a lot of work though!
  729. # [22:26] <Hixie> what would be a lot of work?
  730. # [22:27] <Hixie> actually writing the server side would be pretty easy, i imagine. the validator side would be more work.
  731. # [22:27] <Hixie> dunno how much work
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  737. # [22:35] <annevk> It's on my todo list
  738. # [22:36] <Domenic_> I feel like the validator needs some advertisement on the main whatwg.org page
  739. # [22:37] <Domenic_> And maybe some rebranding. (X)HTML5 Living Validator is kind of weird
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  743. # [22:38] <annevk> hsivonen: ^^
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  745. # [22:39] <Hixie> Domenic_: i can update the http://www.whatwg.org/ page -- what should i remove to replace with the validator link?
  746. # [22:39] <Hixie> (there's several things on that page commented out, i rotate the boxes around every year or so)
  747. # [22:41] <Domenic_> Forums seems worth killing...
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  750. # [22:41] <Ms2ger> Heh, forums
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  752. # [22:47] <Hixie> ok reload, i moved stuff around for 2014
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  755. # [22:48] <Hixie> yeah i dunno how many people load that page per se
  756. # [22:48] <Hixie> probably like 2 a month
  757. # [22:48] <Hixie> there's already a link to validators at the top of the HTML spec itself though
  758. # [22:49] <annevk> mailing list is close to 10 years http://lists.whatwg.org/htdig.cgi/whatwg-whatwg.org/2004-April/000000.html
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  760. # [22:50] <Domenic_> Hixie: Nice new layout! FAQ gets the prominence it deserves...
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  762. # [22:52] <Hixie> foolip: map, the usage of <source media> is stupendously low. i haven't seen numbers that low, like, ever.
  763. # [22:52] <Hixie> foolip: even features that don't _exist_ get more usage than that.!
  764. # [22:53] <Hixie> s/map/man/
  765. # [22:53] <Hixie> Domenic_: yeah, like i said, i rotate things around :-)
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  782. # [23:25] <annevk> https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BexMPGSCUAAeJzi.png:large
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  784. # [23:34] <annevk> Domenic_: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=24367 got some more noise
  785. # [23:35] <annevk> Domenic_: I guess keep references to multiple owners is still the best
  786. # [23:35] <annevk> I did not mean noise as opposed to signal btw, just that more comments were added
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  792. # [23:48] <Domenic_> annevk: commented and thus now subscribed.
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  797. # [23:51] * Hixie remembers how he hates bash scripting
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  800. # [23:52] <TabAtkins> Hixie: So... don't?
  801. # [23:52] <Hixie> yeah
  802. # [23:53] <Hixie> it always starts as a trivial script that just runs three programs or whatever
  803. # [23:53] <Domenic_> i'd suggest shelljs but IIRC Hixie isn't a huge JS person either :P
  804. # [23:53] <Hixie> and then i add some piping... and then months later i need an if statement... next thing i know i'm trying to work out obscure [ syntax errors deep inside nested ``s
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  808. # [23:54] <TabAtkins> The moment you advance beyond piping, switch to Python.
  809. # [23:54] <TabAtkins> Or Perl, or whatever you like.
  810. # [23:57] * Quits: bzalasky_ (~bzalasky@c-67-188-211-46.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  811. # [23:58] <Hixie> in principle i agree, but when you have a long sequence of system calls and just want to add one conditional, it's not an obvious choice.
  812. # [23:58] <TabAtkins> Yeah, so you have to set a Schelling Fence.
  813. # [23:58] <TabAtkins> Any single addition to the bash script doesn't seem like it's bad enough to be worth recoding.
  814. # [23:58] <TabAtkins> And then before you know it you're in hell.
  815. # [23:59] <TabAtkins> So just set an arbitrary reasonable point beforehand, and stick to it.
  816. # Session Close: Sat Jan 25 00:00:01 2014

The end :)