/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2014-01-25 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sat Jan 25 00:00:02 2014
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:01] <Hixie> i think i'm past that point
  4. # [00:01] <Hixie> looooong past that point
  5. # [00:02] <TabAtkins> So rewrite. ^_^
  6. # [00:02] <Hixie> that point occured when i was a kid, learning that there were these tools that would do what i told them
  7. # [00:02] <Hixie> the bash vs not bash thing is just one point on the slope :-P
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  9. # [00:05] <Hixie> anyway. i think a better way of approaching this particular problem isn't a schelling fence
  10. # [00:05] <Hixie> it's a deadline for how long i can afford to spend on fixing the problem in bash before i switch to another language
  11. # [00:06] <Hixie> so if i think i could rewrite it in, say, perl, in 1 hour, then maybe i would allow 30 minutes of bash debugging and then just switch over
  12. # [00:06] <Hixie> that way i don't waste an hour fixing something that took 1 minute
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  14. # [00:12] <TabAtkins> *This* time. And next time you have a problem that's horrible to debug in bash, you'll make the same estimate, and probably come to the same conclusion.
  15. # [00:12] <TabAtkins> With the end result that you keep spending too much time painfully debugging bash, rather than eating the cost of a rewrite into a better language once.
  16. # [00:12] <TabAtkins> Thus, the Schelling Fence.
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  20. # [00:21] <Hixie> TabAtkins: nah. that's only true if the code changes from being mainly running other scripts, to being mainly logic.
  21. # [00:21] <Hixie> TabAtkins: while it's mainly running other scripts and piping stuff around, bash is better than other languages.
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  26. # [00:29] <jgraham> Hixie: https://pypi.python.org/pypi/plumbum
  27. # [00:29] <jgraham> Perhaps
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  29. # [00:29] <Hixie> relying on non-default-install runtimes is a non-starter for me
  30. # [00:30] <jgraham> …OK
  31. # [00:30] <Hixie> i end up spending way too much time reinstalling libraries and so on
  32. # [00:30] <Hixie> i've set up a schelling fence around it. :-)
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  34. # [00:31] <jgraham> Generally package management isn't a huge issue
  35. # [00:31] <jgraham> I find
  36. # [00:32] <jgraham> I mean this isn't 1998 where you have to compile stuff from source all the time
  37. # [00:32] <jgraham> Unless you are on OSX I guess
  38. # [00:32] <jgraham> Which is just awful
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  45. # [00:38] <Hixie> jgraham: it becomes way more of a pain when you're trying to not do anything as root (including installing packages)
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  48. # [00:40] <jgraham> Hixie: I just virtualenv all python stuff
  49. # [00:40] <Hixie> yeah if i did more python stuff i should probably get that figured out
  50. # [00:40] * Hixie isn't a huge python fan so hasn't bothered to learn it much
  51. # [00:41] <Hixie> sorry if it sounds like i'm full of stop energy today :-)
  52. # [00:41] <jgraham> If I had a bunch of bash-like stuff in python (I don't) I would just have a venv in my home directory that would be activated in my .bash_login
  53. # [00:41] <Hixie> a lot of this is automated stuff, but yeah
  54. # [00:41] <Hixie> (cron jobs, cgi scripts, etc)
  55. # [00:41] <jgraham> Then external packages would just be "pip install foo" and no need for root
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  60. # [00:57] <SimonSapin> Hixie: is the multipage version generated asynchronously? I get the "This specification has been updated." message, even after reloading
  61. # [00:59] <SimonSapin> jgraham: you could add venv/bin to $PATH without "activating" it
  62. # [01:00] <Hixie> SimonSapin: yes, very asynchronously. but it shouldn't give you that error, because it has a separate idea of what version is current, iirc...
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  64. # [01:03] <Hixie> woah
  65. # [01:03] <Hixie> weird
  66. # [01:03] <Hixie> what's going on here
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  68. # [01:05] <Hixie> oh aaaaanneeee
  69. # [01:07] <Hixie> annevk: so uh
  70. # [01:07] <Hixie> annevk: for some reason the multipage splitter is splitting an old version?
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  75. # [01:23] <annevk> hmm
  76. # [01:23] <annevk> maybe stuff got bogus again
  77. # [01:25] <annevk> svn: Checksum mismatch while updating 'source'; expected: '7d276e7c114c0dff2072062753a37225', actual: '296d8957f3f9fce92805f2bd67155ca0'
  78. # [01:25] <annevk> svn: Delta source ended unexpectedly
  79. # [01:29] <annevk> Hixie: I also get
  80. # [01:29] <Hixie> annevk: it might be worth putting in some defensive code in case i call you twice in parallel? maybe that broke it?
  81. # [01:29] <annevk> warning: can't find target for #CSSGC
  82. # [01:29] <annevk> warning: can't find target for #CSSWM
  83. # [01:29] <Hixie> those are fixed on my side
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  89. # [01:34] <annevk> Fixed using http://stackoverflow.com/questions/10352934/svn-checksum-mismatch-while-updating
  90. # [01:34] <annevk> I think it's all good now
  91. # [01:34] <Hixie> cool, thanks
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  103. # [02:18] <a-ja> Hixie: ping
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  128. # [03:15] <Hixie> a-ja: pong
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  172. # [05:52] <MikeSmith> Hi Hixie
  173. # [05:52] <MikeSmith> will take a look at the e-mail about the registry stuff today
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  190. # [06:57] <MikeSmith> Hixie: haven't read the message about the registry yet but as far as the complexity, from the valiator side at least we there's no complexity needed as far as the set of data
  191. # [06:57] <MikeSmith> because the only thing the validator needs to consume is the list of valid names, and that's it
  192. # [06:59] <MikeSmith> whatever other data that people people add as part of registering a name, the validator doesn't need to see or do anything with
  193. # [07:01] <MikeSmith> so as far as I can see all we need exposed to us for the validator side is a space-separated list of the names
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  195. # [07:03] <MikeSmith> no point in even having them as a JSON document even, because it would just be overkill since all the validator code would need to do is take the character stream with the names and split it up on the spaces
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  203. # [08:09] <foolip> Hixie: yeah, the usage is shockingly low, and the intent to remove seems to have its required LGTMs, so here I go...
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  229. # [09:56] <Ms2ger> foolip, what are you removing?
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  240. # [10:38] <jgraham> SimonSapin: The point would be to make libraries in the virtualenv importable in random scripts, not just to make things in the venv/bin directory run (which I don't think they would without the venv being active anyway)
  241. # [10:50] <Ms2ger> jgraham, feel like reviewing? :)
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  260. # [12:19] <Ms2ger> jgraham, r? https://github.com/w3c/testtwf-website/pull/211
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  265. # [12:46] <MikeSmith> protip the help manage critic e-mail filtering: go into https://critic.hoppipolla.co.uk/config and add a "[critic]" or something prefix to all the email.subjectLine.* params
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  267. # [12:49] * Ms2ger waves at zcorpan
  268. # [12:50] * zcorpan is not here
  269. # [12:50] <Ms2ger> Didn't mean to imply you were
  270. # [12:51] <Ms2ger> Will you be around for testtwf?
  271. # [12:55] <zcorpan> no
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  280. # [13:47] * Ms2ger really needs a victim for FileAPI reviews
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  283. # [14:10] <MikeSmith> "As usual, I agree with everything Simon said."
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  293. # [14:58] <Ms2ger> Which Simon?
  294. # [15:03] <MikeSmith> the best Simon
  295. # [15:04] <annevk-cloud> Hixie: registry proposal looks good to me
  296. # [15:04] <MikeSmith> https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/forum/#!msg/blink-dev/5sWUMC_d8Tg/gnxjyGTenvwJ
  297. # [15:05] <annevk-cloud> MikeSmith: would you not want JSON or some such for the data associated with meta names?
  298. # [15:05] <MikeSmith> annevk-cloud: because I will only use the names
  299. # [15:05] <MikeSmith> that's all we are using now
  300. # [15:06] <MikeSmith> and I have not plans to implement any of the other checking and reporting that Hixie is proposing
  301. # [15:06] <annevk-cloud> Hixie had some interesting suggestions as to how you could do more
  302. # [15:06] <annevk-cloud> I see
  303. # [15:06] <MikeSmith> right
  304. # [15:07] <MikeSmith> yeah I would be happy to add any of that if somebody else wants to provide a patch
  305. # [15:08] <MikeSmith> but I'm not convinced there's any problem that needs solving here, other than the very simple case of helping people catch unregistered/misspelled names
  306. # [15:09] <MikeSmith> and the problem of the latency between when people register new names and when Henri or me manage to get them added to the validator
  307. # [15:09] <MikeSmith> the only problem I've really had is I don't want to have to write code to scrape the wiki
  308. # [15:10] <MikeSmith> so I sure don't want to instead write even 10 times more code on the validator side to consume the rest of the registration data
  309. # [15:11] <MikeSmith> so all I want is a very simple API for retrieving just the list of registered names
  310. # [15:13] <MikeSmith> and as far as I can see the majority of the registered names are just junk that no (or almost no) existing applications actually consume
  311. # [15:14] <MikeSmith> so wI really have to wonder who are we really helping if we add yet more baroqueness around validator support for this feature
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  334. # [16:17] <Ms2ger> If the element is mutable, the element's activation behavior is to do nothing.
  335. # [16:17] <Ms2ger> If the element is not mutable, it has no activation behavior.
  336. # [16:17] * Ms2ger wonders what the difference is
  337. # [16:20] <Ms2ger> jgraham, want to sign off my changes in https://critic.hoppipolla.co.uk/r/642?
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  367. # [17:55] <MikeSmith> Ms2ger: are the scripts that generate the canvas tests now working as expected again? can we close https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/issues/215 ?
  368. # [17:55] <MikeSmith> Ms2ger: nm
  369. # [17:55] <MikeSmith> plh was asking me about the same thing
  370. # [17:55] <MikeSmith> I see you replied already
  371. # [17:56] <Ms2ger> He was?
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  373. # [17:57] <MikeSmith> oh wait
  374. # [17:57] <MikeSmith> different issue
  375. # [17:57] <MikeSmith> I was thinking he asked you on #testing but I see now that was about #105
  376. # [17:57] * Quits: gavinc (~gavin@barad-dur.carothers.name) (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
  377. # [17:57] <MikeSmith> ok so can we close https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/issues/215 ?
  378. # [17:58] <Ms2ger> Yep
  379. # [17:58] * Ms2ger does that
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  381. # [18:02] <MikeSmith> thanks
  382. # [18:18] <Ms2ger> annevk-cloud, any reason not to put the TextEncoder/Decoder tests into w-p-t rather than https://code.google.com/p/stringencoding?
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  388. # [18:40] <Hixie> MikeSmith: the proposal isn't gonna work if you only implement one tenth of it :-)
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  394. # [18:59] <MikeSmith> Hixie: I'll reply to the message when I have more time but basically the only existing problem that I can so far agree is in need of solving is the part about having an actual API to expose the name values so that we can have the validator use that instead of us needing to hardcode the names in the validator sources
  395. # [19:00] <MikeSmith> I'm not opposed to the other parts of the proposal if somebody were to care enough to spend time implementing them
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  400. # [19:11] <a-ja> MikeSmith: newly-allowed ARIA values being added to validator?
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  404. # [19:12] <a-ja> (8409 and 8412 in tracker)
  405. # [19:12] <MikeSmith> a-ja: I think we already have them in the validator
  406. # [19:12] <MikeSmith> if not please files bugs
  407. # [19:13] <a-ja> oh cool
  408. # [19:16] <Hixie> MikeSmith: makes sense
  409. # [19:16] <Hixie> MikeSmith: if the only thing we do is have a formal way to update validators, though, without e.g. the registration system, or the advice paragraphs on obsolete but known values, then we can build a much simpler system
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  412. # [19:18] <a-ja> Hixie: see my message 4 or 5 days ago re tracker 8409?....bad? data-x values for group
  413. # [19:19] <zewt> grr @ python and its silly unhashable dicts
  414. # [19:19] <Hixie> a-ja: message where?
  415. # [19:20] <a-ja> <code data-x="attr-aria-role-directory">group</code>,
  416. # [19:20] <a-ja> 2 occurrences
  417. # [19:20] <Hixie> isn't that fixed already?
  418. # [19:20] <Hixie> i think i fixed it when you first mentioned it
  419. # [19:21] <a-ja> maybe locally?
  420. # [19:21] <a-ja> just hadn't seen another checkin changing it
  421. # [19:21] <Hixie> i find no occurrences of /role-directory">group/ in the spec
  422. # [19:21] <Hixie> i probably fixed it in some other checkin
  423. # [19:21] <a-ja> k...cool
  424. # [19:21] <Hixie> i don't bother with dedicated checkins for minor stuff like that, i usually fix it in passing while i'm doing a bigger thing
  425. # [19:22] <Hixie> (thanks for noticing, btw)
  426. # [19:22] <Hixie> ok, gotta go, bbiab
  427. # [19:22] <Hixie> (noticing the typo, i mean.)
  428. # [19:22] <Ms2ger> http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker?from=8409&to=8410
  429. # [19:22] <a-ja> btw...just saw un-prefixed border-box land in moz inbound
  430. # [19:23] <a-ja> (10yo bug)
  431. # [19:23] <a-ja> Ms2ger: that'd be rework of your patch
  432. # [19:24] <Ms2ger> Yep
  433. # [19:24] <Ms2ger> It even landed with my name on it :)
  434. # [19:24] <a-ja> noticed that :)
  435. # [19:25] <a-ja> Ms2ger: now uplift that sucker!
  436. # [19:25] <a-ja> if possible
  437. # [19:26] <Ms2ger> It's taken ten years, it can wait 6 more weeks :)
  438. # [19:26] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@50-0-164-83.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net) (Quit: tantek)
  439. # [19:26] * a-ja know it's likely too late in cycle
  440. # [19:27] <a-ja> i'm just tired of it polluting my stylesheets
  441. # [19:28] <Ms2ger> Yeah, uplift is Monday after next, and I wouldn't be surprised by some breakage
  442. # [19:40] <Ms2ger> foolip, how about Window.captureEvents?
  443. # [19:42] <a-ja> Ms2ger: fyi, just submitted feedback to caniuse.com
  444. # [19:42] <Ms2ger> Thanks :)
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  456. # [20:05] <satazor> Hello guys, I'm a developer of the recently released demo of http://baboom.com which is a new music service. We are using the new WebAudio API to provide FLAC playback, though we are having a few issues with it, and hopefully some of you guys can enlighten me
  457. # [20:06] * Joins: jacobolus (~jacobolus@70-36-196-50.dsl.static.sonic.net)
  458. # [20:07] <satazor> we are decoding FLAC files and using createScriptProcessor to fill raw pcm audio data, but the fact that the refill callback is on the UI thread has a major issue, which is that when browser is doing some heavy stuff, the audio data does not called in time, and that causes audio glitches
  459. # [20:07] <MikeSmith> satazor: that API isn't discussed here so much. I'm not sure who here is very familiar with it
  460. # [20:07] <MikeSmith> maybe roc
  461. # [20:08] <satazor> roc isn't here, or is under other username?
  462. # [20:09] <MikeSmith> satazor: no he'd be using that nick
  463. # [20:10] <satazor> I see, anyone else that could give me an hand?
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  465. # [20:12] <MikeSmith> satazor: not that I can think of
  466. # [20:12] <MikeSmith> other options are posting to http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-audio/
  467. # [20:12] <MikeSmith> or to https://github.com/WebAudio/web-audio-api/issues
  468. # [20:13] <MikeSmith> which I realize aren't real-time discussion but I don't think the audio people are around on IRC much
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  470. # [20:17] <MikeSmith> satazor: you could try #audio on irc.w3.org
  471. # [20:17] <satazor> alright thanks for all these resources
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  496. # [21:48] <annevk-cloud> Ms2ger: ask jsbell
  497. # [21:48] <Ms2ger> !summon jsbell
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  536. # Session Close: Sun Jan 26 00:00:00 2014

The end :)