/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2014-01-28 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue Jan 28 00:00:00 2014
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  4. # [00:01] <GPHemsley> Sorry for slacking on the wiki username requests everyone (Hixie).
  5. # [00:01] <Hixie> heh, i'm slacking too man
  6. # [00:01] <Hixie> though, see thread on whatwg@
  7. # [00:02] <Hixie> where i try to kill the main need :-)
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  16. # [00:11] <GPHemsley> I generally approve that proposal
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  21. # [00:17] <Hixie> GPHemsley: yeah, need to get mike and henri on board though
  22. # [00:18] <GPHemsley> mm
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  30. # [00:26] <Hixie> man, there's a lot of "require"s in the HTML spec
  31. # [00:26] <Hixie> 268 "required"
  32. # [00:26] <Hixie> auditing that is gonna be a pain
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  36. # [00:36] <annevk> Domenic_: is there a list of use cases for subclassing promises?
  37. # [00:38] * astearns la5t call
  38. # [00:39] <astearns> bah, wrong window
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  100. # [01:45] <heycam> Hixie, no there's no need to put [Exposed] on the ancestors of a global interface
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  102. # [01:45] <heycam> Hixie, I should write something about "implements" and [Exposed], though, that's not handled currently
  103. # [01:45] <heycam> Hixie, though I do handle partial interfaces
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  105. # [01:46] <heycam> Hixie, if [Exposed] is on a [NoInterfaceObject], then it should be just like if you used a partial interface with [Exposed] on it
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  107. # [01:47] <heycam> or maybe it should be on the implements statement, as you say
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  189. # [04:02] <othermaciej> annevk-cloud: is there a test suite anywhere for your url spec?
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  193. # [04:07] <Domenic_> annevk-cloud: not written down. CancellablePromise is the most prominent.
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  197. # [04:13] <MikeSmith> othermaciej: https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/tree/master/url
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  199. # [04:18] <MikeSmith> othermaciej: and served at http://w3c-test.org/web-platform-tests/master/url/a-element.html
  200. # [04:24] <othermaciej> MikeSmith: thanks!
  201. # [04:24] <MikeSmith> cheers
  202. # [04:25] <othermaciej> I'm about to implement the URL interface, maybe I can tweak the A element tests to apply to URL
  203. # [04:26] <othermaciej> I wonder if any of these tests check mutation of URL components?
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  206. # [04:28] <MikeSmith> othermaciej: I think they do not
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  211. # [04:38] <Streusel> LOGIN Streusel 1234
  212. # [04:38] <Streusel> whoops
  213. # [04:38] <Streusel> awh well
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  233. # [05:16] <Fernandos> hi
  234. # [05:20] <Fernandos> Can <section>, <article> and <aside> be a parent of <main> and is that meaningful (semantic)? <main class="row"> <aside>my-sidebar</aside><section>my-widescreen-section</section><article>my-content</article></main>
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  236. # [05:27] <SimonSapin> annevk-cloud: 1024, you bytes for encoding detection?
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  253. # [06:21] <Domenic_> Fernandos: that shows them being a child of main, not a parent.
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  298. # [08:39] <SteveF> Fernandos: see http://html5doctor.com/the-main-element/
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  302. # [08:52] * Ms2ger wonders why some people call hsivonen "Henry"
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  304. # [08:57] * MikeSmith wonders why some people call hsivonen "Onry"
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  309. # [09:17] <TabAtkins> Ms2ger: Because "Henri" is a rare spelling in America?
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  318. # [09:21] <othermaciej> "Onry" is how "Henri" is pronounced in French, with English speakers have probably heard more often than presumably the Finnish version
  319. # [09:25] <zcorpan> Ms2ger: how would https://critic.hoppipolla.co.uk/r/56 be done with testharness-in-workers support?
  320. # [09:25] <zcorpan> othermaciej: URL interface probably needs a different set of tests
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  322. # [09:26] <zcorpan> othermaciej: that testsuite is primarily about parsing/resolving
  323. # [09:27] <othermaciej> yeah, I can see that
  324. # [09:27] <othermaciej> will try to make my own
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  326. # [09:27] <MikeSmith> othermaciej: yeah I was just being sportive. Having some sport with the name. Like the first time plh told me about Hungry Mother in Cambridge and I was searching google maps for "Angry Mother" to find the location
  327. # [09:28] <zcorpan> you get 5 bounty points for making a web-platform-tests pull request :-)
  328. # [09:29] <MikeSmith> we need proper webidlharness.js-based tests for the URL interface I guess
  329. # [09:29] <hsivonen> I once almost missed a telecon that involved the organizer calling me and asking if I was [American approximation of French pronunciation of Henri]
  330. # [09:30] <hsivonen> OTOH, in Starbucks du Louvre, I said my name was Henri (pronounce the French way) and the American kid working at Starbucks in France wrote "Harry" on the cup
  331. # [09:30] <hsivonen> can't win
  332. # [09:30] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: yeah, but that's not enough
  333. # [09:30] <Ms2ger> zcorpan, 10 for reviewing one? :):
  334. # [09:30] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: hah
  335. # [09:31] <zcorpan> Ms2ger: sure
  336. # [09:32] * Ms2ger looks how https://critic.hoppipolla.co.uk/r/56 works
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  338. # [09:33] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: well we need that at least. though it wouldn't be very satisfying to run unless Gecko already supports the interface
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  341. # [09:33] * zcorpan gets his shield while Ms2ger discovers how horrible that code is
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  343. # [09:34] <Ms2ger> Heh
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  345. # [09:34] <Ms2ger> You've got your shield now? :)
  346. # [09:34] <zcorpan> hold on... yep ok
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  349. # [09:35] <Ms2ger> You're testing postMessage, so I don't see how it would work with writing only one side
  350. # [09:36] <zcorpan> right
  351. # [09:36] <Ms2ger> So "like this"
  352. # [09:37] <hsivonen> Ms2ger: FWIW, in English, I introduce myself the way "Henry" is pronounced in English
  353. # [09:37] <zcorpan> Ms2ger: ok
  354. # [09:38] <Ms2ger> hsivonen, now I wonder if I've been mispronouncing Henry, Henri, or both :)
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  357. # [09:42] <zcorpan> Ms2ger: i was thinking about introducing a way to do more assertions of a test in a worker. but maybe it'd be clearer to have two separate tests for the two contexts. dunno, but it would be nice to be able to use real assertions somehow
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  359. # [09:44] <Ms2ger> So making steps on one test in both contexts? That sounds somewhat painful
  360. # [09:46] * Ms2ger will think about it some more
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  363. # [09:52] <hsivonen> Oh great. The SVG WG has introduced a new camel-case element that's not in the HTML parsing spec: feDropShadow
  364. # [09:53] <Ms2ger> Hey, you could be dealing with the geolocation wg
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  366. # [09:53] <hsivonen> Ms2ger: is geolocation still active?
  367. # [09:54] <Ms2ger> Apparently "no, fuck your comments"
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  372. # [10:05] <zcorpan> are javascript RegExp .sticky and .unicode implemented?
  373. # [10:06] <zcorpan> hsivonen: they promised they wouldn't do that iirc
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  387. # [10:25] <hsivonen> SimonSapin: thanks for https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/csswg/rev/8dd698785f16
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  399. # [10:47] <hsivonen> how long until this gets attributed to the WHATWG: http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Internet_Encrypted_Media_Extensions ?
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  409. # [11:12] <zcorpan> BREAKING NEWS: WHATWG PUTS ITS WEIGHT BEHIND DRM AND HIXIE EATS KITTENS
  410. # [11:13] <hsivonen> http://dev.w3.org/Graphics-FX/modules/filters/publish/SVGFilter.html says to look at https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/FXTF/raw-file/tip/filters/publish/Filters.html which gives an error
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  412. # [11:15] * hsivonen finds https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/FXTF/raw-file/e1ae5deb9fa8/filters/index.html
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  415. # [11:29] <darobin> hsivonen: the answer is, not long, not long at all... https://twitter.com/johnfoliot/status/428039862097559552
  416. # [11:30] <Ms2ger> An unhelpful comment from John Foliot? Count me surprised.
  417. # [11:32] <hsivonen> At least JF is right about that the suggestion on the wiki page being misguided.
  418. # [11:35] <zcorpan> SimonSapin: hsivonen: wait, why is the @charset change good? won't the label fail to match if it contains whitespace anyway?
  419. # [11:37] <hsivonen> maybe the spec has changed in other ways, since I last read it
  420. # [11:37] * hsivonen looks
  421. # [11:38] <zcorpan> hmm http://encoding.spec.whatwg.org/#concept-encoding-get does trim whitespace. wonder why
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  423. # [11:39] <hsivonen> zcorpan: since when has the spec constrained the values of XX to between 0x23 and 0x7E?
  424. # [11:39] <hsivonen> and yeah, 19 bytes is much better than 1024
  425. # [11:39] <zcorpan> dunno
  426. # [11:39] <hsivonen> despite Gecko using 1024 now
  427. # [11:40] <hsivonen> or Gecko using 1024 last time I looked
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  429. # [11:42] <zcorpan> annevk-cloud: see above
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  432. # [11:44] <jgraham> FWIW annevk-cloud has taken to using a pseudonym when in situations that casually require a name (e.g. ordering food) in the UK
  433. # [11:45] * Ms2ger wonders which
  434. # [11:46] <zcorpan> hsivonen: s/19/31/
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  436. # [11:51] <zcorpan> http://www.behindthename.com/names/extra.php?terms=anne&extra=s&gender=both
  437. # [11:52] <jgraham> zcorpan: Not "Amy"
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  439. # [11:55] <zcorpan> oh the url didn't update when i changed the filter. i meant to filter for male english names
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  458. # [13:01] <hsivonen> zcorpan: do you have a reference to whatever the SVG WG agreed to regarding camelCasing?
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  460. # [13:01] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: zcorpan: so about the validator behavior for text/html documents with an HTML4 or XHTML1, I would like to flip the default behavior such that we no longer do doctype sniffing and validate them against the HTML4 or XHTML1 schema but instead just validate them as HTML5 (i.e., as html5.validator.nu does)
  461. # [13:02] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: WFM
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  464. # [13:06] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: Ok so my next question would be, as far as the UI, I don't think we need an option for "Do doctype sniffing for text/html" (or however it might be worded). But if you think we need one I can add it.a
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  469. # [13:12] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: you mean getting rid of Preset: None and making Preset: default to HTML5?
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  472. # [13:19] <zcorpan> hsivonen: not at hand, so possibly i'm making it up, but i could try to dig a bit
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  474. # [13:22] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: no I just mean not adding any new option in the UI to let users revert to the old (currently existing) doctype-sniffing behavior (after we remove it)
  475. # [13:23] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: so users would lose the option to even opt into the doctype sniffing if they wanted it
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  477. # [13:27] <MikeSmith> darobin: the studios should put Foliot on retainer
  478. # [13:28] <darobin> MikeSmith: have you seen Promised Land (that flick about fracking with Matt Damon)?
  479. # [13:28] <darobin> because I reckon the studios might just have Fred Andrews on retainer
  480. # [13:31] <MikeSmith> I think it's the otehr way around, that the EFF is paying Foliot to make the pro-EME argument look as absurd as possible. Kind of like, Man, If this is guy is p
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  482. # [13:31] <MikeSmith> *if this guys is for it, it must really be a bad idea
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  486. # [13:34] <MikeSmith> and as far as http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Internet_Encrypted_Media_Extensions, is it crazy or completely wrong?
  487. # [13:34] <MikeSmith> I'm asking
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  489. # [13:34] <MikeSmith> I mean I looked through it and on the face of it at least nothing there seems whacko
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  492. # [13:36] <MikeSmith> I assume it's in the spirit of being a proposal in response to the rhetoric about "We can't discuss alternatives to EME unless we have actual proposals"
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  497. # [14:06] <zcorpan> hsivonen: i only find http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Mar/0581.html (see the end of it)
  498. # [14:07] <zcorpan> hsivonen: it was brought to my attention that svg2 also has meshGradient
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  538. # [15:52] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: seems fine not to be able to opt into doctype sniffing
  539. # [15:53] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: ok cool
  540. # [15:55] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: the one case I can think of it breaking is if somebody's using the Web service API
  541. # [15:56] <hsivonen> yeah, but we can't freeze everything for that
  542. # [15:56] <MikeSmith> agree eyah
  543. # [15:56] <MikeSmith> but I guess we could add a request parameter
  544. # [15:57] <MikeSmith> that they'd need to specify if they wanted the old behavior
  545. # [15:57] <MikeSmith> that seems pretty low-cost
  546. # [15:57] <hsivonen> yes
  547. # [15:58] <MikeSmith> OK
  548. # [15:58] <MikeSmith> that's what I'll do then
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  550. # [15:59] * MikeSmith wanted to ask zcorpan if he had any concerns about this plan but I guess he's away right now
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  555. # [16:09] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: what was the plan?
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  558. # [16:11] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: no sniffing except for opt-in in web service api?
  559. # [16:14] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: is the plan to remove the option to sniff in the web service api later? if yes why not do it now?
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  563. # [16:39] <SimonSapin> hsivonen: I picked 1024 from the HTML spec and Gecko code, and to not be tied too much to a set of supported encodings. Do you think it helps to reduce that number? How much? I think I used 100 bytes in tinycss2 and rust-cssparser
  564. # [16:39] <SimonSapin> zcorpan: what do you think of moving http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-syntax/#environment-encoding-xml into CSSOM?
  565. # [16:39] <SimonSapin> into http://dev.w3.org/csswg/cssom/#requirements-on-user-agents-implementing-the-xml-stylesheet-processing-instruction actually
  566. # [16:40] <zcorpan> SimonSapin: wfm
  567. # [16:40] <SimonSapin> zcorpan: I’d do it, but I failed to make Anolis work for CSSOM :)
  568. # [16:41] <zcorpan> SimonSapin: i'll get around to it
  569. # [16:41] <Ms2ger> Does cssom still use the... interesting preprocessor?
  570. # [16:41] <TabAtkins> Yes.
  571. # [16:41] <TabAtkins> So far.
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  573. # [16:42] <TabAtkins> zcorpan has said he wants to switch to Bikeshed. I think I just need to offer more forcefully to migrate him myself.
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  584. # [17:11] <jgraham> Is CSS Serialization for getComputedStyle actualy defined now?
  585. # [17:12] <annevk-cloud> zcorpan: it trims whitespace cause that is what is needed in a ton of contexts
  586. # [17:13] <annevk-cloud> I can see an argument for not doing it there though, had not really considered that
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  598. # [17:23] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ & http://logbot.glob.com.au/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
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  608. # [17:42] <astearns> jgraham: AFAICT no, at least not for interesting cases like multi-component values with optional parts
  609. # [17:43] <SimonSapin> browsers apparently do trim whitespace in @charset
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  616. # [17:50] <jgraham> I don't really care about interesting edge cases
  617. # [17:51] <jgraham> I care very specifically about whether https://critic.hoppipolla.co.uk/585e8a45?review=447 is valid
  618. # [17:51] <jgraham> (actually I *do* care about those edge cases)
  619. # [17:51] <jgraham> (but not so much right now)
  620. # [17:51] <jgraham> (the failure to standardise this stuff is tragi-comic)
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  624. # [17:54] <Ms2ger> Relative lengths: the <number> component serialized as per <number> followed by the unit in its canonical form as defined in its respective specification.
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  629. # [18:03] <jgraham> OK, so that test is good then?
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  632. # [18:08] <TabAtkins> Yeah.
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  635. # [18:15] <Ms2ger> I dunnop
  636. # [18:15] <Ms2ger> dunno*
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  642. # [18:21] <gsnedders> Huh. Understanding all possible transitions in the tree constructor is bloody hard.
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  645. # [18:23] <gsnedders> The tree construction dispatcher makes it very non-obvious what's possible
  646. # [18:23] <gsnedders> As does resetting the insertion mode.
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  650. # [18:29] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
  651. # [18:29] * jorendorff_away is now known as jorendorff
  652. # [18:31] <Ms2ger> Hi dglazkov!
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  660. # [18:38] <jgraham> dglazkov: Look I can beat Ms2ger! Lots of new PRs just waiting for your review!
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  662. # [18:38] <dglazkov> jgraham: yay?
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  664. # [18:38] <jgraham> https://critic.hoppipolla.co.uk/r/670 and https://critic.hoppipolla.co.uk/r/668
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  666. # [18:39] <dglazkov> today's chances looking slim. Gardening Blink.
  667. # [18:40] <jgraham> Did someone replae dglazkov with a magic eightball?
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  669. # [18:42] <Ms2ger> Signs point to yes.
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  672. # [18:46] <dglazkov> actually, I need to get hayato and morrita on to critic. They are the ones who should be looking at Shadow DOM and Imports tests, respectively.
  673. # [18:46] <dglazkov> and dominicc at Custom Elements
  674. # [18:46] * dglazkov delegates
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  677. # [18:48] <jgraham> dglazkov: Replacing yourself with three people sounds like a win
  678. # [18:49] <jgraham> Especially if they join IRC so we can nag them too ;)
  679. # [18:51] <Ms2ger> Nagging sounds good
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  691. # [19:04] <annevk> heycam: you around?
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  693. # [19:04] <heycam> annevk, yes
  694. # [19:04] <annevk> heycam: http://xhr.spec.whatwg.org/#interface-formdata
  695. # [19:04] <annevk> heycam: [Constructor(optional HTMLFormElement form)]
  696. # [19:05] <annevk> heycam: are you going to define what happens when HTMLFormElement is not part of the global?
  697. # [19:05] <heycam> annevk, for now, probably not; the conversion rules will just never consider any object passed in to be a value of the right type
  698. # [19:05] <heycam> since you can't get at one
  699. # [19:06] <heycam> look at all those [EnsureUTF16]s
  700. # [19:06] <annevk> heycam: except if you pass undefined since that'll mean missing?
  701. # [19:06] <heycam> annevk, sure
  702. # [19:06] <annevk> heycam: yeah you need to come up with a consistent story for EnsureUTF16 and ByteString :-)
  703. # [19:06] <heycam> I know
  704. # [19:06] <annevk> heycam: okay, sounds good
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  710. # [19:11] <MikeSmith> grr zcorpan away again
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  712. # [19:13] <Ms2ger> That damn zcorpan, being at home with his family
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  716. # [19:21] <bterlson> j #temporaldeadzone
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  728. # [19:34] <annevk> heycam: are callbacks and enmums automatically available everywhere?
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  732. # [19:34] <heycam> annevk, yes
  733. # [19:34] <heycam> annevk, you mean in all globals? or all specs?
  734. # [19:34] <heycam> either way, yes
  735. # [19:34] <annevk> yes
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  737. # [19:36] <Hixie> enums aren't detectable in a global, right?
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  739. # [19:36] <Hixie> i mean, they're just strings
  740. # [19:36] <heycam> right
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  753. # [20:10] <annevk> MikeSmith: https://twitter.com/sideshowbarker/status/428240986465005568 <3
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  766. # Session Close: Tue Jan 28 20:37:50 2014
  767. #
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  769. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  773. # [20:40] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ & http://logbot.glob.com.au/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
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  820. # [22:13] * marcosc wonders how MikeSmith just gets better looking year after year ....
  821. # [22:14] <marcosc> must be the drugs, booze, and party animal lifestyle.
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  845. # [22:40] <Hixie> any IE-capable users around?
  846. # [22:40] <Hixie> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?saved=2780
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  864. # [23:04] <annevk> So I think I just learned custom elements invented nanotasks
  865. # [23:06] <TabAtkins> ?!?
  866. # [23:06] <annevk> http://w3c.github.io/webcomponents/spec/custom/#enqueuing-and-invoking-callbacks
  867. # [23:06] <annevk> "When transitioning back from the user agent code to script, pop the element queue from the processing stack and invoke callbacks in that queue."
  868. # [23:06] <annevk> That should really be discussed in the context of TC39 I think
  869. # [23:07] <Hixie> what does that even mean, exactly?
  870. # [23:07] <Hixie> to do something similar in HTML we needed a bunch of WebIDL hooks
  871. # [23:07] <annevk> I think it means that x.do(); /* nanotask */ x.doElse();
  872. # [23:08] <Hixie> setTimeout(window.open, 0, ...); does this happen when the timeout fires at all?
  873. # [23:09] <annevk> Well that is a different problem I think
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  876. # [23:13] <Hixie> ah
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  878. # [23:14] <Hixie> how about dispatchEvent(), does it "transition back from user agent code to script"? or vice versa? or both?
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  890. # [23:23] <Domenic_> Hmm those nanotasks look bad
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  896. # [23:35] <TabAtkins> That's not what it means. It's meant to be referring to microtask checkpoints.
  897. # [23:35] <TabAtkins> I'm almost certain; if I'm wrong, we shoudl complain harder.
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  899. # [23:37] <annevk> I'm going to raise it on the list in a bit
  900. # [23:39] * gsnedders wonders if we have interop on what <script>document.write("\uD800\uDC80");</script> does.
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  902. # [23:39] <gsnedders> Because having that actually insert U+10080 would be so much nicer.
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  905. # [23:44] <Hixie> so... why did we not make </caption> optional?
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  913. # Session Close: Wed Jan 29 00:00:00 2014

The end :)