/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2014-02-05 / end

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# Session Start: Wed Feb 05 00:00:00 2014
# Session Ident: #whatwg
# [00:00] <sicking> Hixie: at least IDBObjectStore.indexNames IDBDatabase.objectStoreNames navigator.gamepads and HTMLInputElement.files will all be doing that soon
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# [00:00] <sicking> Hixie: if you don't want to go first then that's fine, but please remove getLanguages in the meantime
# [00:00] <Hixie> wait, what is happening to HTMLInputElement.files?
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# [00:01] <sicking> we're working on removing the FileList class (since it's icky and live) and just having .files return an Array
# [00:01] <sicking> it's unclear if .files should be readonly or not still, but either way it'll return an Array
# [00:01] <Hixie> sicking: (what's with this "my way or remove it" thing you've got going recently? can't we instead try to come up with designs we both think are good?)
# [00:02] <Hixie> hm, yeah, HTMLInputElement.files does have this behaviour already (not with an array, but the problem is the same either way)
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# [00:03] <sicking> Hixie: I just don't want features in the spec drafts that implementors don't like. I know you don't think what's in the draft matters and what's in the implementations is the only thing that does. However there's a lot of work trying to convince other people that what's in the spec draft is just a proposal and not to be taken as written in stone
# [00:04] <Hixie> sicking: "sicking doesn't like" isn't the same as "implementors don't like". i haven't heard any other implementors, including those who wanted this feature, say that getLanguages() is bad.
# [00:04] <Hixie> but in any case you have provided compelling evidence that this is already a pattern, so i'm happy to change to an attribute
# [00:04] <sicking> Hixie: which other implementors have asked for this feature
# [00:05] <sicking> Hixie: it isn't a pattern yet since WebIDL doesn't really support it. But we've spent a lot of time debating how to make WebIDL support this
# [00:05] <Hixie> arv commented that he wanted it for chrome at some point
# [00:05] <Hixie> nah, HTMLInputElement.files already does this
# [00:05] <sicking> Hixie: and has arv said that he prefers getLanguages() over .languages?
# [00:05] <Hixie> he hasn't said either way
# [00:05] <sicking> so the only feedback you have is that it's not good? I.e. the one from me?
# [00:06] <arv> getFoo is an anti pattern. I prefer using real getters
# [00:06] <Hixie> i have feedback that one person didn't like the way it was specced, yes
# [00:06] <Hixie> two now :-)
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# [00:06] <arv> I was in favor of exposing the capability
# [00:06] <Hixie> right
# [00:07] <sicking> Hixie: generally, whatever you put in the spec gets a lot of momentum, no matter if you've put it in there as a proposal and have no feedback from the people that asked for the feature or not
# [00:08] <Hixie> i wish
# [00:08] <Hixie> but sure
# [00:08] <Hixie> i'm not saying the spec should have bad stuff in it
# [00:08] <Hixie> i'm just saying that one person saying it's bad doesn't mean it's bad :-)
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# [00:08] <Hixie> and moreover, that rather than removing it, we should just find a better solution
# [00:08] <Hixie> and then replace it
# [00:09] <sicking> Hixie: sure, add navigator.languages which returns sequence<DOMString>
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# [00:09] <sicking> Hixie: i'm happy to replace with something better. But until we agree on what's better I prefer to not have bad features in there
# [00:10] <Hixie> you can't have an attribute return sequence<>s. But they can return DOMString[], which is what i'm speccing.
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# [00:10] <Hixie> sicking: i think it's worth at least trying to find common ground for a few minutes before demanding that something be removed, is all i'm saying. "hey, you just did what i wanted, except not quite, so immediately remove it!" is how it comes across.
# [00:11] <sicking> Hixie: cool. Hopefully DOMString[] will go away when we fix the webidl bug. But using it until then seems fine
# [00:11] <sicking> Hixie: i tried to find common ground first. Which is why I pushed for .languages. But since we couldn't reach agreement I asked that it was removed until there was agreement
# [00:12] <Hixie> "i want X" "i want Y" "remove Y" is not trying to find common ground.
# [00:12] <Hixie> "i want X" "i want Y" "how about Z" would be trying to find common ground.
# [00:12] <sicking> what would the Z be here?
# [00:13] <Hixie> i've no idea
# [00:13] <Hixie> that's the "finding" part of "finding common ground"
# [00:13] <Hixie> "i want X" "i want Y because R" "R is false because D" "ok let's do X" would be good too
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# [00:13] <Hixie> instead of "i want X" "i want Y because R" "remove Y" "but R!" "R is false because D" "ok let's do X" which is what we did above
# [00:14] <Hixie> anyway
# [00:14] <sicking> a lot of this stuff comes down to opinions
# [00:14] <sicking> you felt that getFoo was an ok pattern, i did not
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# [00:14] <Hixie> sure, but the opinions aren't what mattered in the end
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# [00:15] <sicking> no?
# [00:16] <Hixie> you showed me a feature that already existed that had the semantics you wanted, disproving my argument regarding lack of precedent.
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# [00:17] <sicking> my strategy was always to do that. Which is why I asked it to be removed until there was precedence
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# [00:21] <Hixie> sicking: it felt more like "you're wrong, i'm right, i'd rather the spec not have this feature than have it be your way, and i'll just wait until i have more specs to point to rather than convince you now". but whatever.
# [00:21] <Hixie> sicking: see new checkin, let me know if it's ok!
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# [00:26] <sicking> Hixie: I generally don't know how to convince you given that a lot API design is not about X being provaly better than Y
# [00:26] <sicking> Hixie: I still don't know how to convince you that .foo is better than .getFoo()
# [00:27] <sicking> especially since that's not always the case. I would have done .innerHTML as getInnerHTML() or as serializeToHTML()
# [00:28] <Hixie> i wouldn't have done innerHTML at all :-)
# [00:29] <Hixie> IMHO attributes are good when you can treat them like variables - cheap to access, unsurprising to reuse
# [00:29] <Hixie> methods are good when you want the author to consider the call expensive, or when you want them to cache the result and operate on that
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# [00:29] <sicking> Hixie: another reason that it's hard to convince you in this case is that we disagree on the "do the best we can for new APIs vs. do the most consistent we can for new APIs" issue
# [00:30] <Hixie> yeah
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# [00:30] <Hixie> well
# [00:30] <Hixie> more to the point, i disagree with that characterisation of the issue
# [00:30] <sicking> Hixie: sounds like we do agree on the attributes vs. function thing
# [00:31] <Hixie> i think it's "do the best we can for new APIs vs keep changing patterns so authors have to know what year the API was invented to know how to use it"
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# [00:31] <Hixie> or more to the point, i don't think it's "best" vs something, it's "consistent" vs "using new idioms"
# [00:31] <Hixie> and it's not at all clear to me that using new idioms is automatically better than being consistent
# [00:32] <Hixie> consistency is a huge part of what makes an API usable
# [00:32] <sicking> Hixie: Another way to put it would be "be consistent with popular JS libraries so that the DOM doesn't look like an alien spaceship vs. be self-consistent within the DOM so that people can find their way around the spaceship"
# [00:32] <sicking> I think it's a judgement call
# [00:33] <sicking> but ultimately I think that I'm more agressive about abandoning existing conventions in the DOM
# [00:33] <Hixie> well, the problem is that "popuplar JS libraries" change every other year
# [00:34] <Hixie> we can't target today's libraries or yesterday's or tomorrow's. We have to design an API for decades.
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# [00:34] <Domenic_> i like the spaceship analogy
# [00:35] <Hixie> (also, i'd argue it's the libraries that are the aliens!)
# [00:35] <sicking> Hixie: I've made the same judgement call in the past btw. FileReader was designed to be consistent with XHR. On direct request from authors
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# [00:35] <sicking> Hixie: (same judgement call as you made I mean)
# [00:36] <Hixie> well, you have to be consistent with the right thing :-P
# [00:36] <Hixie> XHR is a disaster
# [00:36] <sicking> Hixie: many people argue that the DOM is a disaster
# [00:36] <Hixie> including me, sure
# [00:37] <Hixie> i wouldn't be consistent with .getElementById() over introducing something like .find(), e.g.
# [00:37] <Hixie> but i probably would argue for .getElementsByClassName() rather than .searchClasses()
# [00:37] <sicking> Hixie: patch looks good
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# [00:38] <sicking> Hixie: like I said, most if this is judgement calls. Which is why I don't know how to convince you
# [00:38] <Hixie> nor i you
# [00:39] <Hixie> it's probably a case-by-case basis thing
# [00:40] <sicking> yup
# [00:40] <sicking> Hixie: re bug 23988
# [00:40] <sicking> Hixie: you need some asynchronousness there
# [00:40] <Hixie> hm, good point
# [00:40] <sicking> Hixie: the iterator should probably be a Stream<File>
# [00:40] <zewt> "authors" will request everything, since there are a lot of authors, heh
# [00:40] <Hixie> Stream<> ?
# [00:41] <zewt> this author sure doesn't care much for "consistent with xhr" as a design goal
# [00:41] <sicking> I.e. a Stream where all the returned objects are Files
# [00:41] <sicking> Hixie: though...
# [00:41] <zewt> (i copy and paste code every time i use xhr since I can never remember it, heh)
# [00:41] <Hixie> i figured Stream<File> was a Stream which returned Files, but what's a Stream?
# [00:42] <sicking> Hixie: basically an asynchronous iterator
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# [00:42] <Hixie> is that documented anywhere?
# [00:42] <Hixie> i figured async stuff should use promises
# [00:42] <sicking> there's a spec. I don't know how finished it is yet. Nor if it handles objects yet
# [00:42] <Hixie> do you have a url to this spec? WebIDL doesn't mention it...
# [00:42] <sicking> Hixie: Domenic_ is editing. He can fill you in on its status
# [00:43] <Domenic_> https://github.com/whatwg/streams. I would not call it finished (and definitely not polished.) But it does handle objects.
# [00:43] <Hixie> aha, i was wondering when that spec would become something i had to read :-)
# [00:44] <Domenic_> Here is a version that is more readable but omits the crunchy details because I haven't ported them over yet. Click "this one" at https://github.com/whatwg/streams/issues/62
# [00:44] <Domenic_> (the actual URL is too long for my IRC client)
# [00:44] <zewt> (the only thing I saw about streams was a bug that said "this is replacing blob, so ...", which is silly so I stopped paying attention)
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# [00:45] <sicking> zewt: it's not replacing Blob
# [00:45] <zewt> i know that :P
# [00:45] <sicking> similar but separate use cases
# [00:45] <sicking> ah
# [00:45] <zewt> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23975 i'm sure there's a context I'm not aware of, all I saw was "stream will replace most roles of Blob"
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# [00:47] <zewt> guess I should look at the actual pre-spec so I at least know what it's about
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# [00:49] <Hixie> i don't really understand either of these specs
# [00:50] <Hixie> Domenic_: so i have a method that returns an object that represents an asynchronously iterated list of File objects
# [00:50] <Hixie> Domenic_: var list = input.getFileIterator()
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# [00:51] <Hixie> Domenic_: how do i use "file", if it's one of these thingies, to pass each File to a method process(file) ?
# [00:51] <Hixie> er
# [00:51] <Hixie> how do i use "list"...
# [00:52] <zewt> <- can't read the examples
# [00:53] <Hixie> i'd like something like function iterate (list) { if (list.done) return; process(list.value); list.moveNext(iterate); }; list.moveNext(iterate);
# [00:53] <zewt> promises are the least intuitive api i've seen on the platform in a long time
# [00:53] <Hixie> though ideally without hte duplicate list.moveNext()
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# [00:53] <Hixie> even better would be:
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# [00:54] <Hixie> list.readAll(process);
# [00:54] <Hixie> (where readAll's callback gives you controls to pause the iteration)
# [00:54] <Hixie> (e.g. return false to stop)
# [00:58] <Domenic_> Hixie: search for streamToConsole in the anolis-ified version.
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# [00:58] <Hixie> yeah that seemed pretty long, i was assuming there was some briefer alternative
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# [00:58] <Domenic_> yeah.
# [00:58] <Domenic_> i am not sure streams are perfect for this use case
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# [00:58] <Hixie> k
# [00:59] <Domenic_> the benefit would be that you could integrate with a larger ecosystem of streams, e.g. pipe to a transform stream that transforms files into decoded video data, then another transform that muxes them, then pipe them into a video tag.
# [00:59] <Domenic_> but for naive usage something like an iterator of promises would get you closer to your original code
# [01:01] <Domenic_> an iterator of promises would give `function iterate(list) { var entry = list.next(); if (entry.done) { return; } entry.value.then(v => { process(v); iterate(list); }); }`
# [01:01] <Domenic_> anyway got to run
# [01:01] <Hixie> shouldn't streams be simple enough that you could use them here?
# [01:01] <Domenic_> they are meant as a pretty low-level primitive
# [01:01] <Domenic_> for e.g. raw file or socket I/O
# [01:02] <Hixie> low-level doesn't mean they can't be simple...
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# [01:10] <Hixie> so many ways to design an iterator
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# [07:17] <tyoshino__> zewt: sorry. i didn't mean replacing all the use cases of Blob. Use cases where stream fits, stream would play the role instead of Blob. Like Domenic_'s examples, we could have elements to work as WritableStream and pipe to it from some source
# [07:18] <tyoshino__> elements, video, audio, etc.
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# [07:42] <tyoshino__> Corrected on the bug
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# [10:24] <annevk> https://twitter.com/hober/status/430907579061915648 hahaha
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# [10:28] <yoav> zcorpan: I'm adding the essence of http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?saved=2795 as a Blink layout test, if you're cool with it
# [10:29] <zcorpan> yoav: no need to ask for permission to write tests :-)
# [10:29] <zcorpan> or to steal my tests
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# [10:58] <yoav> zcorpan: awesome!
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# [11:42] <annevk> Hixie: I agree with you with respect to frozen
# [11:43] <annevk> Hixie: frozen has the wrong semantic, you want immutable
# [11:43] <annevk> Hixie: the inability to mutate the array, but the ability to add expandos
# [11:43] <annevk> Hixie: of course that doesn't really exist
# [11:46] <jgraham> If only there were people working on the platform who could make it exist
# [11:49] <darobin> jgraham++ # funny
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# [11:55] <annevk> I think sicking's idea is that by using frozen, we can more easily switch to immutable later. Whereas if they are not frozen, we cannot switch to immutable later.
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# [12:16] <MikeSmith> I guess I shouldn't admit I don't know what frozen is
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# [12:26] <SteveF> MikeSmith: its a movie http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frozen_%282013_film%29
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# [12:32] <jgraham> Hmm, nice to know that shadow-DOM is stilll a trainwreck
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# [13:05] <zcorpan> https://github.com/bholley/web-platform-tests/compare/submission;bholley isn't actually a pull request yet, is it? i can't find it listed in w3c/web-platform-tests PRs
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# [13:14] <jgraham> zcorpan: No
# [13:16] <jgraham> I think this is the wrong hour to ask bholley if he meant it to be
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# [13:26] <zcorpan> i commented in the bug so he'll see it at the right hour i hope :-)
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# [13:39] <jgraham> Look like interesting tests, but I want to make comments ;)
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# [13:48] <zcorpan> hsivonen: MikeSmith: does v.nu not support <foreignObject>?
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# [13:49] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: it's meant to
# [13:51] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: test document?
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# [13:54] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: <!DOCTYPE html><title>x</title><svg><foreignobject></foreignobject></svg>
# [13:55] <zcorpan> foreignObject has a weird content model per spec. is it intentional that any element in the svg namespace is allowed?
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# [13:59] <MikeSmith> foreignObject should only allow <math>, <html>, <body>, or flow content
# [14:00] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: <!DOCTYPE html><title>x</title><svg><switch><foreignobject></foreignobject></switch></svg>
# [14:01] <MikeSmith> is foreignobject now allowed outside of switch?
# [14:01] <zcorpan> switch huh
# [14:01] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/the-map-element.html#svg-0 seems to ban <html> and <body>
# [14:02] * MikeSmith looks
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# [14:02] <MikeSmith> oh
# [14:03] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: and http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG11/struct.html#SVGElement seems to allow foreignObject as child of svg
# [14:03] <MikeSmith> I wonder if that was added later. Anyway, I can fix that
# [14:03] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: hmm yeah
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# [14:03] <zcorpan> maybe first edition didn't
# [14:03] <MikeSmith> yeah I think probably so
# [14:04] <MikeSmith> anyway I can fix that too
# [14:04] <zcorpan> cool
# [14:05] <MikeSmith> "This appendix summarizes the changes from the previous publication of SVG 1.1 Second Edition"
# [14:05] <MikeSmith> hey geniuses how about listing the changes sinces actual 1.1
# [14:06] <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/TR/2010/WD-SVG11-20100622/changes.html#WholeDocument
# [14:07] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: have to go all the way back to that WD to figure out what they actually changed
# [14:07] <MikeSmith> "The content models of container elements were changed to allow ‘foreignObject’ children. Previously, according to the DTD, ‘foreignObject’ was allowed only as the child of a ‘switch’."
# [14:07] <MikeSmith> whatever "container elements" is
# [14:08] <zcorpan> http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG11/intro.html#TermContainerElement
# [14:09] <MikeSmith> ok
# [14:09] <zcorpan> is there a plan with svg2?
# [14:09] * zcorpan finds http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG2/changes.html#extend
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# [14:33] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: surely we don't want to allow <body> in <foreignObject> in text/html
# [14:33] <hsivonen> zcorpan: but yeah, v.nu is supposed to support <foreignObject>
# [14:34] <hsivonen> zcorpan: I might have made stuff up here, because the specs didn't make sense.
# [14:34] <hsivonen> zcorpan: it's been a while. can't recall
# [14:34] <zcorpan> hsivonen: appears like it does but follows and old svg 1.1 spec and made up content model for html or something (probably predates html spec's rules)
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# [14:35] <hsivonen> zcorpan: quite possible
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# [14:42] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: working on it now
# [14:42] <MikeSmith> we inherited that schema from the SVG WG
# [14:43] <MikeSmith> and I am finding now that it in some ways it doesn't actually even follow the original SVG 1.1 spec
# [14:43] <MikeSmith> for example, it says SVG.glyph.content = SVG.Description.class*, SVG.glyph.class*
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# [14:44] <MikeSmith> so glyph if it had "description" elements, would need to have them before any other elements
# [14:44] <MikeSmith> but the 1.1 spec says the child elements can be in any order
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# [14:57] * annevk wonders what https://twitter.com/RobbertAtWork/status/429271270052872193 was about
# [14:57] * annevk finds it to work fine
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# [15:09] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: foreignObject changes fixed and pushed to http://validator.w3.org/nu/
# [15:09] <MikeSmith> thanks
# [15:09] <MikeSmith> http://validator.w3.org/nu/?doc=data:text/html;charset=utf-8,<!DOCTYPE html><title>x</title><svg><foreignobject height width></foreignobject></svg>
# [15:11] <MikeSmith> we really need some SVG-in-HTML test documents for wpt conformance-checkers/
# [15:11] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: <svg><foreignobject width height><svg></svg></foreignobject></svg> "Error: Element svg is missing a required instance of child element foreignObject. " ?
# [15:12] <MikeSmith> hmm
# [15:12] <MikeSmith> um dunno
# [15:12] * MikeSmith looks back at schema
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# [15:15] <MikeSmith> whoops forgot the "*" (zero or more)
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# [15:17] <MikeSmith> see what I said before about having test documents..
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# [15:39] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: how do i enable XML parser?
# [15:39] <zcorpan> file upload maybe
# [15:39] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: mime type
# [15:40] <MikeSmith> or .xhtml file upload
# [15:40] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: data: URL
# [15:41] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: fixed the "Error: Element svg is missing a required instance of child element foreignObject. "
# [15:41] <MikeSmith> and pushed it
# [15:41] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: i meant from textarea input
# [15:41] <zcorpan> nice
# [15:42] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: yeah can't do with for textarea any more at http://validator.w3.org/nu/
# [15:43] <MikeSmith> experimenting with dropping most of those XML-related options
# [15:44] <MikeSmith> or really pretty much all the options except the "Show x" options
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# [15:46] <annevk> Reasons for Fetch to know about Document: referrer, Origin?, tasks, CSP
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# [15:47] <annevk> Reasons for Fetch to not know about Document: CSP (if allowed to be manipulated through script), only works in specification land
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# [15:47] <gsnedders> I read that as French, not Fetch.
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# [15:50] <annevk> JakeA: you around?
# [15:50] <JakeA> Yep!
# [15:51] <annevk> JakeA: do you remember when, from the perspective of the service worker, you want to do URL rewrites?
# [15:52] <annevk> JakeA: i.e. the request is for /a, and you reply with /b and don't want a redirect to happen and want URLs in /b to be resolved with /a as base?
# [15:52] <JakeA> If you respondWith anything, the browser sees it as a response to the request url
# [15:53] <annevk> JakeA: it seems to me we could always do a conceptual redirect if there's a mismatch between request URL and response URL and if you don't want that redirect you'd rewrite the response URL to match the request URL
# [15:53] <annevk> JakeA: so if the request was for /a and you have a response from /b and you don't want the browser to redirect you'd do response.url = "/a" first
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# [15:54] * annevk is trying to define response's url
# [15:55] <JakeA> I'm trying to remember why that wasn't ok…
# [15:55] <JakeA> If it is ok, then it's the right thing to do
# [15:56] <JakeA> Does it reveal redirect info in a way we don't want?
# [15:57] <annevk> No, that would be impossible. I guess the weird case is the navigate/popup/child scenario as redirecting there could affect the service worker in use
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# [15:57] <annevk> At which point you probably would not want to use the given response?
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# [15:59] * JakeA is flip flopping
# [16:00] <JakeA> Maybe rewrite is the best thing to do, as it most closely resembles the serverside model
# [16:00] <JakeA> "For the request url, here is your response"
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# [16:12] <annevk> JakeA: okay, rewrite meaning the page would never know about it?
# [16:12] <annevk> JakeA: e.g. XHR's responseURL (to be added, hence these questions) would return "/a"?
# [16:13] <annevk> JakeA: the main problem there is that sometimes you do want redirect to be followed, e.g. for a CSS resource it seems unlikely you ever wanted to rewrite it
# [16:14] <annevk> JakeA: because then all subresources might end up having the wrong URL fetched
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# [16:16] <JakeA> annevk: yeah, I feel like we've swapped sides on this. I argued for this because of CSS on the last day of the meeting, Jonas talked me round.
# [16:16] <JakeA> annevk: But yeah, it makes sense for CSS, but not so much for pages
# [16:16] <JakeA> annevk: Eg, if I was delivering /static/page-shell.html in place of /
# [16:17] <annevk> JakeA: even in that case if /static/page-shell.html had <img src=logo.png> you could be in trouble
# [16:18] <annevk> JakeA: though I agree you do not want a redirect there, that'd look ugly
# [16:18] <annevk> JakeA: so you should probably have absolute-path-relative URLs
# [16:18] <annevk> http://url.spec.whatwg.org/#concept-absolute-path-relative-url
# [16:19] <JakeA> Agreed
# [16:19] <annevk> zcorpan: encoding="text/html" reads so weird
# [16:19] <zcorpan> annevk: yeah
# [16:19] <JakeA> Could be a problem if the shell was served from a CDN, but I don't know how common that would be
# [16:20] <annevk> JakeA: mkay, rewrite-always makes sense if we advice people to use absolute-path-relative URLs
# [16:20] <annevk> JakeA: do we allow CORS filtered responses as top-level?
# [16:20] <annevk> JakeA: I guess we might as well
# [16:20] <JakeA> Also, what happens if the reponseUrl isn't set, is the request url substituted in?
# [16:21] <JakeA> annevk: Yeah, I don't see why not. Doesn't seem insecure.
# [16:21] <annevk> JakeA: so Fetch will determine the response's URL solely based on the last request URL
# [16:21] <JakeA> Guess it's only opaque ones that cause issues
# [16:22] <annevk> JakeA: so I think within the context of responseWith() the url property of the Response object is not relevant
# [16:22] <annevk> JakeA: Response.url is only relevant for fetch() and maybe caches
# [16:22] <JakeA> Yeah, although it's used for CSP right?
# [16:23] <JakeA> (btw, I'm really jetlagged so sorry for slow thinking)
# [16:23] <annevk> Nah, this is great
# [16:24] <annevk> Given Document -> Fetch -> Service Worker -> Network, CSP should only govern the last arrow I suppose
# [16:25] <annevk> So if the service worker gets a Response object or creates one itself it's already trusted at that point from the CSP perspective
# [16:26] <JakeA> Doesn't that circumvent a lot of the CSP stuff? Eg, I lose the ability to say "scripts can come from domain x, css can come from domain y"
# [16:27] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: yeah dunno why the vnu schema had allowed body in there before. anyway it's fixed now
# [16:28] <JakeA> Although if an attacker gets to create a serviceworker on the origin, the castle's walls are completely down anyway
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# [16:36] <annevk> JakeA: the moment you put a service worker in the middle you can no longer really control that I think
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# [16:36] <annevk> JakeA: e.g. the service worker could take the bytes of a response from domain y and serve it up as a fresh response to a fetch for a script
# [16:37] <JakeA> annevk: Only if it non-opaue, but if the script is an attacker's script, they can control that
# [16:37] <JakeA> yeah, makes sense
# [16:37] <JakeA> opaque*
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# [16:38] <annevk> JakeA: we could make service workers CSP-opt-in maybe
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# [16:38] <annevk> JakeA: given how big of a foot gun they might be to you
# [16:38] <annevk> JakeA: but that kinda sucks
# [16:39] <JakeA> annevk: Setting content-type was a huge barrier to entry for appcache
# [16:39] <JakeA> Requiring serviceworkers to be on the same origin feels good enough
# [16:40] <annevk> But yeah, service workers make the whole fetch purpose/context discussion that CSP is having kind of irrelevant
# [16:41] <annevk> I'll write an email to the CSP guys I guess. I wish I was a bit further today. Such a slow day
# [16:41] <JakeA> I've managed about 3 paragraphs of a blog post
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# [18:10] <dglazkov> good mornign, Whatwg!
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# [18:29] <Ms2ger> Hey dglazkov!
# [18:29] <Ms2ger> If you want to ship all this stuff soon, there'd better be a test suite ;)
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# [18:43] <jgraham> (and a spec :p)
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# [18:54] <m4nu> Anyone know what the best way to discover the final URL is after a bunch of redirects have been followed by XMLHttpRequest? Is there a solution to this problem yet?
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# [19:00] <hober> annevk: re: http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?saved=2798 i'm surprised to see .children on DocumentFragment in Gecko
# [19:01] <hober> annevk: i would have expected you to write http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?saved=2799
# [19:01] <hober> annevk: (which works in both webkit and gecko)
# [19:01] <Ms2ger> It's on ParentNode?
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# [19:02] <annevk> hober: http://dom.spec.whatwg.org/#parentnode
# [19:03] <annevk> hober: however, I always forget what the non-children one is called, didn't even realize I was operating on a DocumentFragment :-)
# [19:03] <annevk> hober: please don't tell my employer I don't know what I'm doing
# [19:05] <hober> heh
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# [19:05] <hober> i must have missed it when HTMLCollection things got added to DocumentFragment
# [19:05] <hober> do we really want to have more HTMLCollections?
# [19:06] <Ms2ger> It's the same HTMLCollection as before
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# [19:12] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: thanks
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# [19:13] <hober> tracked down the relevant bug, thanks
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# [19:49] <TabAtkins> zcorpan: It's not really *intentional* to allow CSS escapes in srcset, but doing anything less would require defining my own private tokenizer.
# [19:50] <TabAtkins> Or defining a full parsing algorithm, which seems like overkill.
# [19:51] <Hixie> i wonder what i was smoking when i wrote "This specification does not define any processing for elements in SVG fragments that are not in the HTML namespace; they are considered neither conforming nor non-conforming from the perspective of this specification."
# [19:51] <Hixie> that's completely meaningless
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# [19:54] <jgraham> It depends if SVG fragments is well defined
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# [19:55] <jgraham> If an SVG fragment was, say, a subtree consisting of all nodes with a common ancestor that is the SVG element in the SVG namespace, it would seeem to make sense
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# [19:56] <Hixie> jgraham: it adds no conformance statements, despite sounding like it does, and it doesn't point the reader to any conformance statements, and it doesn't give the implications of conformance statements, nor give best practices...
# [19:57] <Hixie> in other news, anyone know where MathML defines its content models? MikeSmith maybe?
# [19:57] <MikeSmith> yeah
# [19:57] <MikeSmith> but if you're asking about annotation-xml they don't define it
# [19:57] <MikeSmith> you have to :)
# [19:58] <Hixie> i was asking about <mi>, mainly
# [19:58] <MikeSmith> ok
# [19:58] <Hixie> (the idea being to see how they phrased that, so i could remain somewhat consistent)
# [19:58] <Hixie> (for a-xml)
# [19:59] <MikeSmith> ah cool
# [19:59] <MikeSmith> man you fast
# [19:59] <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/TR/MathML3/chapter3.html#presm.mi
# [19:59] <jgraham> Hixie: The first part seems like a statement of fact
# [19:59] <MikeSmith> is where I'm looking myself now
# [20:00] <MikeSmith> ... and they don't say it there, I see
# [20:00] <Hixie> jgraham: it's definitely trying to be a statement of fact, but not a useful one, is what i'm saying :_)
# [20:00] <MikeSmith> I guess you probably already looked there. I'll dig further
# [20:00] <Hixie> MikeSmith: i was expecting them to have a DTD or something
# [20:00] <MikeSmith> they have a RelaxNG schema
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# [20:01] <MikeSmith> but I think there's prose somewhere in teh spec
# [20:01] <MikeSmith> I hope so at least
# [20:02] <Hixie> did we just make up the fact that <mi> can contain HTML phrasing elements from whole cloth?
# [20:03] <MikeSmith> um um
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# [20:03] <MikeSmith> I seem to remember I filed an HTML spec bug about it a long time agao
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# [20:03] <MikeSmith> and I also asked the Math WG bout it
# [20:03] <Hixie> we list mi, mo, mn, ms, and mtext as "MathML text integration points"
# [20:03] <Hixie> which means they can receive HTML nodes
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# [20:04] <Hixie> but i can't find anything that actually says the content model for those allows anything but text, mglyph, and the other mathml text stuff
# [20:04] <MikeSmith> yeah I remember we actually discseed it
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# [20:06] <Hixie> bummer, my blame records aren't precached for the edits around there
# [20:07] * Hixie sets up some more blame caches
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# [20:09] <MikeSmith> Hixie: I raised https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=9859 back when, but you wontfixed it
# [20:09] * MikeSmith keeps looking
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# [20:10] <Hixie> that bug is a great example of why i don't actually mark a bug WONTFIX when i wontfix it, but leave it open for people to argue back for a while :-)
# [20:10] <Hixie> don't any more, i mean
# [20:11] <Hixie> i'm not really sure i understand that bug though
# [20:12] <MikeSmith> that bug kinda diverged from teh description
# [20:12] <MikeSmith> Hixie: http://www.w3.org/TR/MathML3/chapter6.html#world-int-combine-other is what you want I think
# [20:12] <MikeSmith> well hmm not much there either
# [20:13] <Hixie> yeah i think my wontfix is for the original description, and it makes sense relative to that (you don't have to ban things that aren't allowed in the content model, by definition)
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# [20:13] <MikeSmith> yeah
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# [20:14] <MikeSmith> "When designing a compound document format in which MathML is included in a larger document type, the designer may extend the content model of MathML to allow additional elements." is the main relevant part I guess
# [20:15] <MikeSmith> before it said, "In the lax schema profile, elements from non-MathML namespaces are allowed in token elements, but not in other elements"
# [20:15] <MikeSmith> where "token elements" = mi, mo, mn, ms, and mtext
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# [20:17] <Hixie> aha! excellent, that's exactly what we need
# [20:18] <MikeSmith> cool
# [20:18] <MikeSmith> (sorry it took me so long to find it -- it's been a while since we had those discussions)
# [20:19] <Hixie> oh no worries, i couldn't find it either!
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# [20:20] <MikeSmith> yeah actually I remember not how painful it was to try to find anything in that spec
# [20:22] <Hixie> do we have to say anything about annotation-xml's encoding attribute? or just say that if it contains html, it must be flow content?
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# [20:29] <Hixie> MikeSmith: ok, check what i just checked in, reopen the bug if it's no good. https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=24526
# [20:29] <Hixie> heycam|away: ping
# [20:29] * MikeSmith looks at commmit
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# [20:32] <MikeSmith> Hixie: Thanks -- looks great as-is to me. I don't think we need to say anything explicit in the HTML spec about annotation-xml's encoding attribute but I'll ping David Carlisle to confirm.
# [20:32] <Hixie> k.
# [20:32] <Hixie> thanks!
# [20:32] <MikeSmith> cheers
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# [22:06] <heycam> Hixie, pong
# [22:06] <heycam> and good morning
# [22:07] <Hixie> hey
# [22:07] <Hixie> you following the Window/Location security thing?
# [22:08] <heycam> I have seen the comments come in but not read them
# [22:08] <heycam> is it time for me to read them now? :)
# [22:09] <Hixie> well, probably not
# [22:09] <Hixie> but
# [22:09] <Hixie> i was thinking about how to do this
# [22:10] <Hixie> and it is probably going to end up being best partly done in WebIDL
# [22:10] <Hixie> so i wanted to give you a heads-up
# [22:10] <bholley> Hixie: who is the abarth/bholley/travis equivalent at WebKit?
# [22:10] <Hixie> bholley: no idea, but hober would know
# [22:10] <bholley> hober: ^
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# [22:11] <Hixie> abarth and eseidel might know also
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# [22:11] <heycam> Hixie, ok well let me know when it's figured out what bits should be on the Web IDL side
# [22:11] <Hixie> heycam: basically cross-origin Window and Location objects are gonna behave very differently than same-origin Window and Location objects. so i was thinking maybe the way to spec this is to have two actual separate interfaces, a Window and a WindowCrossOrigin, where the second has some sort of [CrossOriginObjectFor=Window] attribute or some such
# [22:12] <abarth> bholley: what expertise exactly are you looking for?
# [22:12] <abarth> JS bindings?
# [22:12] <Hixie> heycam: and then webidl would take care of killing the prototype, making things act frozen, returning the right Function objects, etc
# [22:12] <bholley> abarth: I'm just wondering who we want to get feedback from on the Window/Location stuff
# [22:12] <Hixie> heycam: anyway, i'll let you know when it's ready, we're still trying to get people on board at this point
# [22:12] <heycam> Hixie, ok
# [22:12] <abarth> bholley: I'd ask sam wenig
# [22:13] <abarth> he might be a manager now and direct you to someone else
# [22:13] <bholley> abarth: do you have his email?
# [22:13] <abarth> but he's a good person to start with
# [22:13] <abarth> yeah
# [22:14] <abarth> http://trac.webkit.org/search?q=sam%40webkit.org&noquickjump=1&changeset=on&wiki=on
# [22:14] <bholley> abarth: great, thanks
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# [22:56] <hober> he's also in #whatwg
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# [23:20] <Hixie> bholley: re your mail, as per my comments with heycam earlier, i think most of the details will hopefully end up specced in WebIDL, and HTML will just have to have its 900+ mentions of Window and Location updated to return the right objects
# [23:20] <Hixie> heycam: in the meantime, https://etherpad.mozilla.org/html5-cross-origin-objects is the current thinking
# [23:20] <bholley> Hixie: sgtm
# [23:21] <bholley> Hixie: I forgot to CC heycam - did you forward, or should I?
# [23:21] <Hixie> feel free to
# [23:21] <heycam> thx
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# Session Close: Thu Feb 06 00:00:01 2014

The end :)