/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2014-02-11 / end

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  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  109. # Session Close: Tue Feb 11 03:57:15 2014
  110. #
  111. # Session Start: Tue Feb 11 03:57:15 2014
  112. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  116. # [03:58] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ & http://logbot.glob.com.au/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  117. # [03:58] * Set by smaug____!~chatzilla@GGZYYCCCXVIII.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi on Wed Mar 21 17:14:24
  118. # [03:58] -sendak.freenode.net:#whatwg- [freenode-info] channel flooding and no channel staff around to help? Please check with freenode support: http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#gettinghelp
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  232. # [08:57] <annevk-cloud> Literal check may be better there, btw
  233. # [08:58] <annevk-cloud> Especially if we do that for script
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  246. # [09:35] <zcorpan> jgraham: not being able to use {{host}} etc in tests directly is a bit annoying. would it be possible to enable it with __dir__ or something?
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  265. # [10:35] <darobin> annevk-cloud: do you know what the cases are, if any, in which it isn't possible to convert a string to punycode?
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  267. # [10:35] <darobin> looking at it it would seem to happily munge anything
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  271. # [10:37] <darobin> I ask because HTML says "Constraint validation: While the user interface is representing input that the user agent cannot convert to punycode, the control is suffering from bad input." (for email inputs)
  272. # [10:37] <darobin> but deniak has been having trouble writing a test for that :)
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  276. # [10:44] <Ms2ger> So, when is an object element rendered as a replaced element?
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  299. # [11:54] <jgraham> zcorpan: Yeah. Not sure how to solve that best
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  304. # [12:06] <annevk-cloud> darobin: not sure if punycode can fail, but ToASCII can
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  307. # [12:19] <zcorpan> jgraham: would it be bad to have sub enabled for all .html files?
  308. # [12:22] <jgraham> zcorpan: Yeah, I think so. I strongly suspect it makes things much slower
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  314. # [12:41] <jgraham> zcorpan: We could make some hack like a file extension to indicate that substitutions should be applied
  315. # [12:41] <jgraham> like foo.sub.html
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  317. # [12:42] <zcorpan> wfm
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  348. # Session Close: Tue Feb 11 14:14:23 2014
  349. #
  350. # Session Start: Tue Feb 11 14:14:23 2014
  351. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  353. # [14:31] * Attempting to rejoin channel #whatwg
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  355. # [14:31] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ & http://logbot.glob.com.au/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
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  366. # [15:08] <annevk> smaug____: yo, could you maybe comment on your preference with regards to GC of Notification objects in https://github.com/whatwg/notifications/issues/9 ?
  367. # [15:08] <annevk> I wonder what we've done so far in such scenarios
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  369. # [15:10] <smaug____> github
  370. # [15:10] <smaug____> uh
  371. # [15:11] <smaug____> looking...
  372. # [15:11] <smaug____> (while eating lunch )
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  374. # [15:15] <smaug____> annevk: is there really any other option than returning always new notification
  375. # [15:16] <annevk> smaug____: Notification objects could be tied to the lifetime of the global
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  377. # [15:17] <smaug____> so over timer there can be tons of them...
  378. # [15:17] <smaug____> say an email app
  379. # [15:18] <annevk> smaug____: well, notifications that are closed can be collected
  380. # [15:18] <smaug____> sure
  381. # [15:18] <smaug____> what was the reason to add .get()
  382. # [15:19] <annevk> smaug____: if you close your email page and then open it again later while notifications are still in the notification center
  383. # [15:19] <annevk> smaug____: or if you open your email page again in another window and you want to know about existing notifications
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  385. # [15:19] <smaug____> ah, right
  386. # [15:20] <smaug____> but it is getOrCreate
  387. # [15:20] <smaug____> currently
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  392. # [15:22] <annevk> well, it gets notifications, either as existing Notification objects, or as newly created ones if the global didn't have any representation for them yet
  393. # [15:22] <annevk> it doesn't create new notifications, just new Notification objects
  394. # [15:23] <smaug____> could we call get() something else and always create a new Notification for each notifications
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  396. # [15:24] <annevk> getCopies()
  397. # [15:24] <annevk> getClones()
  398. # [15:24] <smaug____> since it is a bit odd if (new Notification({})) != Notification.get({}),<add_random_promise_stuff_here>;
  399. # [15:25] <smaug____> yeah, either one
  400. # [15:25] <smaug____> perhaps Clones
  401. # [15:25] <annevk> mkay
  402. # [15:25] <annevk> I guess I also need to clarify that GC should not happen if we have event listeners attached?
  403. # [15:25] <annevk> At least for particular events
  404. # [15:26] <smaug____> right
  405. # [15:26] <annevk> Something similar to http://xhr.spec.whatwg.org/#garbage-collection
  406. # [15:26] <smaug____> WebSocket has something similar too
  407. # [15:27] <annevk> Mkay, we'll go with this I guess
  408. # [15:30] <annevk> smaug____: so the annoying thing with always new is the event listeners I think
  409. # [15:30] <annevk> smaug____: you don't want to add them all over
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  411. # [15:31] <smaug____> well, if you don't want to add new ones, you keep ref to the original Notification or something
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  415. # [15:32] <annevk> smaug____: sure you would, but now you got a copy of that one so you need to make some kind of crappy comparison between the two
  416. # [15:32] <Ms2ger> .isEqualNotification
  417. # [15:32] <annevk> Ms2ger: right :/
  418. # [15:33] <annevk> That's mostly why my design tried to preserve === but I guess once you add an <iframe> or a worker you're already in trouble
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  421. # [15:36] <mathiasbynens> smaug____: just wanted to say i loved your performance in the hobbit 2
  422. # [15:37] <smaug____> I was pretty good
  423. # [15:40] <smaug____> .equals() is a bit annoying
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  426. # [15:41] <smaug____> but works
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  428. # [15:42] <annevk> oh my
  429. # [15:45] <annevk> bah Ms2ger, now I found some buggy wording in isEqualNode
  430. # [15:45] * annevk remembers TabAtkins mentioning he fixed Selectors
  431. # [15:46] <Ms2ger> annevk, the recursive call?
  432. # [15:47] <annevk> Ms2ger: yeah, both it not being in terms of an abstract algorithm and the way it is invoked
  433. # [15:47] <Ms2ger> Clearly I should have caught that :)
  434. # [15:48] <annevk> Ms2ger: I also never really tested this method so now I'm wondering what it does for <input>.value and a <script> that has run versus one that hasn't and such
  435. # [15:48] <Ms2ger> Mm
  436. # [15:48] <Ms2ger> I think nothing special
  437. # [15:49] <Ms2ger> But that's without leaving my sense of logic at the door
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  440. # [15:50] <annevk> .value is ignored :-)
  441. # [15:51] <annevk> But yeah, I guess I'll rewrite this in terms of a concept-node-equals
  442. # [15:51] <Ms2ger> Oh right, the domparsing review
  443. # [15:51] <Ms2ger> Thanks zcorpan
  444. # [15:52] <Ms2ger> annevk, mm, I pretty much did that in servo too :)
  445. # [15:53] * Ms2ger had a good laugh at the compatibility section on https://businessportal.alcatel-lucent.com/
  446. # [15:54] <annevk> Ms2ger: what about all this purported upstream Servo specification review then?!
  447. # [15:56] <Ms2ger> I didn't read well enough :)
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  467. # [16:51] <TabAtkins> annevk: http://dev.w3.org/csswg/selectors/#data-model Just using the DOM as the Selectors element tree in HTML.
  468. # [16:52] <annevk> TabAtkins: the whole "in HTML" thing doesn't make much sense to me
  469. # [16:53] <annevk> TabAtkins: by the team you get to Selectors, there's no HTML
  470. # [16:53] <annevk> time*
  471. # [16:53] <TabAtkins> Yes there is. That's the host document.
  472. # [16:53] <annevk> HTML is syntax, DOM is representation
  473. # [16:53] <TabAtkins> Oh, I see. So something more like - in documents represented by a DOM?
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  475. # [16:53] <annevk> What if I created the whole thing through createDocument() and createElement() and then did matching?
  476. # [16:53] <annevk> Yeah
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  478. # [16:55] <TabAtkins> annevk: Except wouldn't that suggest that Selectors should never mention HTML in any way?
  479. # [16:55] <annevk> TabAtkins: well that is kind of my opinion
  480. # [16:55] <annevk> TabAtkins: you could talk about HTML elements
  481. # [16:55] <TabAtkins> But some of that's completely wrong. The DOM doesn't give the table pseudos any meaning.
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  483. # [16:55] <TabAtkins> Ah, okay.
  484. # [16:55] <annevk> TabAtkins: but you also happily match against elements that are not HTML elements
  485. # [16:55] <TabAtkins> Yeah.
  486. # [16:55] <TabAtkins> All right, I'm satisfied.
  487. # [16:56] <annevk> The way the table pseudos get meaning is because certain elements have additional flags, such as whether those pseudos match :-)
  488. # [16:56] <TabAtkins> I wonder how I should handle XML here. Invoke Infoset? Or just lean on DOM?
  489. # [16:56] <annevk> DOM
  490. # [16:57] <annevk> At least as far as browsers are concerned DOM is the model we use and operate on. Other players can easily map DOM to their own model. That seems easiest
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  522. # [17:16] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
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  526. # [17:22] <annevk> smaug____: any thoughts on https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23268 ?
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  528. # [17:22] <smaug____> mtg
  529. # [17:24] <annevk> smaug____: sounds like a good reason to give it a thought
  530. # [17:24] <smaug____> ha
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  539. # [17:34] <annevk> W3C is now using CORS as example for security propaganda? http://www.w3.org/blog/2014/02/strengthen-web-security-on-the-day-we-fight-back/
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  543. # [17:41] <Domenic_> hehehe
  544. # [17:42] <jgraham> You have to love campaigns about global issues that assume all internet users are from the USA
  545. # [17:43] <marcosc> :)
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  548. # [17:44] <marcosc> I wonder who here works for the NSA :)
  549. # [17:45] <marcosc> "We do not believe any of W3C’s Recommendations were weakened through interference"... it says nothing about WHATWG specs, which no doubt have been meddled with. My money is on MikeSmith as a double agent.
  550. # [17:45] <qrwteyrutiyoup> lol :)
  551. # [17:50] <foolip> Ms2ger: ping?
  552. # [17:51] <foolip> Ms2ger: ok if I do both the things you asked in https://critic.hoppipolla.co.uk/r/767 on separate branches? there's lots of things to fix here but I'd like to keep it to one topic per branch as much as possible...
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  556. # [17:52] <annevk> jgraham: I got excited there for a minute, thought you were talking about global object issues
  557. # [17:52] <Ms2ger> foolip, if it happens, sure :)
  558. # [17:52] <jgraham> annevk: I thought we didn't have global objects, just realms :p
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  563. # [17:54] <foolip> Ms2ger: it will
  564. # [17:54] <SimonSapin> annevk for Protector of the Realm?
  565. # [17:54] <Ms2ger> Thanks :)
  566. # [17:54] <Ms2ger> I thought he didn't stand for re-election?
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  571. # [17:58] <odinho> Hmm. They must've meant CSP.
  572. # [18:00] <gsnedders> Can we make a rule that all initalisms must be universally unique?
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  574. # [18:02] <SimonSapin> haha
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  576. # [18:03] <gsnedders> I keep thinking Communicating Sequential Processes. Which are quite different to the Content Security Policy.
  577. # [18:03] <SimonSapin> "There aren't enough small numbers to meet the many demands made of them."
  578. # [18:03] <jgraham> I keep thinking Continuation Passing Style, so I'm not sure that uniqueness is all it's cracked up to be
  579. # [18:04] <gsnedders> But that's CPS, not CSP!
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  581. # [18:07] <jgraham> Hence uniqueness not being all it's cracked up to be
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  604. # [18:25] <TabAtkins> I kinda like that moment in the conversation when you realize the person you're talking to has absolutely no clue what they're talking about.
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  608. # [18:26] <jgraham> Like the inverse of http://xkcd.com/451/ ?
  609. # [18:26] <TabAtkins> In this case, it was some rando saying that with Blink dropping Regions, he might as well go native.
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  611. # [18:27] <TabAtkins> He citied iOS Regions (they have something *similar* to Regions, but much less complex), then pointed to a web page as an example.
  612. # [18:27] <TabAtkins> Talking about how pretty it was in Safari. I was confused, so I pressed him on how it was native.
  613. # [18:27] <TabAtkins> He responded that he'd just develop apps wrapped around a webview.
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  615. # [18:27] <TabAtkins> /headdesk
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  617. # [18:28] <TabAtkins> (If he's targetting iOS, Blink doesn't matter anyway, because it doesn't even *exist* on the platform. iOS Chrome is just a wrapper around Safari.)
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  619. # [18:29] <TabAtkins> jgraham: If it had been in person, the conversation would have been over in a minute or two.
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  650. # [19:05] <GPHemsley> CPS = Child Protective Services; Crown Prosecution Service
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  652. # [19:07] <Ms2ger> foolip, got more? :)
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  677. # [19:42] <TabAtkins> Anyone in here got Chrome Beta or newer, on Mac or Windows? Mind seeing if this looks messed up? http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?saved=2805
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  680. # [19:44] <TabAtkins> Anyone in here got Chrome Beta or newer, on Mac or Windows? Mind seeing if this looks messed up? http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?saved=2805
  681. # [19:44] <amtiskaw> Looks OK to me in Canary on Windows
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  684. # [19:45] <TabAtkins> Okay, might be just a Linux issue then.
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  688. # [19:46] <TabAtkins> amtiskaw: Just to make sure - you're seeing three distinct character on each line? The characters aren't jumbled up and overlapping each other?
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  693. # [19:47] <amtiskaw> TabAtkins: Yep, all distinct. Rendering matches Firefox Nightly almost exactly, as far as I can see.
  694. # [19:48] <TabAtkins> Thanks!
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  807. # [22:48] <Domenic_> How do you use :has to emulate `a !b ~ c`?
  808. # [22:48] <Domenic_> TabAtkins ^
  809. # [22:48] <TabAtkins> Domenic_: That's almost exactly the same selector we have in the poll.
  810. # [22:49] <TabAtkins> a b:has(~ c)
  811. # [22:49] <Domenic_> Yeah I guess it makes sense. It's a bit weird because I only think of elements as "having" their children
  812. # [22:50] <TabAtkins> They also "have" siblings.
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  814. # [22:50] <Domenic_> wfm
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  816. # [22:53] <Hixie> a b:matches(# ~ c) { }
  817. # [22:53] <Hixie> the real question is how do you do b:matches(a #):matches(b #) with !
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  820. # [22:54] <Hixie> or b:matches(# a):matches(# b) { }
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  825. # [23:00] <Domenic_> Can `p:has(a) ~ .legal { display: block }` be translated to using `!`?
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  848. # [23:53] <TabAtkins> Domenic_: :matches(!p a) ~ .legal
  849. # [23:54] <TabAtkins> Hixie: That's a <b> with both <a> and <b> ancestors?
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  851. # [23:54] <TabAtkins> :matches(a b, b b)
  852. # [23:55] <Hixie> right
  853. # [23:55] <Hixie> yeah, commas can get you some of the way, but they don't scale well
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  856. # [23:56] <Hixie> :matches(!p a) ~ .legal is kinda ugly (why would the p be in the :matches?). p:matches(!* a) ~ .legal is basically the same as p:matches(# a) ~ .legal which is what i proposed years ago
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  858. # [23:57] <TabAtkins> p:matches(!* a) doesn't match anything.
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  860. # [23:57] <Hixie> why not?
  861. # [23:57] <TabAtkins> The subject of the :matches() selector is the thing the :matches() pseudo-class is attached to.
  862. # [23:57] <TabAtkins> p:matches(a) is nonsense.
  863. # [23:58] <Hixie> p:matches(# a) and p:matches(a) are completely different.
  864. # [23:58] <TabAtkins> Only if you're using a different definition of :matches() than the spec has.
  865. # [23:58] <Hixie> (and in my original proposal, p:matches(a) would match any <p> in a document with an <a>)
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  867. # [23:58] <Hixie> (which i still think makes way more sense)
  868. # [23:59] <Hixie> how is :matches(!p a) not equivalent to p:matches(!* a) ?
  869. # Session Close: Wed Feb 12 00:00:00 2014

The end :)