/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2014-02-12 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Feb 12 00:00:00 2014
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] <TabAtkins> In "A:matches(B C)", the C part of the selector refers to the same element as the A part.
  4. # [00:00] <TabAtkins> The subject of the :matches() selector arguments is A.
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  6. # [00:02] <Hixie> sure
  7. # [00:02] <Hixie> and in A:matches(!B C), the subject of the argument is the B, which is the same element as the A
  8. # [00:02] <Hixie> and in the original proposal, A:matches(# C), the # is the subject of the argument, which is the same elmeent as the A
  9. # [00:02] <TabAtkins> Oh, right. Yes, you're right.
  10. # [00:03] <TabAtkins> *:matches(!p a) is identical to p:matches(!* a)
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  12. # [00:03] <Hixie> that's why the original proposal for :matches and :has had two separate pseudo-classes
  13. # [00:04] <Hixie> because in :matches(), the condition was just "there is an element that matches this", without the # it wasn't linked to the element on which the pseudo was found
  14. # [00:04] <Hixie> :has() was then :matches() with an implied "#" at the start of the selector argument
  15. # [00:04] * Krinkle|detached is now known as Krinkle
  16. # [00:04] <Hixie> ("!" is net inferior since it is a subset of the expressiveness, without actually limiting what can be said, it just makes it more verbose, as far as i can tell)
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  84. # [02:19] * GPHemsley wonders what memo he missed about the meaning of #, @, : as search filters
  85. # [02:20] <TabAtkins> If you use an @ in your selector, it matches the Twitter user with that username.
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  87. # [02:22] <GPHemsley> I mean in things like devtools inspector and such
  88. # [02:22] * GPHemsley realized after he said that that this was not the topic of conversation earlier.
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  164. # [06:28] <rniwa> annevk: yt?
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  305. # [09:36] <Ms2ger> Hixie, https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=24628
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  326. # [11:19] <annevk> well, I'm here now, but rniwa is not
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  329. # [11:27] <annevk> Aah, TabAtkins realized I was right due to http://dev.w3.org/csswg/shadow-styling/
  330. # [11:27] <annevk> Ms2ger: is Editing easily maintainable at the moment?
  331. # [11:28] <Ms2ger> I think I have access to it
  332. # [11:30] <annevk> Cool, it's available under CC0
  333. # [11:32] <annevk> I wonder if Hixie is interested in taking it back into HTML
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  346. # [11:58] <annevk> "[Bug 24627] New: [Shadow]: Support disconnected nodes" o_O
  347. # [11:58] <annevk> Glad that was fixed swiftly
  348. # [12:00] <Ms2ger> zcorpan, https://gist.github.com/zcorpan/8952688
  349. # [12:01] <zcorpan> Ms2ger: i noticed i managed to mistype "errorVideo" as "video"
  350. # [12:02] <zcorpan> Ms2ger: i don't understand your comment
  351. # [12:02] <Ms2ger> I don't know what the issue is, but one of the tests clears the page for me
  352. # [12:07] <zcorpan> maybe it does document.write() or something which clears the page after onload
  353. # [12:09] <zcorpan> ok now i've got something working
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  358. # [12:30] <annevk> Sigh. I feel like I'm explaining to everyone how to write specifications
  359. # [12:31] <Ms2ger> Write it down
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  362. # [12:33] <jgraham> Make a specification-specification
  363. # [12:34] <zcorpan> what if other people want to write a specification-specification and get it wrong?
  364. # [12:34] <jgraham> Well we could write a specification-specification-specification to avoid that
  365. # [12:35] <jgraham> "specification-specifications MUST be written by annevk"
  366. # [12:35] <annevk> You guys are not helping
  367. # [12:35] <Ms2ger> :)
  368. # [12:36] <jgraham> annevk: Are you kidding? I found a base case so we could avoid specification^N recursion!
  369. # [12:36] <jgraham> I saved you an infinite amounbt of work!
  370. # [12:36] <annevk> But yes, maybe I should put my comment about monkey patching in a blog post, with a slight elaboration so it also applies to the web perf group
  371. # [12:36] <Ms2ger> You should
  372. # [12:37] <jgraham> The slight elaboration being "btw web-perf wg: you don't read my blog, but this applies to you guys too"?
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  375. # [12:43] <annevk> jgraham: well I guess I still need to tell them about it
  376. # [12:44] <annevk> e.g. http://www.w3.org/TR/resource-timing/ is guilty of this
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  401. # [13:45] <Ms2ger`> zcorpan, r+ https://critic.hoppipolla.co.uk/r/74
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  403. # [13:45] <jgraham> \o/
  404. # [13:46] <jgraham> zcorpan, foolip: Awesome work :)
  405. # [13:46] <zcorpan> woot
  406. # [13:46] <zcorpan> should i click the green button or squash or something first?
  407. # [13:47] <jgraham> I don't mind either way
  408. # [13:47] <jgraham> It's OK to just merge, I think
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  410. # [13:47] <zcorpan> ok done
  411. # [13:50] <Ms2ger`> Didn't even take 10 months!
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  413. # [13:52] <Ms2ger`> zcorpan, r? https://critic.hoppipolla.co.uk/r/744 :)
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  419. # [14:04] <Ms2ger`> foolip, html/semantics/embedded-content-0/the-video-element/video_width_reflect.html might be removable
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  427. # [14:27] <bhanu_> hi, I have submitted a patch for #25571 few days back, I am waiting for someone to review it
  428. # [14:28] <annevk> bhanu_: what bug database?
  429. # [14:29] * Joins: felipeduardo (~felipedua@189.103.152.191)
  430. # [14:29] <bhanu_> annevk : on HTML DOM
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  432. # [14:29] <annevk> bhanu_: pointer?
  433. # [14:30] <bhanu_> range methods not working with detached nodes
  434. # [14:31] <annevk> bhanu_: I meant an actual URL to the issue you're talking about
  435. # [14:31] <annevk> bhanu_: because I'm having a hard time following this
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  438. # [14:32] <bhanu__> annevk: https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=25571
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  440. # [14:34] <annevk> bhanu_: #whatwg is not #webkit, though reading that bug I wonder why you think the specification is wrong
  441. # [14:34] <zcorpan> TabAtkins: i get "FATAL ERROR: Couldn't find 'respimg-usecases' in bibliography data." in https://api.csswg.org/bikeshed/ with https://github.com/ResponsiveImagesCG/picture-element/blob/gh-pages/index.src.html as input
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  446. # [14:38] <zcorpan> bhanu__: you had asked earlier whether to implement stuff from dom2. both annevk and i said you should ignore dom2. what gives?
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  448. # [14:41] <bhanu__> annevk: I think we had mail communication on this issue few days back, and I came to know that we should only follow the latest one, but when I saw the chromium source code, I got confused
  449. # [14:42] <annevk> bhanu__: I see
  450. # [14:43] <annevk> bhanu__: Anything in particular that was confusing? You should only have to read http://dom.spec.whatwg.org/
  451. # [14:46] <bhanu__> annevk: Going by one is never a confusion, I could completely follow http://dom.spec.whatwg.org/ ignoring what chromium has done in their source code which will fix the issue.
  452. # [14:48] <annevk> bhanu__: that sounds good
  453. # [14:48] <annevk> bhanu__: Chrome has a bunch of issues with "disconnected" nodes
  454. # [14:48] <annevk> bhanu__: so much even that they baked their own silly assumptions into new specs
  455. # [14:48] <annevk> :/
  456. # [14:49] <bhanu__> annevk, zcorpan: thank you for your help
  457. # [14:49] <annevk> bhanu__: thank you for fixing bugs
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  462. # [15:03] <annevk> I cannot believe I am writing this out. Why monkey patching is bad should be so obvious!!1!
  463. # [15:09] <Ms2ger`> Ha
  464. # [15:09] <Ms2ger`> Remember when we did it? :)
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  467. # [15:15] <annevk> Ms2ger`: we did?
  468. # [15:15] <annevk> Ms2ger`: oh, Web Forms 2.0? :-)
  469. # [15:15] <Ms2ger`> For example :)
  470. # [15:15] <annevk> Ms2ger`: it was a disaster
  471. # [15:15] <Ms2ger`> dom xpath comes to mind
  472. # [15:15] <Ms2ger`> Or plain xpath
  473. # [15:15] <Ms2ger`> Whatever that bit was
  474. # [15:16] <annevk> I hope that dies at some point. Otherwise we'll need to fix that too. There's an even an additional Node type there that apparently ties into attributes?
  475. # [15:16] <annevk> Ms2ger`: http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/DOM_XPath
  476. # [15:17] <annevk> Although that page does not deal with the new node type
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  478. # [15:19] <jgraham> annevk: I plan to monkey patch your blog post so that every time it reads "monkey patching", it instead reads "not monkey patching"
  479. # [15:19] <annevk> jgraham: I'll monkey patch your desk
  480. # [15:19] <Ms2ger`> Yeah, I know that page, I wrote it :)
  481. # [15:20] <zewt> don't run that monkey patch on itself, you'll destroy the universe
  482. # [15:20] <jgraham> annevk: With a real monkey?
  483. # [15:21] <annevk> jgraham: no spoilers
  484. # [15:21] <zewt> i guess monkeys need help quitting too
  485. # [15:22] <annevk> I guess I'll just post it and then update it per comments here
  486. # [15:23] <annevk> http://annevankesteren.nl/2014/02/monkey-patch
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  489. # [15:31] <annevk> Why do the crypto people keep coming back to me talking about CORS?
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  498. # [15:55] <annevk> Because they don't understand structured clones is the answer it seems
  499. # [15:55] <annevk> It is very silly
  500. # [15:56] <gsnedders> Well why aren't they explained better?
  501. # [15:56] <gsnedders> If they keep on coming back to you, that implies you haven't explained it well enough!
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  503. # [15:57] <annevk> I'm not sure, I have the feeling someone with half a clue hears origin and things "oh CORS!" and then all the people with less of a clue start asking about it
  504. # [15:57] <annevk> thinks*
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  539. # [17:01] <TabAtkins> zcorpan: Did you grab *just* that file? There's also a biblio.json file in the repo that you need.
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  541. # [17:03] <arv> annevk: Is there a spec bug related to enumerability of named properties in HTMLCollection?
  542. # [17:04] <annevk> arv: I just fixed it
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  544. # [17:04] <annevk> arv: last commit has a pointer
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  546. # [17:05] <arv> annevk: thanks
  547. # [17:07] <arv> annevk: If bz and Christophe is happy with that I'm happy
  548. # [17:08] <annevk> bz has a patch for Gecko he said
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  550. # [17:08] <annevk> arv: btw, if we add iterators, should they make snapshots? so live becomes static?
  551. # [17:08] <annevk> arv: we're leanings towards yes, makes for-of and such nicer
  552. # [17:08] <annevk> leaning*
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  579. # [18:02] <Jabberwock> Hello, all. Could someone point me to some documentation regarding websocket security testing? (and any security concerns)
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  590. # [18:16] <Hixie> annevk: i really don't have the bandwidth to take over editing again right now, but it'd be fantastic if someone did
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  592. # [18:16] <annevk> Hixie: yeah figured
  593. # [18:16] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
  594. # [18:16] <Hixie> long-term i'd love to take it up again
  595. # [18:17] <Hixie> i mean, that was the original plan and all
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  599. # [18:21] <Hixie> dglazkov: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=24312#c19 implies you're supposed to be telling me things
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  610. # [18:29] <dglazkov> Hixie: annevk was doing great work at coordination! :)
  611. # [18:30] <annevk> dglazkov: I'm kind of tired of being a project manager for custom elements though
  612. # [18:30] <marcosc> annevk: it's all a ploy to convert you into a middle manager. Didn't you get that tie for xmas?
  613. # [18:30] <annevk> at least, my job is to write specs, not clean up other specs
  614. # [18:30] <dglazkov> Hixie: annevk is right, there needs to be gooder coordination here.
  615. # [18:31] <dglazkov> annevk: can I fix it by making you the editor of custom elements?
  616. # [18:31] <marcosc> aaawww snap!
  617. # [18:31] <annevk> dglazkov: well that's what it feels like, apart from writing the prose :p
  618. # [18:32] <dglazkov> annevk: btw, I am super-grateful for your work.
  619. # [18:33] <dglazkov> and filing bugs
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  621. # [18:33] <dglazkov> I've been caught in the storm of basically answering emails all day, and haven't made a lot of progress myself
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  625. # [18:35] <annevk> It does feel like we're getting closer
  626. # [18:38] <dglazkov> annevk: asymptotically approaching it, yup
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  628. # [18:39] <annevk> dglazkov: I'm back to wondering why the hooks are related to the document with a view rather than simple insert and delete as the DOM has, but it seems that might have been based on bugs in Chrome
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  630. # [18:40] <annevk> dglazkov: and at that point we can look at the callbacks HTML has for insert/remove and see how "sync" they need to be and if they can be done at the point we want them to be done for custom elements
  631. # [18:40] <dglazkov> annevk: what bugs in Chrome?
  632. # [18:40] <annevk> dglazkov: around disconnected nodes not being proper trees
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  634. # [18:45] <dglazkov> annevk: I don't think disconnected nodes was a consideration at that time. Originally, that callback was born out of the element's need to have a hint at whether they're being shown on screen. esprehn had the example of <google-maps> element wanting to know when to start drawing their WebGLey stuff.
  635. # [18:45] <esprehn> back then <template>'s contents also issued callbacks, so it was even more important
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  637. # [18:46] <annevk> But the point of this exercise is also to actually expose the primitives and be able to implement "native" elements in terms of this right?
  638. # [18:46] <annevk> At which point you need to study what hooks they are using at the moment and if they can be refactored somehow
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  640. # [18:46] <esprehn> <template> no longer issues callbacks, so we could possibly make this simpler if we give you an easy way to tell if you're in an import (imports also have a defaultView so a component can't just if (!defaultView) return;
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  642. # [18:48] <annevk> esprehn: the check is node.ownerDocument === document && document.defaultView or some such, rniwa mentioned it in the bug
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  644. # [18:48] <esprehn> annevk: that's not enough, what if you move across an iframe boundary?
  645. # [18:49] <annevk> esprehn: I don't understand
  646. # [18:49] <esprehn> you do node.ownerDocument === document, but if you're inserted into a document in an iframe that check will be against the other window
  647. # [18:49] <esprehn> it'll be false, and your callback will abort incorrectly
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  650. # [18:51] <annevk> Okay, in any event, we could expose a check for that, but basing the callbacks around that seems incorrect given the precedent we have for HTML elements
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  652. # [18:52] <esprehn> what precedent?
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  654. # [18:55] <annevk> esprehn: the DOM exposes (sync) node inserted/removed callbacks that HTML elements use
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  656. # [18:57] <esprehn> do you want callbacks that fire in detached subtrees too?
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  661. # [18:58] <esprehn> we found that excessively spammy, and not what developers wanted. I'd support making the callbacks "inserted" and "removed" and they act when you enter/leave any document tree
  662. # [18:58] <annevk> esprehn: consider e.g. implementing <select> or <video> yourself
  663. # [18:58] <annevk> esprehn: you need to know when new child elements are inserted and update yourself (or do that from the child elements, which can be custom too)
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  665. # [18:59] <esprehn> annevk: MutationObservers let you observe child changes
  666. # [18:59] <annevk> esprehn: not in a way that allows for re-implementing HTML elements
  667. # [18:59] <esprehn> yes
  668. # [18:59] <annevk> esprehn: no, the delivery is too late
  669. # [18:59] <esprehn> Inside any getter on <select> you call takeRecords() and update the state
  670. # [18:59] <esprehn> that's fine, querying the state forces a sync takeRecords(), just like offsetTop forces a layout
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  673. # [19:01] <annevk> hmm interesting, I wonder if that would break anything
  674. # [19:05] <annevk> esprehn: can you bring that up in the "Extending Mutation Observers to address use cases of" thread?
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  676. # [19:06] <esprehn> annevk: sure
  677. # [19:07] <annevk> esprehn: the amount of callbacks for "node is removed" seems worrying though http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/ident?i=ContentRemoved
  678. # [19:08] <esprehn> annevk: internally we react synchronously usually, but as far as the page is concerned it could have been a MutationObsever and a takeRecords() in the getter
  679. # [19:08] <annevk> esprehn: e.g. I could append two Text nodes to a <style>, remove one text node, then do getComputedStyle(), which would then have to ask <style> to do takeRecords() but that might happen as part of the general flush I suppose
  680. # [19:09] <annevk> esprehn: "in the getter" is nice when it's easy
  681. # [19:09] <esprehn> any getter causes a state synchronization, so getComputedStyle() would force the <style> to synchronize with it's records
  682. # [19:09] <esprehn> since getComputedStyle() conceptually calls style.sheet
  683. # [19:10] <annevk> yeah, I guess I can see how that might work
  684. # [19:10] <annevk> hopefully the others agree
  685. # [19:11] <esprehn> it shouldn't be any harder than making all rendering queries force a style recalc or a layout like offsetTop or getComputedStyle(...).color
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  702. # [19:30] <annevk> I wonder what the best way would be to define the DOM meanwhile
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  706. # [19:37] <annevk> In terms of mutation records and takeRecords() could be interesting, but also somewhat verbose
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  748. # [20:40] <arv> annevk: Iterators of live node lists... Maybe not add them at all to discourage people from using live node lists?
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  750. # [20:40] <annevk> arv: people will use getElementsByTagName() and then try for-of
  751. # [20:40] <arv> annevk: :'(
  752. # [20:40] <annevk> arv: in fact everyone is asking for HTMLCollection and NodeList and such to have iterator and Gecko already has it
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  754. # [20:41] <arv> annevk: I think we should keep them live. ArrayIterator is live
  755. # [20:42] <arv> annevk: Doing `NodeList.prototype[Symbol.iterator] = Array.prototype[Symbol.iterator]` works fine with live lists
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  758. # [20:43] <annevk> arv: added that to https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=17648#c6
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  760. # [20:44] <arv> annevk: thanks
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  839. # [22:33] * SamB_ isn't finding https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/editing/raw-file/tip/editing.html very easy to read without it's proper styling
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  862. # [23:10] <TabAtkins> SamB_: Complain to Hixie to support https on whatwg.org.
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  864. # [23:10] <SamB_> Hixie: consider yourself complained to
  865. # [23:11] * Hixie looks into it
  866. # [23:11] <Hixie> (though the real solution would be for someone to take over editing that spec and host it somewhere like whatwg.org)
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  871. # [23:18] * SamB_ is now known as SamB
  872. # [23:19] <SamB> should it be marked "orphaned"?
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  875. # [23:19] <Hixie> SamB: ok, i need a cert to make this work. can you provide me with a cert? :-)
  876. # [23:20] <SamB> maybe TabAtkins's plan wasn't the best after all
  877. # [23:20] <Hixie> right now i have it set up as a self-signed cert
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  879. # [23:21] <Hixie> but that doesn't solve your problem
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  881. # [23:21] <Hixie> oh wait, the page is loading it straight from http://
  882. # [23:21] <Hixie> so that won't help anyway
  883. # [23:22] <SamB> yeah, true
  884. # [23:22] <SamB> I thought that's what you meant when you said "that doesn't solve your problem"
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  887. # [23:22] <TabAtkins> Yeah, the spec needs to be changed to use https, *and* whatwg.org needs to support https.
  888. # [23:22] <TabAtkins> It doesn't, currently.
  889. # [23:22] <SamB> because I could clearly teach *my* browser that it's okay to accept the self-signed cert
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  901. # [23:40] <annevk-cloud> Someone maintaining it would be great
  902. # [23:41] <annevk-cloud> Maybe if someone takes over some of my smaller specs
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  905. # [23:42] <Hixie> man i wish you had posted that blog post on G+ just so that I could +1 the hell out of it
  906. # [23:43] <TabAtkins> You can link to it from your own g+ post, then +1 it yourself.
  907. # [23:43] <Hixie> that sounds like work
  908. # [23:45] <Hixie> lol
  909. # [23:45] <Hixie> i tried getting an ssl cert with startssl.com, since they have free 1 year certs
  910. # [23:45] <Hixie> but they asked for a phone number and i don't have one
  911. # [23:46] <Hixie> so i gave them +1 555 555 5555
  912. # [23:46] <Hixie> then they e-mailed me, "we need a valid number", so i said i didn't have one and which would they suggest
  913. # [23:46] <Hixie> to which they replied, and i quote, "you parent's"
  914. # [23:46] * Hixie may have misjudged the level of professionalism involved with these free certs
  915. # [23:46] <TabAtkins> Hahahahaha
  916. # [23:48] * jonlee_|afk is now known as jonlee_
  917. # [23:48] <Hixie> ooh, another reply
  918. # [23:48] <Hixie> "So [...] If someone wants to reach you, they can't?"
  919. # [23:48] <Hixie> um, YOU ARE REACHING ME RIGHT NOW
  920. # [23:49] * heycam|away is now known as heycam
  921. # [23:50] <Hixie> gotta give them one thing, they're pretty responsive
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  928. # [23:53] <Hixie> oh hey, i convinced them
  929. # [23:53] <Hixie> excellent
  930. # [23:53] <gavinc> ... yeah, they are in fact a very decent cert provider that's done a better job checking things out then plenty of them.
  931. # [23:54] <Hixie> holy jeepers, a <keygen> element
  932. # [23:55] <Hixie> woah, hold on, how the heck did they install a new user cert
  933. # [23:55] * Krinkle|detached is now known as Krinkle
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  935. # [23:57] <gavinc> <keygen>... that's what it does
  936. # [23:57] <Hixie> i thought that uploaded a cert to them
  937. # [23:58] <Hixie> how did they cause my browser to install the one they sent back?
  938. # [23:58] <gavinc> No, you generated a private key, and sent them the public
  939. # [23:59] <gavinc> the private cert is installed locally
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  941. # Session Close: Thu Feb 13 00:00:00 2014

The end :)