/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2014-02-13 / end

Options:

  1. # Session Start: Thu Feb 13 00:00:00 2014
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] <gavinc> private key is just added to the local keystore
  4. # [00:01] <gavinc> they just send back the signed client cert
  5. # [00:01] <annevk-cloud> Hixie defined the element…
  6. # [00:01] <gavinc> yeah that's why I'm confused?
  7. # [00:01] <TabAtkins> If you think that "defined X" means "understands X permanently", I have some bad news for you.
  8. # [00:02] * gavinc doesn't
  9. # [00:02] * Joins: shaunbaker (~shaunbake@97e69e6b.skybroadband.com)
  10. # [00:02] * Quits: reyre (~reyre@bas1-streetsville52-1177963356.dsl.bell.ca) (Remote host closed the connection)
  11. # [00:04] <Hixie> (i barely understood it then)
  12. # [00:04] <Hixie> so it's the "they just send back the signed client cert" part i have a problem with
  13. # [00:04] <Hixie> how do they "send it back"?
  14. # [00:06] <annevk-cloud> New 2014 goal: get bz to spell it URL
  15. # [00:06] * annevk-cloud does no get <keygen> either, to be clear
  16. # [00:09] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@corp-nat.p2p.sfo1.mozilla.com)
  17. # [00:09] * Quits: TuRnaD0 (~Thunderbi@x1-6-e0-46-9a-1e-fe-ca.cpe.webspeed.dk) (Remote host closed the connection)
  18. # [00:10] * heycam is now known as heycam|away
  19. # [00:10] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@corp-nat.p2p.sfo1.mozilla.com) (Client Quit)
  20. # [00:11] * jonlee_ is now known as jonlee_|afk
  21. # [00:11] * Quits: zdobersek (~zan@46.19.141.158) (Quit: Leaving.)
  22. # [00:11] * Quits: sgalineau (~sylvaing@c-71-227-171-86.hsd1.wa.comcast.net) (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com)
  23. # [00:11] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@corp-nat.p2p.sfo1.mozilla.com)
  24. # [00:12] * Quits: satazor (~satazor@80.78.37.188.rev.vodafone.pt) (Remote host closed the connection)
  25. # [00:12] * Joins: satazor (~satazor@80.78.37.188.rev.vodafone.pt)
  26. # [00:14] * Joins: weinig (~weinig@17.114.218.135)
  27. # [00:15] * Quits: JosephSilber (~Joseph@ool-44c3e80a.static.optonline.net) (Quit: Leaving)
  28. # [00:15] <TabAtkins> Random fun element demo: http://maklesoft.github.io/shape-shifter/
  29. # [00:16] * jorendorff_away is now known as jorendorff
  30. # [00:17] * Quits: satazor (~satazor@80.78.37.188.rev.vodafone.pt) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  31. # [00:21] * heycam|away is now known as heycam
  32. # [00:21] <SimonSapin> startssl uses client certs for auth (no password)
  33. # [00:21] <zewt> yeah, that site is terrible
  34. # [00:21] <SimonSapin> I recently renewed a server cert, but my client cert had expired so I had to create a new account
  35. # [00:22] <zewt> so the first thing everyone on that site does is create an account and get immediately locked out of it because they didn't create a cert before they logged out
  36. # [00:23] <zewt> so i decided i'd rather pay a couple bucks for a cert than deal with a site with that little common sense, heh
  37. # [00:23] * Joins: jacobolus (~jacobolus@70-36-196-50.dsl.static.sonic.net)
  38. # [00:24] <gavinc> So by using SSL to secure an CA provider they demonstrated to you that they didn't have common sense?
  39. # [00:24] <jamesr__> Hixie: why is the storage mutex still in the spec?
  40. # [00:24] <jamesr__> has anyone indicated that they'll ever implement it?
  41. # [00:24] <zewt> by having an auth system that lets you get locked out that trivially in the normal first-time-user UI flow
  42. # [00:25] * Joins: hasather (~hasather@80.91.33.141)
  43. # [00:25] <jamesr__> another developer was just confused by trying to interpret what the storage mutex does
  44. # [00:25] <jamesr__> which in practice is absolutely nothing, since nobody implements or will ever implement it
  45. # [00:27] <Hixie> jamesr__: implementations that don't implement the storage mutex will corrupt user data.
  46. # [00:27] <Hixie> jamesr__: so...
  47. # [00:28] <TabAtkins> Which is what all implementations do, and plan to continue doing.
  48. # [00:29] <Hixie> i'm not writing a spec where the only valid implementation corrupts user data.
  49. # [00:29] <Hixie> it's fine if it gives two options, fast and corrupting vs slow and safe, but removing the "safe" option is silly.
  50. # [00:30] * Quits: hasather (~hasather@80.91.33.141) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
  51. # [00:30] <Hixie> having said that, i'm happy to make the spec clearer about the fact that all current UAs ignore it, if that would help
  52. # [00:30] <Hixie> in other news, https://whatwg.org now has a real cert
  53. # [00:30] <Hixie> so https://www.whatwg.org/style/specification should work now
  54. # [00:31] <Hixie> at least for the next year
  55. # [00:31] <Hixie> then i have to do all this nonsense again
  56. # [00:32] * Quits: encryptd_fractal (~mfrawley@66-188-99-174.static.ftbg.wi.charter.com) (Quit: Leaving.)
  57. # [00:36] <annevk-cloud> We plan to implement it in Servo
  58. # [00:36] * Joins: taijeen (~taijeen@p4FF84CFD.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
  59. # [00:36] <annevk-cloud> The storage mutex
  60. # [00:39] <SimonSapin> (do we?)
  61. # [00:41] * Quits: taijeen (~taijeen@p4FF84CFD.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  62. # [00:42] * Joins: newtron_ (~newtron@199.71.174.204)
  63. # [00:43] <annevk-cloud> roc said so at one point
  64. # [00:46] * Quits: newtron (~newtron@199.71.174.203) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  65. # [00:46] * Quits: shaunbaker (~shaunbake@97e69e6b.skybroadband.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
  66. # [00:46] * Quits: newtron_ (~newtron@199.71.174.204) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  67. # [00:52] * Joins: ap (~ap@2620:149:4:304:9103:f301:1cc4:3b9e)
  68. # [00:53] * Joins: reyre (~reyre@bas1-streetsville52-1279283565.dsl.bell.ca)
  69. # [00:53] * Quits: reyre (~reyre@bas1-streetsville52-1279283565.dsl.bell.ca) (Remote host closed the connection)
  70. # [00:55] * Joins: diffalot (~diffalot@c-76-107-128-104.hsd1.ms.comcast.net)
  71. # [00:56] * Joins: inimino` (~inimino@oftn/board/inimino)
  72. # [00:56] * Quits: othermaciej (~mjs@17.114.216.108) (Quit: othermaciej)
  73. # [00:58] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@17.114.216.108)
  74. # [01:00] * Quits: weinig (~weinig@17.114.218.135) (Quit: weinig)
  75. # [01:00] <jamesr__> Hixie: do you want to spec what browsers do or what you want them to do?
  76. # [01:04] <jamesr__> if you want to say "all major UAs ignore this section of the spec and always will" then go ahead
  77. # [01:07] * jorendorff is now known as jorendorff_away
  78. # [01:09] <Hixie> i _want_ to spec what i want them to do and then have them follow it :-P
  79. # [01:09] <Hixie> but what i want is hardly relevant here
  80. # [01:09] <Hixie> jamesr__: the spec does describe what browsers do, since it gives two options (corrupt data, or use locks)
  81. # [01:11] <zewt> sounds like it's really describing just one thing, since "use locks" is a subset of "corrupt data" ("corrupt N bytes of data" where N might be 0)
  82. # [01:11] <zewt> in other words, it may as well be non-normative "it'd be nice if you did this" instead of hand-wavey normative language
  83. # [01:12] <Hixie> ?
  84. # [01:12] * Joins: karlcow (~karl@nerval.la-grange.net)
  85. # [01:12] <Hixie> "corrupt data" is not the same as "don't corrupt data"...
  86. # [01:12] <zewt> no, it's a superset of it
  87. # [01:12] * Quits: karlcow (~karl@nerval.la-grange.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  88. # [01:12] <Hixie> no, they're mutually exclusive
  89. # [01:13] * Joins: karlcow (~karl@nerval.la-grange.net)
  90. # [01:13] <zewt> the amount of data corrupted might happen to be zero, which is equivalent to not corrupting data
  91. # [01:14] <Hixie> that's like saying that stabbing yourself is a superset of not stabbing yourself because you might miss.
  92. # [01:14] <zewt> i guess the real sort-of-detectable distinguishing point has nothing to do with corruption (or not) of data, but of scripts blocking each other in different tabs
  93. # [01:14] <Hixie> the corruption is quite detectable...
  94. # [01:15] <Hixie> the only reason the storage mutex exists is to provide an interoperable way to avoid corruption
  95. # [01:15] * Quits: benvie (~bbenvie@corp-nat.p2p.sfo1.mozilla.com) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  96. # [01:17] <zewt> put differently, is there something the storage mutex option allows browsers to do that they would otherwise be prohibited from doing?
  97. # [01:17] * Quits: jeremyj (~jeremyj@17.202.44.231) (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
  98. # [01:18] <Hixie> no, it prohibits things, it doesn't allow things
  99. # [01:18] * Quits: scor (scor@drupal.org/user/52142/view) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  100. # [01:18] <Hixie> it defines observable behaviour
  101. # [01:19] <Hixie> that is required (if the browser opts in to it)
  102. # [01:19] <TabAtkins> MikeSmith: I'm trying to fix the Editing spec to refer to its stylesheet over https, now that Hixie fixed that issue. But I get access denied when pushing to the /hg/editing/ repo. Can you fix this?
  103. # [01:19] <Hixie> (and which really should be required of all browsers, but some vendors feel data corruption is no big deal compared to performance of multiple similar-origin tabs)
  104. # [01:19] <Hixie> TabAtkins: thanks for doing that
  105. # [01:20] <TabAtkins> np
  106. # [01:20] <zewt> well, that's the point: giving an option B that does nothing but prohibit things allowed by option A isn't an extra option; they can do it anyway, since if you implement B, you've implemented the requirements of A too
  107. # [01:20] <zewt> anyway
  108. # [01:21] <zewt> the consequences aren't explosions, just a bit of noise in the spec
  109. # [01:21] * Quits: jacobolus (~jacobolus@70-36-196-50.dsl.static.sonic.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  110. # [01:22] * Joins: scor (scor@nat/acquia/x-llknywuqlrwwgmwm)
  111. # [01:22] * Quits: scor (scor@nat/acquia/x-llknywuqlrwwgmwm) (Changing host)
  112. # [01:22] * Joins: scor (scor@drupal.org/user/52142/view)
  113. # [01:23] * Joins: benvie (~bbenvie@204.28.118.69)
  114. # [01:23] <Hixie> zewt: there are multiple ways to implement not corrupting data, certainly, but some would be detectably not the same as what the spec allows
  115. # [01:23] <Hixie> zewt: (for example, you could do the storage mutex thing but not implement the yield API)
  116. # [01:25] * Quits: sicking (~sicking@corp-nat.p2p.sfo1.mozilla.com) (Quit: sicking)
  117. # [01:25] <Hixie> jamesr__: (if you do want something in the spec, please file a big at http://whatwg.org/newbug and i'll get to it asap -- i'm in the middle of the focus model rewrite so i can't do it right now)
  118. # [01:27] * Krinkle is now known as Krinkle|detached
  119. # [01:28] * Quits: benvie (~bbenvie@204.28.118.69)
  120. # [01:31] * Joins: benvie (~bbenvie@204.28.118.69)
  121. # [01:33] <jamesr__> bug filed. a spec's no place for wishful thinking, as sad as the current state is
  122. # [01:34] * Joins: sicking (~sicking@corp-nat.p2p.sfo1.mozilla.com)
  123. # [01:43] * Joins: [[zzz]] (~zz]]@node-1952.pool-101-109.dynamic.totbb.net)
  124. # [01:46] * Quits: [[zz]] (~zz]]@node-o3a.pool-101-108.dynamic.totbb.net) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
  125. # [01:46] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachy@cm-84.215.104.248.getinternet.no) (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
  126. # [01:48] * Joins: say2joe (~say2joe@209-253-225-97.ip.mcleodusa.net)
  127. # [01:49] * Quits: othermaciej (~mjs@17.114.216.108) (Quit: othermaciej)
  128. # [01:49] * Joins: reyre (~reyre@bas1-streetsville52-1279283565.dsl.bell.ca)
  129. # [01:51] * Quits: riddle (riddle@us.yunix.net) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  130. # [01:52] * Quits: say2joe (~say2joe@209-253-225-97.ip.mcleodusa.net) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  131. # [01:52] * Joins: roven (~roven@78-20-24-80.access.telenet.be)
  132. # [01:54] * Quits: reyre (~reyre@bas1-streetsville52-1279283565.dsl.bell.ca) (Remote host closed the connection)
  133. # [01:56] * Joins: reyre (~reyre@bas1-streetsville52-1279283565.dsl.bell.ca)
  134. # [01:57] * Quits: roven (~roven@78-20-24-80.access.telenet.be) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  135. # [01:57] * Joins: mven (~mven@ip72-193-85-64.lv.lv.cox.net)
  136. # [01:58] * Quits: ap (~ap@2620:149:4:304:9103:f301:1cc4:3b9e) (Quit: ap)
  137. # [02:02] * Quits: jeffreyatw (~jeffreyat@173.247.197.10) (Quit: jeffreyatw)
  138. # [02:04] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@corp-nat.p2p.sfo1.mozilla.com) (Quit: tantek)
  139. # [02:04] * Joins: jdaggett (~jdaggett@103.5.142.48)
  140. # [02:05] * Quits: reyre (~reyre@bas1-streetsville52-1279283565.dsl.bell.ca) (Remote host closed the connection)
  141. # [02:07] * Quits: hoobdeebla (~hoobdeebl@ip70-190-42-239.ph.ph.cox.net)
  142. # [02:13] * Joins: jeremyj (~jeremyj@17.202.44.231)
  143. # [02:18] * Quits: llkats (~llkats@206.169.83.230) (Remote host closed the connection)
  144. # [02:18] * Quits: sicking (~sicking@corp-nat.p2p.sfo1.mozilla.com) (Quit: sicking)
  145. # [02:19] * Joins: reyre (~reyre@bas1-streetsville52-1279283565.dsl.bell.ca)
  146. # [02:23] * Joins: hasather (~hasather@80.91.33.141)
  147. # [02:24] * Quits: reyre (~reyre@bas1-streetsville52-1279283565.dsl.bell.ca) (Remote host closed the connection)
  148. # [02:27] * Quits: seventh (seventh@185.29.164.226) (Remote host closed the connection)
  149. # [02:27] * Quits: hasather (~hasather@80.91.33.141) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
  150. # [02:28] * Joins: riddle (riddle@us.yunix.net)
  151. # [02:32] * Joins: ehsan (~ehsan@24-52-243-72.cable.teksavvy.com)
  152. # [02:35] * Quits: jeremyj (~jeremyj@17.202.44.231) (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
  153. # [02:35] * Quits: benv (~benv@38.104.194.126) (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
  154. # [02:37] * Joins: taijeen (~taijeen@p4FF84CFD.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
  155. # [02:39] * Quits: scor (scor@drupal.org/user/52142/view) (Quit: scor)
  156. # [02:40] * Joins: jeremyj (~jeremyj@17.202.44.231)
  157. # [02:41] * Joins: benv (~benv@38.104.194.126)
  158. # [02:41] * Quits: benv (~benv@38.104.194.126) (Client Quit)
  159. # [02:42] * Quits: taijeen (~taijeen@p4FF84CFD.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
  160. # [02:42] * Joins: jacobolus (~jacobolus@50-0-248-103.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net)
  161. # [02:54] * Joins: nessy (~silviapf@101.164.144.53)
  162. # [02:56] * Quits: beowulf (~sstewart@host109-158-229-141.range109-158.btcentralplus.com) (Quit: Lost terminal)
  163. # [02:58] * Krinkle|detached is now known as Krinkle
  164. # [03:00] * Quits: smaug____ (~chatzilla@a91-154-42-30.elisa-laajakaista.fi) (Read error: Operation timed out)
  165. # [03:00] * Joins: newtron (~newtron@206-248-163-123.dsl.teksavvy.com)
  166. # [03:00] * Quits: newtron (~newtron@206-248-163-123.dsl.teksavvy.com) (Client Quit)
  167. # [03:03] * heycam is now known as heycam|away
  168. # [03:06] * Joins: gavin__ (~gavin@people1.scl3.mozilla.com)
  169. # [03:08] * Joins: llkats (~llkats@c-67-188-8-143.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  170. # [03:11] * Joins: danielwrobert1 (~Adium@wsip-68-15-24-46.sd.sd.cox.net)
  171. # [03:11] * Quits: fredy (~fredy@snf-8914.vm.okeanos.grnet.gr) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  172. # Session Close: Thu Feb 13 03:14:49 2014
  173. #
  174. # Session Start: Thu Feb 13 03:14:49 2014
  175. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  176. # [03:14] * Disconnected
  177. # [15:29] * Attempting to rejoin channel #whatwg
  178. # [15:29] * Rejoined channel #whatwg
  179. # [15:29] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ & http://logbot.glob.com.au/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  180. # [15:29] * Set by smaug____!~chatzilla@GGZYYCCCXVIII.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi on Wed Mar 21 17:14:24
  181. # [15:29] <SimonSapin> yoav: yes!
  182. # [15:30] <SimonSapin> https://github.com/SimonSapin/css-parsing-tests
  183. # [15:30] <SimonSapin> and the ED is more up-to-date: http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-syntax/
  184. # [15:30] * Quits: scrollback (scrollback@conference/jsconf/x-tonesvqdqsqtsphr) (Remote host closed the connection)
  185. # [15:30] * Joins: shaunbaker (~shaunbake@brick-lane.lbi.co.uk)
  186. # [15:31] * Joins: 16WAAOWTJ (scrollback@conference/jsconf/x-ynuqfkdbogmsuynm)
  187. # [15:31] <yoav> SimonSapin: Awesome!!! Thanks :)
  188. # [15:32] <SimonSapin> yoav: these tests are not suitable for a W3C test suit since the tokenizer is not exposed to the platform, but if you’re writing code in an implementation that’s not a problem
  189. # [15:33] <SimonSapin> you’ll need to write a test harness to convert whatever memory representation of tokens/component values you have to or from the tests’s JSON structure
  190. # [15:33] <yoav> SimonSapin: Yeah, I need them for unit testing, so it's perfect
  191. # [15:33] <SimonSapin> feel free to ping me or write a github issue
  192. # [15:34] * Joins: ehsan (~ehsan@24-52-243-72.cable.teksavvy.com)
  193. # [15:35] * Quits: smaug____ (~chatzilla@a91-154-42-30.elisa-laajakaista.fi) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  194. # [15:36] * Quits: 16WAAOWTJ (scrollback@conference/jsconf/x-ynuqfkdbogmsuynm) (Remote host closed the connection)
  195. # [15:36] * Joins: 36DACHNX6 (scrollback@conference/jsconf/x-glwmyjcixlnxiyri)
  196. # [15:37] * Quits: 36DACHNX6 (scrollback@conference/jsconf/x-glwmyjcixlnxiyri) (Remote host closed the connection)
  197. # [15:38] * Joins: 16WAAOWWZ (scrollback@conference/jsconf/x-surgxljybnevrfbj)
  198. # [15:38] * Quits: deniak (~denis@35.133.122.109.rev.sfr.net) (Quit: Bye)
  199. # [15:39] * Quits: ehsan (~ehsan@24-52-243-72.cable.teksavvy.com) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
  200. # [15:49] <Domenic_> I always say "emm ess two gee-er"
  201. # [15:49] <Domenic_> (... in my head)
  202. # [15:52] * Joins: reyre (~reyre@142.204.133.18)
  203. # [15:56] * Joins: ehsan (~ehsan@24-52-243-72.cable.teksavvy.com)
  204. # [15:58] <GPHemsley> yeah, that's roughly what I do
  205. # [15:58] <GPHemsley> the few times I've said it aloud, I generally provide multiple pronunciations
  206. # [16:04] <zcorpan> miss-two-ger, emm-ess-two-gee-er, miss-toger, em... es... two... gee... er. yep, him
  207. # [16:04] <Ms2ger> - Who?
  208. # [16:06] * jorendorff is now known as jorendorff_away
  209. # [16:07] * Quits: ehsan (~ehsan@24-52-243-72.cable.teksavvy.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
  210. # [16:12] * Joins: kuatsure (~kuatsure@74.83.252.220)
  211. # [16:15] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@90-230-218-37-no135.tbcn.telia.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
  212. # [16:18] * Quits: roven (~roven@78-20-24-80.access.telenet.be) (Remote host closed the connection)
  213. # [16:23] * Joins: jacobolus (~jacobolus@70-36-196-50.dsl.static.sonic.net)
  214. # [16:27] * Joins: llkats (~llkats@c-67-188-8-143.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  215. # [16:28] * Quits: jacobolus (~jacobolus@70-36-196-50.dsl.static.sonic.net) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  216. # [16:32] * Quits: llkats (~llkats@c-67-188-8-143.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
  217. # [16:35] * Joins: zcorpan_ (~zcorpan@90-230-218-37-no135.tbcn.telia.com)
  218. # [16:37] * Quits: shaunbaker (~shaunbake@brick-lane.lbi.co.uk) (Remote host closed the connection)
  219. # [16:37] * Joins: shaunbaker (~shaunbake@brick-lane.lbi.co.uk)
  220. # [16:38] <annevk> cloneContents and extractContents are so similar
  221. # [16:39] * Quits: zcorpan_ (~zcorpan@90-230-218-37-no135.tbcn.telia.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
  222. # [16:41] * Quits: globbot (~logbot@lump.glob.com.au) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
  223. # [16:42] * Quits: kuatsure (~kuatsure@74.83.252.220) (Quit: zzz)
  224. # [16:42] * Joins: globbot (~logbot@lump.glob.com.au)
  225. # [16:44] * Joins: eric_carlson (~eric@17.202.43.125)
  226. # [16:45] * Joins: smaug____ (~chatzilla@a91-154-42-30.elisa-laajakaista.fi)
  227. # [16:46] * Joins: ehsan (~ehsan@66.207.208.102)
  228. # [16:53] * Quits: encryptd_fractal (~encryptd_@24-177-124-44.dhcp.mdsn.wi.charter.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
  229. # [16:55] * Quits: shaunbaker (~shaunbake@brick-lane.lbi.co.uk) (Remote host closed the connection)
  230. # [16:58] * Joins: bzalasky (~bzalasky@c-67-188-211-46.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  231. # [16:59] * Joins: clamstar (~rx-ident@162.243.230.189)
  232. # [17:00] * Quits: zdobersek (~zan@cpe-77.38.31.63.cable.t-1.si) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  233. # [17:02] * Joins: shaunbaker (~shaunbake@brick-lane.lbi.co.uk)
  234. # [17:02] * Joins: benv (~benv@c-67-188-10-155.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  235. # [17:03] * Quits: lokling_ (~quassel@quassel.woboq.de) (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.)
  236. # [17:03] * Joins: lokling (~quassel@quassel.woboq.de)
  237. # [17:04] * Quits: markkes (~markkes@62.207.90.201) (Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de)
  238. # [17:15] * Joins: zdobersek (~zan@46.19.139.182)
  239. # [17:16] * Joins: newtron (~newtron@206-248-163-123.dsl.teksavvy.com)
  240. # [17:16] * Parts: html (~css@unaffiliated/css)
  241. # [17:24] * Joins: jacobolus (~jacobolus@70-36-196-50.dsl.static.sonic.net)
  242. # [17:24] * Joins: encryptd_fractal (~encryptd_@24-177-124-44.dhcp.mdsn.wi.charter.com)
  243. # [17:24] * Quits: bzalasky (~bzalasky@c-67-188-211-46.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  244. # [17:25] * Quits: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@b255h209.ugent.be) (Read error: Operation timed out)
  245. # [17:28] * Quits: othermaciej (~mjs@c-50-136-134-16.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: othermaciej)
  246. # [17:28] * Quits: jacobolus (~jacobolus@70-36-196-50.dsl.static.sonic.net) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  247. # [17:32] * Quits: darobin (~darobin@78.109.80.74) (Remote host closed the connection)
  248. # [17:40] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@90-230-218-37-no135.tbcn.telia.com)
  249. # [17:43] * Joins: lmclister (~lmclister@sjfw1-b.adobe.com)
  250. # [17:44] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@90-230-218-37-no135.tbcn.telia.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
  251. # [17:46] * Quits: clamstar (~rx-ident@162.243.230.189) (Max SendQ exceeded)
  252. # [17:46] * Joins: clamstar (~rx-ident@162.243.230.189)
  253. # [17:49] * Quits: benvie (~bbenvie@204.28.118.69) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
  254. # [17:50] * Joins: benvie (~bbenvie@corp-nat.p2p.sfo1.mozilla.com)
  255. # [17:53] * Quits: sedovsek (~robert@89.143.12.238) (Quit: sedovsek)
  256. # [17:53] * Joins: benvie_ (~bbenvie@corp-nat.p2p.sfo1.mozilla.com)
  257. # [17:55] * Quits: benvie (~bbenvie@corp-nat.p2p.sfo1.mozilla.com) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
  258. # [18:00] * Quits: fredy (~fredy@2001:648:2ffc:1225:a800:ff:fe12:113e) (Excess Flood)
  259. # [18:02] * Joins: fredy (~fredy@snf-8914.vm.okeanos.grnet.gr)
  260. # [18:05] * Joins: alecf_ (alecf@nat/google/x-kmmuwsveqcvadpgj)
  261. # [18:05] * alecf_ is now known as alecf_gardening
  262. # [18:06] * Quits: Smylers (~smylers@81.143.60.194) (Quit: Leaving.)
  263. # [18:06] * Joins: Smylers (~smylers@81.143.60.194)
  264. # [18:06] * Joins: jeffreyatw (~jeffreyat@66-194-1-26.STATIC.twtelecom.net)
  265. # [18:07] * WolfieZero is now known as WolfieZero|Away
  266. # [18:07] * Quits: shaunbaker (~shaunbake@brick-lane.lbi.co.uk) (Remote host closed the connection)
  267. # [18:07] * Joins: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@26.223-64-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be)
  268. # [18:07] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
  269. # [18:08] * WolfieZero|Away is now known as WolfieZero
  270. # [18:12] * Joins: jernoble (~jernoble@17.202.46.221)
  271. # [18:18] * Joins: shaunbaker (~shaunbake@public.lbi.co.uk)
  272. # [18:18] * Joins: ap (~ap@2620:149:4:304:9103:f301:1cc4:3b9e)
  273. # [18:19] * Joins: roven (~roven@78-20-24-80.access.telenet.be)
  274. # [18:21] * Joins: Maurice (copyman@5ED57922.cm-7-6b.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
  275. # [18:21] * Quits: Smylers (~smylers@81.143.60.194) (Read error: No route to host)
  276. # [18:22] * Quits: roven (~roven@78-20-24-80.access.telenet.be) (Read error: Operation timed out)
  277. # [18:25] * Quits: barnabywalters (~barnabywa@46-239-239-203.tal.is) (Quit: barnabywalters)
  278. # [18:25] * Quits: benv (~benv@c-67-188-10-155.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
  279. # [18:26] * Joins: jacobolus (~jacobolus@70-36-196-50.dsl.static.sonic.net)
  280. # [18:26] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachy@213.166.174.2) (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
  281. # [18:29] * Quits: decotii (~decotii@hq.croscon.com) (Quit: Leaving)
  282. # [18:31] * Quits: jacobolus (~jacobolus@70-36-196-50.dsl.static.sonic.net) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  283. # [18:34] * Joins: shi (~decotii@hq.croscon.com)
  284. # [18:34] * Joins: darobin (~darobin@2a01:e34:ed05:d180:d850:581f:6e7d:d6dd)
  285. # [18:37] * Quits: darobin (~darobin@2a01:e34:ed05:d180:d850:581f:6e7d:d6dd) (Client Quit)
  286. # [18:37] * Joins: dbaron (~dbaron@70-36-140-106.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net)
  287. # [18:41] * Quits: smaug____ (~chatzilla@a91-154-42-30.elisa-laajakaista.fi) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  288. # [18:42] * Joins: jsbell (jsbell@nat/google/x-lbkerlqxdofqylmy)
  289. # [18:43] * Quits: taijeen (~taijeen@p4FF84BCC.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Remote host closed the connection)
  290. # [18:44] * Joins: Streusel (~Anonymous@unaffiliated/streusel)
  291. # [18:44] * Joins: kuatsure (~kuatsure@74.83.252.220)
  292. # [18:44] * Quits: kuatsure (~kuatsure@74.83.252.220) (Client Quit)
  293. # [18:45] * Joins: kuatsure (~kuatsure@74.83.252.220)
  294. # [18:47] * Joins: jorgepedret (~jorgepedr@64-46-23-103.dyn.novuscom.net)
  295. # [18:48] * Joins: shaunbak_ (~shaunbake@brick-lane.lbi.co.uk)
  296. # [18:48] <annevk> dglazkov: objects already have an associated realm or global or whatever you want to call it
  297. # [18:48] <annevk> dglazkov: they need one
  298. # [18:51] <dglazkov> annevk: the realms are at the horizon of my peripheral vision, I just was coordinatin' :)
  299. # [18:51] * Quits: shaunbak_ (~shaunbake@brick-lane.lbi.co.uk) (Remote host closed the connection)
  300. # [18:51] <dglazkov> I was like, yay realms! and slightlyoff was like, ugh. I was like, wat! I must tell annevk!
  301. # [18:51] * Quits: shaunbaker (~shaunbake@public.lbi.co.uk) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  302. # [18:51] <annevk> hah
  303. # [18:52] <dglazkov> see? I am a coordinator!
  304. # [18:55] * WolfieZero is now known as WolfieZero|Away
  305. # [18:57] * slightlyoff is so confused
  306. # [18:57] * WolfieZero|Away is now known as WolfieZero
  307. # [18:57] <TabAtkins> zcorpan: Ah, I don't have a way of inlining biblio extensions right now, so the API version won't work.
  308. # [18:58] <TabAtkins> zcorpan: What's the source you're using? I just changed my unicode handling, and am very interested in tracking down remaining bugs.
  309. # [18:58] * Joins: alrra (~alrra@unaffiliated/alrra)
  310. # [18:58] * Quits: heycam|away (~cam@wok.mcc.id.au) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  311. # [18:59] * Joins: heycam|away (~cam@wok.mcc.id.au)
  312. # [18:59] * Quits: alecf_gardening (alecf@nat/google/x-kmmuwsveqcvadpgj) (Quit: alecf_gardening)
  313. # [18:59] * alecf is now known as alecf_gardening
  314. # [19:00] * Joins: eric_carlson_ (~eric@17.202.43.125)
  315. # [19:00] * Quits: eric_carlson (~eric@17.202.43.125) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  316. # [19:00] * eric_carlson_ is now known as eric_carlson
  317. # [19:00] * Joins: hober (~ted@unaffiliated/hober)
  318. # [19:01] * Quits: jernoble (~jernoble@17.202.46.221) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  319. # [19:01] * Joins: jernoble (~jernoble@17.202.46.221)
  320. # [19:02] * Quits: hasather (~hasather@80.91.33.141) (Remote host closed the connection)
  321. # [19:02] * Joins: hasather (~hasather@80.91.33.141)
  322. # [19:03] * Joins: jensnockert (~jensnocke@host-95-199-208-213.mobileonline.telia.com)
  323. # [19:06] * Quits: hasather (~hasather@80.91.33.141) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  324. # [19:07] * benvie_ is now known as benvie
  325. # [19:09] * jonlee_|afk is now known as jonlee_
  326. # [19:09] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachy@cm-84.215.104.248.getinternet.no)
  327. # [19:09] * Joins: llkats (~llkats@206.169.83.230)
  328. # [19:11] * Quits: alrra (~alrra@unaffiliated/alrra) (Quit: Leaving)
  329. # [19:15] * Quits: felipeduardo (~felipedua@189.103.152.191) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  330. # [19:19] * Joins: weinig (~weinig@17.114.218.135)
  331. # [19:19] * Joins: danielwrobert (~Adium@wsip-68-15-24-46.sd.sd.cox.net)
  332. # [19:20] <annevk> slightlyoff: blame dglazkov
  333. # [19:20] <slightlyoff> always do. always do.
  334. # [19:21] <annevk> Oh man, someone asked me to review the Beacon specification
  335. # [19:22] <annevk> Someone should seriously teach those guys how to write a specification, or maybe first code
  336. # [19:22] <jgraham> I hear that only takes a day
  337. # [19:22] <annevk> They asked: is it ready for LC? I replied: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-web-perf/2014Feb/0048.html
  338. # [19:22] * Joins: stevefaulkner (~stevefaul@cpc3-nmal20-2-0-cust916.19-2.cable.virginm.net)
  339. # [19:22] <hober> annevk: you could ask them to stay after class and write something 100 times on the board
  340. # [19:22] <annevk> I almost added, "So, for W3C's purposes this does indeed seem ready for LC."
  341. # [19:23] * WolfieZero is now known as WolfieZero|Away
  342. # [19:23] <annevk> But that would be mean, and the people I want to understand that sentiment would probably not get it either
  343. # [19:23] <jgraham> They would have taken you seriously
  344. # [19:24] <jgraham> (I am not being sarcastic)
  345. # [19:24] <Ms2ger> I can confirm that
  346. # [19:27] * Quits: WolfieZero|Away (~WolfieZer@neils-wireless.manor.fubra.net) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
  347. # [19:27] * Joins: felipeduardo (~felipedua@189.103.152.191)
  348. # [19:28] * _numerical is now known as numerical
  349. # [19:31] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@70-36-139-254.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net)
  350. # [19:33] * Quits: kuatsure (~kuatsure@74.83.252.220) (Quit: zzz)
  351. # [19:36] <annevk> hober: oh lol, TabAtkins actually said that o_O
  352. # [19:36] * Quits: lerc (~quassel@121-74-1-14.telstraclear.net) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
  353. # [19:36] <TabAtkins> Hahaha
  354. # [19:37] <annevk> Doing Type 4 with sync accessors from the parent is going to be fun
  355. # [19:37] <annevk> I really wonder how people imagine something like <video> would work in such a setup
  356. # [19:40] * jonlee_ is now known as jonlee_|afk
  357. # [19:42] * Joins: smaug____ (~chatzilla@a91-154-42-30.elisa-laajakaista.fi)
  358. # [19:43] * Joins: sicking (~sicking@50-193-20-145-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net)
  359. # [19:45] * Quits: fredy (~fredy@snf-8914.vm.okeanos.grnet.gr) (Excess Flood)
  360. # [19:46] * Joins: fredy (~fredy@2001:648:2ffc:1225:a800:ff:fe12:113e)
  361. # [19:47] * Quits: Streusel (~Anonymous@unaffiliated/streusel) (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
  362. # [19:47] <TabAtkins> If not full-on this-is-how-you-explain-crossorigin-iframes Type 4, you at least need something much stronger than anything that has been presented as an example of "Type 2".
  363. # [19:49] * Joins: ebetancourt (~ebetancou@c-66-229-12-65.hsd1.fl.comcast.net)
  364. # [19:49] * Joins: benv (~benv@38.104.194.126)
  365. # [19:55] * Joins: alrra (~alrra@unaffiliated/alrra)
  366. # [19:57] <aklein> anyone know what the right way to get someone to take a look at a web-platform-tests pull request is? maybe Ms2ger knows?
  367. # [19:57] * Parts: stevefaulkner (~stevefaul@cpc3-nmal20-2-0-cust916.19-2.cable.virginm.net)
  368. # [19:57] <Ms2ger> aklein, ask me, I guess :)
  369. # [19:57] <Ms2ger> aklein, which?
  370. # [19:58] * Quits: weinig (~weinig@17.114.218.135) (Quit: weinig)
  371. # [19:59] <aklein> Ms2ger: https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/624 brings the tests up to spec
  372. # [19:59] * Quits: sicking (~sicking@50-193-20-145-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) (Quit: sicking)
  373. # [19:59] <aklein> ms2ger: er, the <template> tests
  374. # [19:59] <Ms2ger> Ah, shadow stuff
  375. # [19:59] <Ms2ger> I'll poke
  376. # [19:59] <aklein> not shadow related. or rather, <template> wormholes
  377. # [19:59] <Ms2ger> s/shadow/components/
  378. # [19:59] * Joins: Smylers (~smylers@host86-163-23-70.range86-163.btcentralplus.com)
  379. # [20:00] * Ms2ger lumps everything in together
  380. # [20:00] <aklein> heh, no, must decouple ALL the things! :)
  381. # [20:02] * Joins: lerc (~quassel@121-74-1-14.telstraclear.net)
  382. # [20:03] <aklein> Ms2ger: I'm especially interested in making sure that I've properly explained which spec change this is about
  383. # [20:03] * Joins: say2joe (~say2joe@209-253-225-97.ip.mcleodusa.net)
  384. # [20:04] * Quits: say2joe (~say2joe@209-253-225-97.ip.mcleodusa.net) (Client Quit)
  385. # [20:04] * Joins: say2joe (~say2joe@209-253-225-97.ip.mcleodusa.net)
  386. # [20:04] * Quits: bzed (~bzed@devel.recluse.de) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  387. # [20:05] * Joins: weinig (~weinig@17.114.4.92)
  388. # [20:05] * Joins: kuatsure (~kuatsure@74.83.252.220)
  389. # [20:09] <Ms2ger> aklein, I found a victim :)
  390. # [20:09] * Joins: bzed (~bzed@devel.recluse.de)
  391. # [20:10] * Quits: alrra (~alrra@unaffiliated/alrra) (Quit: Leaving)
  392. # [20:18] * Joins: roven (~roven@78-20-24-80.access.telenet.be)
  393. # [20:23] * Quits: roven (~roven@78-20-24-80.access.telenet.be) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  394. # [20:24] <annevk> TabAtkins: how then, btw, does Chrome use shadow DOM today to implement some stuff?
  395. # [20:25] <TabAtkins> Magic.
  396. # [20:25] <TabAtkins> Shadow DOM is an implementation detail there.
  397. # [20:25] * Joins: roven (~roven@78-20-24-80.access.telenet.be)
  398. # [20:26] <Domenic_> what extra magic is necessary?
  399. # [20:26] <dglazkov> the magic bit is that we have a nice C++/JS boundary that serves as trust boundary
  400. # [20:26] <TabAtkins> All the magic that blocks every leak of shadow access.
  401. # [20:27] <Ms2ger> Is that #2?
  402. # [20:27] <TabAtkins> Nope, at least not as ever defined in any way by Maciej or others.
  403. # [20:28] <TabAtkins> There are lots of data leaks, but only a few of them have ever been mentioned as part of "Type 2".
  404. # [20:28] <TabAtkins> It's *possible* that Maciej always meant "the kind of encapsulation that native elements get", but he's never expressed that, and if he does want that, it's a much bigger job.
  405. # [20:29] <dglazkov> well, to be fair -- it does have some of type 2 properties. But there's that trust boundary that actually does most of the work.
  406. # [20:29] * Joins: jacobolus (~jacobolus@70-36-196-50.dsl.static.sonic.net)
  407. # [20:34] * Joins: WolfieZero (~WolfieZer@neilandkerrie.plus.com)
  408. # [20:37] * Quits: jacobolus (~jacobolus@70-36-196-50.dsl.static.sonic.net) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
  409. # [20:37] <jsbell> Any AppCache experts/interested parties hereabouts?
  410. # [20:38] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@90-230-218-37-no135.tbcn.telia.com)
  411. # [20:39] * Quits: WolfieZero (~WolfieZer@neilandkerrie.plus.com) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  412. # [20:45] * Joins: alrra (~alrra@unaffiliated/alrra)
  413. # [20:45] * Quits: roven (~roven@78-20-24-80.access.telenet.be) (Remote host closed the connection)
  414. # [20:45] <zcorpan> TabAtkins: i used picture index.src.html but with s/Cáceres/Caceres/
  415. # [20:46] * Joins: roven (~roven@78-20-24-80.access.telenet.be)
  416. # [20:46] * Quits: alrra (~alrra@unaffiliated/alrra) (Read error: No route to host)
  417. # [20:47] * Joins: alrra (~alrra@unaffiliated/alrra)
  418. # [20:48] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@90-230-218-37-no135.tbcn.telia.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
  419. # [20:48] * Quits: 16WAAOWWZ (scrollback@conference/jsconf/x-surgxljybnevrfbj) (Remote host closed the connection)
  420. # [20:49] * Joins: 21WACC2CW (scrollback@conference/jsconf/x-jqhraqihbcphdejr)
  421. # [20:49] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachy@cm-84.215.104.248.getinternet.no) (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
  422. # [20:52] * Quits: lerc (~quassel@121-74-1-14.telstraclear.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  423. # [20:54] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachy@cm-84.215.104.248.getinternet.no)
  424. # [20:54] * Quits: newtron (~newtron@206-248-163-123.dsl.teksavvy.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
  425. # [20:54] * Joins: newtron (~newtron@206-248-163-123.dsl.teksavvy.com)
  426. # [20:55] * Quits: weinig (~weinig@17.114.4.92) (Quit: weinig)
  427. # [20:58] * Quits: newtron (~newtron@206-248-163-123.dsl.teksavvy.com) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  428. # [21:01] * Quits: jcgregorio_ (jcgregorio@nat/google/x-bzpvedkiisqlomse) (Quit: Leaving)
  429. # [21:01] * Joins: jacobolus (~jacobolus@70-36-196-50.dsl.static.sonic.net)
  430. # [21:02] * Joins: jcgregorio_ (jcgregorio@nat/google/x-zzqppwqjvhglpgru)
  431. # [21:04] * Quits: eric_carlson (~eric@17.202.43.125) (Quit: eric_carlson)
  432. # [21:05] * Quits: rektide (~rektide@eldergods.com) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  433. # [21:06] * Joins: rektide (~rektide@eldergods.com)
  434. # [21:06] * Joins: weinig (~weinig@17.114.218.135)
  435. # [21:08] * Joins: taijeen (~taijeen@p4FF84BCC.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
  436. # [21:09] * Joins: eric_carlson (~eric@17.202.43.125)
  437. # [21:10] <TabAtkins> zcorpan: Okay, let me check that out.
  438. # [21:20] * heycam|away is now known as heycam
  439. # [21:23] * Quits: reyre (~reyre@142.204.133.18) (Remote host closed the connection)
  440. # [21:24] * Quits: say2joe (~say2joe@209-253-225-97.ip.mcleodusa.net) (Quit: Leaving.)
  441. # [21:26] * Joins: newtron (~newtron@206-248-163-123.dsl.teksavvy.com)
  442. # [21:27] * Joins: hasather (~hasather@80.91.33.141)
  443. # [21:28] * Quits: taijeen (~taijeen@p4FF84BCC.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Remote host closed the connection)
  444. # [21:29] * Joins: reyre (~reyre@out-on-242.wireless.telus.com)
  445. # [21:29] * Quits: hasather (~hasather@80.91.33.141) (Read error: Operation timed out)
  446. # [21:33] * Quits: felipeduardo (~felipedua@189.103.152.191) (Quit: Leaving)
  447. # [21:36] * Quits: qrwteyrutiyoup (~qrwteyrut@unaffiliated/qrwteyrutiyoup) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  448. # [21:36] * jorendorff_away is now known as jorendorff
  449. # [21:38] * Quits: reyre (~reyre@out-on-242.wireless.telus.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
  450. # [21:41] * Joins: qrwteyrutiyoup (~qrwteyrut@unaffiliated/qrwteyrutiyoup)
  451. # [21:41] * Joins: lilmonkey` (~colin@pdpc/supporter/professional/riven)
  452. # [21:42] * Quits: beowulf (~sstewart@host109-158-229-141.range109-158.btcentralplus.com) (Quit: leaving)
  453. # [21:45] * Joins: rniwa (~rniwa@17.202.43.222)
  454. # [21:45] * Quits: lilmonkey (~colin@pdpc/supporter/professional/riven) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  455. # [21:45] * Joins: vcarbune_ (~vcarbune@vpn-global-217-dhcp.ethz.ch)
  456. # [21:52] * Joins: lerc (~quassel@121-74-1-14.telstraclear.net)
  457. # [21:59] <SamB> hmm, is there a standard that prescribes the behaviour of the "Refresh:" header?
  458. # [22:00] * Quits: weinig (~weinig@17.114.218.135) (Quit: weinig)
  459. # [22:02] * Quits: roven (~roven@78-20-24-80.access.telenet.be) (Remote host closed the connection)
  460. # [22:02] <Hixie> jsbell: i'm around if you have a question
  461. # [22:03] <Hixie> SamB: the header, or the <meta> pragma?
  462. # [22:03] <SamB> Hixie: well, this is in fact the header
  463. # [22:03] <Hixie> for the header i don't think there's a spec, but i could be wrong. See IETF.
  464. # [22:06] * Quits: alrra (~alrra@unaffiliated/alrra) (Quit: Leaving)
  465. # [22:07] <SamB> So I guess if I said the meta tag, you'd have said "it's in HTML5" or "it's in HTML trunk"?
  466. # [22:07] <Hixie> the html standard defines how the pragma works, yeah. http://whatwg.org/html/#attr-meta-http-equiv-refresh
  467. # [22:08] <jsbell> Hixie: When an AppCache update fails we'd like to provide some sort of diagnostic that could be e.g. sent back to the server. Right now the "error" event is just an Event, so there's nowhere to stick the message.
  468. # [22:08] <Hixie> jsbell: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=22702
  469. # [22:09] <Hixie> jsbell: i'm kinda waiting to see what happens with service workers before i add anything to appcache, but if you and another vendor are ready to implement now, i can fast-track it
  470. # [22:10] * Quits: vcarbune_ (~vcarbune@vpn-global-217-dhcp.ethz.ch) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  471. # [22:11] <SamB> step 7 of that algorithm looks most unusual ...
  472. # [22:12] <Hixie> yeah... welcome to the web
  473. # [22:14] <jsbell> Hixie: a sensible stance; we have a real need to pursue this before SW is ready; can't speak for any other vendors, though. I can propose something in the bug. ISTM a semi-generic event type for errors w/ a place to stuff a name + message would be handy in the platform
  474. # [22:15] <jsbell> There's ErrorEvent already which has an error property (so, could hold a DOMError/DOMException/js Error); the source/line number fields aren't useful in this case, though.
  475. # [22:15] <Hixie> jsbell: if it's a generic string, we'll end up having to spec the exact strings, because authors are gonna do regexps on them
  476. # [22:15] <Hixie> jsbell: we'd create a new event, presumably (assuming we just use an event)
  477. # [22:16] * Quits: ehsan (~ehsan@66.207.208.102) (Remote host closed the connection)
  478. # [22:16] <Hixie> jsbell: more information on exactly what the need is would be good to add to the bug
  479. # [22:16] * Joins: beowulf (~sstewart@host109-158-229-141.range109-158.btcentralplus.com)
  480. # [22:16] <SamB> hmm, looks like Firefox does exactly the same thing with an actual Refresh header
  481. # [22:17] <Hixie> seems plausible
  482. # [22:17] * Joins: KevinMarks (~KevinMark@c-67-164-14-200.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  483. # [22:19] * Quits: Somatt_wrk (~somattwrk@130.193.24.135) (Quit: ( www.nnscript.com :: NoNameScript 4.22 :: www.esnation.com ))
  484. # [22:20] * Joins: svl (~me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl)
  485. # [22:23] * Quits: TuRnaD0 (~Thunderbi@x1-6-e0-46-9a-1e-fe-ca.cpe.webspeed.dk) (Remote host closed the connection)
  486. # [22:23] * Joins: stevefaulkner (~stevefaul@cpc3-nmal20-2-0-cust916.19-2.cable.virginm.net)
  487. # [22:25] * Joins: ambv (~ambv@206.108.217.134)
  488. # [22:28] * Quits: stevefaulkner (~stevefaul@cpc3-nmal20-2-0-cust916.19-2.cable.virginm.net) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
  489. # [22:28] * Joins: vcarbune_ (~vcarbune@77-56-55-105.dclient.hispeed.ch)
  490. # [22:29] * Joins: sicking (~sicking@50-193-20-145-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net)
  491. # [22:29] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@70-36-139-254.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net) (Quit: tantek)
  492. # [22:29] * Quits: dbaron (~dbaron@70-36-140-106.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net) (Quit: 8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.)
  493. # [22:29] * Quits: scor (scor@drupal.org/user/52142/view) (Quit: scor)
  494. # [22:30] * Joins: ehsan (~ehsan@66.207.208.102)
  495. # [22:33] * Quits: jernoble (~jernoble@17.202.46.221) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  496. # [22:33] * Joins: jernoble_ (~jernoble@17.202.46.221)
  497. # [22:34] * Quits: eric_carlson (~eric@17.202.43.125) (Quit: eric_carlson)
  498. # [22:35] * Quits: 21WACC2CW (scrollback@conference/jsconf/x-jqhraqihbcphdejr) (Remote host closed the connection)
  499. # [22:36] * Joins: 18WAFR5MG (scrollback@conference/jsconf/x-yhqgzljwksiguxcf)
  500. # [22:36] * Joins: hasather (~hasather@80.91.33.141)
  501. # [22:37] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@c-50-136-134-16.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  502. # [22:38] * Quits: vcarbune_ (~vcarbune@77-56-55-105.dclient.hispeed.ch) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  503. # [22:39] * Quits: satazor (~satazor@bl17-147-196.dsl.telepac.pt) (Remote host closed the connection)
  504. # [22:40] * Quits: sicking (~sicking@50-193-20-145-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) (Quit: sicking)
  505. # [22:40] * Joins: eric_carlson (~eric@17.202.43.125)
  506. # [22:41] * Quits: hasather (~hasather@80.91.33.141) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  507. # [22:43] * Quits: othermaciej (~mjs@c-50-136-134-16.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: othermaciej)
  508. # [22:45] * Joins: sicking (~sicking@50-193-20-145-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net)
  509. # [22:45] * Joins: reyre (~reyre@bas1-streetsville52-1279283565.dsl.bell.ca)
  510. # [22:49] * Quits: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@26.223-64-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be) (Quit: nn)
  511. # [22:53] <SamB> hmm, it would be cool if there was a "diff" view between the latest html5 "release" and html5 tip ...
  512. # [22:53] <Hixie> there is
  513. # [22:54] * Quits: sicking (~sicking@50-193-20-145-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) (Quit: sicking)
  514. # [22:54] <SamB> yeah, I was just about to say "oh, it looks like there is"
  515. # [22:54] <Hixie> http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker?from=8476&to=8477 is the diff between the "html tip" and the last thing we released
  516. # [22:54] <Hixie> http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker for the home page
  517. # [22:54] <SamB> but wow is that overwhelming ...
  518. # [22:54] <Hixie> (s/last thing/previous thing/, i guess)
  519. # [22:55] <SamB> I'm not quite *that* pedantic
  520. # [22:55] * Joins: roven (~roven@78-20-24-80.access.telenet.be)
  521. # [22:55] <Hixie> uncheck "show editorial checkins" or whatever it's called
  522. # [22:55] <Hixie> it'll remove the minor stuff
  523. # [22:56] * Quits: kuatsure (~kuatsure@74.83.252.220) (Quit: zzz)
  524. # [22:58] <SamB> hmm, mediawiki's diff-picking UI (with the radio buttons plus the "current" and "prev" links on each row) is better
  525. # [22:59] <Hixie> patches welcome :-)
  526. # [22:59] * Quits: Smylers (~smylers@host86-163-23-70.range86-163.btcentralplus.com) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  527. # [22:59] * Joins: weinig (~weinig@17.114.218.135)
  528. # [23:00] <Hixie> i _think_ the source is https://code.google.com/p/html5/source/browse/#svn%2Ftrunk%2Fweb-apps-tracker but it might have moved to github
  529. # [23:00] <SamB> yeah, I might have more hope of patching this than of building the spec (or was that validator.nu?) on OS X 10.5 ...
  530. # [23:01] <SamB> Hixie: see, this is why you should link to source for the webapp in question from the bottom of each page
  531. # [23:01] <Hixie> patches welcome for that too :-)
  532. # [23:01] <Hixie> i didn't write that
  533. # [23:01] <Hixie> that was mainly anne, i think
  534. # [23:01] <Hixie> ah, no, latest source is at https://github.com/whatwg/web-apps-tracker
  535. # [23:02] <SamB> and that patch would presumably be a great deal easier even than the diff-picking
  536. # [23:03] * SamB wonders why he has an empty ~/hacking/whatwg directory ...
  537. # [23:03] <Hixie> check when you created it, then check irc logs for that day :-)
  538. # [23:04] <SamB> too late, I modified it now
  539. # [23:05] * Joins: seventh (seventh@185.29.164.1)
  540. # [23:08] * jorendorff is now known as jorendorff_away
  541. # [23:08] <SamB> Hixie: you seem to have assigned some rather unusual semantics to span ;-)
  542. # [23:08] <Hixie> hm?
  543. # [23:09] * Quits: shannonmoeller (~shannonmo@pool-108-17-8-225.bflony.fios.verizon.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  544. # [23:09] * jorendorff_away is now known as jorendorff
  545. # [23:09] <SamB> in the spec sources I mean
  546. # [23:09] <Hixie> oh, for cross-references?
  547. # [23:09] <Hixie> yeah
  548. # [23:10] <Hixie> it gets all preprocessed and the <span>s go away in the output, mostly
  549. # [23:10] <Hixie> the source file isn't realy HTML
  550. # [23:10] * Joins: say2joe (~say2joe@209-253-225-97.ip.mcleodusa.net)
  551. # [23:10] <Hixie> it's HSML ("HTML Specification Markup Language")
  552. # [23:10] <Hixie> which is strongly influenced by HTML, certainly...
  553. # [23:10] <SamB> then why use an existing element name at all for that?
  554. # [23:11] <Hixie> inertia from a previous time where we used a different preprocessor
  555. # [23:11] * SamB is reminded a bit of Lore, though that's not so un-HTML
  556. # [23:11] <Hixie> i'm slowly making myself a new pipeline that'll let me change all this to me much saer
  557. # [23:11] <Hixie> saner
  558. # [23:11] <Hixie> but it's one free-time project of many
  559. # [23:12] * Quits: newtron (~newtron@206-248-163-123.dsl.teksavvy.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
  560. # [23:13] * Joins: rniwa_ (~rniwa@17.202.43.222)
  561. # [23:13] * Quits: rniwa (~rniwa@17.202.43.222) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  562. # [23:13] * rniwa_ is now known as rniwa
  563. # [23:14] <SamB> <http://twistedmatrix.com/documents/current/lore/howto/lore.html>, which I clicked through surprisingly many links to get to, gives a very clear idea of what lore does, I think
  564. # [23:14] * Quits: weinig (~weinig@17.114.218.135) (Quit: weinig)
  565. # [23:15] <Hixie> yeah, there's lots of variants like this around
  566. # [23:15] <Hixie> even in the web spec world there's like half a dozen
  567. # [23:16] * Quits: ebetancourt (~ebetancou@c-66-229-12-65.hsd1.fl.comcast.net) (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
  568. # [23:16] <SamB> I guess nowadays you could even do most/all of that in JS ...
  569. # [23:17] <Hixie> ideally a spec should be readably without JS, but yeah
  570. # [23:17] <SamB> I was thinking it might be handy for previewing, if it could be faithful to the other version
  571. # [23:18] * Joins: stevefaulkner (~stevefaul@cpc3-nmal20-2-0-cust916.19-2.cable.virginm.net)
  572. # [23:18] <SamB> or I guess we have crazy things like node.js that might let us use the same thing for both
  573. # [23:18] <Hixie> to be honest, given the size of the html spec, the processing isn't likely to be very fast when it comes to previewing, JS or not
  574. # [23:18] <Hixie> (i rarely preview, heh)
  575. # [23:19] * Joins: weinig (~weinig@17.114.218.135)
  576. # [23:19] <Hixie> i realised the other day that the file i edit is literally 5% of the size of the first hard disk i had growing up
  577. # [23:19] * SamB was also thinking aloud about what *lore* does, which is much less
  578. # [23:19] <Hixie> and wouldn't even remotely fit in the RAM of that computer, let alone earlier ones i used
  579. # [23:21] <TabAtkins> Nearly all specs are written as not-quite-HTML.
  580. # [23:22] <TabAtkins> And then passed through either Anolis or Bikeshed, or include the ReSpec js library for formatting client-side.
  581. # [23:22] <TabAtkins> Hixie just uses a really hacked-up version of Anolis.
  582. # [23:22] <Hixie> it's anolis, it just has some stuff in front and behind it
  583. # [23:22] * Quits: stevefaulkner (~stevefaul@cpc3-nmal20-2-0-cust916.19-2.cable.virginm.net) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  584. # [23:23] <TabAtkins> ah, ok.
  585. # [23:23] <TabAtkins> Oh, and I forgot that SVG uses an XSLT thing as their formatter.
  586. # [23:23] * Joins: saba (~foo@unaffiliated/saba)
  587. # [23:23] <TabAtkins> With Dirk doing some of his fxtf specs by starting with the XSLT transformer and then passing through Bikeshed.
  588. # [23:24] <Hixie> there's also bert's old thing, dunno if anyone is using that any more, which was the tool that predated anolis
  589. # [23:24] * Quits: Maurice (copyman@5ED57922.cm-7-6b.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
  590. # [23:24] <TabAtkins> A handful of CSS specs are still using it, but I've changed over at least half of the repo.
  591. # [23:24] <TabAtkins> Just converted another spec this afternoon.
  592. # [23:24] <heycam> TabAtkins, what?
  593. # [23:25] <TabAtkins> heycam: Don't you?
  594. # [23:25] <heycam> TabAtkins, oh that changed a while ago. it's pure JS now.
  595. # [23:25] <heycam> (a while = about a year ago)
  596. # [23:25] <TabAtkins> Oh, didn't realize!
  597. # [23:25] <Hixie> and that would make 6 :-)
  598. # [23:25] <heycam> Removing forceRedraw, suspendRedraw, unsuspendRedraw from SVG2
  599. # [23:25] <heycam> er
  600. # [23:25] <heycam> https://svgwg.org/hg/svg2-tools/file/ee0a80076e9b/publish
  601. # [23:26] <heycam> Web IDL is still XSLT though ;)
  602. # [23:26] <SamB> ah, https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/editing/raw-file/tip/editing.html is looking much nicer today. Thanks, TabAtkins and Hixie and whoever you needed help from!
  603. # [23:26] <TabAtkins> Ms2ger actually did it, and then I *also* did it without realizing he'd already done the work.
  604. # [23:26] * Joins: say2joe1 (~say2joe@209-253-225-97.ip.mcleodusa.net)
  605. # [23:26] <SamB> well, thanks to him too then ;-)
  606. # [23:27] <TabAtkins> Ugh, still doesn't have a max-width.
  607. # [23:27] <TabAtkins> max-width:50em or gtfo
  608. # [23:27] <Hixie> <crazy wolf>just increase your font size</crazy wolf>
  609. # [23:28] <SamB> speaking of max-width, I was trying to find a way to apply that to anonymous block-level boxes that hold inline-level boxes ...
  610. # [23:28] <Hixie> css really needs a way to address those
  611. # [23:28] <SamB> or something like that
  612. # [23:28] * Quits: svl (~me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl) (Quit: And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.)
  613. # [23:28] * Krinkle|detached is now known as Krinkle
  614. # [23:28] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Yes, we do. :/
  615. # [23:28] * Hixie has no idea how to do it, though
  616. # [23:29] <Hixie> i tried with the whoel move-to thing, but that sucks ass
  617. # [23:30] <SamB> so that I could make mediawiki stuff use a limited text width, without also cramming everything else into the same space, and so that indented blocks wouldn't have to be narrower necessarily
  618. # [23:30] * Quits: say2joe (~say2joe@209-253-225-97.ip.mcleodusa.net) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
  619. # [23:30] * Joins: dbaron (~dbaron@corp-nat.p2p.sfo1.mozilla.com)
  620. # [23:30] * Quits: zdobersek (~zan@46.19.139.182) (Quit: Leaving.)
  621. # [23:31] * Quits: marcosc (~marcosc@a79-168-197-24.cpe.netcabo.pt) (Remote host closed the connection)
  622. # [23:32] <SamB> if you want to see what I *don't* want, try out the typography revamp beta on any of WMF's sites (wikipedia being the most popular) ;-)
  623. # [23:33] <SamB> Oh, have I mentioned my puzzlement as to why Selection needs to be bundled with *all* of those editing commands?
  624. # [23:34] <Hixie> the stuff in that spec is mostly the stuff aryeh worked on
  625. # [23:34] <SamB> so basically because Ranges died?
  626. # [23:34] <Hixie> really there should be one spec called "The Web Living Standard"
  627. # [23:34] <Hixie> but we've split it up for ease of editing
  628. # [23:34] <Hixie> so all the stuff I edit is in the HTML Standard, for instance
  629. # [23:34] <Hixie> Anne splits his parts up even more
  630. # [23:35] <Hixie> anyway, Range is in dom.spec.whatwg.org
  631. # [23:35] <SamB> not for ease of explaining piecemeal implementation?
  632. # [23:35] <Hixie> no, definitely not for that
  633. # [23:35] <Hixie> everything on the web is interconnected
  634. # [23:35] <Hixie> especially the old stuff
  635. # [23:35] <Hixie> like selection, dom, html, etc
  636. # [23:35] <Hixie> webidl, js...
  637. # [23:37] * Joins: hasather (~hasather@80.91.33.141)
  638. # [23:37] <SamB> true
  639. # [23:40] * Quits: jcgregorio_ (jcgregorio@nat/google/x-zzqppwqjvhglpgru) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  640. # [23:44] * Quits: hasather (~hasather@80.91.33.141) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
  641. # [23:44] * Quits: espadrine (~ttyl@AMontsouris-158-1-21-34.w92-128.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Quit: Leaving)
  642. # [23:44] * Joins: newtron (~newtron@206-248-163-123.dsl.teksavvy.com)
  643. # [23:44] * Quits: jensnockert (~jensnocke@host-95-199-208-213.mobileonline.telia.com) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  644. # [23:44] * Krinkle is now known as Krinkle|detached
  645. # [23:47] * Quits: newtron (~newtron@206-248-163-123.dsl.teksavvy.com) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  646. # [23:54] * Quits: saba (~foo@unaffiliated/saba) (Quit: leaving)
  647. # [23:54] * Joins: sicking (~sicking@50-193-20-145-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net)
  648. # [23:55] * Quits: seventh (seventh@185.29.164.1) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  649. # [23:56] * Joins: newtron (~newtron@206-248-163-123.dsl.teksavvy.com)
  650. # [23:59] * Joins: jcgregorio_ (~jcgregori@108-192-129-122.lightspeed.rlghnc.sbcglobal.net)
  651. # [23:59] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@17.114.216.108)
  652. # Session Close: Fri Feb 14 00:00:00 2014

The end :)