/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2014-02-21 / end

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# Session Start: Fri Feb 21 00:00:01 2014
# Session Ident: #whatwg
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# [00:05] <Domenic_> yeah jonas was saying how <form>.elements is screwy
# [00:05] <Domenic_> what is tricky about the interaction with label?
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# [00:19] <Hixie> Domenic_: nothing particularly tricky, but <label> doesn't know about custom elements, so it won't do anything useful with them
# [00:19] <Hixie> Domenic_: note that i think form submission is kind of a red herring. With things like web sockets, it's not as important to actually submit anything. It's more interesting to be in form.elements and the like.
# [00:19] <Domenic_> ah right
# [00:21] <Hixie> hober: it's cute how we're finally discussing these things that i had specced in xbl2 and web control 2.0 back in 2004 :-P
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# [00:25] <hober> Hixie: right?
# [00:26] <Hixie> i wish it had gotten more traction back then
# [00:26] <Hixie> oh well
# [00:26] <Hixie> i didn't push it much either
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# Session Close: Fri Feb 21 01:51:10 2014
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# Session Start: Fri Feb 21 01:51:10 2014
# Session Ident: #whatwg
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# [01:52] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ & http://logbot.glob.com.au/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
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# [01:56] <erlehmann> hey what
# [01:56] <erlehmann> what is the problem with <source @media> ?
# [01:56] <erlehmann> :(
# [01:57] <erlehmann> why did you take it away? :(
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# [02:04] <erlehmann> this is not funny https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=19619#c31
# [02:04] <erlehmann> i use that attribute myself
# [02:04] * [[zzz]] is now known as [[zz]]
# [02:05] <erlehmann> i used it here! http://news.dieweltistgarnichtso.net/talks/music-c-compiler.html
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# [02:05] <erlehmann> [[zz]] what is your name, when you are sleeping? [[zzz]]zzz ?
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# [02:07] <[[zz]]> erlehmann, [[zzz]] :p
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# [03:20] <erlehmann> http://daten.dieweltistgarnichtso.net/src/css-pie-chart-form.html
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# [03:29] <jamesr__> sent an intent-to-remove for window.showModalDialog() in blink
# [03:30] <jamesr__> unless our instrumentation is broken it shows up on < 0.006% of page visits
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# [03:37] <erlehmann> jamesr__ can you tell me why chrome is the only browser to not display the actual feed when navigated to one?
# [03:38] <erlehmann> safari, firefox, even IE display the feed.
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# [03:39] <jamesr__> not sure i understand
# [03:40] <jamesr__> you're asking why chrome does not have a built-in RSS reader?
# [03:41] <jamesr__> or maybe we're talking about a different type of feed
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# [03:45] <erlehmann> jamesr__ more like why does it not show the xml of the feed, possibly styled?
# [03:45] <erlehmann> jamesr__ there must be some reason for this because every other browser – on desktop at least – is able to.
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# [03:47] <erlehmann> jamesr__ also why did the chrome team state that it remove h.264 support and then did not remove it? do you know about that?
# [03:47] <erlehmann> i never found a further post
# [03:47] <erlehmann> (just asking that because you seem to know more about chrome than me)
# [03:48] <erlehmann> jamesr__ is there an instrumentation thing for link rel=alternate type=application/atom+xml ?
# [03:49] <erlehmann> jamesr__ can i see the chrome instrumentation data somewhere?
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# [07:16] <bhanu> dglazkov: hi, I am not quite clear of the terminologies host, inclusive ancestor, host-including inclusive ancestor, could you please help me understand?
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# [07:24] <zcorpan> erlermann: http://news.dieweltistgarnichtso.net/talks/music-c-compiler.html - this doesn't work. the <source> with the media attribute will never be loaded. this is why it was removed.
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# [07:57] <zcorpan> miketaylr: can you grep for 'showModalDialog' pls?
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# [09:18] <Hixie> bhanu: see dom.spec.whatwg.org
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# [09:43] <bhanu> Hixie: I couldn't quite understand it from the spec, I would like to understand it, if possible with example
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# [10:00] <zcorpan> bhanu: i think something like <template id=t><span></span></template> <script> t.shadowRoot.firstChild.appendChild(t) </script>
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# Session Close: Fri Feb 21 12:29:23 2014
#
# Session Start: Fri Feb 21 12:29:23 2014
# Session Ident: #whatwg
# [12:29] * Disconnected
# [12:30] * Attempting to rejoin channel #whatwg
# [12:30] * Rejoined channel #whatwg
# [12:30] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ & http://logbot.glob.com.au/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
# [12:30] * Set by smaug____!~chatzilla@GGZYYCCCXVIII.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi on Wed Mar 21 17:14:24
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# [12:46] <annevk-cloud> There is a note explaining it…
# [12:46] <annevk-cloud> File a bug if it needs to be clearer I suppose
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# [12:58] <roc> public-media-capture is making me crazy
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# [13:01] <Ms2ger> Which one is that? WebRTC?
# [13:01] <jgraham> roc: Surely not? All W3C lists, especially those with -media- in the name, are places of Zen-like peace and serenity.
# [13:02] <roc> getUserMedia, MediaRecorder
# [13:02] <Ms2ger> Ah
# [13:02] * Ms2ger reads WebRTC
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# [14:31] <Ms2ger> <p><b>400.</b> <ins>Thats an error.</ins>
# [14:31] <Ms2ger> <p>Your client has issued a malformed or illegal request. <ins>Thats all we know.</ins>
# [14:31] <Ms2ger> ins, eh, Google
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# [14:37] <zcorpan> it's more semantic than <u>
# [14:38] <zcorpan> <ins>That's all I know.</ins>
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# [14:39] <zcorpan> not you also :-(
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# [14:45] <Ms2ger> O hey, addHitRegion in Gecko
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# [15:24] <GPHemsley> Google loves <ins>
# [15:24] <GPHemsley> they use it everywhere
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# [18:51] * SamB wonders how to cite http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/interact/forms.html ...
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# [18:52] <gsnedders> Cite HTML4 as a technical report or standard (depending on your citation style), and then reference the Forms section.
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# [19:53] <Hixie> taijeen: i think something's broken with your internet connection.
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# [20:06] <Hixie> whatever happened to the thing about how <br> shouldn't be styleable?
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# [20:09] <Hixie> oh there it is
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# [20:15] <jcgregorio> W3C BNF question: are BNF rules 'first match wins'?
# [20:15] <Hixie> probably depends on the spec that uses it
# [20:15] <Hixie> which spec?
# [20:15] <jcgregorio> in particular: http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG/paths.html#PathDataBNF
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# [20:16] <Hixie> do you have a case that's otherwise ambiguous?
# [20:16] <jcgregorio> the rule for nonnegative-number looks like it would never match a float
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# [20:16] <jcgregorio> because it would pick out the leading int part first
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# [20:16] <Hixie> i would imagine it's "if you can match then it's valid", that's all. i mean, BNF can't describe parsing behaviour, so it doesn't really matter which matches first.
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# [20:17] <Hixie> you just try them each in turn.
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# [20:17] <jcgregorio> yeah, building a parser for that and I had to rearrange that rufloating-point-constant before integer-constant to get it to workle to put
# [20:18] <jcgregorio> wasn't sure if it was a bug in the parser generator, or the BNF
# [20:18] <Hixie> well the bnf isn't describing how to parse
# [20:18] <Hixie> i assume they have another spec somewhere that describes how you parse
# [20:18] <Hixie> oh, maybe not. weird.
# [20:19] <Hixie> wow this really is their parsing spec?
# [20:19] <jcgregorio> yeah, appears to be it
# [20:19] <Hixie> that shows an unfortunate lack of understanding about what BNF does
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# [20:19] <Hixie> there's a paragraph after the BNF that implies that this is indeed how you parse it, though
# [20:19] <jcgregorio> I also had to flip the order for 'number'
# [20:20] <jamesr__> #lolsvg
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# [20:20] <Hixie> this can't possibly be the parsing spec
# [20:20] <Hixie> it doesn't say how to interpret the rules even if they do match
# [20:21] <jamesr__> Hixie: but it says "W3C Recommendation" right on the side
# [20:21] <Hixie> now you're just trolling me :-P
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# [20:22] <Hixie> jcgregorio: i'd try to see if there's a more recent svg spec that defines this better
# [20:22] <jamesr__> svg2 is identical
# [20:22] <jamesr__> as of feb 14th 2014 WD
# [20:23] <jamesr__> sorry, feb 11
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# [20:23] <Hixie> ok then.... jcgregorio: ...i'd file a bug saying "the spec doesn't actually define how to parse this".
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# [20:24] <jamesr__> Hixie: i'm mostly amused at your surprise at how bad this is
# [20:26] <Hixie> i don't understand how we can still be writing bad specs after all this time
# [20:26] <Hixie> i mean, CSS 2.1 started what, 15 years ago?
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# [20:26] <jcgregorio> Hixie: will do... actually, where do I file such a bug?
# [20:26] <Hixie> jcgregorio: no idea. there should be a link at the top of the spec if there isn't an inline one making it trivial.
# [20:27] <Hixie> jcgregorio: (most modern specs have scripts that make filing bugs trivial... try selecting text and see if a link to file a bug appears in the bottom left)
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# [20:39] <jcgregorio> "modern specs" you keep using that word...
# [20:40] <jcgregorio> Hixie: no such luck with the highlighting, did find their bug tracker, filed as:
# [20:40] <jcgregorio> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=24769
# [20:40] <jcgregorio> not sure if you want to add anything to that
# [20:40] <SimonSapin> jcgregorio: I don’t know about SVG, but the tokenizer in CSS 2.1 is "longest match wins"
# [20:42] <jcgregorio> SimonSapin: yeah, and ABNF is longest match wins but only for rules grouped in (), but there's no guidance in the SVG spec that I could find
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# [20:45] <SteveF> hixie: re your recent additions to the aria mapping table http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2014Feb/thread.html#msg91 thread may be of interest if you want the whatwg spec to reflect implementation reality
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# [20:48] <Hixie> SteveF: yeah, i agree with alex's comment. unfortunately the ARIA spec doesn't, so... I'm just trying to match the ARIA spec.
# [20:49] <SteveF> Hixie: your call
# [20:50] <Hixie> SteveF: btw, do you think it makes sense to take the ARIA mappings for HTML entirely out of the HTML/HTML5 specs? I know you're maintaining that other doc, which is more detailed already... seems like it'd be better to just have this in one place.
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# [20:57] <SteveF> hixie: maybe there are plans to create an acc implementation guide encompassing aria/html/svg see http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2014Jan/0018.html for details
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# [21:03] <Hixie> SteveF: what's an "implementation guide"?
# [21:07] <SteveF> Hixie: its the term used to refer to the spec that tells implementers how to implement stuff, for example WAI-ARIA 1.0 User Agent Implementation Guide http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-implementation/ (apologies for the tr url)
# [21:07] <Hixie> as opposed to specs that... do what?
# [21:08] <Hixie> not tell implementors how to implement stuff?
# [21:09] <SteveF> hixie: so yeah its another term for specification I didn't decide the name
# [21:10] <Hixie> yeah i don't really understand what the WAI-ARIA 1.0 User Agent Implementation Guide is about
# [21:11] <Hixie> it vaguely looks like a spec, but it seems to not invent anything new, it's like it's trying to patch another spec or something
# [21:11] <Hixie> its normative status doesn't make much sense to me
# [21:11] <Hixie> what i was suggesting wasn't something like that. i meant more something like fetch.spec.whatwg.org, a spec that defines its own thing, owns it, and is referenced by other specs normatively.
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# [21:12] <Hixie> so, in this case, it would just be a spec that defines the default mapping of HTML elements to ARIA.
# [21:13] <SteveF> who is the intended audience
# [21:13] <Hixie> browser vendors
# [21:14] <SteveF> suggest you ask the people who work on implementing acc in browsers, they are the ones who see use the aria implementation guide (for example)
# [21:15] <Hixie> the implementation guide seems like a distraction to this discussion
# [21:15] <Hixie> right now we have the ARIA mappings in the HTML spec, right?
# [21:15] <SteveF> yes
# [21:16] <Hixie> i'm just saying, what do you think of maintaining a spec outside of HTML that has those, instead of putting it in HTML.
# [21:17] <SteveF> it sounds reasonable
# [21:17] <Hixie> k
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# [21:18] <Hixie> well if you decide to move the aria default mappings for html into its own spec, let me know. i'd be happy to move them out on the WHATWG side too and point to that spec.
# [21:18] <SteveF> OK will think on it
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# [21:20] <Hixie> k
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# [22:35] <Hixie> anyone with IE around?
# [22:35] <Hixie> if so, please paste the log from http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?saved=2837
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# [22:41] <miketaylr> Hixie: https://gist.github.com/anonymous/9144121
# [22:41] <miketaylr> (from IE11)
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# [23:01] <Hixie> miketaylr: thanks!
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# [23:47] <Hixie> miketaylr: you mind testing http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/2831 on IE? i'm trying to find out if either iframe in the "rendered view", or the iframe right at the bottom under the log, mentions HTTP_REFERER
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# [23:48] <miketaylr> Hixie: hang on, firing up VM
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# [23:50] <miketaylr> Hixie: the iframe on the right in the rendered view does, as well as the one below the log
# [23:50] <Hixie> thanks
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# [23:51] * heycam|away is now known as heycam
# [23:53] <heycam> jcgregorio, it should be match or not, as Hixie guessed
# [23:54] <heycam> jcgregorio, if the attribute value doesn't entirely match the grammar, then it's invalid and no path will be rendered
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# [23:59] <Hixie> heycam: the problem is right now there's nothing that says how to parse it.
# Session Close: Sat Feb 22 00:00:00 2014

The end :)